Did Belkar cause Roy’s death?

[Admiral W.]

Given the circumstances of Roy’s death, I know that the very idea that Belkar could be responsible for it sounds absurd. However, when I read #443, while I was shocked like everyone else, I also thought back to some disturbing hints that Belkar may be responsible for it (if indirectly). So the question is what evidence is there to convict Belkar? Well this comes down to the prophecy, and an interesting hint on #429.

While trying to find where Xykon was going, each of the party members was given the answer to one question. Belkar’s question was: “Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko’s stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?” (#331) To which the Oracle responded “yes”. Now we can rule out to some degree of certainty “Miko’s stupid horse” and Miko. Why Miko, because she is living a disgraceful life, and it would be likely be crueller, in Belkar’s mind, to keep her alive. The Oracle is an unlikely target, unless Rich Burlew is planning some ironic twist, which is unlikely. Thus, we are left with Roy and Vaarsuvius, so it would logically follow that with Roy dead Vaarsuvius is the target. However what if Belkar’s prophecy has already come true?

Well that was when I remembered I line at the end of 429. A line that, at that the time I thought was out of place. In that strip Belkar encourages Roy to jump on the dragon, and even offers him a “Ring of Jumping +20” to do it. Now giving out a ring like this is not a simple thing, not only is such a ring worth a ton of money (by DnD rules), but Belkar is unlikely to give away anything if he does not have to. Also Belkar has very little opinion as to who wins; it can’t be said that he particularly likes the people of Azure city. Presumably Belkar has some ulterior motive. And of course he does, in the last panel we learn that Belkar made a bet with the fugitive. So it would appear that Belkar made a bet with this guy to see if he could make Roy jump on the dragon.

Now jumping on an undead dragon, to fight a lich a number of levels above you is generally a bad idea for any PC. Belkar would have known this, yet he give Roy the since of urgency so that Roy would make the jump; a jump that caused his death. Therefore we can conclude that Belkar’s actions, that is to say, his bet, led to Roy’s death. Belkar caused Roy’s death, the prophecy is fulfilled.

In Belkar’s defence it can be said that he only trying for a profit and he may even have thought that Roy would be able to kill Xykon. And there is no evidence that Belkar would actually what to kill Roy. However, to cause death, one does not need to what death to cause it. Belkar’s actions still led to the death of Roy. Now it could also be argued that because the death was an indirect result, Belkar did not directly cause the death. However it is unlikely that Rich Burlew would ever have Belkar directly kill any of the characters in the prophecy, simply because that would make Belkar appear evil in a non-comical way. Therefore any death caused by Belkar would have to be indirect; it is just more ironic that way.

So from the arguments presented above I think that Belkar’s prophecy has been fulfilled. Belkar caused Roy's death.

[spmyke]

Sure. Belkar is just as guilty as every other person or creature that has, in some fashion, influenced Roy in any particular way to eventually encounter Xykon and do battle with him.

Edit: spelling.

[Legendary]

I believe that his prophecy hasn't necessarily been fufilled. He can kill more.

For example:

Roy has been killed.
V will die when Belkar does something stupid. Comes back w/ ultimate arcane power.
Miko will attempt a getaway on a stupider horse than Windstriker, and Belkar will kill it.
Belkar will continue to frustrate Miko to such a point that whether or not he kills her or she commits suicide, he will be responisble.
The Oracle will be killed in the batch of epilogue comics at the end of the series, because Belkar will be mad that he didn't get to properly kill ANY of his targets.


Just a fun thought.

[archon_huskie]

It's true Belkar asked if he was going to be responsible for a list of people's deaths. He could be responsible for the deaths of more than one of them.

[Innis Cabal]

in a manner of speaking....no

[Fineous Orlon]

Re: Did Belkar cause Roy’s death?

Yes, because: Giving the ring set it in motion, set a sequence in motion that was VERY likely to be bad for Roy.

Prophecies often come true in ways that those concerned do not anticipate or particularly enjoy or profit from.

Just because Roy was happy about getting the ring for the jump does not make getting [or giving] the ring less causal.

Belkar might enjoy more some more direct method of causing Roy's death, [or maybe did not even really want to kill Roy at that moment], but the prophecy has come true regardless of his, or his fans' feelings. Belkar did not ask if he would enjoy said death, directly deal the damage, or even want one of those targets dead at the moment when actually he causes the death.

On the other hand, Belkar might see Roy's body [or have seen the fall] and say to himself, "Sweet, I knew it! That lich clocked him good!" He has shown himself to be a bit of a manipulative little psychopath recently, with some view downstream enabling him to plan a bit.

[Kreistor]

Then Belkar is going to jail for murder? Being responsible for Roy's death means the courts will blame him.

I don't think so. Not even close.

If Roy had died from the attempt to jump onto the dragon, then you wuld have a case, but he made that jump, so Belkar's involvement is done with. Roy chose to place himself in that position and he likewise could have chosen to extricate himself.

To be responsible, Belkar must be closely linked with the event that killed Roy, not loosely involved with a previous event that placed Roy in that situation.

Roy's death was caused by:
1) Roy overestimating Xykon's reliance on the dragon.
2) Xykon's destruction of his own mount.
3) Meteor Swarm damage.

Belkar is not rlated to any of those.

[Fineous Orlon]

Then Belkar is going to jail for murder? Being responsible for Roy's death means the courts will blame him.

Why, exactly? Do the courts hold the same standard of responsibilty as prophecy holds for an unstated amount of causation?

Prophecies often do not mean what those involved think they mean, and the questions asked may not have been the best questions to ask.

For instance, in 331, Belkar did not ask if he was going to be the MAIN or SOLE cause of death for one of the mentioned, nor did he ask if he was going to ENJOY said death, or the moment of said death.

There is no question, however, in my mind that
Belkar suggesting Roy take the ring, and Belkar letting Roy have the ring was ONE of the causes of Roy's death.


All I'm saying is that is probably good enough for the prophecy. That Belkar can whine about it makes it perhaps funnier, it does not make it less valid as prophecies go.

[Avatar God]

Factor, yes. Cause, no.

Of course, if you define cause as "any thing that, in any way, led to another even that led to another event that [snip] led to Roy's death," then, yes, Belkar is responsible. But I can't bring myself to define it that way :smallsmile:

Of course, the actual cause was probably massive trauma (or... running out of HP), but I'd be willing to count "Xykon" or "Falling off a dragon" as the cause, as well. But I draw the line there! Bah!

[Liliedhe]

I'm with Orlon. Belkar caused Roy's death, because he gave a "conditio sine qua non" for it. If Belkar had not given Roy the ring, Roy would not have fallen from the dragon. And that was all Belkar asked from the Oracle. Not 'do I get to kill Roy'.

As far as legal responsibility is concerned, Belkar probably can't be held responsible. But in the pure mechanistic way he put his question to the Oracle? Yes, of course. And his bet with Grand Larceny guy shows, that he definitely expected Roy to come to grief from this jump. What goes up, must come down - even Belkar, who once fell from this very wall, will know that...

[JohnnyPsycho]

I also vote that Belkar caused Roy's death, for the sheer fact that Roy would never have jumped on the dragon in the first place had Belkar not given him the ring. His actions eventually and inevitably resulted in Roy's death. I agree that Belkar at least had a fairly good idea that Roy would get himself into harm if he did something insanely stupid as to jump on top of the undead dragon being ridden by a powerful lich, even if he never intended for his death.

[Pyrian]

Sure. Belkar is just as guilty as every other person or creature that has, in some fashion, influenced Roy in any particular way to eventually encounter Xykon and do battle with him.

Nonsense. Most of those people did not take deliberate action to place Roy in a deadly situation which he wouldn't otherwise have gotten into.

Seriously, are we going to absolve Xykon of guilt because casting meteor swarm only "indirectly" killed him? Of course not. Belkar's only one step further, and the intent was clearly there - the meteor swarm was Xykon's tool, and Xykon - and Roy's foolhardiness - were Belkar's tools.

Ultimately, of course, it was the sudden stop at the bottom that did him in. :smallsigh:

I'll be interested to see Belkar's opinion on the occurrence.

[Orzel]

Belkar causing the death of Roy is like saying an axesmith caused the death of a lumberjacked tree.

[Rad]

Is it possible to add a poll to the thread? If not I think it would be interesting to start one.

To avoid misunderstandings; the question is: "is the prophecy Belkar received from the oracle fulfilled by Roy's death?". My answer is yes, it is.
Obviously that is not preventing Belkar from causing the deaths of many more people, including the others mentioned in the prophecy, but now he does not have to happen. Bekar knew that jumping on the dragon was going to result in harm for Roy (maybe he didn't intend death), talked him into it (did not take a great effort) and gave him the means to do it, which nobody else nearby had. His actions were practically the only factors that made Roy duel Xykon, so he gets to at least cause the duel.
As Xykon himself points out, the duel has not many possible outcomes, so Belkar results causing Roy's death, in a very distorted-prophecy-like way.
Whether this would count for conviction in a trial is irrelevant for the wording of the prophecy (and my personal answer is, no, that would not be enough).

I am also confident that nobody guessed that Haley's prophecy was about to come true when she accepted the date with Nale, first of all Haley herself!

[Geilan]

On the same note, could we not also blame the gods for creating the Snarl, and therefore the plotline? Or Redcloak, for helping Xykon escape earlier in the series, or maybe even Dorukan for not killing Xykon again. Belkar may have been an indirect CAUSE of Roy's death, but it was also a factor of many other influences. (existing, the world existing, 20d6 falling damage, meteor storm) Having the ring might not have changed much, because they simply could have followed and encountered him in the throne room, where some of them still may have died.

[Rad]

Of course if Xykon had been predicted that he was going to cause Roy's death thet prophecy would ALSO have been fulfilled.

Belkar did not ask to be the ONLY cause of their death and you'll agree that he did contribute more to that effect than, say, the Snarl.

[JohnnyPsycho]

It's not a question of Belkar being the sole reason or contributor to Roy's death, but whether the wording of the prophesy has been fulfilled by Belkar's actions.

[Grendita]

In an Indirect way Belkar WAS a cause of Roys Death, that is often enough for prophecies.

[Threeshades]

As I see that you can only be THE cause or just a FACTOR. And apparently we have a lot of factors starting from Redcloak's plan over Haley's idea, to Sangwaan's discovery of the dragon, to Durkon casting invisibility purge, to Roy actually planning to attack the dragon and THEN Belkar giving him the ring for that, and finally Xykon blasting the dragon.
Belkar was a factor, but not the cause.
His influence to the whole plan was none bigger that those of Haley, Durkon, Redcloak, Sangwaan, Xykon and Roy himself. Actually Roy and Redcloak had most of the influence, because Redcloak created the whole situation in the first place, and it was Roy's idea to attack Xykon in melee combat.

[Zictor]

On the same note, could we not also blame the gods for creating the Snarl, and therefore the plotline? Or Redcloak, for helping Xykon escape earlier in the series, or maybe even Dorukan for not killing Xykon again. Belkar may have been an indirect CAUSE of Roy's death, but it was also a factor of many other influences. (existing, the world existing, 20d6 falling damage, meteor storm) Having the ring might not have changed much, because they simply could have followed and encountered him in the throne room, where some of them still may have died.


You and most people following your line of arguement, seem to miss 2 points that are quite important:

1: According to the habit of trying to outwit one another with grammatical constructions, Players and DM end up creating weird grammatical constructs and strecthing text interpretation to absurd limits in order to see their points of view prevail.

Taking Belkar's careful wording into account, we can assume that he may cause one, two or all of those deaths. Which means that none of the others are safe.

2: Although all those events you quoted could be called "causes" ( in an extremely broad sense), they are all part of a natural course of things. The same thing can be said of everything that happened after the jump.

Come on, leading a PC to jump on an undead dragon to fight a Lich that has at least 6 or 7 character levels(probably more) than said PC is pretty much like pushing the guy into the chamber of a drangon and locking the door. Would you expect the guy to come out unscathed?

Belkar giving Roy the ring was a turning point. Nobody can say that what happened afterwards wasn't the natural course of things.

My opinion is obvious: Belkar did cause Roy's death. Doesn't make for a court case (of course) but does it for the prophecy.

[cheese534]

well no. obviously xykon killed him, maybe Belkar was just intending on killing him.

[Tempus Thales]

“Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko’s stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?” (#331) To which the Oracle responded “yes”.


{From Webster.com}
Main Entry: 2cause
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): caused; caus·ing
1 : to serve as a cause or occasion of <cause an accident>
2 : to compel by command, authority, or force <caused him to resign>
- caus·er noun


So, did Belkar CAUSE Roy's death and fulfill, at least in part, the oracle's prediction? Perhaps. But at best it's a stretch.

Which, as we all know, oracle's are infamous for doing.



For my own part, too much of a stretch.


Hinjo is the one that gave Roy the order for him and his team to take out Xykon, did Hinjo cause Roy's death or was it just one more piece in a series of events which led to the terrible terrible tragedy?

When Xykon flies away on the dragon Roy says before Belkar has made so much as a peep, "Damn it! Where is the wizard with a Fly spell when you really need one?"

Which, to me, would indicate that had there been a wizard handy Roy would have made use of it.

"Well, if he had a fly spell, he wouldn't have fallen and died!", you say. Perhaps. It's equally possible (unless I'm mistaken about lich abilities) that Xykon would have made use of a dispel while Roy was in mid-air and saved himself some distraction AND kept the head on his dragon.

So the wizard wasn't available and Belkar was able to offer his ring without which Roy would not have attempted the jump (most likely). Do we blame the wizard for not being present?

So here we are at Belkar. Our dear sweet kind Belkar who had a bet. Most likely this was a spur of the moment bet made in the brief time after hearing Roy say "Damn it! Where is the wizard with a Fly spell when you really need one?". Something to the effect of "Hey buddy, I bet you 10 gp that he'll take my ring and jump onto the dragon!", to which the guy, with great disbelief that anyone would take such an action said "You're on!". If we were to assume that Belkar would not have given Roy the ring without the bet, we could place blame on the other guy for accepting the bet.



In my opinion, Belkar did not give the ring to Roy with the intent to kill him, or otherwise cause his death... he did not give the ring to Roy simply to win a bet (perhaps this was the case, although being a sadist does not preclude generosity).

Belkar gave the ring to Roy because Roy wanted to go after Xykon. Belkar is not the wisened sage in the party to hold a brief internal debate about the pros and cons of jumping onto an undead dragon to do battle with a lich. Enough thought to make a quick coin or two? Yes. No reason to think any more on it as Belkar looks out for Belkar (sometimes in a shortsighted fashion) and nobody else.


So, in my opinion who was the major contributer to Roy's death? To me the answer is simple. Roy was.

Roy , ever the man of action, did what he determined would fulfill the mission gave to him by Hinjo.
While a tactician at heart, the battle had begun and the time for plans and strategies was over, at that moment Roy acted in a manner that was VERY consistent with what we've seen from Roy in the past.
Roy would most likely be preturbed that some would place the blame for his death on anyone but himself. He made his own decisions and accepted the consequences for those decisions.


Well, there we have my once-every-six-months post, and my $.02 as well. FLAME ON!



a brief addition:

by caused, I am going with "serving as an occaision of"

Obviously, when it comes down to it, what caused Roy's death was the rapid deceleration he experienced when coming into contact with the ground.

did the flames get higher? oh, it burns! :)

[Fineous Orlon]

Some interesting points, to be sure:


“Do I get to cause the death of any of the following: Miko, Miko’s stupid horse, Roy, Vaarsuvius, or you?” (#331) To which the Oracle responded “yes”.


{From Webster.com}
Main Entry: 2cause
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): caused; caus·ing
1 : to serve as a cause or occasion of <cause an accident>
2 : to compel by command, authority, or force <caused him to resign>
- caus·er noun


So, did Belkar CAUSE Roy's death and fulfill, at least in part, the oracle's prediction? Perhaps. But at best it's a stretch.....

In my opinion, Belkar did not give the ring to Roy with the intent to kill him, or otherwise cause his death... he did not give the ring to Roy simply to win a bet (perhaps this was the case, although being a sadist does not preclude generosity).

Belkar gave the ring to Roy because Roy wanted to go after Xykon. Belkar is not the wisened sage in the party to hold a brief internal debate about the pros and cons of jumping onto an undead dragon to do battle with a lich. Enough thought to make a quick coin or two? Yes. No reason to think any more on it as Belkar looks out for Belkar (sometimes in a shortsighted fashion) and nobody else.

So why would that mitigate fulfilling a prophecy? Prophecies are often unintentionally fulfilled by the actors in context. Belkar's intent has little to do with whether or not the prophecy has been fulfilled.

Plus, Belkar is able to plan a bit down the road on subjects near and dear to him. We've seen it. Fulfilling the prophecy does not depend on that, though.


So, in my opinion who was the major contributer to Roy's death? To me the answer is simple. Roy was.

...


by caused, I am going with "serving as an occaision [sic] of"

Obviously, when it comes down to it, what caused Roy's death was the rapid deceleration he experienced when coming into contact with the ground.


The prophecy did not deal with whether or not Belkar would be the sole cause or a major contributor or even the last contributor [like the ground, if you must] in the death of one of the targets.

Lastly, although the prophecy has been fulfilled, that does not mean that Belkar's murderous inclinations towards some folks he knows are quenched...

Good discussion.

[Fineous Orlon]

It's not a question of Belkar being the sole reason or contributor to Roy's death, but whether the wording of the prophesy has been fulfilled by Belkar's actions.

Well and briefly said.

[Fawkes]

This argument is in several other topics, and none of them are making any progress. It's a semantic argument, ergo it cannot be solved.

In summation: STOP THE MADNESS!

Thank you.

[Pyrian]

As I see that you can only be THE cause or just a FACTOR.

Right, because a semantic argument you made up - a whole new definition of "cause" distinct from how it's normally used - is somehow binding upon the oracle? I don't think so.

Belkar's action was distinct from the rest of the possible causes (aside from Xykon himself) in that Belkar actively meant Roy harm.

[Fawkes]

Hey! HEY! What did I JUST say?

[Threeshades]

This argument is in several other topics, and none of them are making any progress. It's a semantic argument, ergo it cannot be solved.

In summation: STOP THE MADNESS!

Thank you.

must.... resist.... ah what the hell...


Madness? THIS - IS - OOTS-BOARD!!! *kicks mechafox into a big dark pit that is there for no apparent reason*

[Tharj TreeSmiter]

It's not semantics is motive. What did Belkar think would happen and what did he want to happen when he gave roy the ring of jumping and only Rich knows that.

[jindra34]

It's not semantics is motive. What did Belkar think would happen and what did he want to happen when he gave roy the ring of jumping and only Rich knows that.

its semantics... whether or not you anticipate something happening you can still cause it... we are just not agreeing on the definiton of "cause"...

[spmyke]

Nonsense. Most of those people did not take deliberate action to place Roy in a deadly situation which he wouldn't otherwise have gotten into.

Seriously, are we going to absolve Xykon of guilt because casting meteor swarm only "indirectly" killed him? Of course not. Belkar's only one step further, and the intent was clearly there - the meteor swarm was Xykon's tool, and Xykon - and Roy's foolhardiness - were Belkar's tools.

"One step?" Giving a ring to Roy so that he could fight, and possibly destroy, Xykon is only "one step" away from casting an ultra-deadly spell at him? Really? "One step?" What kind of crazy are you? Kooky Crazy (TM) or Extra Kooky Crazy (TM)?

And yes, I know that Roy, being a moderate-level fighter, could never destroy a near-epic lich wizard. I know this. But, I imagine that if, after the battle, Roy found out that Belkar had a means to get to Xykon and didn't share it with him, he would of been a bit irked.

Edit: in response to the 'Cut the Flaming' thread, I just want to express Pure Happiness and Joy (TM) to Pyrian.

[warmachine]

No. Saying Belkar caused Roy's death is an abuse of the meaning of the word 'cause'. If you suggest something to someone too stupid, ignorant or rash to know better, you are responsible for the consequences. If I give a can opener and a tin of dog food to a toddler and the dog starves, I'm responsible and caused the dog to starve. If I give those items to a teenager and the dog starves, the teenager is responsible and caused the starvation. Roy was not stupid nor impulsive. He knew Belkar is evil and reckless. He knew Xykon would not hold back, the odds of beating Xykon were poor and chance of escape even less. Roy, as well as Xykon, caused his own death.

[Pyrian]

Giving a ring to Roy so that he could fight, and possibly destroy, Xykon is only "one step" away from casting an ultra-deadly spell at him? Really? "One step?"Yes. He allowed Roy to go after Xykon, and this resulted in Xykon blasting him when he otherwise wouldn't have. One. Step.


And yes, I know that Roy, being a moderate-level fighter, could never destroy a near-epic lich wizard. I know this.Thus, there's no excuse.


But, I imagine that if, after the battle, Roy found out that Belkar had a means to get to Xykon and didn't share it with him, he would of been a bit irked....Albeit alive.


Roy was not stupid nor impulsive.Roy isn't impulsive? Compared to Belkar, maybe. Anyway, I suggest you review that assessment in light of Roy jumping onto an undead dragon carrying a lich.


Roy, as well as Xykon, caused his own death....As well as Belkar.


STOP THE MADNESS!This is an internet forum. Madness is not only appropriate, it's really the default setting.

[jindra34]

This is an internet forum. Madness is not only appropriate, it's really the default setting.

Further more the level of madness has not yet reached that over the dervent discussion of Miko's future class... this is mild madness for the oots forum.

[spmyke]

Yes. He allowed Roy to go after Xykon, and this resulted in Xykon blasting him when he otherwise wouldn't have. One. Step.

/shrug

You're allowed to be crazy.

[jindra34]

/shrug

You're allowed to be crazy.

like all the "cauuse Roy death" threads this one has degenerated into semantics...

[Pyrian]

You're allowed to be crazy.

Truth frequently is. :smallbiggrin:

[EntilZha]

Some good arguments on both sides, but imho the jury is still out.....

[JohnnyPsycho]

Wow, I can't believe people are still debating this. I still think Belkar fulfilled his prophesy, even if he never fully intended to kill Roy or was the end-all contributing factor to the death of Roy. He was a part of the mechanism that resulted in Roy's death, and sure, you may continue to debate just how involved he was in that mechanism, but the end result is Roy's dead, and he wouldn't have jumped on the dragon had Belkar not handed him the ring.
That's all... proceed with your discussion..

[Stormwolf]

What would be even more amusing is if Roy gets zombified and Belkar gets to kill the zombie-Roy :)