What is the worst weapon?

[No brains]

Of all the mundane weapons out there, what is the worst? What weapon is a perfect storm of never bothering to look at? This will probably be an exotic weapon that definitely isn't worth a feat, but it doesn't have to be. Consider all the useless bells and whistles a weapon has that don't really contribute to it. Also take into account the weight and damage type of a weapon, as those can make it unattractive too. A 20lb maul is not going to be in many first-level builds and piercing weapons have a bunch of monsters that punish you for fighting them with weapons of this type.

[Venger]

whip.

exotic, hard to use, it now requires skilltricks to even do indiana jones type stuff with it. its damage is trash, and if your opponent has any NA at all, it does nothing. plus it doesn't threaten.

[Platymus Pus]

The shield is the worst weapon.

[Agent 451]

Well, the worst in regards to the number of feats would be the sugliin. You need two feats to use it effectively.

[Telonius]

Elven Lightblade.
Spend an extra 30gp and a feat on exotic proficiency, to get a weapon that's practically identical to a Rapier. (1lb instead of 2lb - hey, that's a 50% reduction in weight! :smalltongue:)

[mabriss lethe]

The Sandblaster: OK, not exactly. It's actually a good weapon with a little op-fu. It's just that the designers had no idea how weapon proficiency works in 3.5.

First, it's classified as an exotic ranged weapon. Not surprising for a giant tube that blows sand at an opponent. However, it does not rely upon an attack roll. It deals out an untyped damage area attack that requires a reflex roll (DC modified by the constitution of the wielder.) and tacks on a rider debuff to those that fail the save. Aside from requiring a full round action to reload... That's all pretty spiffy. And it's also where the designers stopped looking at the rules. The penalty for nonproficiency is...drumroll please... -4 to attack rolls i.e. a penalty to the thing you don't have to make because it's an area attack. Unless you're going for very specific tricks, It is absolutely pointless to take EWP for it.

[The Viscount]

Sugliin. It deals more damage than most, but it requires an unrelated feat just to make iteratives, otherwise a full-round action.

[Venger]

The Sandblaster: OK, not exactly. It's actually a good weapon with a little op-fu. It's just that the designers had no idea how weapon proficiency works in 3.5.

First, it's classified as an exotic ranged weapon. Not surprising for a giant tube that blows sand at an opponent. However, it does not rely upon an attack roll. It deals out an untyped damage area attack that requires a reflex roll (DC modified by the constitution of the wielder.) and tacks on a rider debuff to those that fail the save. Aside from requiring a full round action to reload... That's all pretty spiffy. And it's also where the designers stopped looking at the rules. The penalty for nonproficiency is...drumroll please... -4 to attack rolls i.e. a penalty to the thing you don't have to make because it's an area attack. Unless you're going for very specific tricks, It is absolutely pointless to take EWP for it.

what's EWP? just dip master of masks or chameleon.

it's still a crummy weapon, but it has some novelty value. you blow sand at enemies through a giant bagpipe. that's hilarious.

[balegar]

Nunchaku, +2 to disarm checks. Yahoo! I only get a -2 when I can take a -4 and take the disarmed weapon.

I second the whip though.

[mabriss lethe]

what's EWP? just dip master of masks or chameleon.

it's still a crummy weapon, but it has some novelty value. you blow sand at enemies through a giant bagpipe. that's hilarious.

It's actually a weapon with a lot of potential. It already benefits from a number of ranged weapon feats. It's also a prime candidate for Master of Poisons. (hit everyone in range with Lotus Blossom Extract for fun and profit.) Also, by stacking damage enhancements between weapon and ammo and gleeful (ab)use of the aptitude property to cherry pick other useful feats for other weapons, (think Rapid Reload and Boomerang Daze) it can get downright nasty. On top of that, it winds up making feats like Superior Expertise worth a second look, since you can gain a huge dodge boost to AC without actually suffering the penalty for its use.

I've been toying with a fighter build that revolves around its use.... and it's surprisingly effective.

[Venger]

Nunchaku, +2 to disarm checks. Yahoo! I only get a -2 when I can take a -4 and take the disarmed weapon.

I second the whip though.

really like half the OA weapons could be on this list. many are just normal things that're arbitrarily exotic because of the different name.

can I put garrotte on here? I'm not sure if that'd count as a tool, but it's certainly weaponlike.

you can't make attacks with it, just try to choke a guy with it after provoking (without a way to mitigate), making a zillion checks, and then maybe dealing some nonlethal. so failing, is what I'm saying. plus it's exotic, of course.

[Gale]

I'm not sure if this counts, but Drowcraft weapons from Underdark are pretty worthless. Pay 1,800 gold pieces to the cost of your weapon to get a +2 Luck bonus on attacks and damage rolls, but only if you're near an earth node or aura of faerzress. Even in a campaign where the Underdark is relevant, this is not worth the cost in my opinion. I might even argue that even Flaming is better than this. Also the weapon has a chance to dissolve into nothingness if it's exposed to sunlight. Not cool.

[Venger]

It's actually a weapon with a lot of potential. It already benefits from a number of ranged weapon feats. Also, by stacking damage enhancements between weapon and ammo and gleeful (ab)use of the aptitude property to cherry pick other useful feats for other weapons, it can get downright nasty. I've been toying with a fighter build that revolves around its use.... and it's surprisingly effective.

interesting. love to see what that looks like.



I'm not sure if this counts, but Drowcraft weapons from Underdark are pretty worthless. Pay 1,800 gold pieces to the cost of your weapon to get a +2 Luck bonus on attacks and damage rolls, but only if you're near an earth node or aura of faerzress. Even in a campaign where the Underdark is relevant, this is not worth the cost in my opinion. I might even argue that even Flaming is better than this. Also the weapon has a chance to dissolve into nothingness if it's exposed to sunlight. Not cool.
certainly sounds like it belongs here to me. that's pretty disappointing.

I don't know much about nodes. fortunately they were largely excised from 3.5. I assume cutting one off a tree stump and gluing it to your sword was untenable because of Reasons.

[atemu1234]

I hate whips. I like Sandblasters, though.

[the_david]

The kusari gama in the DMG is awesome!
Unfortunately, that's just not how you use a Kusari Gama. No seriously, it's not! I'm not gonna let you dual wield kusari gamas! No, they are not light weapons, they are double weapons! No, you don't have reach with the kama part of the kusari gama, it's just the chain part that has reach. You use it to drag your opponent closer so you can get to attack him with your kama.

The worst part is that Pathfinder made their own version of the kusari gama and it still doesn't work like a real kusari gama.

[Curmudgeon]

Probably any improvised non-sharp thrown weapon of 11-25 lbs. (if you're Medium size). It's really hard to remove the -4 nonproficiency penalty; there's a further -2 range penalty for each 10' of distance; it takes a full-round action to throw it; and the damage for all of that effort is just 1d8 if you manage to hit.

[Venger]

The kusari gama in the DMG is awesome!
Unfortunately, that's just not how you use a Kusari Gama. No seriously, it's not! I'm not gonna let you dual wield kusari gamas! No, they are not light weapons, they are double weapons! No, you don't have reach with the kama part of the kusari gama, it's just the chain part that has reach. You use it to drag your opponent closer so you can get to attack him with your kama.

The worst part is that Pathfinder made their own version of the kusari gama and it still doesn't work like a real kusari gama.

yeah, kusari-gama's a great weapon.

huh? so... your houseruled version of a kusari-gama, which is heavily nerfed, is not a good weapon?

ok.

the DMG version of the kusari-gama isn't a light weapon, nor is it a double weapon. it's a 2-handed weapon (since it's keyed off the spiked chain)

if you want a more "realistic" kusari-gama, look at OA's, it does all the stuff you say you want to make it weaker. till a fairly solid weapon for an aoo tripper build though, far from the worst.

[Rhyltran]

yeah, kusari-gama's a great weapon.

huh? so... your houseruled version of a kusari-gama, which is heavily nerfed, is not a good weapon?

ok.

the DMG version of the kusari-gama isn't a light weapon, nor is it a double weapon. it's a 2-handed weapon (since it's keyed off the spiked chain)

if you want a more "realistic" kusari-gama, look at OA's, it does all the stuff you say you want to make it weaker. till a fairly solid weapon for an aoo tripper build though, far from the worst.

I don't think that's his house-ruled version. He's just saying how it was meant to be used in real life.

[Venger]

I don't think that's his house-ruled version. He's just saying how it was meant to be used in real life.

I had assumed it was houserules due to the mechanical terms he mentioned, but like I said, I'm not sure.

sure, I know how they work in real life (they don't) I wasn't trying o argue that, just clarifying that his objections about how it works are not factually correct.

[Curmudgeon]

the DMG version of the kusari-gama isn't a light weapon, nor is it a double weapon. it's a 2-handed weapon (since it's keyed off the spiked chain)
The kusari-gama is explicitly a light weapon with reach (Dungeon Master's Guide, page 145). It can be used like a spiked chain, but that doesn't put it into the same weapon categories.

[A Tad Insane]

While not the worse, I think the punch dagger (forgot its name) is pretty pointless outside of fluff, and even then. It's like a dagger, only x3, can't do slashing damage, and it isn't concealable. Just... what's the point?

[mabriss lethe]

I just remembered a great one: Stump Knives!

[Hrugner]

Bagh nakh, the nekode without a climbing bonus. exotic, 1d4 on 20 x2 piercing only. Even if you wanted claw weapons there's much better options.

[Andreaz]

The shield is the worst weapon.Both historical and gameplay evidence point otherwise, kind sir. Let's stick to bad weapons, shall we? THE WHIP!

[MesiDoomstalker]

How bout the Mecurial weapons? A penalty on your attack rolls even WITH Proficiency, for what? A die upgrade for your damage. Pitiful.

[Forrestfire]

Don't mercurial weapons have higher crit multipliers, or am I just misremembering?

EDIT: Yep. Mercurial Greatsword, 2d6/x4. Not much of an improvement over a scythe, very much not worth the feat.

[No brains]

Elven Lightblade.
Spend an extra 30gp and a feat on exotic proficiency, to get a weapon that's practically identical to a Rapier. (1lb instead of 2lb - hey, that's a 50% reduction in weight! :smalltongue:)

The ONE thing a lightblade gives that a rapier doesn't is that as an actually light weapon, so you don't have to drop your rapier in a grapple. That said, it still isn't worth a feat for a marginally better kukuri/ shortsword/ rapier.

There's also some argument that being included in the package deal you can get for being an elf and taking improved weapon familiarity counts for something.

[gooddragon1]

Echoing the whip. I don't know of any other weapon that does absolutely nothing if the target has natural armor of +3 or more, or wearing armor, or that's undead, or a construct.


A whip deals nonlethal damage. It deals no damage to any creature with an armor bonus of +1 or higher or a natural armor bonus of +3 or higher.

[Platymus Pus]

Both historical and gameplay evidence point otherwise, kind sir. Let's stick to bad weapons, shall we? THE WHIP!
Gameplay wise doesn't that take feats? It also gives horrible penalties for no reason. It's a non-weapon that gives penalties on weapons and is rather arbitrary in the limits it gives.
For instance no shield bash with buckler. Tower shield, you also can't bash with for some strange reason, gives a 50% chance to fail arcane casting, slows down movement if you can't fully handle the weight.
Historically a shield is used as a shield and main function isn't a weapon, but as protection for advancing armies and when you have things like magic going around it doesn't help much.

Same reason the gauntlet shouldn't be an amazing weapon, yet it's there.
You can make a weapon good though weapon enchants, it'll always be better than something like a shield as a weapon.
You throw sudden stunning onto a whip for a cheap price of 2000 gp onto any character with decent charisma and suddenly you're the ball of the party, whip can be good depending on how much you allow.
Gauntlet is probably the worst weapon I can think of.

[Elandris Kajar]

It's got to be either the Fukimi-Bari or the punching dagger.
Fukimi-Bari is from AEG and is a 5ft ranged weapon that deals 1 damage, is piercing, and cannot be poisoned if your DM has a brain. You can shoot three at once, but you cannot full attack. I think this is worst possible weapon.

[Platymus Pus]

It's got to be either the Fukimi-Bari or the punching dagger.
Fukimi-Bari is from AEG and is a 5ft ranged weapon that deals 1 damage, is piercing, and cannot be poisoned if your DM has a brain. You can shoot three at once, but you cannot full attack. I think this is worst possible weapon.

Looking into it, I'd say it probably is. It doesn't fill any roles at all like the whip could.
Is gauntlet the second worse though?

[Story]

Isn't the gauntlet useful for threatening squares while keeping your hands open?

[mabriss lethe]

Looking into it, I'd say it probably is. It doesn't fill any roles at all like the whip could.
Is gauntlet the second worse though?

The gauntlet has some niche uses going for it. It is treated as an unarmed attack, unlike the spiked gauntlet. That can be a good or a bad thing, depending on if you have any abilities that are keyed to an unarmed attack.

[ekarney]

I've been toying with a fighter build that revolves around its use.... and it's surprisingly effective.

I'd be curious to see this build


However, I'm going to vote for the sling.
No support for it t all outsite of one incredibly crummy PrC, also move action to reload.

You need the Aptitude enhancement just to get it to be half decent.

[Forrestfire]

Gauntlets are amazing because they don't look like a "weapon," but can be enchanted as such. +1 Eager gauntlets, +1 Warning gauntlets, Spellblade, Defending, that one "switch enhancement bonus to saves against spells" enchantment... Lots and lots of useful stuff to put on gauntlets.

Slings are useful at low levels when you need a backup weapon on someone with a good Strength score, thanks to getting bonus damage based on that. Beyond that, not great, but definitely not the worst weapon.

[SkipSandwich]

The Siangham, 1d6 20/x2 exotic weapon, at least the nunchaku gives a bonus to disarm and the kama can make trip attacks, but the siangham? Nothing. Honorable mention to the Light Repeating Crossbow as there is no reason you should ever choose to use one versus the repeating heavy crossbow.

[nedz]

However, I'm going to vote for the sling.
No support for it at all outside of one incredibly crummy PrC, also move action to reload.

I quite like the Sling

Cheap
Concealable
Add Str to damage
Hobbit bonus


I'm going to nominate the Light Flail. This can turn up in Random loot, and even be enchanted, unfortunately it has no stats.

[Venger]

While not the worse, I think the punch dagger (forgot its name) is pretty pointless outside of fluff, and even then. It's like a dagger, only x3, can't do slashing damage, and it isn't concealable. Just... what's the point?

it's called the katar in real life. its game name is "punching dagger." it is pretty unimpressive.


It's got to be either the Fukimi-Bari or the punching dagger.
Fukimi-Bari is from AEG and is a 5ft ranged weapon that deals 1 damage, is piercing, and cannot be poisoned if your DM has a brain. You can shoot three at once, but you cannot full attack. I think this is worst possible weapon.

wow never even heard of that one before. I still think garotte edges it out because at least you can attack with this one.

[ekarney]

I quite like the Sling

Cheap
Concealable
Add Str to damage
Hobbit bonus


I'm going to nominate the Light Flail. This can turn up in Random loot, and even be enchanted, unfortunately it has no stats.

The thing is though there's very little support for it featwise, don't get me wrong - I love the weapon, but without aptitude it's not really going to get you very far.

[kpumphre]

Fists a d3 and they get an aoo every time you attack.

[No brains]

Maybe not the WORST, but one weapon that was good for a lol is the Skikomi-zue. Gentlemen, BE-[expletive]-HOLD! A simple quarterstaff... that can turn into... a simple SPEAR! As an exotic weapon! That can't be thrown or set against a charge!

[Extra Anchovies]

Honorable mention to the Light Repeating Crossbow as there is no reason you should ever choose to use one versus the repeating heavy crossbow.

Especially since Rapid Reload does the same thing as EWP (LRC) without ever needing to reload the clip.

[Inevitability]

Ray of Frost and most other weaponlike spells, if they count.

[Venger]

Ray of Frost and most other weaponlike spells, if they count.

huh? they're a popular chassis for metamagic and precision damage. far from the worst

[mabriss lethe]

Ray of Frost and most other weaponlike spells, if they count.
But they can be used as a convenient carrier effect for a lot of stuff, though: sneak attack, fell drain, etc. Since most weaponlikes use touch attacks for delivery, they can be a easy way to convey those riders.

[roko10]

Fists a d3 and they get an aoo every time you attack.

Improved Unarmed Strike, and either Superior Unarmed Strike or Monk's Belt deal with that. It also has some use for reach-weaponusers, because they can threathen with them if they have Improved Unarmed strike

That being said, the Whip is definitively the worst weapon.

[nedz]

The thing is though there's very little support for it featwise, don't get me wrong - I love the weapon, but without aptitude it's not really going to get you very far.

Well it's mainly a low level thing but there ought to be a David v Goliath option, well Hobbit v Giant perhaps ?

[Venger]

Well it's mainly a low level thing but there ought to be a David v Goliath option, well Hobbit v Giant perhaps ?

like what? when you crit, stun someone? a bonus when used against people of a bigger size?

[Blackhawk748]

Heavy Mace, it is both more expensive, heavier and worse than a morning star.

Also Fukimi-Bara can deliver precision damage, and all three of the ones "fired" can do this. Yes its a terrible weapon but its an excellent assassination tool.

[Thurbane]

Two pages, no Bastard Sword?

It's a trap for new players. It looks great on paper (wow, 1d10 for a single handed weapon!), until you realize you've blown a feat for, on average, 1 extra point of damage.

Probably not the worst weapon out there, but definitely a trap.

[Sir Chuckles]

Fukimi-Bari count as ammunition, and, therefor, qualify for pricing shenanigans, so it more or less falls into the same realm as Shuriken.

[Rubik]

Fists a d3 and they get an aoo every time you attack.Yeah, and they can't even be enhanced via magic unless you're a monk.


Improved Unarmed Strike, and either Superior Unarmed Strike or Monk's Belt deal with that. It also has some use for reach-weaponusers, because they can threathen with them if they have Improved Unarmed strike

That being said, the Whip is definitively the worst weapon.Unarmed strikes have amazing optimization potential, but on their own, even as a monk, they're super-bleh, since even monks have to waste a feat on proficiency.

[Princess]

Punching Dagger, which is like a dagger but worse, or heavy mace, which is like a morning star but worse. Also, any exotic weapon that just bumps the damage die by one is just 1 point of damage for the cost of a feat.

At least whips and slings have some gimicky almost useful perks.

[Platymus Pus]

The Siangham, 1d6 20/x2 exotic weapon, at least the nunchaku gives a bonus to disarm and the kama can make trip attacks, but the siangham? Nothing. Honorable mention to the Light Repeating Crossbow as there is no reason you should ever choose to use one versus the repeating heavy crossbow.

Two weapon fighting with crossbows might be a reason, have the clips function as bags of holding for ammunition.
Though that's more useful for epic.

[Blackhawk748]

Two pages, no Bastard Sword?

It's a trap for new players. It looks great on paper (wow, 1d10 for a single handed weapon!), until you realize you've blown a feat for, on average, 1 extra point of damage.

Probably not the worst weapon out there, but definitely a trap.

Eh, you can do fun things with it with Exotic Weapon Master, also ive seen a few Dervish builds that use them. Niche uses for sure, and it is still a trap for new players, but they are decent when used properly.

[Mystral]

Of all the mundane weapons out there, what is the worst? What weapon is a perfect storm of never bothering to look at? This will probably be an exotic weapon that definitely isn't worth a feat, but it doesn't have to be. Consider all the useless bells and whistles a weapon has that don't really contribute to it. Also take into account the weight and damage type of a weapon, as those can make it unattractive too. A 20lb maul is not going to be in many first-level builds and piercing weapons have a bunch of monsters that punish you for fighting them with weapons of this type.

I'd say the Siangham. It's an exotic weapon that is basically a sickle, but with a worse damage type. No extra abilities.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I feel the need to defend some weapons that I'm utterly shocked to find even posted to this thread for worst weapon, when in fact they are quite good.

Shields: Aside from needing a feat to make it dual use (AC buff and a weapon) -- which is unfair to stigmatize it for given most weapons don't even offer that sort of option -- I really don't get this one. Base damage may suck, but shield spikes are easy to add, and with Bashing property as well, you have a 2d6 base damage 1H weapon (heavy shield) or 1d8 damage light weapon (light shield). The only downside is the 20/x2 crit and no special abilities like tripping or reach. On the other hand...there's so many amazing options if you invest in the style. Feats to trip and/or daze a foe struck by a charge, for example. Plus defensive options to protect allies like Wall of Steel teamwork benefit or Shield Block ToB maneuver.

Whip: Ok, so it can't do damage to most foes. It's still got the best reach of any weapon for medium or small characters and lets you trip and disarm with it, and all of that reach only requires one hand. You can always rely on a different weapon in your other hand or a spiked gauntlet to do hp damage, whip has plenty of tactical use. It costs a feat, that's the major knock...though Bard gets it for free.

Sling: How was this even mentioned? Do people never play below level 6? Yeah, you can't full attack with it. It's still a FREE ranged weapon pretty much everyone is proficient with that that adds strength to damage (again...for FREE...at low levels, that +100 gp per +1 str on a composite longbow is really painful, as is taking -2 to hit if you ever take so much as 1 str damage/penalty) and can be fired one-handed. Seriously, that's amazing. My warrior types with high strength love the darn things, I pick sling as their ranged backup over bow or crossbow many times due to its cost-free benefits. When you don't have multiple attacks anyway, the move action reload time doesn't matter. It's also a bludgeoning projectile weapon. There's tons of piercing and some slashing, but bludgeoning you're typically stuck with 10 ft increment thrown weapons or (if the rulebook is available) blunt arrows.

EDIT: Also, it's always been a mystery to me why 3E had Rapid Reload for crossbows but never allowed it for slings. PF actually gave fast reload options for slings (a feat AND a halfling variant racial feature, iirc), and I give them credit for finally doing that.

[badgerman]

StreamOfTheSky +1 :-)

Sling: Wasn't there the ability to increase the range of a splash weapon by firing it with a sling ?

Exotic Weapon Proficiency: EWP usually is a pain in the ass but it depends on the rules you are using. We are using the Weapon Group Variant from the Unearthed Arcana. Helps a lot.

Worst weapon for me: Greatsword. Not because of the stats, because this weapon has slain to many of my characters :smallfurious: I hate it.

[TheFurith]

My favorite weapon is also probably the most useless. The ramhammer.

I would have gone with whip. But duskblade, so no. At least there's something that thing is good for.

[Curmudgeon]

Sling: Wasn't there the ability to increase the range of a splash weapon by firing it with a sling ?
Not with a regular sling, I don't think. There are instead alchemical capsules which can be used with a sling (see Libris Mortis, page 73 or Arms and Equipment Guide, page 33) but those capsules do less damage than the full-size flasks (1d4 instead of 2d4 for holy water, and 1d4 instead of 1d6 for acid or alchemist's fire).

[SkipSandwich]

Not with a regular sling, I don't think. There are instead alchemical capsules which can be used with a sling (see Libris Mortis, page 73 or Arms and Equipment Guide, page 33) but those capsules do less damage than the full-size flasks (1d4 instead of 2d4 for holy water, and 1d4 instead of 1d6 for acid or alchemist's fire).

There was a exotic sling called a Gnomish Calculus or something in one of the splatbooks, Either Arms and Equipment or Races of Stone IIRC for throwing normal flasks of fire or acid. Not a bad weapon per se, especially if your DM rules that rider effects from enchantments also apply to targets hit by the splash damage, but otherwise too gimmicky to be worth the feat.

[Bucky]

(Pf based; may not also be true in 3.5)
Brass Knuckles seem to be straight-up worse than (spiked) gauntlets.
A hurlbat (ranged weapon that can be used in melee) is similar to a throwing axe (light weapon that can be thrown). Upside: can deal piercing damage. Downside: When you use it in melee, make a reflex save to avoid cutting yourself.
Tri-bladed katar: Exotic weapon that's functionally identical to a light pick. Except the light pick has a small amount of support from e.g. the Dwarven Swashbuckler favored class bonus.

[ericgrau]

whip.

exotic, hard to use, it now requires skilltricks to even do indiana jones type stuff with it. its damage is trash, and if your opponent has any NA at all, it does nothing. plus it doesn't threaten.
Trips and disarms (both weapons and objects) at range and bards get free proficiency. Most bard spells that have a save aren't that good, so I could see a con > str > dex > other bard including a whip in his array of tricks. Or even without str on a cha bard it's still an option. Due to the range you avoid attacks of opportunity so you may as well spend the 1 gp and have it as an option against foes with a poor modifier. Trip small guys (-4 size), nab spell component pouches (-4 object, poor BAB), etc. Foes might have counters, but those take weight or other resources so they might not.

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar. And fluffwise you'd have to tell me what the difference is because I forget. EDIT: I googled it... the fluff difference is about the same as the mechanical difference. Not sure what character concept would be dying to use a mace instead, especially since when I picture a mace what I actually picture is a morningstar.

A punching dagger is generally a hair worse than a dagger but at least it's better for coup de graces rather than always inferior.

[StreamOfTheSky]

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar. And fluffwise you'd have to tell me what the difference is because I forget. EDIT: I googled it... the fluff difference is about the same as the mechanical difference. Not sure what character concept would be dying to use a mace instead, especially since when I picture a mace what I actually picture is a morningstar.

Mace is metal throughout, morningstar is hafted. So I always assumed the "balance" was meant to be the latter is much easier to sunder. Which is not a good method of balancing them.

But yeah, I have never seen the point to the heavy mace, it's strictly worse. And to top it all off...the morningstar is one of the coolest-looking basic weapons there is, IMO. If they weren't numerically superior, I'd probably be trying to use the heavy mace stats and fluffing the look as if it were a morningstar anyway.

[paranoidbox]

I had to look up the Fukimi-Bari in the A&E because I was utterly confused by the things said about it here, and it's hilarious! You spit them, they're mouth-darts! :D That's brilliant in all of its stupidity. I can sort of see why they would include it in the weapon's list because... well, who wouldn't want to spit darts at an enemy? As far as I can tell they're not very historically accurate though, so that's silly. But I can just see a build with a Hollow Tooth of Holding filled with Fukimi-Bari and the Far Shot feat. Maybe the Splitting enchantment and the Rapid Shot feat should be involved, too? Hmmm.

As for my suggestion of the worst weapon, I would nominate the atlatl (Sandstorm).
It has the same damage and range increment as a sling, except that it has a x3 crit (alright, that's cool), but it's a martial weapon, not a simple one. If you have access to the martial weapons list, then you're not going to be choosing an atlatl. (I guess, as a plus, it benefits from high str, although it's not actually mentioned in the text so who knows. The reload time isn't mentioned either, but I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch to rule it like a sling since it's obviously been inspired by it.)
But the main fail of this weapon is its ammunition, the atlatl spear, which costs 1 gp AND weighs 2 lbs per spear. I don't think you can even use the spears in melee, because, again, it's not actually mentioned anywhere.
At least the atlatl has actually been used, historically speaking, so well done for that...? I guess?

[Curmudgeon]

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar.
I supposed if you wanted to avoid piercing damage (like the bygone Cleric "cannot shed blood" restriction) then a bludgeoning-only weapon would be a better choice. A monster healed by piercing (healthy aeration of the skin?) maybe, but I don't think that's an actual thing.

[Rubik]

I supposed if you wanted to avoid piercing damage (like the bygone Cleric "cannot shed blood" restriction) then a bludgeoning-only weapon would be a better choice. A monster healed by piercing (healthy aeration of the skin?) maybe, but I don't think that's an actual thing.Wasn't the clerical restriction because piercing and slashing weapons are considered inhumane?

Because bashing someone's skull in and crushing their bones to paste is so humanitarian.

[Venger]

Wasn't the clerical restriction because piercing and slashing weapons are considered inhumane?

Because bashing someone's skull in and crushing their bones to paste is so humanitarian.

no. it was a real historical thing. it was a way of rules lawyering around the "spill no blood" edict by not piercing your enemy's skin in order to kill him. it had nothing to do with being nice.

[mabriss lethe]

Not with a regular sling, I don't think. There are instead alchemical capsules which can be used with a sling (see Libris Mortis, page 73 or Arms and Equipment Guide, page 33) but those capsules do less damage than the full-size flasks (1d4 instead of 2d4 for holy water, and 1d4 instead of 1d6 for acid or alchemist's fire).

There's also the Gnome Calculus.

[Deadkitten]

I had to look up the Fukimi-Bari in the A&E because I was utterly confused by the things said about it here, and it's hilarious! You spit them, they're mouth-darts! :D That's brilliant in all of its stupidity. I can sort of see why they would include it in the weapon's list because... well, who wouldn't want to spit darts at an enemy? As far as I can tell they're not very historically accurate though, so that's silly. But I can just see a build with a Hollow Tooth of Holding filled with Fukimi-Bari and the Far Shot feat. Maybe the Splitting enchantment and the Rapid Shot feat should be involved, too? Hmmm.

As for my suggestion of the worst weapon, I would nominate the atlatl (Sandstorm).
It has the same damage and range increment as a sling, except that it has a x3 crit (alright, that's cool), but it's a martial weapon, not a simple one. If you have access to the martial weapons list, then you're not going to be choosing an atlatl. (I guess, as a plus, it benefits from high str, although it's not actually mentioned in the text so who knows. The reload time isn't mentioned either, but I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch to rule it like a sling since it's obviously been inspired by it.)
But the main fail of this weapon is its ammunition, the atlatl spear, which costs 1 gp AND weighs 2 lbs per spear. I don't think you can even use the spears in melee, because, again, it's not actually mentioned anywhere.
At least the atlatl has actually been used, historically speaking, so well done for that...? I guess?

It always bugged me that that atlatl was not a simple weapon. It was one of the first weapons human beings ever made for crying out loud...

[Venger]

It always bugged me that that atlatl was not a simple weapon. It was one of the first weapons human beings ever made for crying out loud...

unfortunately, "simple" "martial" and "exotic" are assigned essentially at random.

[Sir Chuckles]

unfortunately, "simple" "martial" and "exotic" are assigned essentially at random.

Happens in Pathfinder, as well.
Someone above mentioned bad Pathfinder weapons, and there's an incredible amount of strangely placed weapons, nigh-useless weapons, and weapons that just don't seem to have many, if any, reason to exist.

I'd like to point out the sheep herder's Crook for Pathfinder. A 1d6/x2 Reach weapon with trip. That is Exotic.

[squiggit]

It'd be nice if the designers ever figured out what they wanted "exotic" to mean. Because you have weapons that aren't particularly rare but require some special training to use and weapons that are probably pretty rare but actually easy to use... and weapons the designers just didn't seem to want anyone to use.

[Hrugner]

Happens in Pathfinder, as well.
Someone above mentioned bad Pathfinder weapons, and there's an incredible amount of strangely placed weapons, nigh-useless weapons, and weapons that just don't seem to have many, if any, reason to exist.

I'd like to point out the sheep herder's Crook for Pathfinder. A 1d6/x2 Reach weapon with trip. That is Exotic.

I'm still not sure exactly how a Klar is supposed to interact with anything.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm still not sure exactly how a Klar is supposed to interact with anything.

It's klarly for punning.

[Venger]

It'd be nice if the designers ever figured out what they wanted "exotic" to mean. Because you have weapons that aren't particularly rare but require some special training to use and weapons that are probably pretty rare but actually easy to use... and weapons the designers just didn't seem to want anyone to use.

Exotic is usually code for foreign which is problematic on its own but even that isn't applied with any real consistency

[paranoidbox]

It's klarly for punning.

It's mainly useful if you're a klarbarian.

[The Viscount]

I supposed if you wanted to avoid piercing damage (like the bygone Cleric "cannot shed blood" restriction) then a bludgeoning-only weapon would be a better choice. A monster healed by piercing (healthy aeration of the skin?) maybe, but I don't think that's an actual thing.

I don't know of any monsters like that, but I know of one or two like the alchemical golem that squirts you with chemicals for damage when hit with piercing. That and fire in the blood, I suppose.
And salamanders and similar things can transmit the heat through metal weapons like maces. Small benefit though.

[No brains]

I don't know of any monsters like that, but I know of one or two like the alchemical golem that squirts you with chemicals for damage when hit with piercing. That and fire in the blood, I suppose.
And salamanders and similar things can transmit the heat through metal weapons like maces. Small benefit though.

Don't forget about oozes. While melee is generally a bad idea against them, a morningstar will split them, but a mace will not.

[Platymus Pus]

Trips and disarms (both weapons and objects) at range and bards get free proficiency. Most bard spells that have a save aren't that good, so I could see a con > str > dex > other bard including a whip in his array of tricks. Or even without str on a cha bard it's still an option. Due to the range you avoid attacks of opportunity so you may as well spend the 1 gp and have it as an option against foes with a poor modifier. Trip small guys (-4 size), nab spell component pouches (-4 object, poor BAB), etc. Foes might have counters, but those take weight or other resources so they might not.

I'm going to agree with heavy mace. Heavier, more expensive and less damage types than the otherwise identical morningstar. And fluffwise you'd have to tell me what the difference is because I forget. EDIT: I googled it... the fluff difference is about the same as the mechanical difference. Not sure what character concept would be dying to use a mace instead, especially since when I picture a mace what I actually picture is a morningstar.

A punching dagger is generally a hair worse than a dagger but at least it's better for coup de graces rather than always inferior.
Get agile for dex dmg added and sudden stunning which is CHA based stunning that dramatically scales on a whip and you can do pretty well.

[animewatcha]

It's actually a weapon with a lot of potential. It already benefits from a number of ranged weapon feats. It's also a prime candidate for Master of Poisons. (hit everyone in range with Lotus Blossom Extract for fun and profit.) Also, by stacking damage enhancements between weapon and ammo and gleeful (ab)use of the aptitude property to cherry pick other useful feats for other weapons, (think Rapid Reload and Boomerang Daze) it can get downright nasty. On top of that, it winds up making feats like Superior Expertise worth a second look, since you can gain a huge dodge boost to AC without actually suffering the penalty for its use.

I've been toying with a fighter build that revolves around its use.... and it's surprisingly effective.

Explain please.

[mabriss lethe]

Explain please.

The sandblaster is classified as an exotic ranged weapon. Many feats that will work with ranged weapons in general will work with a sandblaster. Point blank shot, rapid shot,etc. (though Far Shot is probably the most important.) It also is fully compatible with master of poisons.

When it comes time to trick out your sandblaster with magic enhancements. The first two you'll want to nab (in either order) are Distance and Adaptive. Distance, combined with Far Shot will increase the weapon's range from a 10 foot cone to 30 feet. Adaptive allows you to use the sandblaster in conjunction with feats that are normally incompatible with it. It lets you treat the weapon as if it were of another type for the purposes of using feats that specify the use of a particular weapon. Rapid Reload is a great one, since you can treat your adaptive sandblaster as a light crossbow to reload as a free action. Crossbow sniper is also cool, since it lets you apply half your dex mod to damage. It also opens the door to tricks like Boomerang Daze. You fill out the rest of your enhancements with hard to resist damage dealers. Stuff like Collision or Dessicating. Avoid single energy type enhancements (save those for augment crystals and ammunition buffs.) Also avoid anything that triggers off of a crit, since you don't make attack rolls with a sandblaster. If your character is psionic, making the weapon out of deep crystal and taking the psionic shot feat can also boost your damage significantly.

Since it's a ranged weapon, you can enchant your ammunition separately from your weapon. Here's where you pick up an assortment of specific damage types like flaming or frost, You can also have the sand manufactured out of special materials like adamantine if you want to get silly. You can also grab some oddball special occasion ammo. Some of the dispelling/ illusion breaking ammo types really play well with it, since you just have to point it in the general direction of an invisible or highly magicked opponent to trigger the effect. Explosive ammo is also a fun way to add to the carnage.

A full attacking fighter can knock out multiple attacks either concentrated in the space of one 30 foot cone or spread out across several. If we assume Master of Poisons, Rapid Reload, Boomerang Daze: Every target hit has to save vs the sandblaster's debuff, Save vs poison, Save vs. Daze and take damage from multiple sources, and possibly find defensed dispelled. If you have a group of enemies in a tight space you can hit them repeadedly, forcing multiple saves each time.

For added fun, you can pick up superior expertise and dump your entire BAB into a dodge bonus, since you aren't using your BAB for anything except calculating the number of iterative attacks you can make. I guess you could also snag stone power as well.

[artimus261]

I know I'm replying to this thread two years too late but I'm still gonna say it. The kama. It's literally the sickle. Like. In every way. BUT OH IF YOU'RE A MONK YOU CAN MAKE FLURRY OF BLOWS ATTACKS WITH IT!!! Like you would even want to considering their monster unarmed damage late game, though i guess being able to enchant the bloody things is nice comparatively. Anyways, still going with the kama. It's the exotic simple weapon :U I mean really all of the 'special' monk weapons are pretty terrible. The only one I can even see an argument for is the sai, a blunt dagger that can still be thrown and gains a +4 disarm, not that terrible, but the siangham and kama are just... ugh... terrible.

[Drrakerr]

A bit off topic but its worth mentioning that, in Pathfinder at least, that Gnomes can use as many exotic weapons as they want as long as they can hit a DC 18 craft check and take the Master Tinker alternate racial trait. I once played a Soulforger Magus with a bastard sword and a repeater crossbow. It certainly helps that the Gnome FCB for magus is pretty stellar.

[Marlowe]

no. it was a real historical thing. it was a way of rules lawyering around the "spill no blood" edict by not piercing your enemy's skin in order to kill him. it had nothing to do with being nice.

It was never historical. It's based around Bishop Odo being depicted in the Bayeux Tapestry with a mace. Other medieval churchmen fought with swords just fine.

[SirNibbles]

Caber from Masters of the Wild, page 26: Exotic thrown weapon, deals no damage, requires you to hit AC 15 and allows a Reflex Save to avoid completely. If you hit AC 15, you force everyone in a 10 foot square area who failed their Reflex Save to be moved back 5 feet. If they can't move back, they take a whopping 2d6 damage.

But wait. I haven't gotten to the best part. It's a giant 100 lb log that you have to carry around. Since it's a thrown weapon, you need to carry more than 1 or you have to go and fetch it every time you use it.

This checks all the boxes plus those you'd never even considered:
Exotic (x)
Deals no damage* (x)
Requires an attack roll (x)
Allows a saving throw (x)
Threatens no squares (x)
Annoying to carry around (x)
Single use (x)

*except in rare cases

[Efrate]

Sai's actually give -4 to disarm, because they are tiny so suffer a -8 penalty before the +4 bonus. So your exotic crummy monk weapon specifically designed for disarming is actually worse than most other options.

[Firechanter]

In Pathfinder, the worst weapon has to be their version of the Spiked Chain.

Yes, dear 3.5 purists, you read that right. The only core exotic weapon that's actually worth a feat has been nerfed into insignificance, a fate worse than death.

The PF Spiked Chain no longer has Reach. It still does have the same crappy dmg/crit stats. And it still requires an Exotic WP. So you pay a feat to get something _worse_ than Martial Weapons.

Edit: in particular, pls compare to the Heavy Flail, which also has the Disarm and Trip properties, but does _more_ base damage and has _double_ the Threat range but only requires Martial proficiency.

[frogglesmash]

It may not be notably bad in terms of mechanics, but the gyrspike from the Arms and Equipment Guide is the dumbest weapon I have ever seen. If your not familiar with it, imagine a double bladed sword, but one of the blades is replaced with a flail.

[JustIgnoreMe]

Caber from Masters of the Wild, page 26: Exotic thrown weapon, deals no damage, requires you to hit AC 15 and allows a Reflex Save to avoid completely. If you hit AC 15, you force everyone in a 10 foot square area who failed their Reflex Save to be moved back 5 feet. If they can't move back, they take a whopping 2d6 damage.

But wait. I haven't gotten to the best part. It's a giant 100 lb log that you have to carry around. Since it's a thrown weapon, you need to carry more than 1 or you have to go and fetch it every time you use it.

This checks all the boxes plus those you'd never even considered:
Exotic (x)
Deals no damage* (x)
Requires an attack roll (x)
Allows a saving throw (x)
Threatens no squares (x)
Annoying to carry around (x)
Single use (x)

*except in rare cases

Looks like somebody missed the Caber Optimization thread a few months back.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512389-Optimize-this-weapon-2-Caber-from-Masters-of-the-Wild

[Quertus]

Haven't really read the thread, but I'm going with "peasant". They're heavy, unwieldy, only deal subdual damage, need to be fed, and tend whine a lot about abuse. They lack the hardness and HP of most weapons. Their only redeeming qualities are surprise and fun factor, and the fact that they come with a free skeleton for animation should the whining become too obnoxious.

Although "thrown bees" / "wasps' nests" likely come in a close second.

[Inevitability]

Haven't really read the thread, but I'm going with "peasant". They're heavy, unwieldy, only deal subdual damage, need to be fed, and tend whine a lot about abuse. They lack the hardness and HP of most weapons. Their only redeeming qualities are surprise and fun factor, and the fact that they come with a free skeleton for animation should the whining become too obnoxious.

You clearly have never played a Teramach.

[Vizzerdrix]

There was a exotic sling called a Gnomish Calculus or something in one of the splatbooks, Either Arms and Equipment or Races of Stone IIRC for throwing normal flasks of fire or acid. Not a bad weapon per se, especially if your DM rules that rider effects from enchantments also apply to targets hit by the splash damage, but otherwise too gimmicky to be worth the feat.

A&EG. Throws any alchemical as a 50 foot touch attack. If your wizard has a good dex, grab one and don't worry about the -4 to hit (-2 if you are small and it is masterwork).

[Gruftzwerg]

Elven Lightblade.
Spend an extra 30gp and a feat on exotic proficiency, to get a weapon that's practically identical to a Rapier. (1lb instead of 2lb - hey, that's a 50% reduction in weight! :smalltongue:)

Not fully correct. The Elven Thinblade is a light weapon (important for TWF penalties), while the Rapier is not. But I think that weapon damage isn't wort talking about. Even on crit builds, the feat is better invested on other dmg related feats (and instead take a Kukri in your offhand).

[Soranar]

I would say a soulknife's weapon.

Because you have to be a soulfknife to use it

[noce]

Not fully correct. The Elven Thinblade is a light weapon (important for TWF penalties), while the Rapier is not. But I think that weapon damage isn't wort talking about. Even on crit builds, the feat is better invested on other dmg related feats (and instead take a Kukri in your offhand).

The elven thinblades (and lightblades and courtblades) are far from bad weapons, since they have a niche.

Apart from Tome of Battle and Dragon Magazine, one of the few ways to add DEX to damage in 3.5 is Champion of Corellon Larethian, and these weapons are the only finessable weapons in the PrC weapon list apart from rapier.

This means that Improved Weapon Familiarity is a sound choice for a TWF Champion of Corellon:
- you qualify for the PrC taking this feat
- you're not stuck with dual wielding rapiers
- a lightblade negates the penalty for wielding a rapier in the offhand
- a thinblade in the main hand ups the damage by a die step, compared to a rapier
- both thinblade and lightblade count as rapiers for feats, so weapon focus and similar feats apply to both weapons at the same time

[SirNibbles]

Looks like somebody missed the Caber Optimization thread a few months back.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?512389-Optimize-this-weapon-2-Caber-from-Masters-of-the-Wild

I didn't miss that thread. They didn't really succeed at optimising it.

Seasoned oak wood weighs about 45 lbs/ft3. That means that a 100 lb caber has a volume of 2.22 ft3. Assuming it's around 8 feet long, it would have a diameter of around 7.2 inches. It's never mentioned, but let's be reasonable and say it's a two-handed weapon for a medium character.

The fact that it can't be used in melee except as an Improvised Weapon (in which case Improvised Weapon sizing rules would probably make it a Huge Two-Handed Weapon) means it can't be wielded at all by a Large or smaller character.

From Complete Warrior, page 103:

"You can use a melee weapon one size category larger than you are with a -2 penalty on the attack roll, and the amount of effort it takes to use the weapon increases. A larger light weapon is considered a one-handed weapon, a larger one-handed weapon is considered a two-handed weapon, and you cannot use a larger two-handed weapon at all."

So, we're left with its throwing ability (which is terrible).

[VoxRationis]

The ONE thing a lightblade gives that a rapier doesn't is that as an actually light weapon, so you don't have to drop your rapier in a grapple. That said, it still isn't worth a feat for a marginally better kukuri/ shortsword/ rapier.

There's also some argument that being included in the package deal you can get for being an elf and taking improved weapon familiarity counts for something.

Plus it's a rapier that you can off-hand without driving the TWF penalties through the roof. I'd say the whip is far and away worse than the elven lightblade.

[ATHATH]

Does the Fukimi-Bari give you three attacks per "normal" attack, does it allow you to make 3 attacks in one action even if you normally can't, does it just limit the total number of attacks per action or round to 3, or does it do none of those things?

[frogglesmash]

Does the Fukimi-Bari give you three attacks per "normal" attack, does it allow you to make 3 attacks in one action even if you normally can't, does it just limit the total number of attacks per action or round to 3, or does it do none of those things?

The text reads "You can fire up to three fukimi-bari per attack (all at the same target)."

[ATHATH]

The text reads "You can fire up to three fukimi-bari per attack (all at the same target)."
Yes, I read that, but what does that mean?

[Fizban]

Just checking the front and back:

really like half the OA weapons could be on this list. many are just normal things that're arbitrarily exotic because of the different name.
And of those weapons, I'd say the ninja-to has the honor of being the worst. All the others are at least "exotic" in shape or use, but the ninja-to is literally just a slashing short sword (at 3lb weight instead of 2lb), called out as having an open ended sheath, with no justification whatsoever for why this standard ninja sword is considered exotic.

Move over to Planar Handbook and enter the straightblade, the exact same weapon at martial proficiency for 3gp less.

Does the Fukimi-Bari give you three attacks per "normal" attack, does it allow you to make 3 attacks in one action even if you normally can't, does it just limit the total number of attacks per action or round to 3, or does it do none of those things?
The fukimi-bari's multi-attack thing is from 3.0, when shuriken had the same thing. For 3.5 shuriken were made part of the monk weapon list so you can flurry with them instead, and they removed the triple throw.

[frogglesmash]

Yes, I read that, but what does that mean?

Everytime you make an attack with them you can choose to launch up to three instead of just one i.e. three darts launched per attack roll. I don't understand what's causing confusion here. I mean

[ATHATH]

Does this mean that you can triple your Sneak Attack damage with them?

[frogglesmash]

Does this mean that you can triple your Sneak Attack damage with them?

I don't think so, Sneak Attack applies to every attack that qualifies, and with the Fukimi-Bari you're still making one attack, it's just netting you three hits. At least, that's how I read it.

[Venger]

Does this mean that you can triple your Sneak Attack damage with them?

No, because they are only one attack.

[Gruftzwerg]

The elven thinblades (and lightblades and courtblades) are far from bad weapons, since they have a niche.

Apart from Tome of Battle and Dragon Magazine, one of the few ways to add DEX to damage in 3.5 is Champion of Corellon Larethian, and these weapons are the only finessable weapons in the PrC weapon list apart from rapier.

This means that Improved Weapon Familiarity is a sound choice for a TWF Champion of Corellon:
- you qualify for the PrC taking this feat
- you're not stuck with dual wielding rapiers
- a lightblade negates the penalty for wielding a rapier in the offhand
- a thinblade in the main hand ups the damage by a die step, compared to a rapier
- both thinblade and lightblade count as rapiers for feats, so weapon focus and similar feats apply to both weapons at the same time

I wanted to say that in a one to one comprehension to other feats, it looks and is bad.
Sure there are still a few ways to utilize it in the right build with enough synergy around it.
You can always justify weak feats/abilities if you can make good use of em in your build (even if it's just a silly/unnecessary requirement like in this chase).
I even have a "Champion of Corellon" build utilizing the thinblade together with Driving Attack (another weak called feat; build see signature) myself, but that doesn't change the overall usage of the weapon. Only in special builds it's useful.

But yeah, I guess Thinblade is still far away from being the worst weapon.

And while we are talking about special builds, many so called worse/st weapons/things can be polished up in the right build.

[Archpaladin Zousha]

The worst weapon is the check toee, Tharizdun's favored weapon, because it's not even a real weapon, it's an editing oversight!

[Inevitability]

Does this mean that you can triple your Sneak Attack damage with them?

Nope. Rules Compendium says that if you attack multiple times with the same attack roll (which mouth darts presumably use), only the first gets SA damage. I've had an IC build die over this.

[Venger]

Nope. Rules Compendium says that if you attack multiple times with the same attack roll (which mouth darts presumably use), only the first gets SA damage. I've had an IC build die over this.

Well, technically RC has no authority to change that, since it's not the primary source, so in actual play you can always lean on that (and the fact that precision damage users are hardly menaces that need to be cut off at the knees) but I've been there. Poor totemist.

[Gruftzwerg]

Well, technically RC has no authority to change that, since it's not the primary source, so in actual play you can always lean on that (and the fact that precision damage users are hardly menaces that need to be cut off at the knees) but I've been there. Poor totemist.

RC isn't changing anything. It is just clarifying:

The rogue’s attack deals extra damage

An attack happens always when you "roll" an attack roll. The number of hits doesn't change the fact that it's still a single attack.

edit: corrected myself. I just woke up and seem to be fuzzy^^ sry.

[Mordaedil]

There's a lot of suggestions in this thread that are not the light hammer, the actually worst weapon that is still actually a weapon.

[Gruftzwerg]

There's a lot of suggestions in this thread that are not the light hammer, the actually worst weapon that is still actually a weapon.

Not really. A light bludgeoning weapon(can be used for TWF) that can be thrown (20ft base range). Other weapons aren't either light or don't deal bludgeoning damage or have a lesser range. Always a tiny difference (even if not really a difference in most situations).

[Thurbane]

Well, since this thread has risen from the grave, I'm going to chime in with great club.

Basically, it's an inferior version of a large morningstar (less damage, no piercing), that for some reason is classed as martial rather than simple [in my game it's given simple weapon status as a houserule].

[Venger]

There's a lot of suggestions in this thread that are not the light hammer, the actually worst weapon that is still actually a weapon.

I mean, it still works against armored enemies, unlike the whip, which is a strong contendor for worst weapon since in addition to its abject failure at offense (though it is offensive) it's also exotic to add insult to injury

Well, since this thread has risen from the grave, I'm going to chime in with great club.

Basically, it's an inferior version of a large morningstar (less damage, no piercing), that for some reason is classed as martial rather than simple [in my game it's given simple weapon status as a houserule].
and unlike the normal club, you can't even construct an infinite number of them instantaneously to erect barricades or build walls around your garden to keep wildlife out

[Mordaedil]

Not really. A light bludgeoning weapon(can be used for TWF) that can be thrown (20ft base range). Other weapons aren't either light or don't deal bludgeoning damage or have a lesser range. Always a tiny difference (even if not really a difference in most situations).

The problem with it is that while it is light, it deals significantly less damage than other weapons of its type, and it is in most respects worse than the Simple weapon variant. The throwing benefit is the only thing offsetting it, but at a 20 feet range increment, it is still extremely limited in use. Also most importantly, I've never, ever, seen anyone use one. And I've seen all manner of characters use really weird weapons, even things like greatclubs and whips.

Light hammers? Never, except as improvised weapons(using the tent pitching hammer to hit enemies).

Also, pointing out that the whip is worse is just a boring pick because it was designed to be exactly what it is, a weapon of torture.

[noce]

Well, since this thread has risen from the grave, I'm going to chime in with great club.

Basically, it's an inferior version of a large morningstar (less damage, no piercing), that for some reason is classed as martial rather than simple [in my game it's given simple weapon status as a houserule].

Greatclub has great (eh) support from feats, though: among the weapons that work with Three Mountains, it deals the most damage.
Also, bludgeon damage, so Brutal Strike.
I once did a Neanderthal with those feats wielding a greatclub, and Neanderthals get a +1 to hit with greatclubs.

I think we should not name weapons that have worse stats than others, but weapons that no build would use.
For example, no build is going to use light hammers over light maces, light picks or throwing axes.

[Kelb_Panthera]

As for my suggestion of the worst weapon, I would nominate the atlatl (Sandstorm).
It has the same damage and range increment as a sling, except that it has a x3 crit (alright, that's cool), but it's a martial weapon, not a simple one. If you have access to the martial weapons list, then you're not going to be choosing an atlatl. (I guess, as a plus, it benefits from high str, although it's not actually mentioned in the text so who knows. The reload time isn't mentioned either, but I suppose it wouldn't be a stretch to rule it like a sling since it's obviously been inspired by it.)
But the main fail of this weapon is its ammunition, the atlatl spear, which costs 1 gp AND weighs 2 lbs per spear. I don't think you can even use the spears in melee, because, again, it's not actually mentioned anywhere.
At least the atlatl has actually been used, historically speaking, so well done for that...? I guess?

Eh, both a thrown and a projectile weapon at the same time. Good for enhancing with stuff that would otherwise be mutually exclusvie.

[ATHATH]

No, because they are only one attack.
Darn.

You can still triple most buffs to damage with them, though, right?

[Venger]

Darn.

You can still triple most buffs to damage with them, though, right?

Yes, that's correct, such as knowledge devotion or blade of blood.

[The Viscount]

Haven't really read the thread, but I'm going with "peasant". They're heavy, unwieldy, only deal subdual damage, need to be fed, and tend whine a lot about abuse. They lack the hardness and HP of most weapons. Their only redeeming qualities are surprise and fun factor, and the fact that they come with a free skeleton for animation should the whining become too obnoxious.

Although "thrown bees" / "wasps' nests" likely come in a close second.

Pigbonded commoners can be a major threat if optimized.

If we're talking worst weapons, then I have to bring up the Sugliin. Yes it deals 2d8 points of damage, but it's an exotic weapon, so that's a feat already burned, and until you take the feat (which requires +5 BA) it's a full round action to attack with it. It's a reach weapon, too, so you have to worry about positioning.

[Bucky]

There are very few ranged weapons that can be used hands-free, so Fukimi-Bari has a niche there.

[zyggythorn]

I'd like to note that the NinjaTo is actually a beautiful way to save some cash on a twf build

The sheathe of the NinjaTo can be used as a blowpipe, or as a club.

As the sheathe is specifically called out in the description as such, any enchantments on the weapon affect both the sheathe and the blade.

[Eladrinblade]

Out of the PHB, I'd say the sickle. It's only reason for existing is to give people who only have simple weapon proficiency a slashing weapon that deals more base damage than a dagger. And just like that, I realized it's true purpose: giving clerics a way to damage zombies that's better than a dagger. How about that, it actually has a decent purpose. Granted, you should use turn undead or magic stones or something, but if you're out and cornered...

The whip has a decent purpose as a quick-drawn distance disarmer. If, for whatever reason, you can't move and need to disarm people outside of your normal reach, you have the whip.

Shields are decent because they are a backup bludgeoning weapon that you're likely to be carrying anyway. If you're an improved shield bash user, you might use an unspiked shield because it's bludgeoning rather than piercing. Improved shield bash is actually a decent feat for rogues who take a level of fighter, long before animated shields are available (or usefully available; a +3 shield is more useful than a +1 animated shield, but if they're both +5 then not so). In core, anyway, outside of core you just take improved buckler defense.

Nunchucks are actually decent as well; they let a monk have the MW quality on attack rolls with the same damage as his unarmed strikes, likewise they are enchantable. They are also a flurry weapon. Now, his damage will quickly outstrip the nunchucks, but the best core use of the monk class is as a 1-level dip for rogues. Now the rogue has a bludgeoning weapon that he can flurry with (can't think of any real reason for a bludgeoning weapon for a rogue, though).

The gauntlet is decent for people that have a level of monk but also have simple weapon proficiency; you can have a MW or enchanted 1d6 unarmed strike. Can't flurry with it, sadly, or else it would be awesome for full-level monks.

The punching dagger is close to being the worst. If you are only proficient in simple weapons, and you want a slashing weapon that does more damage on crits than a dagger or sickle, you probably shouldn't be into melee that heavily. It's kinda hard to see a real reason to use this weapon.

The light repeating crossbow will probably take the cake as I can't think of a single redeeming purpose for it. In my houserules, it has a small use, because gnomes treat them as simple weapons (and heavies as martial).

The waraxe and the bastard sword give a chance of marginal extra damage per hit for one-handers...not worth a feat for me, but at least they have a purpose.

[Venger]

Out of the PHB, I'd say the sickle. It's only reason for existing is to give people who only have simple weapon proficiency a slashing weapon that deals more base damage than a dagger. And just like that, I realized it's true purpose: giving clerics a way to damage zombies that's better than a dagger. How about that, it actually has a decent purpose. Granted, you should use turn undead or magic stones or something, but if you're out and cornered...

The whip has a decent purpose as a quick-drawn distance disarmer. If, for whatever reason, you can't move and need to disarm people outside of your normal reach, you have the whip.

Shields are decent because they are a backup bludgeoning weapon that you're likely to be carrying anyway. If you're an improved shield bash user, you might use an unspiked shield because it's bludgeoning rather than piercing. Improved shield bash is actually a decent feat for rogues who take a level of fighter, long before animated shields are available (or usefully available; a +3 shield is more useful than a +1 animated shield, but if they're both +5 then not so). In core, anyway, outside of core you just take improved buckler defense.

Nunchucks are actually decent as well; they let a monk have the MW quality on attack rolls with the same damage as his unarmed strikes, likewise they are enchantable. They are also a flurry weapon. Now, his damage will quickly outstrip the nunchucks, but the best core use of the monk class is as a 1-level dip for rogues. Now the rogue has a bludgeoning weapon that he can flurry with (can't think of any real reason for a bludgeoning weapon for a rogue, though).

The gauntlet is decent for people that have a level of monk but also have simple weapon proficiency; you can have a MW or enchanted 1d6 unarmed strike. Can't flurry with it, sadly, or else it would be awesome for full-level monks.

The punching dagger is close to being the worst. If you are only proficient in simple weapons, and you want a slashing weapon that does more damage on crits than a dagger or sickle, you probably shouldn't be into melee that heavily. It's kinda hard to see a real reason to use this weapon.

The light repeating crossbow will probably take the cake as I can't think of a single redeeming purpose for it. In my houserules, it has a small use, because gnomes treat them as simple weapons (and heavies as martial).

The waraxe and the bastard sword give a chance of marginal extra damage per hit for one-handers...not worth a feat for me, but at least they have a purpose.

gauntlet's actual use is threatening while you're using a reach weapon

light crossbow is bad, but at least you can use it every round, unlike heavy crossbow

[Eladrinblade]

gauntlet's actual use is threatening while you're using a reach weapon

light crossbow is bad, but at least you can use it every round, unlike heavy crossbow

Spiked gauntlet does the same thing but better, though I guess the gauntlet is bludgeoning and not piercing.

Anyway, I said light repeating crossbow.

[Arbane]

Caber from Masters of the Wild, page 26: Exotic thrown weapon, deals no damage,

But wait. I haven't gotten to the best part. It's a giant 100 lb log that you have to carry around.

How in the much-abused name of sanity does a 100-pound log being thrown at someone NOT do damage? Is it made of cork?

[Flickerdart]

How in the much-abused name of sanity does a 100-pound log being thrown at someone NOT do damage? Is it made of cork?

No - Cork is in Ireland, and cabers are Scottish. :smallamused:

[Venger]

How in the much-abused name of sanity does a 100-pound log being thrown at someone NOT do damage? Is it made of cork?

if it were, it would be about 6.67 cubic feet.

which, horrifyingly, is about right.

[Vizzerdrix]

I have the urge to try to optomize cabers made of soarwood.

[Venger]

I have the urge to try to optomize cabers made of soarwood.

now that's my kind of juggleflight.

[JustIgnoreMe]

How in the much-abused name of sanity does a 100-pound log being thrown at someone NOT do damage? Is it made of cork?
It does do damage, it's just that there is a DC to avoid the caber (and thus the damage).

[VoxRationis]

The light repeating crossbow will probably take the cake as I can't think of a single redeeming purpose for it. In my houserules, it has a small use, because gnomes treat them as simple weapons (and heavies as martial).

Well, the light repeating crossbow is cheaper than the heavy... Maybe if your DM has houseruled away the Rapid Reload feat for some reason or another. But yeah, generally the light repeating crossbow is a good pick, in that it is purely more expensive to use than a regular old light crossbow (if you get the Master's Touch spell from Complete Adventurer, I suppose the light repeating crossbow becomes more useful, but a character who can reliably cast that spell and still have enough attacks to mean repeating makes a difference should be able to afford a heavy one). The heavy ones are pretty good for low-strength characters, though.


The waraxe and the bastard sword give a chance of marginal extra damage per hit for one-handers...not worth a feat for me, but at least they have a purpose.

The elven lightblade and thinblade work along the same lines... only you can pick them both up for the same feat. That's why I think they're more legitimate as weapons than say, the whip (which is really more, as you said, of a distance trip/disarm tool than a weapon).

[Dunsparce]

Also most importantly, I've never, ever, seen anyone use one. And I've seen all manner of characters use really weird weapons, even things like greatclubs and whips

I actually once made a major NPC that used a Returning Light Hammer as her signature weapon.

[Arbane]

It does do damage, it's just that there is a DC to avoid the caber (and thus the damage).


Caber from Masters of the Wild, page 26: Exotic thrown weapon, deals no damage, requires you to hit AC 15 and allows a Reflex Save to avoid completely. If you hit AC 15, you force everyone in a 10 foot square area who failed their Reflex Save to be moved back 5 feet. If they can't move back, they take a whopping 2d6 damage.


I'm still not seeing how this would work. I've heard of caber-tossing, is caber-catching an even more obscure sport?

[Venger]

I'm still not seeing how this would work. I've heard of caber-tossing, is caber-catchingan even more obscure sport?

if their back's against a wall, or there's another monster immediately behind them

[Arbane]

if their back's against a wall, or there's another monster immediately behind them

That is entirely too many 'ifs' for what should be 'I throw a phone pole at them, they're hurt by it hitting them.'

[ATHATH]

if their back's against a wall, or there's another monster immediately behind them
I think what Arbane's trying to say is that it's ridiculous that a 100-pound log only knocks people back five feet on a hit and a failed save(,) and only damages stuff that can't move.

[Venger]

I think what Arbane's trying to say is that it's ridiculous that a 100-pound log only knocks people back five feet on a hit and a failed save(,) and only damages stuff that can't move.

i agree entirely.

looks like you've got to fly above them and drop it from above so they can't back up through the ground.

[Celestia]

i agree entirely.

looks like you've got to fly above them and drop it from above so they can't back up through the ground.
Yeah, but then you need a strength score high enough that a 100 lb caber doesn't put you over light load, so probably 21 or higher, to account for other gear.

[Dagroth]

i agree entirely.

looks like you've got to fly above them and drop it from above so they can't back up through the ground.


Yeah, but then you need a strength score high enough that a 100 lb caber doesn't put you over light load, so probably 21 or higher, to account for other gear.

Hmm... perhaps in conjunction with the Wingstorm feat?