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Abstruse
2007-04-26, 09:24 PM
Sometime in the near future, I'm hoping to run a campaign, and I'd like to houserule some of the more encounter-breaking spells out while preserving the wizard as a fairly powerful class. Wizards should have impressive arcane power; they shouldn't be able to snuff an entire encounter with a single low-level spell. So, what spells do you think might be most abusable?

Current candidates, given numerous discussions on this forum, include Ray of Stupidity, Shivering Touch, and the entire Polymorph school.

Anyone care to extend any other possible ones?

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 09:28 PM
Time Stop and Contingency spring readily to mind...

Kel_Arath
2007-04-26, 09:29 PM
How low level are we talking? Ooh! Don't ever, EVER let them use animate dead and have more than 4 undead total (cause an army of 200 skeletons is scary).

Stevenson
2007-04-26, 09:32 PM
Well, depends on what type of "encounter-breaking" yer talking.

Because to be honest, I'd slam greater teleport/teleport(to a lesser extent), they can really take all the tension out of a large encounter.

"Aaagh! We're getting our butts kicked! We need a different approach!"

"No, we don't." *teleport*

Galathir
2007-04-26, 09:32 PM
Celerity and Shivering Touch are pretty cheesy.

Everyman
2007-04-26, 09:32 PM
Well, I'd reconsider ALL polymorph spells, if you instead substitute the PHB ones for the Polymorph subschool ones in the PHBII. There isn't anything too horrid about those.

I would HIGHLY recommend Ray of Clumsiness. Such a spell is a bit annoying when chained.

JaronK
2007-04-26, 09:37 PM
How low level are we talking? Ooh! Don't ever, EVER let them use animate dead and have more than 4 undead total (cause an army of 200 skeletons is scary).

Um, no. An army of 200 1HD skeletons really can't do much to the threats a 20th level wizard is up against... and considering you'd have to be 50th level to have that many (4HD/Level), that's just dumb. Animate Dead is costly and usually not very useful unless you specialize in it (Dread Necro w/ Corpse Crafter Line) and even then it's not a game breaker.

Anyway, there's a lot of nasty spells. Offhand:

Shrink Item
Explosive Runes
Celerity
Time Stop
Contingency
Fabricate
Major Creation
Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange
Any Teleport
Forcecage
Shivering Touch
Assay Resistance
Gate
Planar Binding
Planar Ally
Remedy Moderate Wounds

Plus pretty much all of the save or dies can end an encounter extreamly quickly.

JaronK

Enzario
2007-04-26, 09:46 PM
I'd say don't get rid of contingency, but do up the XP cost of casting it. Maybe make it scale with the level of the spell that is to be cast?

Also, I think people should remember that the purpose of this thread is to "take out broken spells," not "NERF® THE WIZZY!!!!!!

The teleport spells don't seem too broken to me. Just slap down a Dimensional Anchor (or two). [As with all antimagic tactics, use sparingly.]Explosive Runes is just a fun spell to use. I don't see any reason that it is broken.

My 2 cp.

Logos7
2007-04-26, 09:52 PM
If i Had to Pick 4 it would probably be

Gate ,Timestop ,Celerity, Forcecage

A few more , Any Force Effect without SR ( ala Forcecage only 1 or two other's like that ) , the entire orb series ( I just houserule in my game that Antimagic means antimagic and immune to magic means immune to magic, I find the Sr:No means immune to Antimagic to be a curious bit of game architecture), The Save or Dies or Save or Sucks are kind of part of the powah, it's when they are combined with other No Save No SR spells that things seem to break down ( Forcecage + CloudKill for the Win)

Maybe Even trade out Timestop for Genisis, but my money's still on a misintrepretation of that spell ( Doesn't say you can give the plane any traits you want when i read it , but it should be more specific )

As for Tele and Mordenkinen's magic mansion , I consider these retreat's I don't see why'd you nerf them. I teleport away, great give the bad guy a small reward ( Glass of wine in the evening and a handful of Xp) and a squad of Scyrer's / Anti Magiciians as he attempts to intelligently deal with threats ( Forcecage being on the nerf list, means no more forcecage and retreat for 9 hour's dealio)

anyway thats just off the top of my head

ROCK ON!~
LOGOSA

Abstruse
2007-04-26, 10:07 PM
Plus pretty much all of the save or dies can end an encounter extreamly quickly.
JaronK
True, but I'm thinking of the sort of spells that can completely overcome an otherwise impressive challenge with virtually no effort.

For example: Madtooth the Hungry, the rampaging froghemoth, found in the Age of Worms adventure path. One 2nd-level Ray of Stupidity and it's out cold, period. Same goes for nearly any low-INT opponent, regardless of HD.

And ahhh, Celerity. I knew I'd forgotten something... *grin*

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-26, 10:12 PM
If i Had to Pick 4 it would probably be

Gate ,Timestop ,Celerity, Forcecage

What, not contingency?


A few more , Any Force Effect without SR ( ala Forcecage only 1 or two other's like that ) , the entire orb series ( I just houserule in my game that Antimagic means antimagic and immune to magic means immune to magic, I find the Sr:No means immune to Antimagic to be a curious bit of game architecture), The Save or Dies or Save or Sucks are kind of part of the powah, it's when they are combined with other No Save No SR spells that things seem to break down ( Forcecage + CloudKill for the Win)

To be honest, Forcecage *DOES* cost $1,500 in ruby dust, so it's not as cheap as most make it out to be.

And I always thought SR was silly against Evocation as well as Conjuration. How is being immune to magical energy going to help against a magically created ball of fire? As far as SR:No=AMF:yes, I can see it perfectly. The magic creates the physical effect, then launches it, much like a modern day gun. Once it hits the AMF, it's already created and moving terminal velocity. There's no more magic for it to affect.

Forcecage is only win against melee. Against melee, there's far more interesting ways to go about doing it (Solid Fog + Cloudkill, for instance, or Slow + Cloudkill, or Grease + Cloudkill). There's lots of ways to stop someone in their tracks. Against most things you're worried enough about it to blow that kind of change, they're probably either too big to fit or have ways of getting out of it.


Maybe Even trade out Timestop for Genisis, but my money's still on a misintrepretation of that spell ( Doesn't say you can give the plane any traits you want when i read it , but it should be more specific )

As for Tele and Mordenkinen's magic mansion , I consider these retreat's I don't see why'd you nerf them. I teleport away, great give the bad guy a small reward ( Glass of wine in the evening and a handful of Xp) and a squad of Scyrer's / Anti Magiciians as he attempts to intelligently deal with threats ( Forcecage being on the nerf list, means no more forcecage and retreat for 9 hour's dealio)

anyway thats just off the top of my head

ROCK ON!~
LOGOSA


I agree that Teleport and MMM are by no means overpowered.

Explosive Runes is not overpowered either. Kinda hard to make an opponent read something in the middle of combat...

I fail to see how Shrink Item is overpowered...

Fabricate, handled properly, is not broken either. You need a Craft check, and the raw materials. All it does is speed up the process.

Major Creation is only broken if PC's try to start selling it at market value then running before it expires. This is solved when the Merchant's Association finds out about this con, posts their faces in every shop in the nation with a clear warning to avoid purchasing anything from them and to alert the local law enforcement concerning many Fraud charges. Concequences to actions.

TheThan
2007-04-26, 10:21 PM
Wait… how is explosive runes broken?

The wizard spells that give me the most trouble are the Alter Self/Polymorph/Shapechange and the teleport spells.
I usually don't play high enough level games to be able to use contingency or Celerity, but that’s just me.

I just rolled up a wizard in an up and coming campaign. The Dm has never DMed a caster before so naturally I gave out an evil laugh. But then I had to promise not to break her game.

Dausuul
2007-04-26, 11:21 PM
I agree that Teleport and MMM are by no means overpowered.They aren't overpowered in terms of being insta-wins in combat. However, teleport makes it way too easy to bypass obstacles, and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion makes it very difficult to hold the PCs to the "four encounters per day" guideline. If wizards can arrange to only have one encounter a day, they go nova and win.

Oh--one other thing I would do, especially as wizards get to high levels, is to lay down a policy on metamagic feat stacking. My preferred policy is, "Feats that change quantity do not stack; feats that change quality do." So, for instance, if you use Split Ray and Maximize on an enervation spell, both of those are increasing quantity, so you end up with one ray that does 4 negative levels and one ray that does 1d4 (as opposed to two rays that do 4 negative levels each, which is what you would get by RAW).

On the other hand, you can Empower your Silent fireball and it will still be silent, because Silent Spell changes a quality of the spell.

This will cut down hugely on metamagic cheese, particularly with regards to enervation. Especially if you allow Arcane Thesis.

The_Snark
2007-04-26, 11:36 PM
I'm surprised Mordenkainen's Disjunction hasn't come up much yet. An automatic dispelling of all magical effects is really, really nasty against enemy wizards. Using it tends to incur a sort of mutually assured destruction, of course, and it hurts the PCs so much more than it does their enemies... I find it's usually better to ban it. If you hit epic levels, Reaving Dispel and such spells are good enough to neutralize enemy effects.

Time Stop and Celerity are awesomely powerful, too. Forcecage and Gate are both nasty, but they carry expensive material/XP costs.

I personally don't like MMM and Rope Trick, since they remove any need to keep watch or worry about resting in inappropriate spots, but I don't know that I'd label them as broken.

Oh, Assay Spell Resistance. Enemies with spell resistance are meant to be, well, resistant to magic. With this spell, they really aren't.

Machete
2007-04-27, 12:00 AM
Cure Light Wounds
True Strike (IMHO)

..many others already mentioned more.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-27, 12:09 AM
Teleport.
Heh. That's seriously abusable. Not in combat, but as transportation. Getting low on anything? Teleport. Need to bypass something? Teleport.
Combine that with scry....
One of the best ways to teleport is to take a lock of a captive's hair, then let him go. Scry on him. You now know exactly where to teleport to.

Legend Lore, Bardic Knowledge & scry + a teleport can circumvent months of adventuring a non-teleport enabled party would have to take.

Ulzgoroth
2007-04-27, 12:16 AM
Timestop, Celerity, Core Polymorph family, Gate as summoning spell, rays of stupidity and clumsiness (and the rest of the wierd-ability damaging spells).

Gate and some of the polymorphs might be rehabilitated by filtering the Monster Manual for stupidity.

Turcano
2007-04-27, 12:17 AM
Wait… how is explosive runes broken?

The trick to breaking explosive runes is as follows:

Step 1: Cast the spell as many times as you want (perhaps using a wand) on an object that can be delivered to your target (attaching it to a ranged or thrown weapon works well for this).

Step 2: Get said object in proximity of your target; if this is using a ranged weapon (by you or someone else), this is pretty straightforward.

Step 3: Cast dispel magic on the item and intentionally fail your caster level check, which automatically triggers the spells, doing an absolutely stupid amount of force damage.

Fire seeds can be broken in a similar manner (and is worse in many ways, since there's no CL cap), but at least there's the possibility of fire resistance/immunity.

Dhavaer
2007-04-27, 01:48 AM
Cure Light Wounds

:confused:

This requires explaination.

ShneekeyTheLost
2007-04-27, 03:40 AM
Teleport.
Heh. That's seriously abusable. Not in combat, but as transportation. Getting low on anything? Teleport. Need to bypass something? Teleport.
Combine that with scry....
One of the best ways to teleport is to take a lock of a captive's hair, then let him go. Scry on him. You now know exactly where to teleport to.

Legend Lore, Bardic Knowledge & scry + a teleport can circumvent months of adventuring a non-teleport enabled party would have to take.

That would be Scry abuse more than Teleport abuse. Without all the scrying, they wouldn't know where to teleport to.

Abstruse
2007-04-27, 05:50 AM
Timestop, Celerity, Core Polymorph family, Gate as summoning spell, rays of stupidity and clumsiness (and the rest of the wierd-ability damaging spells).
Agreed on most of that, but why clumsiness? It doesn't do damage to DEX. It's a penalty, as with Ray of Enfeeblement, and therefore can't take the stat negative.

Vik
2007-04-27, 07:06 AM
The trick to breaking explosive runes is as follows:
Step 1: Cast the spell as many times as you want (perhaps using a wand) on an object that can be delivered to your target (attaching it to a ranged or thrown weapon works well for this).

Step 2: Get said object in proximity of your target; if this is using a ranged weapon (by you or someone else), this is pretty straightforward.

Step 3: Cast dispel magic on the item and intentionally fail your caster level check, which automatically triggers the spells, doing an absolutely stupid amount of force damage.You can't fail a dispel magic check when you're targeting your own spell. However, it works with your cleric friend.
But then, all you have to do is rule that you can only cast it once per object, or that explosive runes exploding together don't overlap.

ghost_warlock
2007-04-27, 09:06 AM
the entire orb series ( I just houserule in my game that Antimagic means antimagic and immune to magic means immune to magic, I find the Sr:No means immune to Antimagic to be a curious bit of game architecture),
Que?


Antimagic
An antimagic field (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/antimagicField.htm) spell or effect cancels magic altogether. An antimagic effect has the following powers and characteristics.

No supernatural ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#supernaturalAbilities), spell-like ability (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#spellLikeAbilities), or spell works in an area of antimagic (but extraordinary abilities (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities) still work).
etc.
(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic)

The "Spell Resistence: No" entry doesn't allow the spell to be cast in an antimagic field, it simply allows the spell to affect creatures immune to spells that allow spell resistance (golems, not much else). So, these spells are broken because they can be used on a small, specific group of creatures? Nah.

JackMage666
2007-04-27, 10:13 AM
Well, if you're players arn't trying to break the game, you shouldn't really worry about eliminating any of these spells. Even Polymorph can be used effectively without being gamebreaking, as any smart player would not go too far, knowing their DM can just unleash Divine Justice on them. Seriously, I think as long as you don't have players who try to annoy you and break the game, you shouldn't have a problem.

And Explosive Rune? If a player tried to pull the whole many casting/dispel trick, they'd be harshly punished for it, considering then they are just trying to break the game. Now, if they used it in the traditional sense (sending messages, protecting chests or things, ect.), then there would not be a problem.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-27, 10:23 AM
Shrink item. Shrunk rocks + dispel magic + falling damage == carnage.

Charm & dominate if you allow the same spell to overlap with itself. Because of the long duration you can have lots of these spells on the same person, making them almost impossible to dispel ... if you simply houserule that being affected by the same spell twice will reset it's duration if not specifically noted otherwise these spells are fine (walking around with a lot of dominated creatures is a very risky strategy because of dispelling).

Douglas
2007-04-27, 10:57 AM
The "Spell Resistence: No" entry doesn't allow the spell to be cast in an antimagic field, it simply allows the spell to affect creatures immune to spells that allow spell resistance (golems, not much else). So, these spells are broken because they can be used on a small, specific group of creatures? Nah.
SR: No spells do not ignore antimagic fields. It's instantaneous conjurations that do that, and only if the caster is outside the field. It just so happens that the Orb spells have both of these properties so some people might get confused about which one is responsible for ignoring AMF.

brian c
2007-04-27, 11:25 AM
Que?


(http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#antimagic)

The "Spell Resistence: No" entry doesn't allow the spell to be cast in an antimagic field, it simply allows the spell to affect creatures immune to spells that allow spell resistance (golems, not much else). So, these spells are broken because they can be used on a small, specific group of creatures? Nah.

Actually, I think the claim is that you can cast a "no SR allowed" spell and hit something inside an anti-magic field. I'm not familiar with that ruling, but I think that's what logos was saying. It does sort of make sense though, if there's no SR then the effect is not magical (it was created magically, but like a fireball or lightning bolt, isn't magical itself) and therefore should be fine in an AMF

Lapak
2007-04-27, 11:40 AM
Actually, I think the claim is that you can cast a "no SR allowed" spell and hit something inside an anti-magic field. I'm not familiar with that ruling, but I think that's what logos was saying. It does sort of make sense though, if there's no SR then the effect is not magical (it was created magically, but like a fireball or lightning bolt, isn't magical itself) and therefore should be fine in an AMFCorrect. As written, instant-duration conjurations don't dissapear upon entering an AMF. So if I have an AMF at the bottom of a cliff and I create a Wall of Iron at the top of the cliff, then knock it over so it falls into the AMF - anything in the AMF gets squashed. Doesn't seem totally unreasonable. Except that many, many Conjuration direct damage spells are instant conjurations - I magically create an Orb of Fire, but then it's real fire in a way that, somehow, fire created by an Evocation spell isn't. That seems really weird to many people, including myself, but that's how anti-magic fields work as written.

Machete
2007-04-27, 11:40 AM
:confused:

This requires explaination.

Instantly healing damage of this amount often at first level. Not just converting it to nonlethal. Plus no side effects.

I know it is a staple.

Still, every month I see someone asking if a "ring of constant cure minor wounds" is legal. Might as well make it make sense if someone wants an item like that.

Dausuul
2007-04-27, 11:58 AM
Instantly healing damage of this amount often at first level. Not just converting it to nonlethal. Plus no side effects.

I know it is a staple.

Still, every month I see someone asking if a "ring of constant cure minor wounds" is legal. Might as well make it make sense if someone wants an item like that.

The item creation guidelines are guidelines, not rules. They very clearly state that they do not cover every possible magic item and are only there to give the DM a general idea of how to price custom items. "Fixing" cure light wounds and true strike is not required.

If you're talking about the normal use of cure light wounds by the cleric... uh, so what's the problem again? It's a vital element of the system. D&D breaks down very quickly if you strip clerics of the ability to heal. Ever played a combat-heavy campaign with no cleric? I'm playing a front-line tank in such a game right now, and we keep having to stop and rest for 2 days in the middle of a dungeon so we can heal.

Valairn
2007-04-27, 12:40 PM
I think Blizzard in the way they conduct wow is a good example of this. There is a distinct difference between creative use of game mechanics and exploitation.

Casting a bunch of explosive runes on an arrow and the messing up a dispel on purpose to cause a lot of damage is a creative use of game mechanics. Hell even the wizard kills dragon with shivering touch is a creative use of game mechanics. The rules are there and are being used.

And anyway, these are WIZARDS we are talking about, they are suppossed to be powerful. Hi I bend the laws of the universe, why does everyone complain when i do it......

Now as far as making a balanced game is concerned a lot of these spells shout be omitted or changed, but one should never punish their players because they used a spell creatively. You might have to stop them from doing it again, but people should be rewarded for creativity not punished.

I realize this may have come off as an attack on the thread, I didn't mean that at all. Really I was just responding to a previous post stating that "game-breaking" creativity on the part of the players should be punished. No, no it shouldn't, it should be prevented next time for certain, but just cause your players "won DnD" in that particular encounter doesn't mean they should be punished, or treated as deviants.

My main point here lies in this, if you could imagine a wizard doing it, its not unreasonable for the players to do it. A wizard in real world terms has a super super genius IQ, i'm sure he could figure out how to one shot a dragon, or take over the world, or anything like that, its part of being a wizard.

Wizards really are suppossed to be powerful.

As far as game mechanics are concerned, something should be done to affect wizards in a way that will limit them to levels where they don't overshadow people. But once you introduce magic into the system it becomes difficult. First of all, most of a fighters power at high levels is magical too. The fact that they can't use any magic at all, is kind of absurd at that point. They literally walk around in a field of magic all the time.

Before trying to figure out which spells are "broken" you have to question the premise of why fighters are underpowered. And really it comes down to, fighters rely on magic too. So fix the way fighters rely on magic and you might have fixed the issue.

Excuse my wall of text.

Caelestion
2007-04-27, 01:02 PM
Hell even the wizard kills dragon with shivering touch is a creative use of game mechanics.
There is nothing creative about it. It is simply using the spell exactly as it was written to be used, i.e. beardily.

Valairn
2007-04-27, 01:13 PM
That is entirely a matter of opinion. I personally would not have though of it. But one of my players did in fact use it like that once, not against a dragon. But same idea. And I was like good game, he beat my encounter with one spell, and then was like. Good on him. And then threw the spell out of those available to use next time. And gave him bonus xp.

Draz74
2007-04-27, 01:16 PM
And anyway, these are WIZARDS we are talking about, they are suppossed to be powerful. Hi I bend the laws of the universe, why does everyone complain when i do it......

I realize this may have come off as an attack on the thread, I didn't mean that at all. Really I was just responding to a previous post stating that "game-breaking" creativity on the part of the players should be punished. No, no it shouldn't, it should be prevented next time for certain, but just cause your players "won DnD" in that particular encounter doesn't mean they should be punished, or treated as deviants.

My main point here lies in this, if you could imagine a wizard doing it, its not unreasonable for the players to do it. A wizard in real world terms has a super super genius IQ, i'm sure he could figure out how to one shot a dragon, or take over the world, or anything like that, its part of being a wizard.

Wizards really are suppossed to be powerful.

No more or less powerful than any other class of the same level.
Fighters really are supposed to be powerful.
Paladins really are supposed to be powerful.
Bards really are supposed to be powerful.

Caelestion
2007-04-27, 01:17 PM
Well, how else do you use a spell which does 10 Dex damage on average, can lower Dex to 0, can be stacked etc? You use it to paralyse creatyres with average or lower Dex. That's hardly rocket science, you know.

anmesm58527
2007-04-27, 01:29 PM
I would have to agree with valairn....wizards are supposed to be powerful...the balance come from the fact that they have like 12 spells per day and they are done....sure they can do 80d6(slight exageration) at once...but then they just kinda sit around.....

as a DM you need to plan for the wizard to do his wizard thing and then pull the wool over his eyes....low level example...lets say 5th level

wizard just got fireball...so he is GOING to prepare it...send a troll at him, boom fireball and a burning hands or two decimate the troll......the sounds of battle wake up the kobolds and there is a horde of them....the wizard can't just fireball them because he used his fireball already...or..if the wizard is smart and doesnt use his fireball..send another troll after them.....

be flexible make the encounter fit the party and make it challenging.....another example....if a party is made up of 2 clerics a paladin and a fighter....its pretty well said that undead dont stand a chance...so...dont send undead up against them...wyrmling dragons work nicely...

another way to foil the wizard(if that is your ultimate goal) is to prolong the amount of time between rests...therefore the wizard actually has to think about whither or not to blast them...or just hit them with his stick(cause thats about the only option a wizard has if he doesnt cast anything)

Valairn
2007-04-27, 01:35 PM
Considering I actually do rocket science I'll let that one slide. You are in fact completely missing my point.

Really what I'm trying to say is and this is in response to Draz, is that if you want to make those classes powerful, you either have to remove a lot of wizards power, or make fighters have magic like abilities, read "game breaking." The reason wizards are considered powerful is because in sometimes just one round of combat they can completely decide an encounter. This isn't and shouldn't be considered overpowered, fighters should have the same abilities. And from a certain perspective they do, a 20th level fighter could decimate a small army cleaving them all into the ground. Where the fighter lacks is in same CR encounters, where he is considerably lacking compared to the wizard. That SHOULD be fixed. But not by saying, this is broken, or that is broken, but by defining what you want DnD to be. If you want long epic battles against epic enemies, you will need to tailor the game to that. If you want players to benefit from creativity and be able to one shot the gods themselves, do it.

Pun Pun is broken, but he is also completely legal, which gives insight into DnD major problem, which isn't in poorly constructed spells, but in a poorly constructed PREMISE. Look at the difference between Eberron and FR, the play style and feel of the worlds are completely different just based off of premise alone.

What is the premise of DnD we are even beginning to talk about here. How can wizards be broken, if we don't know what wizards are supossed to be?

Now onward....

I believe the premise of DnD to be about heroics against startling enemies and saving the world. The game is made to do it, the abilities of high level characters are completely and utterly ridiculous in terms of realism. Where I think DnD fails is, that fighters were built under the assumption that they were "non-magical" while wizards didn't have that limitation put on the. That means, fighters are "realistic" while wizards don't have to be.

On that point alone fighters will always lose. In order to balance DnD and to unbreak it requires you to allow everyone to do "impossible" things, or to allow nobody to anything "impossible".

Blah I'm so long winded.....

brian c
2007-04-27, 01:38 PM
I would have to agree with valairn....wizards are supposed to be powerful...the balance come from the fact that they have like 12 spells per day and they are done....sure they can do 80d6(slight exageration) at once...but then they just kinda sit around.....

as a DM you need to plan for the wizard to do his wizard thing and then pull the wool over his eyes....low level example...lets say 5th level

wizard just got fireball...so he is GOING to prepare it...send a troll at him, boom fireball and a burning hands or two decimate the troll......the sounds of battle wake up the kobolds and there is a horde of them....the wizard can't just fireball them because he used his fireball already...or..if the wizard is smart and doesnt use his fireball..send another troll after them.....

be flexible make the encounter fit the party and make it challenging.....another example....if a party is made up of 2 clerics a paladin and a fighter....its pretty well said that undead dont stand a chance...so...dont send undead up against them...wyrmling dragons work nicely...

another way to foil the wizard(if that is your ultimate goal) is to prolong the amount of time between rests...therefore the wizard actually has to think about whither or not to blast them...or just hit them with his stick(cause thats about the only option a wizard has if he doesnt cast anything)

Ah, but the "good" or "well-played" (that is, optimally played) wizard didn't learn fireball. He learned Fly, which is useful no matter how many trolls there are, or some other spell besides fireball. The way D&D 3.x was design, the wizard would learn fireball, but the issue here is that game designers used blaster casters instead of "batman" so that's what the game is balanced for.

Gamebird
2007-04-27, 01:50 PM
Spells to ban:

Alter Self
Polymorph
Shapechange
- These cause a host of problems with creature familiarity and rulings on abilities. Plus, they're just too powerful compared to other spells of the same level.

Assay Spell Resistance
- As a swift action, this is way out of line. A creature's SR is often an important part of its CR. This spell allows casters to bypass that and reduce the creature's dangerousness.

Dimension Door
Teleport
Greater Teleport
Teleport Object
Teleportation Circle
- For reasons other posters have given - these spells allow PCs to bypass encounters and hardships, avoid the BBEG's defenses and do a lot of things that makes life really hard for a DM.

Rope Trick
Mordincainen's Magnificant Mansion
- More encounter-avoidance. While good for a party, it causes a lot of issues for a DM. I'd love to see the PC's reaction if monsters routinely used these tactics on them!

Phantom Steed
Overland Flight
- More encounter avoidance and rapid travel. If it works for your DMing style and campaign setup to allow the PCs rapid, uncomplicated travel from point A to Z without passing through B, C, etc., then good for you. However, the campaign is greatly simplified in scope and terrain if you limit the PC's ability to be wherever they want.

Shrink Item
- This is a fine spell if you limit it to ONLY being useful for storing and shrinking things. The problem is that every player with two brain cells to rub together reads the spell and begins hammering the DM with questions about how many vials of acid or alchemist's fire or lamp oil he can fit in a barrel, what sort of attack roll his flying familiar has to make to drop it over an enemy and how much damage it does after it hits. Or they cast it on rocks. Or they cast it on doors or on pillars holding up ceilings. Or they pull a Shroedinger and put a cat inside a box and cast Shrink Item on the box - and they want to know if the cat is shrunk too, and if so, is it alive or dead? It's easier on the DM to just say NO to the spell.

I really haven't played at such a level as to know if Gate/Time Stop/Celerity/etc. are a problem.

Telonius
2007-04-27, 01:56 PM
A good little batman wizard isn't going to be casting Fireball anyway.

My "Broken" list (remove these from the game):
Polymorph spells
Orb spells
Celerity
Forcecage
Disjunction

My "Nerf" list (make these less powerful):
Fly (lesser duration)
Ray of Stupidity (penalty not damage)
Lesser Vigor (... still not sure what to do with this one. Maybe make it one level higher)
Wind Wall (Miss chance for ranged attack, not automatic failure).

brian c
2007-04-27, 02:10 PM
A good little batman wizard isn't going to be casting Fireball anyway.

My "Broken" list (remove these from the game):
Polymorph spells
Orb spells
Celerity
Forcecage
Disjunction

My "Nerf" list (make these less powerful):
Fly (lesser duration)
Ray of Stupidity (penalty not damage)
Lesser Vigor (... still not sure what to do with this one. Maybe make it one level higher)
Wind Wall (Miss chance for ranged attack, not automatic failure).

I agree with you on most of those but... they already nerfed Fly from 3.0 to 3.5, is it really necessary to do that again? It's only 1 minute per level, which lets you fly for the length of a battle, or for maybe a mile. True, it helps you get past obstacles, but isn't that what magic is supposed to do? Also, Wind Wall should have a pretty high miss chance even if you do nerf it like that.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-27, 02:18 PM
Rope Trick
Mordincainen's Magnificant Mansion
- More encounter-avoidance. While good for a party, it causes a lot of issues for a DM. I'd love to see the PC's reaction if monsters routinely used these tactics on them!
They'd use detect magic a lot more. Which is exactly how I think intelligent opponents should oppose it.

Jack Mann
2007-04-27, 02:22 PM
I would have to agree with valairn....wizards are supposed to be powerful...the balance come from the fact that they have like 12 spells per day and they are done....sure they can do 80d6(slight exageration) at once...but then they just kinda sit around.....

as a DM you need to plan for the wizard to do his wizard thing and then pull the wool over his eyes....low level example...lets say 5th level

wizard just got fireball...so he is GOING to prepare it...send a troll at him, boom fireball and a burning hands or two decimate the troll......the sounds of battle wake up the kobolds and there is a horde of them....the wizard can't just fireball them because he used his fireball already...or..if the wizard is smart and doesnt use his fireball..send another troll after them.....

be flexible make the encounter fit the party and make it challenging.....another example....if a party is made up of 2 clerics a paladin and a fighter....its pretty well said that undead dont stand a chance...so...dont send undead up against them...wyrmling dragons work nicely...

another way to foil the wizard(if that is your ultimate goal) is to prolong the amount of time between rests...therefore the wizard actually has to think about whither or not to blast them...or just hit them with his stick(cause thats about the only option a wizard has if he doesnt cast anything)

Unfortunately, at the level the wizard starts winning, this becomes even worse for the melee types. Remember, they do eventually run out of hit points. Especially if the caster can no longer buff them up anymore.

Now, bringing wizards down a couple of notches is a good and worthy goal. But I wouldn't try to bring them all the way down to the fighter's level, unless you're prepared to do a lot of other work. See, it's not just wizards that fighters can't compete against. It's monsters. At high levels, fighters just don't stack up against the monsters. This is when the class disparity becomes worse. The casters can mow right through most enemies while the fighter is toast if he isn't being buffed to here and back. And even then, he's still relegated to second banana, since the cleric's buffs or the druid's wildshape make them much superior combatants.

So, you really have three choices here. One is to boost all classes up to the wizard's level. Probably not a good choice, since then they're all overpowered. The second is to drop everyone to the fighter's level. Again, not the choice I'd make, since you also have to go through every monster you want to use and give it a similar drop in power. Third is to raise up the underpowered classes while lowering the overpowered classes, say to the level of the Tome of Battle classes. That, to me, is the best solution, since you end up with everyone able to contribute to fights, but they don't just stomp their way through every encounter.

Telonius
2007-04-27, 02:24 PM
For Fly: Yes, I'd say it's necessary. I'd have it as rounds per level, not minutes. Right now, a wizard with both "Fly" and "Wind Wall" up can basically laugh at any non-caster, non-flying opponents for the entire length of the combat.

Agreed on the high miss chance. It should be Really Hard (but not Impossible) to hit a wizard with one of those up.

JaronK
2007-04-27, 02:25 PM
I agree that Teleport and MMM are by no means overpowered.

Teleport is one of those spells that can easily end an encounter, making it far too easy. "Okay, you must battle through this army of enemies, slay the lich, and claim the magic sword." "Screw that. Divination, located the sword. Teleport to it. Grab. Teleport away." It's a campaign breaker that way.


Explosive Runes is not overpowered either. Kinda hard to make an opponent read something in the middle of combat...

The thing is, it's permanent, with no cost. Just scribe papers with 20 such runes in your down time... destroying the runes would count as an attempt to erase them (if the DM is silly enough to rule otherwise, you can ignore the usual disarming method of other such spells and simply cut them in half). Thus, destroying such a piece of paper would do 120d6 damage. Now wrap those papers around alchemist's fire and throw them at the enemy to do that much force damage... and they need to make 20 reflex saves, each one removing 3d6 damage if successful. Ouchie. And that's a third level spell.

I fail to see how Shrink Item is overpowered...

Again, it's often a campaign breaker. "You see a giant marbel statue of a god in a beautiful room..." "Cool, I shrink it and steal it. How much is a 20 foot marble statue worth again?" Or, climbing above enemies with a shrunken anvil, then dropping it on them for incredible damage. Since it lasts days per level, you can just shrink a bunch of such things before entering the dungeon or whatever, and then get all new spells ready. Shrink Item is one of those spells that can be incredibly powerful if used creatively... far more powerful than most other 3rd level spells.

Fabricate, handled properly, is not broken either. You need a Craft check, and the raw materials. All it does is speed up the process.

Cast Wall of Iron. Now you've got plenty of Iron to work with... that'll cost you 50gp, but you've got enough Iron to cast even more such spells. Now cast Magecraft... If your Int is decent, and you've got Masterwork Tools, and maybe a ring of +armourcrafting, you should be good to make Muffling Suslean [sp?] Chainweave Spiked Masterwork Full Plate. That clocks in at over 32kgp in total value, and you can do it as many times as you have fabricate memorized per day. Either outfit minions raised with animate dead and the like or sell it for incredibly large profits... either way you've gained a ton of power, and just like Shrink Item and Explosive Runes, you can do it during downtime, so it doesn't use up spell slots during actual adventures.

[spoiler]Major Creation is only broken if PC's try to start selling it at market value then running before it expires. This is solved when the Merchant's Association finds out about this con, posts their faces in every shop in the nation with a clear warning to avoid purchasing anything from them and to alert the local law enforcement concerning many Fraud charges. Concequences to actions.[/quote]

Or, if you're creative, you can make entire vats of Black Lotus Poison. This stuff lasts for hours (it's biological) and can be used to make pit traps, or just dump on the bad guy's head. Deliver it with a skeleton to avoid potencial self poisonings. The DC is increased by one for every additional dose applied in a given round, and you can make enough for thousands of doses, so now the target makes a DC 100 fort save or take huge con damage every round for about 10 rounds. Very easy kills.

Also, remember that mages can cast Alter Self, Disguise Self, and a myriad of other spells so that your merchant's association can't do anything. But that doesn't matter... they can sell the full plate above instead.

Quite honestly, there's a ton of spells that can do incredibly powerful game breaking things. Flesh to Salt, for example, can make money just like Wall of Iron/Fabricate... just buy a cow and cast the spell, then sell the perfectly pure salt.

JaronK

Valairn
2007-04-27, 02:28 PM
Unfortunately, at the level the wizard starts winning, this becomes even worse for the melee types. Remember, they do eventually run out of hit points. Especially if the caster can no longer buff them up anymore.

Now, bringing wizards down a couple of notches is a good and worthy goal. But I wouldn't try to bring them all the way down to the fighter's level, unless you're prepared to do a lot of other work. See, it's not just wizards that fighters can't compete against. It's monsters. At high levels, fighters just don't stack up against the monsters. This is when the class disparity becomes worse. The casters can mow right through most enemies while the fighter is toast if he isn't being buffed to here and back. And even then, he's still relegated to second banana, since the cleric's buffs or the druid's wildshape make them much superior combatants.

So, you really have three choices here. One is to boost all classes up to the wizard's level. Probably not a good choice, since then they're all overpowered. The second is to drop everyone to the fighter's level. Again, not the choice I'd make, since you also have to go through every monster you want to use and give it a similar drop in power. Third is to raise up the underpowered classes while lowering the overpowered classes, say to the level of the Tome of Battle classes. That, to me, is the best solution, since you end up with everyone able to contribute to fights, but they don't just stomp their way through every encounter.

YEAH! I FOUND SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME! <3

JaronK
2007-04-27, 02:40 PM
YEAH! I FOUND SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME! <3

Actually, I agree too. I divide the classes into Tiers... Tier 5 are the classes that have one thing they can do, and they do that thing horribly, and in many situations can't contribute at all to solving the encounter. Basically the classes that are broken in a poor way (CW Samurai... look, I'm a two weapon melee fighter who can only do that and I suck at it!). Teir 3 are the guys who can do what they do well, but really can only do that thing, and thus are inflexible, but can't dominate encounters (Warmage), or people who can't do anything particularly well, but can do a little of many things at least respectably (Warlock). Teir 1 are the guys that can do it all on their own and can usually do it better than the classes that are specialists in those areas (the big 5: Wizard, Cleric, Druid, Archivist, Artificer. Sorcerers and Favored Souls sorta count here, but they're right at the Tier 2/Tier 1 border, as they've got the same amount of raw power but lack the flexibility).

Personally, I think everything should be right around Tier 2 (Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Swordsage, Warblade, Crusader). These are the guys that are very good at what they do, and have enough flexibility to at least contribute in most situations, but still have weaknesses and need the rest of the party to really get things done. A part of all these guys would be able to have each member be the star of the show sometimes, without anyone feeling really left out, and that's what's important in the long run.

So... how to drop the Wizards to Tier 2? Well it's damn hard, since they have the potencial to do, well, anything. Personally, I make everyone cast off charisma for the save DCs, Wisdom for bonus spells, and Int for max spell level. It gives casters a little MAD. Banning spells I find hard to do, as a creative player can figure out almost anything, but at least making some spells hard to find helps. 9th level spells are almost impossible to actually get... usually it's a quest of it's own just to get them. And this makes sense... having access to Forcecage is at least as powerful as giving the fighter a +5 sword. Wizards of course still get their 2 free spells at each level, so they've got two of the good ones, they just need to work hard to find the rest.

These two things, plus leaving out the Blessed Book so Wizzies need to spend most of their wealth on spells, I find helps a good bit. They're still pretty darn awesome though.

JaronK

Meschaelene
2007-04-27, 02:41 PM
They aren't overpowered in terms of being insta-wins in combat. However, teleport makes it way too easy to bypass obstacles, and Mordenkainen's magnificent mansion makes it very difficult to hold the PCs to the "four encounters per day" guideline. If wizards can arrange to only have one encounter a day, they go nova and win.

The "scry, teleport party, kill BBEG with the party's readied actions" is pretty overpowered...

The only things I see as being overpowered are the ones that take initiative out of the picture -- anyone can kill in one round, but it's the caster who has ways to make sure he goes first...

Morty
2007-04-27, 03:51 PM
Finally, someone who thinks that Teleport is overpowered. I though I was alone in that.

YEAH! I FOUND SOMEONE WHO AGREES WITH ME! <3
The problem with 'casters are OK, fighter need boosting' is that you can't bring non-wizards to wizard's current power level. Non-twinked wizard overshadows non-wizards even before they become weak overall, and sufficently twinked wizard can be untouchable. Barbarian or rogue won't do that, since they can't cast spells, so it would break their flavor. Same applies to clerics and druids, though maybe to a lesser extent.

Jack Mann
2007-04-27, 04:12 PM
And that's why I recommend bringing the overpowered classes down as well. Indeed, even if you could bring all of the classes up to that level, it would be difficult to challenge them without upping the monsters too. A lot of work, there.

Granted, there's not much you can do with the underpowered classes as is. The fighter, for example, needs some pretty serious fixes before he's up to par. Look at Bears with Lasers's fighter fix for an example of how much work needs to be done.

But it's doable.

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-27, 04:13 PM
That would be Scry abuse more than Teleport abuse. Without all the scrying, they wouldn't know where to teleport to.

True.
But a party with access to teleport will never run out of anything while adventuring, so long as they're on a plane where they know they can teleport to. Say the party comes across some sort of insidious obstacle which would be easy to bypass, IF they had a widget. The DM knows they only have wockets, thus heightening the indsidious nature of the obstacle.

Teleport.
Buy widget.
Teleport.
DM cries.

And having teleport being blocked all over the place just doesn't make sense, if it's a low magic world.

Any technology sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic. And Wizards are very magical. Ergo, they are extremely advanced technology. In the pseudo-Middle Ages.

Polarbeast
2007-04-27, 04:32 PM
wizard just got fireball...so he is GOING to prepare it...send a troll at him, boom fireball and a burning hands or two decimate the troll......the sounds of battle wake up the kobolds and there is a horde of them....the wizard can't just fireball them because he used his fireball already...or..if the wizard is smart and doesnt use his fireball..send another troll after them.....
I agree with this. Spacing out the arrival of opponents so that they're not a neatly-arranged, one-shot batch of cannon fodder makes it challenging for the wizard to decide how best to use his arsenal, and adds some nice stress to the story ("I've only got one ### spell left!").


another way to foil the wizard(if that is your ultimate goal) is to prolong the amount of time between rests...therefore the wizard actually has to think about whither or not to blast them...or just hit them with his stick(cause thats about the only option a wizard has if he doesnt cast anything)
I also like futzing with the players' resting time. A Rope Trick is detectable by magic and can be dispelled, which tumbles all the players out to the ground nicely. I imagine other "safe resting spells" are too, although I haven't looked them up. Keep interrupting them with low-level random encounters. The wizard needs his recovery/study time to regain all those spells. (Besides, this helps out other players who can perform at any time and give them a chance to shine.)

Whatever your players can do, enemies can do. An enemy wizard with Time Stop and Contingency prepared is going to be able to really hurt them by, say, suppressing their magic as they walk into his area. The player wizard has powerful spells that seem to upset game balance... but so does the enemy.

Your player has favorite spells he's going to have, or is smart and knows "spell combos," and it's not always fair to curb him because it's making it harder to challenge the party. (I understand that certain spells are just plain silly, though, and I'm still working through my own opinions on those)

JaronK
2007-04-27, 05:57 PM
I also like futzing with the players' resting time. A Rope Trick is detectable by magic and can be dispelled, which tumbles all the players out to the ground nicely. I imagine other "safe resting spells" are too, although I haven't looked them up. Keep interrupting them with low-level random encounters. The wizard needs his recovery/study time to regain all those spells. (Besides, this helps out other players who can perform at any time and give them a chance to shine.

Except this doesn't make sense. Even the PCs can't walk around seeing invisable portals all the time. Honestly, if you want to nerf Rope Trick and the like, just remove them. Don't have all monsters just automatically have "glasses of finding rope trick" on, as that's absolutely silly.

JaronK

Morty
2007-04-27, 06:00 PM
Yeah, the best way to fix easy-rest spells is to remove them. If there were easy ways to detect them and interrupt rest anyway, they'll lose their point.

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-27, 06:36 PM
I think I'm going to start a thread to discuss this but I'll say it here first as it is relevant to the OP's question.

Why in the world are any of you running combat encounters at anything above about level 13? D&D is not meant to be played at high elvels liek it is at lower levels.

Levels 1-5: You adventure through the woods and generally level up from almost all combat (and a lot of random encounters).

Levels 5-10: Random encounters are rarer but the still come up every now and then. About half your XP comes from combat encounters. The rest of your XP comes from story rewards and non combat encounters.

Levels 10-15: If you are adventuring in a high power area you may face a few random encounters but you will see maybe 1 per level if you are on the material plane. Combat that gives XP generally only occurs towards the end of an adventure and is a culmination moment.

Levels 15-20: Combat against opponents that can threaten you is incredibly rare. Maybe 1 in 5 adventurers and 1 in 20 encounters end with or involve combat. The rest is roleplaying and story rewards. Or you leave the prime material and adventurer around the multiverse, perhaps you go and fight in the blood war for a bit.


Yes, above about 13th level the party (and its casters mostly) will most likely decimate any enemy that they face with little risk and little or no trouble. Why does this matter? They shouldn't be facing problems that are solvable with combat that often at all.

I've played high level wizards before who didn't fight a single thing for the whole level and who only used spells for housekeeping type stuff (at one point I had prestidigitation in 24 slot's because I was pretending to be a servant in a manor). That was from level 17 to 18. I had to refresh spells maybe once per week.

Enzario
2007-04-27, 06:37 PM
I think a great way to make casters weaker is to throw enemy casters at them. I mean, seriously, Improved Counterspell is there for a reason, and a properly prepared counterspeller can seriously screw up a wizard's agenda.

Whatever happened to giving monsters class levels?

JaronK
2007-04-27, 06:40 PM
I think a great way to make casters weaker is to throw enemy casters at them. I mean, seriously, Improved Counterspell is there for a reason, and a properly prepared counterspeller can seriously screw up a wizard's agenda.

Whatever happened to giving monsters class levels?

The problem here is that those caster monsters will easily make short work of the melees, which contributes to the problem, not the solution.

I think the goal here is to make the players of both casters and fighters feel like they're actually contributing and part of the story. Having too many caster monsters just leaves the fighters and archers and the like standing back staring at a floating beastie with a windwall and feeling useless.

JaronK

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-27, 06:42 PM
Why don't people understand that combat is just 1 facet of the story and at the wizards=win levels it should be a very small facet (maybe 5%)

JaronK
2007-04-27, 06:44 PM
Why don't people understand that combat is just 1 facet of the story and at the wizards=win levels it should be a very small facet (maybe 5%)

See, here's the thing. Even when you're not doing combat, the Wizard still wins. Social stuff? Charm, Dominate Monster, Disguise Self, etc. Building an empire? Fabricate, Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone, etc.

It's not just combat... Wizards can do everything.

Now, what about the Fighter? What's he going to do when it's not combat time?

JaronK

Emperor Tippy
2007-04-27, 06:56 PM
See, here's the thing. Even when you're not doing combat, the Wizard still wins. Social stuff? Charm, Dominate Monster, Disguise Self, etc. Building an empire? Fabricate, Wall of Iron, Wall of Stone, etc.

It's not just combat... Wizards can do everything.
Pretty much anyone that you are dealing with at those levels should be immune to all forms of influencing or reading their thoughts.

My high levels players learned quickly and developed a 9th level permanent duration spell that woudl let them knwo instantly if the target was under the affect of any of the mind control spells and would (at the wizards choice) shut down all higher brain function of the target (so that they can't do what the mind controller wants. It is dismissiable at will by the caster and has a range of anywhere on the current plane (like Telepathic Bond). Its also willing targets only to stop some cheese.

Now their minions are effectively immune to all that nasty mind control stuff. I stole the spell and they face people with the same type of protections.

As for building an empire, sure thats great. Its not game breaking though, and you can tailor your adventurers and campaigns to avoid that problem.

Perhaps they have to help construct a settlement in a dead magic zone. It is to be built their on purpose to avoid all the evil magics in the world.


Now, what about the Fighter? What's he going to do when it's not combat time?

JaronK


Meh. Fighters suck. No one should attempt to balance anything to the current fighter or his contemporaries. Remove them as a PC class or have them go Fighter 5 and then automatically go into warblade (to show their progression from mere fighter to a more capable person).

Turcano
2007-04-27, 10:09 PM
You can't fail a dispel magic check when you're targeting your own spell. However, it works with your cleric friend.
But then, all you have to do is rule that you can only cast it once per object, or that explosive runes exploding together don't overlap.

The spell description for dispel magic states that a dispel check always succeeds on your own spells, but this was written with the assumption that you want to succeed, so you could rule either way on that one.

The first rule is a sensible house-rule, but the second one causes problems for other spells. I mean, meteor swarm would have only a quarter of its power against a single opponent by that logic.

Jack Mann
2007-04-28, 12:19 AM
I disagree, Tippy. While D&D does become unbalanced at high levels, I don't think the intention was for combat to stop then. D&D may not do combat as well at high levels, but it does social activities even less. The combat system really is the main draw of D&D. Beyond that, it doesn't have a whole lot going for it. If you're going to switch to a high social game, you should really either go free-form or else to a more socially-based game system. Bears could probably point you to some.

For the rest of us. we feel that D&D can be made to work at higher levels, at least well enough. Not perfectly, no, but still enough for us to have fun and let everyone contribute.

Now, granted, it stops working entirely at epic levels, but up to level twenty, I still think it can be fixed.

If I didn't want high combat, I wouldn't be playing D&D.

Polarbeast
2007-04-28, 04:51 AM
I also like futzing with the players' resting time. A Rope Trick is detectable by magic and can be dispelled, which tumbles all the players out to the ground nicely. I imagine other "safe resting spells" are too, although I haven't looked them up.
Except this doesn't make sense. Even the PCs can't walk around seeing invisable portals all the time. Honestly, if you want to nerf Rope Trick and the like, just remove them. Don't have all monsters just automatically have "glasses of finding rope trick" on, as that's absolutely silly.
Naturally not, and I hadn't suggested such... I don't particularly want to nerf said spells myself, because I think they're useful when the party needs them.

Because the original poster is thinking of reducing the number of powerful wizard spells, I thought to suggest a very occasional way to make something like, say, Rope Trick not the automatic 8-hours-rest-stop it's often used for. It doesn't have to be a constant magic detection; tracking or scent can perhaps detect that a party's been through here, someone gets suspicious, an enemy spellcaster pops on the detection, there's a Rope Trick.

PinkysBrain
2007-04-28, 05:12 AM
Don't have all monsters just automatically have "glasses of finding rope trick" on, as that's absolutely silly.
Monsters, no ... guards for a high level BBEG caster, sure. It's cantrip level magic.

Abstruse
2007-04-28, 07:15 AM
Tippy, I respect your input, and I don't disagree with anything you said about high-level campaigns sometimes not involving combat. However, I'm not looking to limit that possibility -- I'm looking to anticipate and head off the more abusive spells or spell combos that seem far too overpowered for the level at which they can be cast.

Celerity, Ray of Stupidity, Shivering Touch, most of the Polymorph-type spells from core -- all of those fall into that category. They're the "I don't care what you do, I automatically win/gain an overpowering advantage over you" spells. Given the levels at which they become available to casters and the extent to which they continue to be effective up through the levels, yes, I consider those unbalancing.

I have no objection to combinations like Forcecage and Cloudkill -- both are high-level spells, and the former requires a somewhat costly material component (all boasting of soloing black dragons aside, such deeds wouldn't be tremendously easy at the level at which the combination first becomes available).

Curmudgeon
2007-04-28, 08:32 AM
Shrink item. Shrunk rocks + dispel magic + falling damage == carnage.
No, only possible carnage. You've still got to hit the target below. Most casters don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (irregular boulder).

And it's not as if Shrink Item is required to be able to drop massive rocks. You can spread a Portable Hole out on the underside of a larger Carpet of Flying, dropping the 275 cubic feet of stone that you piled in the Hole a week ago. You'd need to cast a lot of Shrink Item spells to match that volume.

Dausuul
2007-04-28, 10:27 AM
No, only possible carnage. You've still got to hit the target below. Most casters don't have Exotic Weapon Proficiency (irregular boulder).

So you give them to the fighter and cast fly on both of you. You'd have to have someone else drop them anyway so you could ready an action to dispel before they hit.


And it's not as if Shrink Item is required to be able to drop massive rocks. You can spread a Portable Hole out on the underside of a larger Carpet of Flying, dropping the 275 cubic feet of stone that you piled in the Hole a week ago. You'd need to cast a lot of Shrink Item spells to match that volume.

First, that combo costs 80K in items, which is a bit above the wealth by level for 5th-level characters.
Second, it would be a whole lot harder to get the rocks to fall at the right moment--you'd have to ride the carpet upside down, then tell it to flip over when you were over the enemy, and meanwhile you yourself would have to stay on it somehow.
Third, the existence of another broken combo does not make the first one okay. Portable holes are another item ripe for abuse.

FdL
2007-04-28, 12:43 PM
Well, if you're players arn't trying to break the game, you shouldn't really worry about eliminating any of these spells. Even Polymorph can be used effectively without being gamebreaking, as any smart player would not go too far, knowing their DM can just unleash Divine Justice on them. Seriously, I think as long as you don't have players who try to annoy you and break the game, you shouldn't have a problem.

And Explosive Rune? If a player tried to pull the whole many casting/dispel trick, they'd be harshly punished for it, considering then they are just trying to break the game. Now, if they used it in the traditional sense (sending messages, protecting chests or things, ect.), then there would not be a problem.

QFT. Spells aren't broken. Players often are.

JaronK
2007-04-28, 01:56 PM
QFT. Spells aren't broken. Players often are.

Can I do a Quoted For Falseness? Shivering Touch isn't broken because players are abusing it, it's broken because when used exactly as it's supposed to be used you can easily one shot a dragon with no save. Rope trick is broken because you can use it exactly as intended to get a chance to reload all your spells. Timestop is broken because when you use it exactly as intended you can use the extra rounds granted to cause all sorts of carnage.

Most of the broken spells aren't broken by weird interpretations... they're broken simply because the standard use is incredibly powerful.

Now, some you need to get more creative for... but isn't that the point in D&D? Aren't you supposed to get creative? Unless you play in a completely railroaded game, the players are supposed to come up with creative solutions... and if you give the players an effectively unlimited supply of a spell with a permanent duration that, when discharged, explodes for a lot of damage, it's only natural that they're going to try to come up with a way to blow up multiple copies at once. That use of explosive runes is exceptionally obvious. Likewise, using Shrink Item to drop anvils on people's heads makes perfect sense.

Players aren't broken. Players are the ones who should be able to have fun being creative. The game is broken because obvious solutions to what are supposed to be difficult problems are easily available in the rules, which often causes DMs to punish players for doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing.

JaronK

PinkysBrain
2007-04-28, 02:12 PM
No, only possible carnage. You've still got to hit the target below.Hitting AC5 is not the hardest thing in the world.

Draz74
2007-04-28, 02:22 PM
Grease -> change casting time to 1 round.
True Strike -> reduce bonus to +10, +1 per 2 caster levels.
Sleep -> targets should have to fail the save twice to be affected.
Color Spray -> change casting time to 1 round.
Alter Self -> replace with something from the PHBII Polymorph line of spells.
Knock -> gives an Open Lock bonus of +5 +caster level instead of automatic success.
Rope Trick -> change duration to 10 minutes/level. A spell this low in level shouldn't keep you safe all night -- save that for Magnificent Mansion (or Secure Shelter).
Spider Climb -> gives a Climb bonus of +5 +caster level instead of automatic success.
Shivering Touch -> ban.
Orb spells -> should probably allow Spell Resistance.
Ray of Stupidity -> change to a 1d4 penalty, instead of damage.
Explosive Runes -> don't allow it to be effective more than once on the same small object - must be separated by 3 feet to be effective, or some amount like that.
Phantom Steed -> this is fine, because it's so easy to kill in combat, and wizards should have something to make long-distance travel easier.
Wind Wall -> instead of automatically blocking attacks, it gives them a 50% miss chance, plus counts as cover (+4 AC) against those same attacks.
Fly -> either reduce its duration to 1 round/level or make it a higher level spell (4th level might be high enough).
Shrink Item -> rule that the spell always ends slowly and non-violently. If the spell is forced to end abruptly, such as entering an AMF, the object in question simply crumbles into dust instead of returning to its usual size. Also, if big marble statues are a problem, there could be a cheap anti-theft oil that makes an object permanently immune to this spell.
Solid Fog -> change casting time to 1 round. Or maybe even require a 50-gp material component.
Polymorph -> replace with something from the PHBII Polymorph line of spells.
Celerity -> ban.
Assay Resistance -> ban.
Teleport -> change casting time to 1 minute. This should not be a mid-combat spell. Also, make it easier to block (by making spells such as Anticipate Teleportation or Dimensional Lock lower level or otherwise better). Whole dungeons or the like should sometimes be blocked from long-range teleportation effects.
Antimagic Field -> it makes me nervous, but I'm not sure I'm actually advocating any change in it ...
Major Creation/Wall of Iron/Wall of Stone/Fabricate/Flesh to Salt/whatever -> Anything that creates permanent objects should have a small XP cost to go with it.
Mage's Magnificent Mansion -> a "shelter" spell like this is probably appropriate at this level. The only part I'm not sure about is the entry being invisible; opponents who want to be able to dispel your mansion and ambush you in the middle of the night, who are that intelligent, should be able to find you.
Forcecage -> It's actually not such a problem, with the material component. I'd kind of like if a high-DC Strength check were allowed to break it down, though. If you're still worried about it, increase casting time to 1 round.
Reverse Gravity -> can cause problems, but I'm not sure how to fix it.
Irresistable Dance -> add 100-gp material component.
Greater Shadow Evocation -> since this can copy Forcecage without the material cost, it's a problem. Increase casting time to 3 rounds or so, maybe? Or extend the "60%" clause and make the spell only 60% likely to work if a disbelief save on the target's part succeeds.
Polymorph Any Object -> ban, or write more specific, weaker versions of it.
Greater Celerity -> ban.
Mage's Disjunction -> Instead of destroying magic items, this should suppress their magical properties for 1 hour or so. (Which of course leaves them reasonably vulnerable to being destroyed by ordinary means.) It also should dispel magical effects in place on the caster. And perhaps even suppress the caster's magic items just like the targets'. If you decide to leave off that last part, you could also add a small XP cost to the spell.
Gate -> ban the summoning function unless you have some way to limit it.
Foresight -> probably OK, the duration isn't that long.
Shapechange -> replace with something from the PHBII Polymorph line of spells.
Time Stop -> increase casting time to 1 round. Add a small XP cost (100?).

FdL
2007-04-28, 03:54 PM
(...) Players aren't broken. Players are the ones who should be able to have fun being creative. The game is broken because obvious solutions to what are supposed to be difficult problems are easily available in the rules, which often causes DMs to punish players for doing exactly what they're supposed to be doing.

I think creative use of the rules is important too. What kills the fun in the game is the (ab)use of the rules in detriment of the collective fun that the game is. And that is a mentality that comes from video games, where you are playing alone against a machine that's rigid, stupid and generally unfair, and one of the alternatives to win against it is taking as much advantage as you can of it, be it legit or not. Which kills fun anyway, but then you're the only victim of it (unless it's an MMORPG, where this happens a lot, but IMHO are not fun whatsoever because they are designed with this exact philosophy in mind.).

So understanding a session of D&D as a friendly social interaction in which the aim is to have fun playing the game, breaking anything should be out of the question and everyone should play with good will in mind regarding a set of rules that are not perfect.

That's my opinion on it.

JaronK
2007-04-28, 04:07 PM
I think creative use of the rules is important too. What kills the fun in the game is the (ab)use of the rules in detriment of the collective fun that the game is. And that is a mentality that comes from video games, where you are playing alone against a machine that's rigid, stupid and generally unfair, and one of the alternatives to win against it is taking as much advantage as you can of it, be it legit or not. Which kills fun anyway, but then you're the only victim of it (unless it's an MMORPG, where this happens a lot, but IMHO are not fun whatsoever because they are designed with this exact philosophy in mind.).

So understanding a session of D&D as a friendly social interaction in which the aim is to have fun playing the game, breaking anything should be out of the question and everyone should play with good will in mind regarding a set of rules that are not perfect.

That's my opinion on it.

How exactly do you consider using Shivering Touch, a touch spell that does 3d6 dex damage with no save, to kill a target with a poor touch AC and low dex abuse of the rules? It's just using the right tool for the job. Is that somehow not legit, or abusive, or out of character for a Wizard who's being threatened by a dragon?

The answer is that it's not abusive, it's not illegit, it's not out of character. It's just too powerful.

JaronK

FdL
2007-04-28, 04:48 PM
Then it's not "the right tool for the job", as it would break the game in which it is used. :)

I sort of agree with you, but what I'm saying is that spells are only broken if players choose to bring them into the game and DMs allow them to.

Then there's the fact that these rules are made to be used in a given context of a real game, which in turn uses a system. We're not playing the books, lists of spells vs. abstract builds. There are plenty more things happening in a gaming table that preclude the circumstances in which a player would use a broken spell, even if allowed.

In the end, yes, I think it's an abuse that a level 3 spell from a splatbook allows a caster to defeat a dragon singlehanded. But at least that won't happen in my table.

Jack Mann
2007-04-28, 04:52 PM
So, the spells are only broken if you use them..?

JaronK
2007-04-28, 06:36 PM
Then it's not "the right tool for the job", as it would break the game in which it is used. :)

I think Jack said it best there... the spell is only broken if someone uses it?


In the end, yes, I think it's an abuse that a level 3 spell from a splatbook allows a caster to defeat a dragon singlehanded. But at least that won't happen in my table.

Wait, the spell is not broken, but it's an abuse that it exists?

JaronK

Draz74
2007-04-28, 07:10 PM
Then it's not "the right tool for the job", as it would break the game in which it is used. :)


Problem is, in character it IS the right tool for the job; the wizard in-game doesn't care if he's "breaking the game."

FdL
2007-04-28, 07:21 PM
I think Jack said it best there... the spell is only broken if someone uses it?

The use depends on the gaming context, as rules are made to be applied. Some people actually don't consider it broken. After some research, I merely consider that spell overpowered. But what's important is that all is relative to what is actually happening in a game.



Wait, the spell is not broken, but it's an abuse that it exists?


Let's put it this way: do you use everything WotC publishes?
What's *your* solution to the existance of broken spells?


Problem is, in character it IS the right tool for the job; the wizard in-game doesn't care if he's "breaking the game."

Granted, that's why one of the simplest options is to leave it out of the game.

Ramza00
2007-04-28, 07:49 PM
Finally, someone who thinks that Teleport is overpowered. I though I was alone in that.

Teleport isn't broken, it is overpowered. Making all teleportation spells be two levels higher should fix them.

Ramza00
2007-04-28, 07:54 PM
Nobody mention resilient sphere? Damn good spell, much better almost always than forcecage since its 4th lvl and doesn't have a material component.

Does have a reflex save, but against most melee people this isn't a problem.

You use resillent sphere against everyone except the BBEG which you shell out the amber dust to make a real forcecage.

The_Snark
2007-04-28, 08:01 PM
Nobody mention resilient sphere? Damn good spell, much better almost always than forcecage since its 4th lvl and doesn't have a material component.

Does have a reflex save, but against most melee people this isn't a problem.

You use resillent sphere against everyone except the BBEG which you shell out the amber dust to make a real forcecage.

It's the save. With the save, it just becomes another save-or-you're-dead spell (not always dead, but out of the fight, at least). There's already tons of those, some of them lower-level. It's still a good spell, though, because it's Reflex and it's tough to destroy/get out of.

Ramza00
2007-04-28, 08:05 PM
It's the save. With the save, it just becomes another save-or-you're-dead spell (not always dead, but out of the fight, at least). There's already tons of those, some of them lower-level. It's still a good spell, though, because it's Reflex and it's tough to destroy/get out of.

Yes its another save, its the save though the least amount of people have, and it spews certain death against melee.

Yes forcecage is great, resilient sphere is better 80% of the time

JaronK
2007-04-28, 08:29 PM
The use depends on the gaming context, as rules are made to be applied. Some people actually don't consider it broken. After some research, I merely consider that spell overpowered. But what's important is that all is relative to what is actually happening in a game.

I don't get what you're saying here. Are you saying that as long as you don't use the spell on targets with poor dexterity, it's okay? That's like saying a spell that's first level, kills any living target outright with no save, and does 1d6 damage to undead is not broken, and is just overpowered... it's only broken if you use it on living targets.


Let's put it this way: do you use everything WotC publishes?
What's *your* solution to the existance of broken spells?

For a start, I acknowledge that they're broken, instead of blaming my players, which is really what you're doing here (It's not broken unless you use it!). Then I remove them or nerf them until they're more appropriate.

JaronK

Tor the Fallen
2007-04-28, 10:06 PM
Hitting AC5 is not the hardest thing in the world.

I've always ruled that dropping a rock on someone works as a falling block trap vs. one square, at a +7 to hit (no other modifiers may be added).

Hario
2007-04-28, 10:51 PM
So why hasn't anyone brought up Otto's Irrisistable dance yet? Its pretty much a time stop on one enemy, hey big badguy? did you want to do nothing but dance for 5 Rounds? This is just as bad as Shivering Touch, but this doesn't do damage so its debatable which one is truely worse, yes I know shivering touch is a lvl 3 and Dance is 8, but there are Creatures who can withstand 18 Dex Damage.

Ramza00
2007-04-28, 11:04 PM
Irrisistable Dance is Wiz 8, Bard 6. Not accessible to lvl 15 or so without some tricks.

It a very good spell, especially with arcane reach from archmage

AllisterH
2007-04-29, 06:27 AM
There are two types of "brokeness". One that comes about because of abuse of a spell by a rules lawyer and one that is inherent in the spell itself.

I'll give an exmple with the same spell :smallsmile:

Shapechange
Option 1 abuse: Change into a Balor, drop sword, change into any other creature, change back into a balor, drop new sword again. Repeat for as long as the spell is active. Result: Vast monetary wealth is netted.

This abuse though isn't what the spell was designed for and really, this is a player problem.

Option 2 abuse: Hmm...I'll shapechange into X and since I gain all the Su abilites, I now can go Ethereal etc. etc. There are a lot of creatures in the game that have Su abilities that match 7th level and above spells. Even for a wizard at 18th level, she's going to only know a few 7th level spells. Shapechange demolishes this and thus, you have a spell that can duplicate other 9th level spells but doesn't have the xp cost.

This abuse is inherent in the spell itself. The spell was designed for people to shapechange into creatures and it isnt the player's fault that the designrs create creatures with theose Su abilities.

Curmudgeon
2007-05-03, 08:36 AM
Hitting AC5 is not the hardest thing in the world.
Why would that matter unless the character you're targeting has a 5 AC? The 5' square of ground below doesn't have a 5 AC, and hitting the square with a rock certainly doesn't mean you've hit everything on that square.

D&D has rules for attacking enemies. It also has rules for traps. Dropping a rock in combat doesn't use the rules for traps, but rather the rules for missile attacks.

Draz74
2007-05-03, 12:16 PM
Why would that matter unless the character you're targeting has a 5 AC?

The comment about hitting AC 5 was made when someone claimed that a spell wasn't overpowered vs. dragons because it required a successful attack roll.

Dragons DO have 5 AC. For touch attacks. Give or take a couple, depending on their specific size. And it's that "touch" attack property of many spells that makes them overpowered.

Curmudgeon
2007-05-03, 04:48 PM
I've always ruled that dropping a rock on someone works as a falling block trap vs. one square, at a +7 to hit (no other modifiers may be added).
This doesn't seem fair at all. There are rules for traps. For instance, traps have DCs: to find with Search, and to disable with Disable Device. Magic traps permit a saving throw in order to avoid the effect. Traps also have (steep) costs to create. Dropping rocks on someone doesn't qualify in any of these respects.

If you're trying to hit someone with a (large) rock, that's a missile attack. Use the missile attack rules.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-03, 08:10 PM
Why would that matter unless the character you're targeting has a 5 AC? The 5' square of ground below doesn't have a 5 AC, and hitting the square with a rock certainly doesn't mean you've hit everything on that square.
It does if whatever is falling is larger than the square.

Curmudgeon
2007-05-05, 02:54 AM
... hitting the square with a rock certainly doesn't mean you've hit everything on that square.
It does if whatever is falling is larger than the square.
No, not even then. The falling object has to extend more than the diagonal of the square in all directions from its center of impact to ensure that it's going to cover all of the square. There's zero chance that a 5' cube is going to fall so it covers all of a particular 5' square on the ground. You'll need something big enough to also cover all the surrounding squares in all directions -- a 15' diameter falling object -- to ensure that you cover a single 5' square on the ground regardless of where the center of impact is.

PinkysBrain
2007-05-05, 03:25 AM
Hardly a problem.

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-05, 05:12 AM
You only need the boulder to be more than 7.07 feet. Does that satisfy his highness? ;)

ChomZ
2007-05-05, 01:29 PM
Don't let you're caster be a spell weaver and specialize in casting quickened magic missiles (I've seen a character that could het an opponent with over 30 magic missiles in a round.. or sumthing)

hehe

Caelestion
2007-05-05, 03:03 PM
Don't let you're caster be a spell weaver and specialize in casting quickened magic missiles (I've seen a character that could het an opponent with over 30 magic missiles in a round.. or sumthing)

hehe
I realise that your comment is stated deliberately to provoke comment (and probably facetious anyway), but I'll bite. How?

AtomicKitKat
2007-05-05, 10:04 PM
Spell Weaver has up to 6th level spellcasting as a Sorceror 12. I guess he uses every slot available to fire Magic Missile(one hand per level of the spell), after which he is now limited to a few Level 1 spells, and then has to start using 2 hands per spell, etc. Since he's level 12(effectively), he would fire 5 missiles per spell, for 5*6=30 missiles a round.

Curmudgeon
2007-05-06, 02:31 AM
You only need the boulder to be more than 7.07 feet. Does that satisfy his highness? ;)
I have no idea who "his highness" is, but the boulder needs to be twice that diameter (15' when you round up) unless you can establish that its center hits exactly the center of the target square. If you only establish that it's centered somewhere on the square, the radius needs to be more than the diagonal of a square.

I apologize for my earlier, incorrect figure. My feeble excuse is that I'd just returned from giving blood and my brain was a bit low on oxygen.

jlousivy
2007-05-06, 02:55 AM
broken spells:
shivering touch-oh, it's just a dragon, no biggie!

alterself(assuming your spellcasters have the knowlege of creatures with the same type--but with wings like avariel elves) who needs fly?

glibb-not a wizard spell, granted to anyone usefull and it would become a problem. HEY! I'm the brother you haven't had for your entire life, even though i'm an orc and you're an elf. REALLY cool?!

someone earlier said disjunction..... you are forgetting one of the big time rules. players don't use disjunction, DM doesn't use disjunction.

Yahzi
2007-05-06, 07:33 PM
I think I'm going to start a thread to discuss this but I'll say it here first as it is relevant to the OP's question.
Those are some good points, Tippy.