Ultimate Intrigue - Vigilante Playtest

[Extra Anchovies]

First playtest doc for Ultimate Intrigue is out (and available here (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9ete?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Ultimate-Intrigue-Playtest)). From the Paizo Blog: (http://paizo.com/paizo/blog/v5748dyo5lhmq?Ultimate-Intrigue-Vigilante-Playtest)


The streets of almost every large city are rife with corruption. Greedy merchants, cruel guards, and bloodthirsty gangs oppress the poor common folk and those who dare to stand up against them find themselves with the dagger in the back more often than not. That is where the vigilante comes in. With their true identity hidden behind a secret persona, the vigilante is unafraid to take the fight to the powerful. Of course, not all vigilantes fight for what is good and just. Some use their secret identity to commit acts of depravity, unburdened by guilt or consequence.

Due to release in early 2016, Ultimate Intrigue includes a new base class for the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game: the vigilante. By participating in this playtest, you can help us make this class a fun, vibrant part of the game.

Give the doc a look, and let's discuss what we think about it.

[Starbuck_II]

I say it is a beautiful creation.
Avenger: Captain America
Stalker: Batman
Warlock

Vital Punishment boosts Attack of Opportunities nicely. Vital Strike AoO is useful (since can't full attack anyway).
a Vigilante (Avenger)/Monk would be awesome. Fist of the Avenger boost unarmed by adding a damage bonus.

The "sneak attack" of Stalker rewards acting like Batman (or 3.5 CV Ninja), but still works as a normal sneak attack (not sudden strike) though reduced if not using thematically. It sneak attacks like Unchained Rogue so only full concealment stops it.
Mention a few talents:
Perfect Vulnerability (8th lv talent) is 1/foe, but targeting touch AC is nice.
Surprise Strike talent: bonuses to hit when foe denied Dex to AC.
Twisting Fear: fear effects causes 1/2 sneak attack as well (foes don't scream just run).
Up Close and Personal: If "tumble" (acrobatics check) through opponent's space, free hit vs them.

Unlike rogue, so much reward for being thematic.

Warlock: casting talents. Can choose bombs, special Arcane Strike, elemental armor, mystic bolt (at will 1d6+1/lv elemental blasts; you can full attack with these)

Zealot: casting talents, channel energy talent, domain talent, etc

[squiggit]

It's a cool looking class. Way more interesting than most of the stuff Paizo tends to put out.

Perhaps too conservatively balanced though. It doesn't look bad, but it doesn't look really amazing either and it feels like there's better ways to accomplish its goals.

Also feel like it might be too niche, like the whole concept could just be a slayer archetype that trades something for dual identity.

[Karl Aegis]

"... he can task his friends to help cover for him by spreading false tales of his location and activities to others..."

Is this not an option if you don't have this class? Bounty hunters always go directly to your location, anyways. I don't get the point of this. Do most PCs just not have friends?

[9mm]

oh good lord, this is awful.

[Extra Anchovies]

oh good lord, this is awful.

Care to explain why you think so?

[PsyBomb]

The actual core of the class is based around a couple of things that are... let's be nice and say "not always present or obtainable". There are a ton of individual awesome ideas (Vital Punishment is a good example), and the class itself is playable. HOWEVER, I honestly believe it would have been better served by splitting into two core classes. It's trying too hard to be too many things, and only works if the GM lets them.

[Bhaakon]

This strikes me a useful NPC class, but to you need buy-in from your DM and group to get it to work as a PC class. Basically, you need to know up front that it's going to be an urban campaign and you're not leaving the city.

I also don't like that, by it's very existence, this class is codifying the mechanics of cultivating a secret identity in a way that makes its all but pointless for non-vigilantes. Specifically, saying that a vigilante's secret identity can't be outed with a simple knowledge(local) check means that any other character trying to lead a double life would be outed just that easily.

I don't know, this idea seems like something that should be tacked onto other classes via an archetype or a couple feats, not a whole class unto itself.

[Psyren]

IMO this should have been an Inquisitor archetype. Especially since it can just up and get the whole inquisitor list.

[Milo v3]

I'm not 100% sold on it, but it seems they handled the two identities better than I expected.


"... he can task his friends to help cover for him by spreading false tales of his location and activities to others..."

Is this not an option if you don't have this class? Bounty hunters always go directly to your location, anyways. I don't get the point of this. Do most PCs just not have friends?
You could, but it would only grant a -2 circumstance bonus rather than the classes ability.

[atemu1234]

I say it is a beautiful creation.
Avenger: Captain America
Stalker: Batman
Warlock

Vital Punishment boosts Attack of Opportunities nicely. Vital Strike AoO is useful (since can't full attack anyway).
a Vigilante (Avenger)/Monk would be awesome. Fist of the Avenger boost unarmed by adding a damage bonus.

The "sneak attack" of Stalker rewards acting like Batman (or 3.5 CV Ninja), but still works as a normal sneak attack (not sudden strike) though reduced if not using thematically. It sneak attacks like Unchained Rogue so only full concealment stops it.
Mention a few talents:
Perfect Vulnerability (8th lv talent) is 1/foe, but targeting touch AC is nice.
Surprise Strike talent: bonuses to hit when foe denied Dex to AC.
Twisting Fear: fear effects causes 1/2 sneak attack as well (foes don't scream just run).
Up Close and Personal: If "tumble" (acrobatics check) through opponent's space, free hit vs them.

Unlike rogue, so much reward for being thematic.

Warlock: casting talents. Can choose bombs, special Arcane Strike, elemental armor, mystic bolt (at will 1d6+1/lv elemental blasts; you can full attack with these)

Zealot: casting talents, channel energy talent, domain talent, etc

Clearly the Warlock is Scarlet Witch in one of her incarnations or another. Or the Green Lantern, if we stick to DC.

[Extra Anchovies]

Looking at the class some more, I think my least favorite thing about it is the core class features. I want to play one, not because I want to have two identities or get bonuses in certain communities but because I want all the cool stuff that the specializations have to offer. I'm hoping there's an archetype that kicks it to the curb in exchange for something else.

My other concern is that only Avenger and Warlock look particularly good. Stalker is a worse version of the Slayer or Rogue, and Zealot is just a worse Inquisitor.

Would be interesting to try a game with one Vigilante of each specialization, though.

[Othniel]

Interesting ideas there, for sure, and I look forward to testing it, particularly the Stalker and Warlock. The flavor here is great, but mechanically...I'm not so sure. Stalker seems awesome, but it probably doesn't stand up to the Unchained Rogue for damage. Looks like you need a strength build as well, unless you want to burn feats on weapon finesse and dex-to-damage feats. Unfortunate since so many of the important class skills (stealth, sleight of hand, acrobatics, disable device, etc.) are dex-based. On top of that, it's a part-social class, so you need decent charisma. And a bit of intelligence for points to put in all those skills (not so bad if you use background skills, I suppose).

Seconding the idea of a great NPC class (particularly for villains).

[Starbuck_II]

Looking at the class some more, I think my least favorite thing about it is the core class features. I want to play one, not because I want to have two identities or get bonuses in certain communities but because I want all the cool stuff that the specializations have to offer. I'm hoping there's an archetype that kicks it to the curb in exchange for something else.

My other concern is that only Avenger and Warlock look particularly good. Stalker is a worse version of the Slayer or Rogue, and Zealot is just a worse Inquisitor.

Would be interesting to try a game with one Vigilante of each specialization, though.

Instead of avengers assemble: Vigilantes Assemble!
Hulk: Avenger Vigilante! (Think remember, you never see Banner fight, he is never around when this Hulk guy appears) Likely multiclass into Bloodrager or Barbarian.
Captain: Avenger Vigilante (Not sure who he is when not fighting though)
Thor: Zealot Vigilante (Likely multiclassing with something else + awesome hammer)
Widow and Hawkeye: Stalker vigilantes (Hawkeye focuses on special arrows, while she uses stealth and unseen strikes but both are stalkers)
Iron Man? He is the hard one to pin down. I guess Warlock works. His suits blasters are mystic bolt? He buffs his AC with spells like Mage armor. He has concealed casting so no one knows he is actually casting. They truly believe he is just an inventor and the suit is magical.

But the rest fit.

Captain and Hulk (the two mutants of the team: seriously both have had chemicals pumped into them if you know their origins) as well as Widow and Hawkeye (the two truly mundanes of the team) are different takes on same class.

Cap and Hulk fight primarily with fists (or gauntlets) though Cap uses guns at time.

Almost makes want to do another RHoD recruitment where each player must be part Vigilante (full or multiclassed)
Made Scourge of Howling Horde module recruitment: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?423082-(PF)-Scourge-of-Howling-Horde-(Ultimate-Intrigue-playtest)&p=19428883#post19428883

[Milo v3]

According to Mark Seifer, there will be universal set of talents which will be focused on the social identity, but it is not part of the playtest because many of the talents involve content from the book that isn't part of the playtest.

[Bhaakon]

Almost makes want to do another RHoD recruitment where each player must be part Vigilante (full or multiclassed)

Seems like more of a CotCT thing to me.

[Extra Anchovies]

Seems like more of a CotCT thing to me.

Yeah, Vigilante would be great in that AP (Curse of the Crimson Throne, for those who don't know the abbreviation). Also maybe for Kingmaker (they'd make great Spymasters).

[Sayt]

I like the avenger quite a lot. It's talents just seem pretty great?
*Mad Rush is basically pounce with a more reasonable AC penalty
* The Armour talents are shiny and let you leverage high skills+Heavy/medium armour.
*Living shield is entertaining, but an untyped CM check is not likely to succeed very often.
*Shield Fury gets you TWF without any hassle, and sets you up to take Shield Master (Which doesn't inherit Dex15 pre-req, it seems?)

[Susano-wo]

First impressions are that I am pleased. Looked through the Avenger archetype thoroughly, and thought it ha a lot going for it (and actually was struck by its batman-ness more than the stalker, though I may need to read the stalker abilities more thoroughly.

As far as Warlock and Zealot, I don't know if I like the classes overall, but I do like the idea of being able to buy as much magic power as you want, though I have a hard time thinking that many people will do anything less than level 6. (especially since its only available on one subtype, rather than being a general vigilante talent)

Oh, and as far as it only applying to certain campaigns, that might be true, but considering that its from a book called Ultimate Intrigue, I imagine is is geared for campaigns centered on that general subject, and its not necessarily a bad thing that it might not fit into all campaigns (though archetypes to make it more generally applicable would not be remiss.)

[Milo v3]

I do feel abit bad for the PFS players, since downtime doesn't really exist in PFS the class will probably have tonnes of it's abilities hacked off.

[Extra Anchovies]

As far as Warlock and Zealot, I don't know if I like the classes overall, but I do like the idea of being able to buy as much magic power as you want, though I have a hard time thinking that many people will do anything less than level 6. (especially since its only available on one subtype, rather than being a general vigilante talent)

Eh. I'm not super impressed with the casters (especially not Zealot, who's an Inquisitor but worse) in their current state, but they have potential. I've suggested over on the Paizo boards that they should automatically give up five of their talents and in exchange get normal-progression 6ths-casting, with the normal 5/5/5/5/5/5 spells per day (or at least 4/4/4/4/4/4) instead of the weird, weaksauce 4/3/3/3/2/1.

[Milo v3]

Eh. I'm not super impressed with the casters (especially not Zealot, who's an Inquisitor but worse) in their current state, but they have potential. I've suggested over on the Paizo boards that they should automatically give up five of their talents and in exchange get normal-progression 6ths-casting, with the normal 5/5/5/5/5/5 spells per day (or at least 4/4/4/4/4/4) instead of the weird, weaksauce 4/3/3/3/2/1.

I'd prefer they modified the spell specialists, but don't want to automatically make them use their talents on spell casting.

[Susano-wo]

Its fine if they get less talents 'using' them to get half-casting (though yeah, a normal progression would probably be better than the way they did it), as long as it ends up not less powerful than the other subtypes.

I do find the amount of variety in the class to be an interesting design concept (Its not every day you se a class that has Front-liner, Rogue, Arcane caster, and divine caster alternates built into the class), and I hope they play with that some more.

[squiggit]

I'm not a fan of the MAD on Warlock. Baseline vigilante stuff runs off Cha but warlock features run off Int, which spreads you pretty thin.

[Eldaran]

Eh. I'm not super impressed with the casters (especially not Zealot, who's an Inquisitor but worse) in their current state, but they have potential. I've suggested over on the Paizo boards that they should automatically give up five of their talents and in exchange get normal-progression 6ths-casting, with the normal 5/5/5/5/5/5 spells per day (or at least 4/4/4/4/4/4) instead of the weird, weaksauce 4/3/3/3/2/1.

Yeah, it doesn't really make sense. If you compare a Zealot to an Inquisitor or a Warlock to a Magus there's no reason not to give them the normal casting progression.

I like the class, but I think the community size limits for renown are too small. You never even gain the ability to influence a metropolis, and until 9th level you're only influencing 200 people, that's a ridiculously small community size.

[Milo v3]

I like the class, but I think the community size limits for renown are too small. You never even gain the ability to influence a metropolis, and until 9th level you're only influencing 200 people, that's a ridiculously small community size.

Depends on the size of the city:

This bonus applies only while he is within a number of miles equal to his vigilante level from the community in which he has gained renown.

Though that only applies to the vigilante part of the renown ability.

[Othniel]

I also would've preferred something using the Warlock name to be more like the 3.5 Warlock.

Edit: In other words, use a different name for this type of Vigilante, and come out with an actual separate Warlock class later.

[Milo v3]

I also would've preferred something using the Warlock name to be more like the 3.5 Warlock.

Paizo would likely never do that simply because of warlock not being OGL. Though, there is a warlock-like class in pathfinder now(ish).

[Mehangel]

After reading the class here are some things that I would like changed:

Combine all the Vigilante Talents into one list that any of the specializations can choose from. Or perhaps include a feat (that can be taken multiple times) that allows the vigilante to pick talents from an additional specialization.

Add a talent that grants a bonus metamagic/item creation feat.

Change the 'Rogue Talent' Vigilante Talent to include the ability to select the talent multiple times.

[The Glyphstone]

I kinda like the idea of a Demoralize/Fear-based Stalker build with Twisted Fear, using Bullying Blow/Dazzling Display to deal lots of nonlethal damage to a target or multiple targets. Probably a 2-level dip into Viking Fighter for the Demoralize as a Move Action, Orc/Half-Orc for Bullying Blow, then just max Intimidate checks.

[Ssalarn]

Paizo would likely never do that simply because of warlock not being OGL. Though, there is a warlock-like class in pathfinder now(ish).


This. If Pathfinder put out a class called the Warlock that actually looked like the 3.5 Warlock, Hasbro would sue the pants off them so fast we'd still be wondering what happened when they finished boarding up the windows at Paizo HQ.

[Extra Anchovies]

I'm not a fan of the MAD on Warlock. Baseline vigilante stuff runs off Cha but warlock features run off Int, which spreads you pretty thin.

Eh. The only Cha-based stuff is frightening appearance and stunning appearance. Also if we complain they'll probably switch the casting to Cha, which I do not want.


Yeah, it doesn't really make sense. If you compare a Zealot to an Inquisitor or a Warlock to a Magus there's no reason not to give them the normal casting progression.

Agreed.


I like the class, but I think the community size limits for renown are too small. You never even gain the ability to influence a metropolis, and until 9th level you're only influencing 200 people, that's a ridiculously small community size.

Indeed. They need to be larger and scale more evenly.


Paizo would likely never do that simply because of warlock not being OGL. Though, there is a warlock-like class in pathfinder now(ish).

Yeah, the Kineticist. I'm kind of worried about where that class will fall, because the elemental-based fluff locks them out of a lot of utility options unless the devs get really creative.

[Othniel]

This. If Pathfinder put out a class called the Warlock that actually looked like the 3.5 Warlock, Hasbro would sue the pants off them so fast we'd still be wondering what happened when they finished boarding up the windows at Paizo HQ.

Huh, I'd ask more about this, but I don't want to change the subject. So, I'll just say: "Fascinating." (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W6MkESn1v1w)

After re-reading the Mystic Bolt talent, I suppose that might be enough flavor in there to give the Vigilante Warlock at least some semblance of appearing like the old 3.5 version. Would be nice to be able to upgrade the damage on this a little more though (with another talent or feat).


Eh. The only Cha-based stuff is frightening appearance and stunning appearance. Also if we complain they'll probably switch the casting to Cha, which I do not want.

Maybe hint that the cha-based stuff should be switched to int-based instead. :smallwink: I'd love to have an int-based caster that starts at 6 + int skill points, but I have a nagging feeling that they'll switch it to cha anyway.

[Extra Anchovies]

After re-reading the Mystic Bolt talent, I suppose that might be enough flavor in there to give the Vigilante Warlock at least some semblance of appearing like the old 3.5 version. Would be nice to be able to upgrade the damage on this a little more though (with another talent or feat).

There's been some talk on the Paizo forums of TWFing with a conductive weapon and mystic bolt. It is talk that I very much approve of. Mystic Bolt is awesome, and my only issue with it is that it isn't available at level 2.

[Starbuck_II]

There's been some talk on the Paizo forums of TWFing with a conductive weapon and mystic bolt. It is talk that I very much approve of. Mystic Bolt is awesome, and my only issue with it is that it isn't available at level 2.

True. And the awesome part it is both melee/ranged.

Lowering the level would help boost the class. As is, they have less casting/per day than any other class.
On another note:
They really should offer a talent at 1st though. 1st level appears to be tiny bit bland (except Stalker gets sneak attack).

[Extra Anchovies]

They really should offer a talent at 1st though. 1st level appears to be tiny bit bland (except Stalker gets sneak attack).

Yeah, the vigilante follows the standard Paizo formula of "only good at level 2, at the earliest". There are a lot of those classes :smallyuk:

[Milo v3]

Meh, first level's for NPC's anyway.

[atemu1234]

Meh, first level's for NPC's anyway.

My current party started at one, but only one of the players is the same one, not running the same character.

[NamelessNPC]

There's been some talk on the Paizo forums of TWFing with a conductive weapon and mystic bolt. It is talk that I very much approve of. Mystic Bolt is awesome, and my only issue with it is that it isn't available at level 2.

It was me, I'm blueskier on the paizo forum. I'm trying to make it work, but the lack of attack boni makes me think the conductive weapon will miss a lot. So far the best I've got is picking Wayang as your race (with the Dissolution's child alt racial trait) and/or taking Minor Spell Expertise (vanish) in order to maximize your invisibilities per day. A wand will probably work better, though, but I rather not depend on items that much.

[Milo v3]

And people on paizoboards are already complaining about avenger being able to get nearly as many bonus feats as a fighter... but able to do social stuff as well. :smallsigh:

Some are even saying that perfect fall is too strong. :smalleek:

[PsyBomb]

Perfect Fall is 1/target/day. The Vigilante has no ability to capitalize on that one strike, unfortunately. Only really unique thing I've found with them actually goes best when multiclassing into DSP's stuff

(That being the AoO Vital Strike, which goes awesome on a Zweihander Sentinel Warder)

[Extra Anchovies]

Perfect Fall is 1/target/day. The Vigilante has no ability to capitalize on that one strike, unfortunately. Only really unique thing I've found with them actually goes best when multiclassing into DSP's stuff

(That being the AoO Vital Strike, which goes awesome on a Zweihander Sentinel Warder)

Oooh, yeah, that's a good idea. AoO vital strike is one of the best things this class has, and gives me a bit of hope that maybe they'll eventually allow it and/or cleave on charges/spring attacks.

Also, PsyBomb, I'm waiting for you to act in RoM D;

[Milo v3]

Perfect Fall is 1/target/day. The Vigilante has no ability to capitalize on that one strike, unfortunately.

What? Perfect fall is the thing that stops fall damage.

[PsyBomb]

Oooh, yeah, that's a good idea. AoO vital strike is one of the best things this class has, and gives me a bit of hope that maybe they'll eventually allow it and/or cleave on charges/spring attacks.

Also, PsyBomb, I'm waiting for you to act in RoM D;

Thought I did? I'll go check in a minute or two, my connection's been crappy recently.

And sorry Milo, I was thinking about Perfect Vulnerability.

[Roog]

Vigilante is a terrible concept for a base class, both mechanically and thematically.

The need for 4 different vigilante specializations - which effectively make it four different base classes - illustrates how poor a fit the vigilante is as a base class for d20.

I don't see why a specific mechanical feature is needed to represent the masked vigilante, but if a mechanical feature was needed it would be far better to make the class into a single feat. The feat could give the bonuses from dual identity + quick change etc. Anything else should be available to any PC - there is no reason for any PC to be excluded from having renown or from acquiring some loyal allies.

[Anlashok]

Don't think I've ever heard someone argue that flexibility and options were indicative of bad design before.

[Roog]

If you need to write what amounts to four classes in order to adequately represent your concept as a base class, then the concept is probably not appropriate to be a base class.
A prestige class with feature progression like the Evangelist would be a better fit - as would a feat.

On Flexibility:
More flexibility is not always a good thing. There is a reason that D&D/PF is a class based system, not a point based one - the level of flexibility is a specific design choice.
The Vigilante might be flexible by itself - but the way it is written makes other options less flexible. The Vigilante class makes it more difficult for an existing character to become a masked vigilante type, because writing a class feature that says that Vigilantes can do X makes implies that other characters who do not have that class feature cannot do X.


On Options:
Useless options are bad design - do you think that the "option" to pick the original Prone Shooter feat is good design?

[Milo v3]

The Vigilante might be flexible by itself - but the way it is written makes other options less flexible. The Vigilante class makes it more difficult for an existing character to become a masked vigilante type, because writing a class feature that says that Vigilantes can do X makes implies that other characters who do not have that class feature cannot do X.

I disagree. The only thing that the other classes can't do at all is the protection from divination in your other identities, you can still be having multiple identities without this class but it requires more work such as putting many ranks in disguise or long duration magic.

[Roog]

I disagree. The only thing that the other classes can't do at all is the protection from divination in your other identities, you can still be having multiple identities without this class but it requires more work such as putting many ranks in disguise or long duration magic.

Here are a couple of Vigilante abilities that imply other classes can't do something similar without an ability that specifically states they can do these things.

Dual Identity (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a vigilante learns
to hide his true identity, allowing him to move about
social circles and nobility without carrying the stigma of
being a ruthless vigilante. In effect, the vigilante has two
identities: one is a polite member of society while the other
is a skilled and cunning warrior. To keep up this charade,
the vigilante usually has two names, his true name used
in polite company and his vigilante name used to strike
fear in those who oppose him. Knowledge checks about
one do not reveal information about the other, unless the
vigilante has been captured and his identity revealed to
the world at large.
[...]

Renown: [...] While he is in his social identity, a vigilante can spend 1
week gaining renown among the locals of any community
of no more than about 200 individuals (a village if using
settlement statistics). This could be the entire community
or a smaller neighborhood in a larger settlement. He must
spend at least 4 hours each day socializing and making
contacts. After spending 1 week, whenever he is in his
social identity, all NPCs treat their starting attitude toward
him as one category better, as long as their initial attitude
would have at least been indifferent (see the Diplomacy
skills on pages 93–94 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
[...]

[Milo v3]

Here are a couple of Vigilante abilities that imply other classes can't do something similar without an ability that specifically states they can do these things.

Dual Identity (Ex): Starting at 1st level, a vigilante learns
to hide his true identity, allowing him to move about
social circles and nobility without carrying the stigma of
being a ruthless vigilante. In effect, the vigilante has two
identities: one is a polite member of society while the other
is a skilled and cunning warrior. To keep up this charade,
the vigilante usually has two names, his true name used
in polite company and his vigilante name used to strike
fear in those who oppose him. Knowledge checks about
one do not reveal information about the other, unless the
vigilante has been captured and his identity revealed to
the world at large.
[...]

So, one line in the whole causes implications for other classes.


Renown: [...] While he is in his social identity, a vigilante can spend 1
week gaining renown among the locals of any community
of no more than about 200 individuals (a village if using
settlement statistics). This could be the entire community
or a smaller neighborhood in a larger settlement. He must
spend at least 4 hours each day socializing and making
contacts. After spending 1 week, whenever he is in his
social identity, all NPCs treat their starting attitude toward
him as one category better, as long as their initial attitude
would have at least been indifferent (see the Diplomacy
skills on pages 93–94 of the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook).
[...]
Other characters could get renown, but it wouldn't grant the same effect. It would create a +2 circumstance bonus, but that's all. This ability basically just allows you to do it without having to deal with checks and gets a better result than other classes attempting it.... which is good, since it's the whole classes thing.

[Extra Anchovies]

The thing is, other characters can have dual identities and gain renown - but the exact effects of those are up to the DM whereas the Vigilante gets guaranteed specific mechanical benefits from both of those.

[Roog]

Why does that make it worth while writing as a class?

[Milo v3]

Why does that make it worth while writing as a class?

You could say that about most classes.

[khadgar567]

Why does that make it worth while writing as a class?
lets say you are rouge with 10 cha when you make just 1 level dip you gain +20 on your disguise check so from average cut purse to Arsène Lupin type character with cost of one level and and few gold pieces to get a mask
as sight benefit you can work with sheriff of Nottingham as co worker while acting robin hood on his back without him noticing muhahaaaaha!

[Roog]

You could say that about most classes.

Yes you could - and if the designers are doing their job then the question would have a good answer.

[Milo v3]

Yes you could - and if the designers are doing their job then the question would have a good answer.

The answer is that it does it's niche better than other classes. That's all it needs to justify it's existence. It makes playing certain concepts easier. There is no reason to be rude about the designers, just because you don't like some of the works they have created.

[Roog]

I don't recall being rude about them. If you took "if the designers are doing their job then the question would have a good answer" as being rude about them, then that's not what I intended. Its a general statement about creating classes. If the question of what makes the class worth while writing does not have a sufficiently good answer then you should avoid adding pointless bloat and go back to the drawing board.

So, what's the classes niche - and how does it fill it better than other potential game mechanics?

[Milo v3]

I don't recall being rude about them. If you took "if the designers are doing their job then the question would have a good answer" as being rude about them, then that's not what I intended. Its a general statement about creating classes. If the question of what makes the class worth while writing does not have a sufficiently good answer then you should avoid adding pointless bloat and go back to the drawing board.

So, what's the classes niche - and how does it fill it better than other potential game mechanics?

Playing as a character with two separate identities. With divination magic and needing to manage both combat and social abilities make it abit difficult.

[Roog]

That potentially only answers half the question - what is this mechanic attempting to add that game.
The second half of the question is why should the mechanic to add this to the game a be class?

[Milo v3]

That potentially only answers half the question - what is this mechanic attempting to add that game.
The second half of the question is why should the mechanic to add this to the game a be class?

It could theoretically be made as an archetype... for every single class. That would make tonnes of archetypes that just give the exact same abilities with the exact same flavour, which is very very very very boring and takes up a tonne of page space.

By it being a class, they can make the vigilante class, and have specializations and archetypes expand it to fill the roles of other classes much more efficiently.

A prestige class is not an option, since paizo doesn't make prestige classes anymore (which I think is a good thing).

[Roog]

It could theoretically be made as an archetype... for every single class. That would make tonnes of archetypes that just give the exact same abilities with the exact same flavour, which is very very very very boring and takes up a tonne of page space.

If only there was some other character customization mechanic that was available to all classes...



By it being a class, they can make the vigilante class, and have specializations and archetypes expand it to fill the roles of other classes much more efficiently.

By making it a base class it also makes it effectively unavailable to every class that relies on increasing their existing class features (i.e. spellcasters).



A prestige class is not an option, since paizo doesn't make prestige classes anymore (which I think is a good thing).

Really, when did this happen?

[Milo v3]

If only there was some other character customization mechanic that was available to all classes...
Well it's a bit big for a feat :smallconfused:


By making it a base class it also makes it effectively unavailable to every class that relies on increasing their existing class features (i.e. spellcasters).
Better than making every class an identical archetype.


Really, when did this happen?
It happened ages ago, the RPG line hasn't made PrC's since it's second book.

ION: While making my warlock, I've noticed these guys make really good magic thieves. Enough magic for the required tricks, but enough skill points and social abilities to let them be skilled and manipulate people. Also, conductive weapons are amazing for mystic bolt warlocks.

[Nyaa]

Dual Identity (Ex)
Any attempts to scry or otherwise locate the vigilante work only if the vigilante is currently in an identity known to the
creature attempting to locate him. If he is in an identity unknown to the creature, the spell or effect has no effect,
revealing nothing but darkness as if the target was invalid or did not exist.
Sounds legit.



Many Guises (Ex): At 9th level
Everyman (Su): At 19th level
I want to thank Dreamscarred Press for a psionic power with the same name that is available at level 3 and does much the same thing.

Also all these +20s.

Overall it looks like special snowflake DMPC class made with the sole purpose of not letting players off the rails. It should really be an expanded usage of Disguise skill. Or general usage of said skill.

[Elricaltovilla]

Perfect Fall is 1/target/day. The Vigilante has no ability to capitalize on that one strike, unfortunately. Only really unique thing I've found with them actually goes best when multiclassing into DSP's stuff

(That being the AoO Vital Strike, which goes awesome on a Zweihander Sentinel Warder)

Seize the Opportunity already lets you do this.

[PsyBomb]

Seize the Opportunity already lets you do this.

... I have no idea how I managed to miss that feat, especially when I was looking to see how I could make a Justice Daevic more deadly.

[Elricaltovilla]

... I have no idea how I managed to miss that feat, especially when I was looking to see how I could make a Justice Daevic more deadly.

It's ok. Everyone misses it :smallfrown:

Justice Daevic is probably my favorite Daevic setup. Vital Strike that doesn't suck!

[PsyBomb]

It's ok. Everyone misses it :smallfrown:

Justice Daevic is probably my favorite Daevic setup. Vital Strike that doesn't suck!

now to find a Reach weapon with a good damage die.

[Elricaltovilla]

now to find a Reach weapon with a good damage die.

Lucerne Hammer, Flying Blade (exotic) and Dwarven Longaxe (Exotic) are all 1d12, x3. Dwarven Longhammer (exotic) is 2d6 x3. Most non exotic reach weapons are 1d10.

I find it odd that dwarves make so many reach weapons that would require wide swing areas when they're so fond of fighting in tiny little tunnels.

[Roog]

Well it's a bit big for a feat :smallconfused:

Really? If the purpose of the class is to allow, as you say "Playing as a character with two separate identities", then creating a feat that does something along the lines of Dual Identity would fulfill that goal. And that wouldn't be too big for a feat.



It happened ages ago, the RPG line hasn't made PrC's since it's second book.

So that's before Paths of Prestige (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601254512/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1601254512&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwd20pfs-20)was published in 2012? I'm not sure if Paizo has published any prestige classes so far this year (its a bit hard to track that down), but they have definitely published them as recently as last year (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist).

[MukkTB]

Yeah it looks like the class deserves to exist. The core bit can be covered by a feat, but there is some other good stuff there. I'm seeing a lot of utility support for the playstyle as a whole.

[Thealtruistorc]

I find it odd that dwarves make so many reach weapons that would require wide swing areas when they're so fond of fighting in tiny little tunnels.

Me and my friends were arguing over that the other day (hence why I created a dwarven longpike in my exotic weapons worth taking). Dwarves fight underground, so they should be using weapons that are suited for tunnels and don't need much room to use. My best guess for the hammers is that the symbol sort of trumps the utility, and kobolds fight better in small tunnels anyways. As for axes, well, they must really, REALLY hate those trees.

[Milo v3]

So that's before Paths of Prestige (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601254512/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1601254512&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwd20pfs-20)was published in 2012? I'm not sure if Paizo has published any prestige classes so far this year (its a bit hard to track that down), but they have definitely published them as recently as last year (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist).

That's not the RPG line, that's the campaign setting line.

[grarrrg]

Me and my friends were arguing over that the other day (hence why I created a dwarven longpike in my exotic weapons worth taking). Dwarves fight underground, so they should be using weapons that are suited for tunnels and don't need much room to use. My best guess for the hammers is that the symbol sort of trumps the utility, and kobolds fight better in small tunnels anyways. As for axes, well, they must really, REALLY hate those trees.

The "axe" thing is based on PICK-axes, a good mining tool. Someone got carried away with the "axe" part.

Also, this (http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/magazine/article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/mc14b) may be relevant.

[Roog]

paizo doesn't make prestige classes anymore (which I think is a good thing).

So that's before Paths of Prestige (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1601254512/ref=as_li_qf_sp_asin_il_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=9325&creativeASIN=1601254512&linkCode=as2&tag=httpwwwd20pfs-20)was published in 2012? I'm not sure if Paizo has published any prestige classes so far this year (its a bit hard to track that down), but they have definitely published them as recently as last year (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/e-h/evangelist).

That's not the RPG line, that's the campaign setting line.
Are you aware who publishes the Pathfinder Campaign Setting?

[Milo v3]

Are you aware who publishes the Pathfinder Campaign Setting?

I clarified it to be the RPG line, sorry for the confusion.


It happened ages ago, the RPG line hasn't made PrC's since it's second book.

[Roog]

That does somewhat undermine your original point.

[Milo v3]

That does somewhat undermine your original point.

RPG line is the default state of the game as it is the setting neutral content of that forms the basis of the game, and it's Design Team do not make PrC's for the RPG Line, and have not done so since the second RPG line book of Advanced Players Guide.

Either way, Ultimate Intrigue is a RPG line book so prestige classes simply wont happen.

[Roog]

RPG line is the default state of the game as it is the setting neutral content of that forms the basis of the game, and it's Design Team do not make PrC's for the RPG Line, and have not done so since the second RPG line book of Advanced Players Guide.

Either way, Ultimate Intrigue is a RPG line book so prestige classes simply wont happen.

That doesn't make the idea to write this as a base class a good idea. The choice not to use a more appropriate mechanic doesn't become better the longer ago you made it.

That said, I'm not saying that this should be a prestige class.

Having looked at the class, it looks like many of the path (what ever they're called) abilities don't have a particularly strong connection with being a vigilante. Many of them could be nice to have as a regular melee combatant, and would not be thematically inappropriate. Unfortunately they will come with the dual identity baggage. So you will see characters who have dual identity powers, just because they want to fight like batman. If flexibility is a good thing, then you would get more real fexibility by making those types of powers into feats and rogue talents.

Vigilantism is a set of goals, and most base classes are a thematic set of tools and methods. It's the wrong type of concept for a base class - which is why the designers appear to have felt the need to basically shoehorn four classes into one, and still haven't managed to make the dual identity shtick available for all the characters who could reasonably want it.

[Extra Anchovies]

I agree with Roog here - the concept of dual identities isn't enough to build a full class around. It would work better as a set of archetypes (maybe a fighter gets it instead of armor training, and the wizard gives up their arcane bond and some of their bonus feats, and so on).

Stalker is basically a rehashed Rogue, and Zealot is a weaker Inquisitor. Avenger has some interesting stuff, though; Combining its talent list with that of the Stalker (and maybe combining or buffing a few talents) might make for a nice base class for the vigilante core features to be added to.

Warlock (incidentally the best specialization IMO) would be best as its own class, with an expanded list of talents, full 6th-level sor/wiz prepared casting (without the talent tax), and core class features that support its abilities better than the whole secret-identity thing. It would mean there was finally a 6ths-caster who uses the sor/wiz list; so far Cleric and Druid have 6ths-casting equivalents, but not Sorcerer/Wizard. Maybe there could be an archetype that gets hexes and casts from the witch list...

I might have to homebrew this at some point.

[Milo v3]

Since I agreed to do a 15th level warlock with living shadow playtest, he has revealed what the living shadow spell does:

You exchange the crude matter of your material body with the insubstantial essence of the Plane of Shadow, becoming a living shadow yourself. You are visible as an unattached shadow in bright light or normal light, but you gain total concealment in dim light or darkness. Against creatures with darkvision, you gain concealment rather than total concealment. Your shadow body is incorporeal for most purposes, though you can’t fly or pass through solid objects or creatures. However, you can move at your normal speed along any surface, including horizontal and vertical surfaces and liquids, and you are never slowed by difficult terrain. Your size doesn’t change. You can speak and cast spells and perform mental actions, but you have no physical substance and cannot manipulate objects or attack physically. You can deliver touch spells and effects as if making an incorporeal touch attack. Your equipment merges with your shadow body, so you can’t cast spells with a material component unless those spells are prepared with Eschew Materials.


Also, my first fight with the vigilante was pretty fun. Admittedly it was an easy fight CR wise and the enemy was a chain fighting rogue, so I had the advantage from the outset, but still.

[Sayt]

Lucerne Hammer, Flying Blade (exotic) and Dwarven Longaxe (Exotic) are all 1d12, x3. Dwarven Longhammer (exotic) is 2d6 x3. Most non exotic reach weapons are 1d10.

I find it odd that dwarves make so many reach weapons that would require wide swing areas when they're so fond of fighting in tiny little tunnels.

It's the deep downer/mountain dwarf split, probably.

[Starbuck_II]

Since I agreed to do a 15th level warlock with living shadow playtest, he has revealed what the living shadow spell does:


Also, my first fight with the vigilante was pretty fun. Admittedly it was an easy fight CR wise and the enemy was a chain fighting rogue, so I had the advantage from the outset, but still.

Living shadow is pretty cool. I like that you can still cast at foes. But no mystic bolt eh?

[Extra Anchovies]

Living shadow is pretty cool. I like that you can still cast at foes. But no mystic bolt eh?

The Living Shadow talent (not the effect Milo quoted, but the Vigilante talent) prevents casting, but Mystic Bolt is (Sp) so using it in shadow form is fair game.

[Ssalarn]

So I was talking about it here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sct9&page=3?What-would-you-like-to-see-in-Pathfinder-2nd#103), but the Vigilante really seems to be the Tome of Battle release for Pathfinder (in that they're breaking away from traditionally held design philosophies in a way that makes me believe this really is a major testing ground for a new edition). I know others have kind of brought up that they see it as possibly being such, but it really hit me today that if I were them, Unchained and the Vigilante are pretty much exactly how I'd test the waters for things I was considering in an edition change.

Commenting more directly on the class, I was looking at the Warlock build for the Vigilante and I'm not so sure they did a good job balancing the different options available. A familiar I can attack with (free scout!), a weapon I can summon and then spend a lot of talents to make useful, or a book of extra cantrips that I can spend a single talent on to get access to Rituals, making me a useful backup caster?

[Elricaltovilla]

So I was talking about it here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2sct9&page=3?What-would-you-like-to-see-in-Pathfinder-2nd#103), but the Vigilante really seems to be the Tome of Battle release for Pathfinder (in that they're breaking away from traditionally held design philosophies in a way that makes me believe this really is a major testing ground for a new edition). I know others have kind of brought up that they see it as possibly being such, but it really hit me today that if I were them, Unchained and the Vigilante are pretty much exactly how I'd test the waters for things I was considering in an edition change.

Commenting more directly on the class, I was looking at the Warlock build for the Vigilante and I'm not so sure they did a good job balancing the different options available. A familiar I can attack with (free scout!), a weapon I can summon and then spend a lot of talents to make useful, or a book of extra cantrips that I can spend a single talent on to get access to Rituals, making me a useful backup caster?

That's looking like a really depressing new edition then.

[Othniel]

Building a Zealot for a play by post test on here, and I've come to the conclusion that yes, it would probably be better as a new archetype for the Inquisitor.

[Milo v3]

Know Direction has had an interview with Jason about the vigilante, that can be watched here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eeR0gzJbjzY).

It gives me faith with the playtest, they obviously are reading a lot of the playtest discussion, even if Mark is the one that is posting most actively, since they discuss some of the issues that have been brought up in the class and some of the solutions that have been discussed as well. Like possibly not losing your casting when your in your social identity, being able to use talents in your social identity but with the risk of exposure, being able to select talents from other specializations in the final version, there being an "amature vigilante" feat or feat line. Stuff like that.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Armature? What would that entail, armor? That actually sounds somewhat interesting.

[Milo v3]

Armature? What would that entail, armor? That actually sounds somewhat interesting.

Amature* WHITETEXT

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Ah, amateur. That sounds... significantly less interesting, but sounds to me like it picks up watered-down class features of other classes.

[Milo v3]

Ah, amateur. That sounds... significantly less interesting, but sounds to me like it picks up watered-down class features of other classes.

It'd be feats that allow members of other classes to have the dual identity thing, in the same way amateur gunslinger lets other people use grit and deeds.

[Extra Anchovies]

It'd be feats that allow members of other classes to have the dual identity thing, in the same way amateur gunslinger lets other people use grit and deeds.

Oh. Neat. So there's actually no reason for Zealot or Stalker to exist, then. Avenger at least has the whole "fighter with more skill points" thing going for it. Warlock's still the only good specialization, though :smalltongue:

Not that amateur vigilante is a bad idea. It's a good one. It just makes the Vigilante itself much less appealing.

[Starbuck_II]

stalker unique abilities to pilfer with that feat then: (some require sneak attack to be equal; to hidden)
expose weakness if they clarify needing the materials is fluff.
mighty ambush
leave an opening
perfect vulnerability
Silent dispatch: stealth while melee attacking (most people can't without sniping), only -5 penalty from combat.
Up close and personal