Optimizing a Grenadier?

[SkipSandwich]

Hi Playgrounders!

I was reading through the "Worst Weapon" thread when the subject of throwing alchemist fire via sling came up, and I wondered. Can you optimize a character to use thrown vials of Alchemist's Fire/Frost/Shock/Acid as their primary form of attack? Can you craft enchanted Acid flasks? If a special sling such as the Gnomish calculus is used to launch the vial, would enchanting the sling apply a bonus to the vial? What about creatures hit by the splash damage of such a hypothetical magic acid sling?

[Frosty]

This class can create potent alchemist flasks to throw around: Meet the Alchemist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/alchemist)

[SkipSandwich]

I'm aware of the pathfinder alchemist class, but I was really looking for ways to optimize mundane grenadelike weapons. The alchemist's bombs are basicly a re-flavored eldritch blast.

[Brova]

On today's episode of "Exactly what you were looking for", the Halfling Hurler (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Halfling_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)).

[Xervous]

On today's episode of "Exactly what you were looking for", the Halfling Hurler (http://www.dandwiki.com/wiki/Halfling_Hurler_(3.5e_Optimized_Character_Build)).

Sneak attack + grenadelike weapons. The only thing I should point out is that dandwiki is quite often NOT a reputable source, though this document appears to be an exception to that norm.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The only way for it to work is with the Shaped Splash feat from Eberron (Halfling only), so you can basically sneak attack two adjacent foes each attack with one. Since you need sneak attack and you need a caster level to make your own flasks (keeping costs down is huge), the build pretty much restricts you to an Arcane Trickster / Unseen Seer type rogue/mage build. But then you have spellcasting and the whole throwing flasks thing starts to look kind of silly when you can just bend reality to your whim.

[SkipSandwich]

Sneak attack + grenadelike weapons. The only thing I should point out is that dandwiki is quite often NOT a reputable source, though this document appears to be an exception to that norm.

Very interesting! I'll give it a more through read-through when I get off work (on break now)
What about my other hypotheticals through? Is it possible to apply weapon enchantments to splash weapons, either through directly crafting magic vials or through an enchantable weapon that can fire them like a sling, like how a bow can apply enchantments to any arrows it fires? How would such effects work with the splash damage? Would it be worth the effort in the end for anything other then flavor reasons?

[Odin's Eyepatch]

Very interesting! I'll give it a more through read-through when I get off work (on break now)
What about my other hypotheticals through? Is it possible to apply weapon enchantments to splash weapons, either through directly crafting magic vials or through an enchantable weapon that can fire them like a sling, like how a bow can apply enchantments to any arrows it fires? How would such effects work with the splash damage? Would it be worth the effort in the end for anything other then flavor reasons?

I would say that it works, so a +1 gnome calculus will give 1d6+1 damage on a direct hit (assuming that you are using a vial that does 1d6 damage). The area splash damage, however, I would not include in the enhancement bonus. Any other enhancements should be determined case by case, though I could see a +1 shocking calculus inflict 1d6 (fire) +1+1d6 (electricity), supposing if you were using alchemist's fire.


On a separate note, there is the Alchemist Savant class, which allows you to prepare potions as splash weapons, so a vial of Slow would be awesome to chuck at somebody, especially if you could get in some extra damage on the side! There is even a class feature that allows you to combine a potion with a splash weapon directly! (even poisons!)

[SkipSandwich]

I would say that it works, so a +1 gnome calculus will give 1d6+1 damage on a direct hit (assuming that you are using a vial that does 1d6 damage). The area splash damage, however, I would not include in the enhancement bonus. Any other enhancements should be determined case by case, though I could see a +1 shocking calculus inflict 1d6 (fire) +1+1d6 (electricity), supposing if you were using alchemist's fire.


On a separate note, there is the Alchemist Savant class, which allows you to prepare potions as splash weapons, so a vial of Slow would be awesome to chuck at somebody, especially if you could get in some extra damage on the side! There is even a class feature that allows you to combine a potion with a splash weapon directly! (even poisons!)

The idea of offensive potions intrigues me and something I've been meaning to homebrew a system for for a while now. Can you point me to which book/system that one's in?

[torrasque666]

The idea of offensive potions intrigues me and something I've been meaning to homebrew a system for for a while now. Can you point me to which book/system that one's in?
Magic of Eberron p. 53

[ShurikVch]

There are Grenadier and Mad Alchemist feats in the PH2, and Pyro in the Song and Silence


Since you need sneak attack and you need a caster level to make your own flasks (keeping costs down is huge), the build pretty much restricts you to an Arcane Trickster / Unseen Seer type rogue/mage build. But then you have spellcasting and the whole throwing flasks thing starts to look kind of silly when you can just bend reality to your whim.There are classes which have both SA and spells, but not great at spellcasting enough to overshadow SA: Savant, Spellthief, Assassin...
(If spellcasting is just only for Craft (Alchemy), then Unseen Crafter is the only spell you will ever need)

[Brova]

As far as costs go, it is not all that expensive to simply buy flasks. It'll run you some money, but two flasks per level per encounter is cheap enough to keep you in the black on average treasure. I would also assume you are part of a party, so having the caster craft your flasks seems like a solid enough plan to me. Finally, it's not entirely clear what acid is made of, but you may also be able to swing using minor creation to manufacture acid.

[Darkweave31]

While the idea of keeping grenade-like weapons practical is cool, remember that one-trick ponies are not optimized. Make sure to have other options when grenades aren't practical.

Also for some high/theoretical optimization, set up a self-resetting wish trap to create alchemist's fire/acid/etc boosted by the augmented alchemy epic feat. You can get an alchemist's fire up to around 125d6 damage before you hit the gp limit for nonmagical items if I mathed right. 250d6 for acid.

For more mid optimization, if you're using sneak attack, stick a wand chamber in your gnomish calculus for wands of golemstrike/gravestrike.

[Curmudgeon]

For more mid optimization, if you're using sneak attack, stick a wand chamber in your gnomish calculus for wands of golemstrike/gravestrike.
A Gnome calculus is just an oversized sling: a length of leather cord with a pouch in the middle. Where are you going to install a chamber in that?

[Brova]

While the idea of keeping grenade-like weapons practical is cool, remember that one-trick ponies are not optimized. Make sure to have other options when grenades aren't practical.

Honestly, all the optimization you need is to take "always take 10" as one of your Rogue bonus abilities. Pick abuse magic device. Note that the example given for "Emulate Class Feature" describes not only emulating having a class feature, but using that class feature. This is fairly obviously abusable. For example, the use of a knowstone is not just to know a spell, but to cast that spell. So if you can pull off an appropriate check (fairly easy with a +10 item), you can buy at-will versions of any spell for the price of spell level * spell level * 1,000.

[Darkweave31]

A Gnome calculus is just an oversized sling: a length of leather cord with a pouch in the middle. Where are you going to install a chamber in that?

Is it? I never actually saw the description, just that it launches alchemical items. I imagined some sort of crossbow. In that case install one in each of two gauntlets.