What Level Adjustment Should a Large Race Have?

[Gale]

I've wanted to make a player race for awhile now that was Large in size but only came with a level adjustment of +1, however I'm not entirely sure this is reasonable. I couldn't find any races that fit this description, the closet thing are the Half-Ogres from Races of Destiny which have a level adjustment of +2. There is of course the Half-Minotaur template from Dragon Magazine; it only has a level adjustment of +1, but I feel this template is widely considered to be overpowered.

Is it possible then to make a Large player race with only a level adjustment of +1? If Orcs were considered a Large race for example, and all their other racial abilities remained the same, would it warrant a LA of +1 or +2?

[PaucaTerrorem]

I very well could be wrong here, but I believe large is a +1 in itself.

[Venger]

I've wanted to make a player race for awhile now that was Large in size but only came with a level adjustment of +1, however I'm not entirely sure this is reasonable. I couldn't find any races that fit this description, the closet thing are the Half-Ogres from Races of Destiny which have a level adjustment of +2. There is of course the Half-Minotaur template from Dragon Magazine; it only has a level adjustment of +1, but I feel this template is widely considered to be overpowered.

Is it possible then to make a Large player race with only a level adjustment of +1? If Orcs were considered a Large race for example, and all their other racial abilities remained the same, would it warrant a LA of +1 or +2?

of course it's reasonable. let melee have nice things.

while half-giants aren't large, they have powerful build, letting them use large weapons, which is the thing most people care about.

I'd play a large dragonborn water orc at la 1 if you let me, but it'd still be a suboptimal choice since that's not better than a feat.


I very well could be wrong here, but I believe large is a +1 in itself.

what are you talking about ?

[Extra Anchovies]

The Half-Ogre and Half-Minotaur templates are both pretty good at LA +1 if you rule that the template's ability adjustments override the standard adjustments for going up a size category. They're a bit too strong if you let them get that extra +8 strength.

[martixy]

Large in itself does very little.

Heck, you could just make it a trait. (Make it a BAB +1 prerequisite if you want too.)

And let me echo the above sentiment: Just let the melees have nice things once in a while.

And Half-Minotaur is not OP. See above.

The way you feel may be because there are not very many other decent choices, so eventually it always comes up.

Edit: Extra Anchovies - How exactly does that work. I've seen that mentioned in many places, but have yet to find a source for the stat bonuses from the size bump.
Edit2: Nevermind, found it. I have conflicting feelings about it.

[Extra Anchovies]

And Half-Minotaur is not OP. See above.

Indeed. It's balanced at +4 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, but not at +12 Str, -2 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int.

[atemu1234]

Large size on its own, with the stat adjustments from Medium, is worth about +1. Further adjustments usually make it +2. On the bright side, on most melee characters level adjustment is less punishing, due to the more linear nature of their abilities as opposed to casters. Downside being caster supremacy.

[Venger]

Large size on its own, with the stat adjustments from Medium, is worth about +1. Further adjustments usually make it +2. On the bright side, on most melee characters level adjustment is less punishing, due to the more linear nature of their abilities as opposed to casters. Downside being caster supremacy.

large alone is not worth +1LA. it makes you more vulnerable without offering much in return, and now robs you of a level too. you can't honestly think half-ogre is worth 2 character levels.

the second part's where you really lose me. since mundies are weaker anyway, it's okay if they get screwed by picking a suboptimal race. huh?

[atemu1234]

large alone is not worth +1LA. it makes you more vulnerable without offering much in return, and now robs you of a level too. you can't honestly think half-ogre is worth 2 character levels.

the second part's where you really lose me. since mundies are weaker anyway, it's okay if they get screwed by picking a suboptimal race. huh?

I don't like level adjustments, period.

No, the 'weaker, period' bit was a different point. But they lose less power from a Level Adjustment than casters do.

[Taelas]

It depends on whether or not you apply the size change modifiers from growing to large from medium. If you do, that is in and of itself worth at least +1. Large has a few drawbacks but even more benefits, so depending on what else the race does, you could easily end up with LA +2 (assuming that you don't add any racial abilities that are worth +1 or more in and of themselves).

But if you don't, and Large is the only thing the race has, then I honestly wouldn't give it a LA. It would be a strong race, but not really worth +1.

[Vhaidara]

I don't like level adjustments, period.

No, the 'weaker, period' bit was a different point. But they lose less power from a Level Adjustment than casters do.

You see, I would agree.Except for one thing: HP.

So,you're ECL 2? Have fun with your 10+Con mod HP. Especially with your dex penalty from being large, and the size penalty to your AC

[Venger]

I don't like level adjustments, period.

No, the 'weaker, period' bit was a different point. But they lose less power from a Level Adjustment than casters do.

Me neither.

Okay, see, that's what I'm objecting to because it doesn't make any sense. "mundies are weaker than casters, so it's okay to take away their meager abilities" does not compute for me.


It depends on whether or not you apply the size change modifiers from growing to large from medium. If you do, that is in and of itself worth at least +1. Large has a few drawbacks but even more benefits, so depending on what else the race does, you could easily end up with LA +2 (assuming that you don't add any racial abilities that are worth +1 or more in and of themselves).

But if you don't, and Large is the only thing the race has, then I honestly wouldn't give it a LA. It would be a strong race, but not really worth +1.

Yeah, not worth +1 at all.


You see, I would agree.Except for one thing: HP.

So,you're ECL 2? Have fun with your 10+Con mod HP. Especially with your dex penalty from being large, and the size penalty to your AC

and there is that as well. you know who actually needs HP? mundanes.

[Thurbane]

There's at two schools of thought on LA:


Follow WotC's lead and always err on the side of higher LA for pretty much anything.
Be very lenient with LA, especially in regards to anything that benefits melee (since they don't get nice things).



For the former, LA +2 is pretty much the minimum for Large size. FOr the latter, you could get away with LA +1 as long as the race doesn't get too many other advantages.

Maybe the RoD 1/2 Ogre would be more "worth it" if you threw Medium-Large modifiers on to his existing stats (i.e. an additional +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex and +2 natural armor bonus).

[atemu1234]

Me neither.

Okay, see, that's what I'm objecting to because it doesn't make any sense. "mundies are weaker than casters, so it's okay to take away their meager abilities" does not compute for me.



Yeah, not worth +1 at all.



and there is that as well. you know who actually needs HP? mundanes.

They lose less because their abilities scale differently. Yes, they're weaker than casters. But everything in this game is.

[danzibr]

I'm reminded of the large camel-type race in Akashic Mysteries. It's PF, which generally has stronger LA +0 stuff, but not by much.

[Grod_The_Giant]

while half-giants aren't large, they have powerful build, letting them use large weapons, which is the thing most people care about.
Hmm? Larger weapons are generally just one or two extra damage. The nice thing about being large is the extra reach, followed by the size bonus to combat maneuvers (and the ability to use them on larger foes)-- perfect for lockdown builds. I'd probably call it LA +1, especially if you added the usual stat boosts and assorted minor bonuses. Something like a goliath or half-giant is a weak LA +1 with Powerful Build; upgrading that to full-on Large size would probably be about right power-wise.

[Venger]

Hmm? Larger weapons are generally just one or two extra damage. The nice thing about being large is the extra reach, followed by the size bonus to combat maneuvers (and the ability to use them on larger foes)-- perfect for lockdown builds. I'd probably call it LA +1, especially if you added the usual stat boosts and assorted minor bonuses. Something like a goliath or half-giant is a weak LA +1 with Powerful Build; upgrading that to full-on Large size would probably be about right power-wise.

right, which is why I said "most people."

those things you listed don't give mundanes an edge, they throw them a bone. I'd be comfortable allowing a brute type character to burn his human feat to take a large race for LA0 any day.

[SowZ]

A large race with +2 Str, -2 Dex, and insignificant racial features would not be overpowered.

[The Insanity]

Just Large, without any other adjustments or minimal adjustments to Str and Dex, no LA. Just like Small has no LA.

[NomGarret]

Agreed. Large by itself only merits +0, it's the ability bonuses that tend to go along with it that deserve the +1.

[Thurbane]

Maybe the RoD 1/2 Ogre would be more "worth it" if you threw Medium-Large modifiers on to his existing stats (i.e. an additional +8 Str, +4 Con, -2 Dex and +2 natural armor bonus).

So what do people think: would a Half-Ogre with +14 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha and +6 natural armor bonus be worth +2 LA, or still not?

[Vhaidara]

So what do people think: would a Half-Ogre with +14 Str, -4 Dex, +6 Con, -2 Int, -2 Cha and +6 natural armor bonus be worth +2 LA, or still not?

Depends on starting level. Starting at ECL 20? Probably, given the multipliers you can pull from a +7 to Str mod and the fact that you have easy entry into War Hulk for even more Str. Starting at ECL3? Not a chance in hell.

I'd say the break point is around ECL 12

Oh, and, of course, buyoff makes it much more reasonable.

[Rebel7284]

There is a large race with 0 LA. Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. Comes with 3 Racial HD, however. Works well enough for some builds.

Large size is a great thing for meelee. Extra reach is amazing and stuff like trip/knockback bonuses allows for melee to remain viable far longer.

It can be too strong at level 1 especially if it can stack with enlarge person.

The large, +2 str/-2 dex idea works well enough for homebrew, although just allowing LA buyoff is probably simpler. Make it a non-humanoid if worried about enlarge person stacking at the beginning. Expansion still works though.

[Shackel]

If it helps, Pathfinder has a "create a race" system with a kind of point-buy and recommendations that boil down to what should probably be considered a Level Adjustment. A +1 under this is ~20 points, with the recommended +0LA race being between 9-11.

Under that, Large(including +2 Strength, -2 Dex) is 7 points. Gaining reach is another point. So under that system, at least, Large(even with 10ft reach) isn't exactly a +1 LA by itself.

[Venger]

There is a large race with 0 LA. Anthropomorphic Baleen Whale. Comes with 3 Racial HD, however. Works well enough for some builds.

Large size is a great thing for meelee. Extra reach is amazing and stuff like trip/knockback bonuses allows for melee to remain viable far longer.

It can be too strong at level 1 especially if it can stack with enlarge person.

The large, +2 str/-2 dex idea works well enough for homebrew, although just allowing LA buyoff is probably simpler. Make it a non-humanoid if worried about enlarge person stacking at the beginning. Expansion still works though.

But you still can't play it until ECL 4. you cannot play it at level 1.

there is no way enlarge person would work because anthro animals are not humanoids, they are monstrous humanoids.

[Vhaidara]

If it helps, Pathfinder has a "create a race" system with a kind of point-buy and recommendations that boil down to what should probably be considered a Level Adjustment. A +1 under this is ~20 points, with the recommended +0LA race being between 9-11.

Not actually true. Swirverblin (or however you spell it) are 24 RP and effective LA +0.

[SowZ]

Not actually true. Swirverblin (or however you spell it) are 24 RP and effective LA +0.

However, players can min-max the system and get exactly what they want, so what the creators design should have more flex than what players create.

[Necroticplague]

But you still can't play it until ECL 4. you cannot play it at level 1.

there is no way enlarge person would work because anthro animals are not humanoids, they are monstrous humanoids.

Technically, there's nothing to prevent you from playing at ECL3. Wouldn't have any class levels, but still playable.

[Venger]

Technically, there's nothing to prevent you from playing at ECL3. Wouldn't have any class levels, but still playable.

I guess so? I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that though. you wouldn't have any feats or anything.

[Vhaidara]

I guess so? I can't imagine anyone wanting to do that though. you wouldn't have any feats or anything.

You'd have 2. One from your first HD, and one from your third. Feats and ability score increases are based on HD, not class level.

[Venger]

You'd have 2. One from your first HD, and one from your third. Feats and ability score increases are based on HD, not class level.

sorry, should've been more clear: you wouldn't have any class features or anything, it probably wouldn't be something a player would want to do. you would of course have feats from RHD.

[Rebel7284]

sorry, should've been more clear: you wouldn't have any class features or anything, it probably wouldn't be something a player would want to do. you would of course have feats from RHD.

You have +8 Str, +4 Con, +4 Dex, +4 Wis and +9 Natural armor. I feel you can contribute for a level without class features. I think the only thing you are missing over a regular meelee class is weapon proficiencies, but the huge strength boost makes up for it. Also 120 foot blindsight is really really nice.

Also, when I was talking about the enlarge stacking, I meant when creating a homebrew class with 0 LA. Sorry for not indicating the transition more clearly.

As an aside:
Just to be super clear about Half-Ogre, it was printed at least 3 times in different books.
Savage Species +1LA
Dragon Magazine +1LA (same article as half minotaur, same horrible wording about getting MORE boosts when size changes)
Races of Destiny +2LA <- most recent

[Shackel]

Not actually true. Swirverblin (or however you spell it) are 24 RP and effective LA +0.

No kidding? Looked it up and, sure enough, there they are. They are, however, quite the outlier, for the only thing close to them are the Suli. Heck, considering that, racial boost to Dex included, you get +4 to AC, +2 to saving throws, SR 11+character level, the outsider subtype... it's a pretty snazzy deal, all things considered. Constant nondetection and a 1/day deafness/blindness or blur for that pesky boss at lower levels? I mean, at least at levels 1-5, like Pathfinder suggests for when 20RP constitutes a +1 LA, it certainly is deserving of it...

Ah yes, that's another thing with the PF pseudo-LA: it drops an LA for every 5 levels the character is. If a race under it has 20RP, it's considered a +0 LA after level 5: its racial benefits start to lose out to class ones.

[ekarney]

Isn't there a Wu-Jen/Arcane spell that allows you to go up in size categories that could be persisted/extended?

You're looking at exchanging one spell per day/2 days for Large+ size.

Compared to a melee character who has to blow one or two levels just to be large.

"You mean you get to be disgustingly big AND cast reality altering spells?"
"Wait, I have to waste 2 levels just to do a bit more damage?"

I have a +2LA character at the moment, Neanderthal Barbarian||Swordsage, with half-minotaur, feral and wild and I can tell you now, he's still going to be behind the curve since I had to take Swordsage levels on my second line of gestalt in order to counteract the AC lost from being large. So now only am I 2 levels behind, I'll only get to 16th level divine casting on the Swordsage line because of the LA.
Seems like a rip off to me.

[Flickerdart]

Large race is one of those things that's super-powerful at the early levels (when the extra reach, mods to combat maneuvers, and weapon damage are hard to match) but really drops off in usefulness as other means of enlarging for cheaper start to crop up. There are two solutions:

1) LA buyoff. This is exactly the sort of thing it was meant for - front-loaded races whose benefits aren't all that special later on.
2) Allow a character to grow as he levels. Maybe he starts out Large for +1 LA, and becomes Huge later, then Gargantuan, etc.

[Necroticplague]

Most melee templates in general all have that problem. I mean, look at all the good melee templates. Do any of them have considerable scaling abilities? Half-minotaur: bunch of static modifiers. Doesn't scale. Stony: DR/adamantine, decent static stat boosts. Earth Smite scales, but is sadly once a day, for one attack (though admittingly, is pretty potent). Half-goristro: Massive static mods, SLAs scale (but are relatively insignificant and lacking in quantity), otherwise static. Feral: gets more special attacks with RHD (but that means sacrificing more class levels), Darkvision and Fast healing scale, but these last two are negligable (for both, it's more important that you have them than to have a large amount of them).

[atemu1234]

Most melee templates in general all have that problem. I mean, look at all the good melee templates. Do any of them have considerable scaling abilities? Half-minotaur: bunch of static modifiers. Doesn't scale. Stony: DR/adamantine, decent static stat boosts. Earth Smite scales, but is sadly once a day, for one attack (though admittingly, is pretty potent). Half-goristro: Massive static mods, SLAs scale (but are relatively insignificant and lacking in quantity), otherwise static. Feral: gets more special attacks with RHD (but that means sacrificing more class levels), Darkvision and Fast healing scale, but these last two are negligable (for both, it's more important that you have them than to have a large amount of them).

Does Feral specify they must be racial hit dice? In my games we just let hit dice be hit dice and that's it with the template.

[Shackel]

Large race is one of those things that's super-powerful at the early levels (when the extra reach, mods to combat maneuvers, and weapon damage are hard to match) but really drops off in usefulness as other means of enlarging for cheaper start to crop up. There are two solutions:

1) LA buyoff. This is exactly the sort of thing it was meant for - front-loaded races whose benefits aren't all that special later on.
2) Allow a character to grow as he levels. Maybe he starts out Large for +1 LA, and becomes Huge later, then Gargantuan, etc.

That's generally my problem with the "let the melees have nice things/the casters are super OP anyway" points right now: if you're starting at lower levels, for non-optimized play, melees and melee casters(like psychic warrior) are still a pretty credible threat. Indeed, at early levels, if a melee was whipping around 10ft reach, massive Str/Con bonuses and a +3 to AC or something, they'd be nigh-unstoppable unless your DM seriously dropped a color spray/sleep on you. But at later levels, when defense moves from AC to concealment and saving throws, it doesn't mean as much.

[Necroticplague]

Does Feral specify they must be racial hit dice? In my games we just let hit dice be hit dice and that's it with the template.

Partially. Special Qualities (darkvision and fast healing) scale by just normal HD, but you gain Special Attacks (pounce, improved grab, rake, rand) based on 'monster hit die', which are racial hit dice.