Warlock Pact - The Great Old One

[Erthanos]

Hi there! Me and my friends are about to start ''Hoard of the Dragon Queen''.
We have a friend (Frank) who always makes ''evil'' characters, so he is always a tiefling or a warlock or a vampire or a half-demon etc.
This time he choose an Elven Warlock focused on Cthulhu.

However another one of my friends (Tom) started bitching about it and started complaining about how that doesn't make ''any goddamn sense'' and it's stupid and Cthulhu has no place in D&D.
Now, the DM has already allowed it and in theory that should be the end of it.
But the DM asked me to get more information about what role The Great Old Ones play in D&D, in this case Forgotten Realms, so he can prove to Tom that with proper thinking and good planning anything can fit into D&D and if the writers added it, it's for a reason, it's not like they added a Deity that provides M16A3 Assault rifles to their Paladins that shoot holy bullets +50.

I haven't been able to find much info on the Old Ones regarding D&D in Forgotten Realms specifically but if anyone can provide any other thing (even if it isn't official) I will greatly appreciate it.

Thanks in advance :)

[hacksnake]

You could check out the "Lords of Madness" book from the 3.x timeframe.

It goes into some detail about the origins of various aberrations & specifically mentions Lovecraftian GOOs in the aboleth section as I recall.

[Zevox]

I haven't been able to find much info on the Old Ones regarding D&D in Forgotten Realms specifically but if anyone can provide any other thing (even if it isn't official) I will greatly appreciate it.
I don't believe you're going to find anything about that as far as the Forgotten Realms specifically goes. I'm pretty familiar with the Realms, as they were before 4e at least, and I don't recall the Far Realm ever being referenced in anything FR-related. The only place I recall seeing that in 3e at all was in an optional splatbook that wasn't related to any particular setting (don't remember which one at the moment). They seem to have decided to make the Far Realm a more standard thing for D&D since then, but I'd be surprised if the Realms have ever really used them. They've got enough going on with the many gods and high-level NPCs of the setting being as active as they are.

[Erthanos]

Perfect, I will check those out, thank you for the replies!

[GiantOctopodes]

Agreed, the description of the Far Realm on page 8 of the Lords of Madness book is magnificent for exactly such a thing. The Forgotten Realms wikia also has a passable description of that setting, from whence the Great Old Ones would come. Note that the earliest reference it has on there to the far realm is from AD&D with TSR in 1996. If having been part of D&D for nearly 20 years and 4 different editions is not enough for him and he feels it has no place and is being shoehorned in, well, that's his prerogative. The same sort of arguments are made because people don't like monks either, because they wants pseudo historical medieval reality in their world filled with creatures from all sorts of planes of existence. Whatever, more power to them, just stay well away from windows in the city then, so you don't get caught under a bedpan being emptied.

From my standpoint, *everything* belongs in D&D. I fail to see how alien invaders wielding lightsabers can really break immersion while you're flying around dealing battle with a creature that does not and has never existed through waggling your fingers and incanting some phrases. Yes, there needs to be internal consistency to tell a compelling story, but that's not the argument being made. The player is arguing that he can't imagine such a thing within HIS preferred flavor of fantasy (which is ironically the entire basis of the realm- the incomprehendable and unimaginable, so maybe he should just internalize that and use it for his character and move on with life). The DM has it as part of his setting, so I agree, that should be that.

For the 2 cp recap to tide you over until you get to your books:

The Far Realms are beyond the understood structure of the planes. It's theorized that you could travel to the end of time or the end of the infinite universe and reach the far planes that way, much like areas of deepest water, fire, shadow, etc have links to the corresponding planes. Who knows, though, for the far planes are incomprehensible and unknowable, and to look upon them is to look upon madness. It is from there that the most alien of the alien spawn. Gibbering Mouthers, the oddly tentacled chokers, illithids, beholders, all migrated from that realm to this one, and those are only some of the more tame and predictable things to come from those realms. The most extreme examples defy naming, description, or definitions of form.

Those who worship the Archfey risk the mercilessness and capriciousness of nature. There is no guarantee that its whims or demands will come anywhere close to the morals of the poor warlock who chooses that path. Those who worship the Fiend are only the most desperate or the most uncaring, for it is virtually guaranteed that a price of blood must be paid for that power. But those who worship the Great Old Ones truly have no idea what may come of that, and may well go mad trying to discern whether or not there even is a pattern and grander scheme to the whims and demands of their patron. Those who look out into that indescribable blackness beyond the normal limits of reality are likely to lose all sense of themselves. That being the case, how much worse is it for those poor souls who looked out into those formless depths, and had them look back in answer?

(in essence, in D&D where the cosmos are mapped, magic is well understood and readily reproduced, where dieties interact readily and directly with their followers and they have a clear and accurate understanding of their journey to the afterlife, the far realm is the great unknown, the 'here there be dragons' of the universe. It is a land few have witnessed, fewer still have survived witnessing, and no sentient being as we understand them to exist truly understands, and those who may have hints as to its nature certainly aren't sharing.)

Edit: In addition to the AD&D adventure, and the Lords of Madness, the Far Realm was also in the Manual of the Planes, was part of the base cosmology in 4e (and now 5e) and as such was in the Player's Handbook for both editions, and has been featured multiple times in Dragon Magazine.

[Mjolnirbear]

Or tell your player that a GOO Warlock is an official option in the PHB and there is no reason to deny it to a player that wants to play it. Faerun is part of and attached to many planes of existence, and who knows how the warlock got in contact with a GOO.

[Naanomi]

Places I know of that FR deals with the far realm:
-aboleth and their blood queen have been around forever and have ties to the place
-ancient elves opened a portal there and blew up their civilization
-later, deuregar took over the ruins and they (and their svirfneblin slaves) still have some familiarity with and mastery over the place
-various people use the Region of Dreams for magical or religious purposes, which risks connecting to the Old Ones
-the Netherese were into everything magical you shouldn't do, I'm sure some of them messed with the Far Realm
-FR has a rich spelljamming history, which can lead to some non-Far Realms related 'space Old Ones' in various sourcebooks

[Rallicus]

Is the problem that the patron is actually Cthulhu? Or does it have to do with Lovecraftian influences in general?

If the latter, that's ridiculous. The Far Realm plays an interesting, albeit mysterious part of most D&D settings -- FR included.

I can kind of understand the issue of it being actually Cthulhu though. I don't know if he exists in the D&D pantheon as canon, though I'm sure he does, but so does Thor and Zeus. Some players might take issue with a PC being a cleric of Zeus, for instance, if the campaign takes places in the Forgotten Realms... even though Zeus does exist on his mountain in the Outlands or whatever.

[Anderlith]

Tharizdun is a Gary Gygax approved stand in for anything Cthulhu.

[Sigreid]

Is the problem that the patron is actually Cthulhu? Or does it have to do with Lovecraftian influences in general?

If the latter, that's ridiculous. The Far Realm plays an interesting, albeit mysterious part of most D&D settings -- FR included.

I can kind of understand the issue of it being actually Cthulhu though. I don't know if he exists in the D&D pantheon as canon, though I'm sure he does, but so does Thor and Zeus. Some players might take issue with a PC being a cleric of Zeus, for instance, if the campaign takes places in the Forgotten Realms... even though Zeus does exist on his mountain in the Outlands or whatever.

The original printing of the Deities and Demigods book had Cuthulhu, if I remember correctly. Before they had to take it out because of copy right infringement.

[Jamesps]

Is the problem that the patron is actually Cthulhu? Or does it have to do with Lovecraftian influences in general?

If the latter, that's ridiculous. The Far Realm plays an interesting, albeit mysterious part of most D&D settings -- FR included.

I can kind of understand the issue of it being actually Cthulhu though. I don't know if he exists in the D&D pantheon as canon, though I'm sure he does, but so does Thor and Zeus. Some players might take issue with a PC being a cleric of Zeus, for instance, if the campaign takes places in the Forgotten Realms... even though Zeus does exist on his mountain in the Outlands or whatever.

Cthulu was in the old Deities and Demigods before they had to take him out. He has published stats! If you can find a first run copy of it.

[Wellofworlds]

Forgotten Realms has it own elder god. His name is Dendar the Night Serpent.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dendar

[Naanomi]

Forgotten Realms has it own elder god. His name is Dendar the Night Serpent.

http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Dendar
Dendar is not really an Elder God, he and his ilk (Kezef being the most famous) are more like powerful and locally active unique outsiders/aberrations; their specific status changing over the editions. They are call outs to Fenrir/Jormandor from Norse mythology.

As to if they can be warlock patrons... Possible I guess, as Old One or Fiend patrons

[Ashrym]

Dendar is not really an Elder God, he and his ilk (Kezef being the most famous) are more like powerful and locally active unique outsiders/aberrations; their specific status changing over the editions. They are call outs to Fenrir/Jormandor from Norse mythology.

As to if they can be warlock patrons... Possible I guess, as Old One or Fiend patrons

Dendar is one of the specific examples under GOO in the Phb.

You no longer need to guess. ;-)

[mephnick]

The Great Old Ones belong in all settings and all editions in every game ever made, because they're older and better than everything else!

[Ashrym]

I would point out the elder gods in subsequent literature were not necessarily evil. What's thematic is such alien nature as to break sanity.

Lovecraftian mythos is a definite part of fantasy literature and D&D unless the DM doesn't want it. Historically, it's present.

[TrollCapAmerica]

Cthulu was in the old Deities and Demigods before they had to take him out. He has published stats! If you can find a first run copy of it.

Yup

People have been killing Chutulu since 1980 in D&D they just dont wana admit it

Dont even get me started on the Immortals Handbook or how routinely in 3.5 that we could handle something like that

[squab]

The original printing of the Deities and Demigods book had Cuthulhu, if I remember correctly. Before they had to take it out because of copy right infringement.

Isn't Lovecraftian mythos basically like open source?

[ImSAMazing]

You could check out the "Lords of Madness" book from the 3.x timeframe.

It goes into some detail about the origins of various aberrations & specifically mentions Lovecraftian GOOs in the aboleth section as I recall.

He indeed should.

[JBento]

Isn't Lovecraftian mythos basically like open source?

That.. depends. See here: http://lovecraft.wikia.com/wiki/Copyright_status_of_works_by_H._P._Lovecraft for the unabashed mess that is the copyright status of the Cthulhu Mythos works.

[Shining Wrath]

The PHB actually mentions Cthulhu. The idea that there are entities that stand outside our reality, peering and sometimes reaching in, shows up other places than Lovecraft, but he's the granddaddy of the idea, so to speak.

Talk to the griping player. Ask him to imagine some sort of entity that is from a place so strange that it hurts your brain to even think about it. If he's ever read Zelanzy's Amber stuff, tell him to imagine going clear out past the Courts of Chaos.

[EvanescentHero]

The PHB actually mentions Cthulhu. The idea that there are entities that stand outside our reality, peering and sometimes reaching in, shows up other places than Lovecraft, but he's the granddaddy of the idea, so to speak.

Talk to the griping player. Ask him to imagine some sort of entity that is from a place so strange that it hurts your brain to even think about it. If he's ever read Zelanzy's Amber stuff, tell him to imagine going clear out past the Courts of Chaos.

I was just going to mention that. In the Great Old One section, it specifically calls out Great Cthulhu as an option for your pact entity. Cthulhu is directly allowed in the rules.

[Sigreid]

Isn't Lovecraftian mythos basically like open source?

I don't know about now, but it's one of a few sections that had to be pulled when people lawyer-ed up. The Elric section was another one.

[Wellofworlds]

Isn't Lovecraftian mythos basically like open source?



no it not open source. TSR was sued by Love Craft family for putting them in a book. Now the original book is a collector item. Cause they later cut the whole section out it .

http://forums.rpgmakerweb.com/index.php?/blog/27/entry-461-so-you-want-to-make-a-lovecraft-game-and-not-get-sued/

Also they can mention it, but they cannot develop any of the ideas that were written by love craft.

Yes I know that Dendar was based off a Norse myth, but was created specific for Forgotten Realms.

[foobar1969]

The original printing of the Deities and Demigods book had Cthulhu, if I remember correctly. Before they had to take it out because of copy right infringement.
Arcana from the cryptic depths of my storage room: Old School with the Old Ones.
http://i59.tinypic.com/rab1jb.jpg
However, to my most squamous horror, I now realize they confused Shub-Niggurath with Abhoth. It's madness!

[Blacky the Blackball]

Isn't Lovecraftian mythos basically like open source?

It's... complicated.

Basically, Lovecraft himself encouraged others to write stories using his creations - the 1920s equivalent of an author encouraging fan fiction - but technically he still had copyright over his works.

However, those copyrights weren't renewed properly, and Lovecraft's works are now generally considered (this is disputed by Arkham House) to be in the public domain.

Note that this only counts for Lovecraft's own inventions (e.g. Cthulhu, Deep Ones, Elder Things). The many inventions in the shared setting by other authors are still most definitely under copyright by those other authors or their estates.


no it not open source. TSR was sued by Love Craft family for putting them in a book. Now the original book is a collector item. Cause they later cut the whole section out it.

That's not entirely correct; and again it's complicated. Arkham House (who claimed to own the copyright - a claim that is now generally not taken seriously) had sold Chaosium the "exclusive rights" to Lovecraft in gaming for their Call of Cthulhu game. When TSR published the Deities and Demigods book and included the Cthulhu Mythos, Chaosium pointed out their exclusive rights. No-one actually got sued, but TSR and Chaosium did a deal. TSR could use the Cthulhu Mythos in their book providing they credited Chaosium; and in exchange Chaosium could produce D&D supplements.

Between doing the deal and the new printing of the book (with the Chaosium credit), TSR changed their minds and decided that they didn't want other companies to be licensing their stuff; so they cancelled the deal. They took the Cthulhu Mythos elements out of the new printing. Ironically, they forgot about the credit, so the new printing credited Chaosium for the Cthulhu Mythos (and Melnibonean mythos) despite not actually including either!