Reliably hitting people with high use the force?

[Bellberith]

Basically i am having trouble thinking up encounters outside of other jedi/sith where my players will be reasonably challenged.

Most of them have a 16-21 UtF check at level 6 and it is nearly impossible to hit them without spamming auto-fire / grenades. how can i give non-force users a chance.

[LibraryOgre]

There's options for combined fire (I cannot remember the exact name of the rule) where several people get together and give one person a crazy bonus, in exchange for everyone else effectively missing... Aid Another-type rules for blasters.

[Kyuu Himura]

Flame Throwers

[Bellberith]

There's options for combined fire (I cannot remember the exact name of the rule) where several people get together and give one person a crazy bonus, in exchange for everyone else effectively missing... Aid Another-type rules for blasters.

even with something like aiding the attack roll, they only get a +2 per person aiding... so for a sith trooper or something to have a chance at hitting i would need like 10 or more to aid. they would still have quite a large chance of being deflected.

[Sith_Happens]

Most of them have a 16-21 UtF check at level 6 and it is nearly impossible to hit them without spamming auto-fire / grenades. how can i give non-force users a chance.

So do that. It's what HK-47 recommends after all, and I think he knows a bit more about the subject then most of us do.:smallwink:

[LibraryOgre]

So do that. It's what HK-47 recommends after all, and I think he knows a bit more about the subject then most of us do.:smallwink:

Atton Rand concurs, actually. Grenades. Gas. Targeting others.

[RandomLunatic]

Firstly, I recommend a character sheet audit, because those values seem excessive. A venerable Ithorian with maxed CHA and Skill Focus can only rock a +20 UTF at level 6, so that 21 you mention is a warning flag.


Recitation: First, weapon selection is critical. If I see one more idiot attack a Jedi with a blaster pistol, then I'll kill them myself.So, look at deflect and what it does, and more importantly, doesn't work against. Which is non-autofire area attacks, plus Energy (Sonic) weaponry. And it only works at half effectiveness against autofire. That gives you a lot of choices.

The standout is the Concussion Rifle, from Unknown Regions. I am convinced the writers included it solely as a giant double middle digit to Jedi, because it is devastatingly effective against Force users. It targets FORT, which tends to be a Jedi's lowest defense, it can't be deflected because it is a Sonic weapon, and it automatically knocks them flat on their keister, forcing them to spend actions standing up. That last point is the most insidious, because most Force-based builds are laughably impotent beyond 12 squares, so you can shoot them with a standard, back up with a move, and they have to blow a move to stand up and a move to close in, meaning you can kite them as long as you don't run out of room.

Second place goes to the Electronet (Scum & Villainy), because it is likewise unblockable and chews up actions. If paired with the Pin and Grapple Defense (Legacy) feats, it is even more reliable method of safely holding Jedi at arm's reach to be shot. You don't even need Heavy weapon proficiency to use it-it can be fired from the Micro Grenade Launcher from the same book, although now the damage is so terrible you had better be using Pin shenanigans to make it worthwhile.

The Bronze in the Jedi-killing Olympics is awarded to the snare rifle (S&V again) and pistol (Galaxy of Intrigue), which are also candidates for ranged Pinning shenanigans. Unfortunately, they can be Deflected, so you need another way to combat that.

The Carbonite Rifle (KoTOR) gets an Honorable Mention, as it literally freezes attackers in their tracks. Sadly, it is susceptible to Deflection.

Strong runners up go to the Blaster Cannon, Flechette Launcher (RECG), Rail Detonator Gun (TFU), and Double-Barreled Blaster Carbine for being deflect-proof and dealing solid damage.

Also-rans include sonic weapons, which are deflect-proof but pay for it with weaker damage outputs. The Flamethrower, Pulse Rifle, and Deck Sweeper are also undeflectable, but are Exotic and require getting closer to the glowrods o' doom than is healthy.


So now you got the guns, but how do you hit with them? Glad you asked.

For individual heroic characters, attack bonus optimization is gold, since it opposed attack rolls versus UtF. But there's a few options to tip the scales in your favor.

Overwhelming Assault (Clone Wars) takes two swift actions and inflicts a -5 on any attempt to negate the attack, including force powers.

Precision Fire slaps a -5 penalty on Deflection attempts if you Aim the attack.

And then there's Stymie, which is the bestest Jedi-killer talent in the history of ever. With a swift action, no roll, you can hobble a Jedi's offense and defense, and it has no pre-reqs! What's not to love?:smallbiggrin:

...Besides the fact that to use it, you have to be inside the 12-square threat radius I mentioned earlier.:smallfrown:


Non-heroic mooks will have to fall back on teamwork in order to come out on top die a little slower. Imagine, if you will, a Sith squad composed of the following:
6 Grunts (use Imperial Stormtrooper statistics)
1 Gunner (Heavy Stormtrooper stats. Optionally, replace the light repeater with a repeating carbine.)
1 Grenadier (As Heavy Stormtrooper, but with blaster rifle+grenade launcher instead of repeater. Replace WF (Rifle) and Burst Fire with Pin and Grapple Resistance.)
1 Sergeant (use Imperial Officer stats)

CL 5, serves a party of 4 6th-level heroes a major slice of humble pie.

Here's how it works-the Sergeant gets under cover and uses his Coordinate and Trust talents. Three of Grunts aid each of the heavy weapon troopers, automatically succeeding because of Coordinated Attack, giving a +9 bonus to the main shooters. The gunner braces and lays down autofire, either burst or regular, as the situation dictates, rolling a +16 to attack for either 3d10+1 across a 2x2 area or drilling one guy for 5d10+1, which Deflect can only half, not negate. The grenadier, assuming he is using Electronets, rolls a +17 to hit, and then can pin for +13 grapple against a probable grapple score of between +5 and +10. If you can catch two PCs next to each other, this will knock half the party out of the fight until the grenadier is neutralized. After that, the grunts aid the grenadier's defense instead of attack, since the grapple is established, while the gunner continues to lay down the pain.

[Bellberith]

Firstly, I recommend a character sheet audit, because those values seem excessive. A venerable Ithorian with maxed CHA and Skill Focus can only rock a +20 UTF at level 6, so that 21 you mention is a warning flag.

So, look at deflect and what it does, and more importantly, doesn't work against. Which is non-autofire area attacks, plus Energy (Sonic) weaponry. And it only works at half effectiveness against autofire. That gives you a lot of choices.

The standout is the Concussion Rifle, from Unknown Regions. I am convinced the writers included it solely as a giant double middle digit to Jedi, because it is devastatingly effective against Force users. It targets FORT, which tends to be a Jedi's lowest defense, it can't be deflected because it is a Sonic weapon, and it automatically knocks them flat on their keister, forcing them to spend actions standing up. That last point is the most insidious, because most Force-based builds are laughably impotent beyond 12 squares, so you can shoot them with a standard, back up with a move, and they have to blow a move to stand up and a move to close in, meaning you can kite them as long as you don't run out of room.

Second place goes to the Electronet (Scum & Villainy), because it is likewise unblockable and chews up actions. If paired with the Pin and Grapple Defense (Legacy) feats, it is even more reliable method of safely holding Jedi at arm's reach to be shot. You don't even need Heavy weapon proficiency to use it-it can be fired from the Micro Grenade Launcher from the same book, although now the damage is so terrible you had better be using Pin shenanigans to make it worthwhile.

The Bronze in the Jedi-killing Olympics is awarded to the snare rifle (S&V again) and pistol (Galaxy of Intrigue), which are also candidates for ranged Pinning shenanigans. Unfortunately, they can be Deflected, so you need another way to combat that.

The Carbonite Rifle (KoTOR) gets an Honorable Mention, as it literally freezes attackers in their tracks. Sadly, it is susceptible to Deflection.

Strong runners up go to the Blaster Cannon, Flechette Launcher (RECG), Rail Detonator Gun (TFU), and Double-Barreled Blaster Carbine for being deflect-proof and dealing solid damage.

Also-rans include sonic weapons, which are deflect-proof but pay for it with weaker damage outputs. The Flamethrower, Pulse Rifle, and Deck Sweeper are also undeflectable, but are Exotic and require getting closer to the glowrods o' doom than is healthy.


So now you got the guns, but how do you hit with them? Glad you asked.

For individual heroic characters, attack bonus optimization is gold, since it opposed attack rolls versus UtF. But there's a few options to tip the scales in your favor.

Overwhelming Assault (Clone Wars) takes two swift actions and inflicts a -5 on any attempt to negate the attack, including force powers.

Precision Fire slaps a -5 penalty on Deflection attempts if you Aim the attack.

And then there's Stymie, which is the bestest Jedi-killer talent in the history of ever. With a swift action, no roll, you can hobble a Jedi's offense and defense, and it has no pre-reqs! What's not to love?:smallbiggrin:

...Besides the fact that to use it, you have to be inside the 12-square threat radius I mentioned earlier.:smallfrown:


Non-heroic mooks will have to fall back on teamwork in order to come out on top die a little slower. Imagine, if you will, a Sith squad composed of the following:
6 Grunts (use Imperial Stormtrooper statistics)
1 Gunner (Heavy Stormtrooper stats. Optionally, replace the light repeater with a repeating carbine.)
1 Grenadier (As Heavy Stormtrooper, but with blaster rifle+grenade launcher instead of repeater. Replace WF (Rifle) and Burst Fire with Pin and Grapple Resistance.)
1 Sergeant (use Imperial Officer stats)

CL 5, serves a party of 4 6th-level heroes a major slice of humble pie.

Here's how it works-the Sergeant gets under cover and uses his Coordinate and Trust talents. Three of Grunts aid each of the heavy weapon troopers, automatically succeeding because of Coordinated Attack, giving a +9 bonus to the main shooters. The gunner braces and lays down autofire, either burst or regular, as the situation dictates, rolling a +16 to attack for either 3d10+1 across a 2x2 area or drilling one guy for 5d10+1, which Deflect can only half, not negate. The grenadier, assuming he is using Electronets, rolls a +17 to hit, and then can pin for +13 grapple against a probable grapple score of between +5 and +10. If you can catch two PCs next to each other, this will knock half the party out of the fight until the grenadier is neutralized. After that, the grunts aid the grenadier's defense instead of attack, since the grapple is established, while the gunner continues to lay down the pain.

Thank you very much for the in-depth post!

The UtF check from some is a 16 (normal) then +5 for fool's luck from scoundrel giving a 21. Because leveling in this campaign is dreadfully slow i added a long term force point regen rule. So generally they have a few to blow per combat. (5 trained + 5 skill focus + 3 cha + 3 lvl and sometimes + 5 fool's luck)

[RandomLunatic]

Thank you very much for the in-depth post!You're welcome.


The UtF check from some is a 16 (normal) then +5 for fool's luck from scoundrel giving a 21. Because leveling in this campaign is dreadfully slow i added a long term force point regen rule. So generally they have a few to blow per combat. (5 trained + 5 skill focus + 3 cha + 3 lvl and sometimes + 5 fool's luck)Ah-ha, there's your problem. Fool's Luck was errata'd into a Competence bonus so it no longer stacks with Skill Focus.

[Thrysierius]

You're welcome.

Ah-ha, there's your problem. Fool's Luck was errata'd into a Competence bonus so it no longer stacks with Skill Focus.

Not only that but you should not allow your Jedi players to take Skill Focus: UtF until level 7 or higher. It's too game breakingly powerful at earlier levels.

[obryn]

The entirety of UtF math is pretty borked, to be frank.

[PastorofMuppets]

this sort of thing is why my group and I decided to do d20 instead of saga for our star wars campaign. Use the Force is so easily overpowering it feels like you need to rules lawyer from 4 books to have a chance of being a challenge to players. On top of that on force user players tend to vastly outdo the regulars for that same reason.

[Philistine]

SWd20/RCR is hardly going to fix those issues.

Or any issues.

[obryn]

this sort of thing is why my group and I decided to do d20 instead of saga for our star wars campaign. Use the Force is so easily overpowering it feels like you need to rules lawyer from 4 books to have a chance of being a challenge to players. On top of that on force user players tend to vastly outdo the regulars for that same reason.
Uh yeah, RCR has a host of other problems, too. I think Edge of the Empire/Age of Rebellion will end up fixing more (though the Force is hardly covered, admittedly.)

For SWSE, I'd just make some kind of Force BAB and force (hah) it to follow regular attack progression math.

[Nerd-o-rama]

In addition to everything RandomLunatic said, you can always snipe them. Hit them hard in the Condition Track before they even have their saber drawn and knock their skill checks down a peg or five. And if they've minmaxed UtF, I think you're justified as GM in breaking out the CT-killer builds, especially at these lower levels where you can "only" get two or three places down the track in one attack. Of course, this relies on beating their Perception check, which can easily be made into a UtF check itself with one talent.

A feinting build can also be helpful, as you can't block or deflect when flat-footed. Again, thought, it requires beating Perception (and a lot of actions).

That said, the main problem with UtF is that skill checks are front-loaded, defenses are back-loaded, and attack rolls are pretty much linear. UtF-based things get less overpowering at higher levels (which is when Techniques and Secrets come in to make very specific things overpowered) but are absolute crack at lower levels.

But seriously, go with the errata on Fool's Luck. It helps a lot.

[Closet_Skeleton]

On top of that on force user players tend to vastly outdo the regulars for that same reason.

Then the non-force users aren't optimised. Even a badly built solder with a big gun can out damage most force users past the early levels where Move Object is over-powered.

The most powerful build is the condition track 1 hit kill anything build which is I think a scout build?


even with something like aiding the attack roll, they only get a +2 per person aiding...

There are a lot of ways to boost that +2. Mainly Rapport (a feat from the Force Unleashed book) and the noble's coordinate talent in the core book.

[Nerd-o-rama]

Then the non-force users aren't optimised. Even a badly built solder with a big gun can out damage most force users past the early levels where Move Object is over-powered.

The most powerful build is the condition track 1 hit kill anything build which is I think a scout build?

Scout 3+/Scoundrel 1+/Bounty Hunter/Elite Trooper/Gunslinger if you want to get down to Unconscious/Disabled/Dead in one shot. Scout's technically only necessary as a prereq for Bounty Hunter. Soldier levels would also be a really good idea to lower enemy DT and increase damage.

[Philistine]

Then the non-force users aren't optimised. Even a badly built solder with a big gun can out damage most force users past the early levels where Move Object is over-powered.
Pretty much this. Some things to keep in mind:
* Virtually all Force powers are single target (the most notable exception being Move Object, which can get two targets at a time).
* The great majority of damaging Force powers are capped to 4d6 or 6d6 damage at most, and there's no real way to boost them (the most notable exception being Move Object (Again! Ack!), which scales with the UtF roll).
* Force powers do not count as attacks for the purpose of adding 1/2 of heroic level to damage; so the aforementioned 4d6 or 6d6 is equivalent to a bog-standard 3d6 blaster pistol in the hands of a mid- or high-level character, respectively... Except that the pistol can potentially crit, multi-attack, or boost accuracy/damage via various Feats, Talents, and even Class abillities. (No exceptions to this one, not even for Move Object.) Plus...
* Defenses scale with level, plus various bonuses; skills scale with 1/2 of level, with fewer possible sources of bonuses (for most skills). While Skill-based attacks like Force powers start off strong (especially if for some reason you're using Skill Focus as written), above level 10 or so they become less and less effective, eventually falling behind weapons use. Especially for full-BAB types, or characters with other ways to boost their attacks such as making their enemies flat-footed.


The most powerful build is the condition track 1 hit kill anything build which is I think a scout build?
That's only really true for a very particular (and very narrow) definition of "powerful." They're a bit like Charge-optimized characters in 3E D&D in that respect - they do one thing well, but it's really not that hard to shut them down if you want to. And some people get freaked out about them far beyond their actual capabilities in the game, which is another similarity to Charge-optimized 3E D&D characters.

[Waar]

That's only really true for a very particular (and very narrow) definition of "powerful." They're a bit like Charge-optimized characters in 3E D&D in that respect - they do one thing well, but it's really not that hard to shut them down if you want to. And some people get freaked out about them far beyond their actual capabilities in the game, which is another similarity to Charge-optimized 3E D&D characters.

So your sugestion is that every enemy that isn't non-heroic is force sensitive with a specific talent (iirc from a special tradition)*? Having to compeltely rebalance all encounter to account for something does sound pretty powerfull. Otherwise you can't realy deal with more then one CT-killer/party without equal or more chesse.

*Other options may be available :smallwink:

[Philistine]

So your sugestion is that every enemy that isn't non-heroic is force sensitive with a specific talent (iirc from a special tradition)*? Having to compeltely rebalance all encounter to account for something does sound pretty powerfull. Otherwise you can't realy deal with more then one CT-killer/party without equal or more chesse.

*Other options may be available :smallwink:

Of course not. I'm saying that there are a number of common situations where a CT Killer's one trick either doesn't matter or can't be used. Like when facing large numbers of non-heroic or lower-level characters, for example - when anyone on the team can straight-up kill one enemy per turn, the CT Killer doesn't stand out. (Note that this is also a bad matchup for most Jedi. Heavy Weapons Guy, OTOH, gets to be the Big Damn Hero.) And what could be more cinematic and Star Wars-y than a small band of heroes bravely taking on a small army of foes? Another good and very Star Wars-y setup that's none too favorable for a CT Killer is the Race Against Time - if you only have X rounds to travel 5X squares distance (maybe to get to an escape pod before it leaves), the CT Killer won't have a bunch of chances to stop for a round and spend two Swifts and a Standard on an attack. Only after considering "environmental" counters do you get to enemies specifically built to counter the CT Killer's trick - maybe via abilities that let a character resist going down the CT, or maybe via abilities that let a character bounce back up once they've gone down, or maybe both of those.

Finally, sometimes it's okay to give the CT Killer a target to knock down the CT. You don't want to put your Big Bad in that situation, no - but mid-level henchmen? Sure! Just don't count on them carrying an entire encounter, because they're likely to be out of action after the Gunslinger's first turn. Then after the fight the party can carry the unconscious villain off for interrogation, which gives all kinds of opportunities for RP... and for feeding them either good or bad information IC, which they'll be more inclined to trust because they'll think they "forced" it out of you by capturing the villain. :smallbiggrin:

[Waar]

Of course not. I'm saying that there are a number of common situations where a CT Killer's one trick either doesn't matter or can't be used.

The "problem" is that CT-killing limts the number of encounters that are even remotely challenging by quite a bit. Now it's okay to counter some types of enemies/encounters, but I find that CT-killers do so a bit too broadly. (And sometimes it's nice to be able to use a statblock from one of the books every now and then :smalltongue:)

[LibraryOgre]

Isn't there a talent that lets a minion take a hit for you? Doesn't that one put serious limits on a CT killer?

[Philistine]

The "problem" is that CT-killing limts the number of encounters that are even remotely challenging by quite a bit. Now it's okay to counter some types of enemies/encounters, but I find that CT-killers do so a bit too broadly. (And sometimes it's nice to be able to use a statblock from one of the books every now and then :smalltongue:)
CT Killers negate encounters where the opposition is a single baddie with a ton of HP, sure. AFAIC that's to the benefit of the game, though, because those encounters tend to be extremely boring.

Against superior numbers (which really should be the default in a Star Wars game anyway) the CT Killer is useful but rarely overpowering; against weak opponents the CT Killer is no more useful than any other armed character; and in mobile fights (another cinematic staple) the CT Killer's opportunity to use that ability is limited.


Isn't there a talent that lets a minion take a hit for you? Doesn't that one put serious limits on a CT killer?
That sounds like the Crime Lord talent, Bodyguard I. Yes it would, for as long as the Crime Lord has minions present to take the hits. There are a number of build options that can limit the effectiveness of CT Killers, though better encounter design is generally the superior choice.