Dervish vs Blade Bravo vs Swiftblade

[Jiruharudo]

Gents and ladies of this fine forum.

Im working on a Whisper Gnome who uses the feat Titan Fighting to get his +4 bonus against giants against people who he uses his Dodge feat for.
Combined with confound the Big Folk en underfoot combat this is +12 AC without any other bonuses. (being +2 Tiny, any Dex, etc.

The plan is to hide in the shadow of my bigger friends, only to run up peoples ankles and make em drop while they are unable to swing at me.

However, Im having trouble choosing a prestige class..

Atm Im thinking about;

Swiftblade; Because spell casting is ALWAYS useful (making little holes in stone to infiltrate for example), also a hastened untouchable tiny gnome seems like a lot of fun. Also Sneak attacks may not work against everything.

Blade bravo; Fits the Gnome theme, would work well with a Daring outlaw build for sneak attacking etc. Also using his skills to trip an opponent to use a high crit weapon to hurt em good.

Dervish; 2 handed with performing skills, dancing from foe to foe seems also highly enjoyable to me..

My personal fav

Swiftblade seems most optimized, but the Pre-classes seem to be more tricky

Blade Bravo seems to be most strait forward, but Im afraid of oozes, undead and golems and the like..

Dervish seems to have these issues swell but at least gets a slashing weapon and some movement skills

Any Advice to make a tiny fighter with utility?

[Pluto!]

Swiftblade is the most powerful by miles, to the point where it's actually playing a different game.

Since you're looking at a late-blooming build anyway for Confound the Bigfolk, Full BA 6/Suel Arcanamach 4/Swiftblade 10 would be pretty sick. The Full BA levels would probably need to be spent dipping around for bonus feats.

[Aleolus]

Whisper Gnomes are Small, not Tiny. That being said, I am a fan of the Invisible Blade, myself. Get some insane bonuses when fighting with daggers, plus better ability to feint

[nedz]

Whisper Gnomes are Small, not Tiny. That being said, I am a fan of the Invisible Blade, myself. Get some insane bonuses when fighting with daggers, plus better ability to feint

That's why you need the Reduce Person spell: Small -> Tiny.

[Jiruharudo]

Pluto!, I fully agree. Swiftblade has the most potential and we're at lvl 13 atm.
Still even after checking out the Swiftblade handbook Im having issues to decide what should be the Build-up myself..
I feel kinda silly for asking but what class is "BA"? Barbarian? Suel Arcanamach does seem rather interesting though and fits the theme I had in mind so thanks for that!
However, I wouldnt have 3rd lvl spells to put haste in, would i?

Aleolus, indeed Invisible Blade is pretty neat, but didnt it get Nerfed in the errata?

And nedz hits the hammer on zeh head, that IS what I was going for. Suel Arcanamach might actually help with that with Extended Spellstrength..

Anything else people would like to add?

[ExLibrisMortis]

'Full BA' = any class with full base attack bonus, to get those daggers on-target. Fighter 2, pouncebarian 1, that kind of thing. A level in warblade and/or crusader is always nice - pick up a good stance and a few diamond mind counters.

[Jiruharudo]

Ah, thanks for elaborating ExLibrisMortis.

Warblade and/or crusader is always nice, true. Sadly my own DM shan't allow it. :)

[nedz]

Then you should be aware of Reduce Person, Greater (Spell Compendium p171) Sorcerer 5 or Wizard 5 though. It should last a couple of hours.

Shame it's not on the Duskblade list. You could ask your DM how Extra Spell works. It is in the Humility Domain so you could grab it with Arcane Disciple, though at 1/day you would have to wand it.

Alternatively Dip Sorcerer and maybe pick up Expeditious Retreat, or something else, also. Maybe add some levels of Abjurant Champion later as well ?

[Jiruharudo]

Indeed Nedz, same goes for haste, which also isn't on the Duskblade list (I am aware that Wyrm wizard solves it, but it feels kinda cheesy)

ATM I am thinking about: Duskblade 5/ Ab Champ 1/ Arcanamach 4 / Swiftblade x

Sadly Duskblade is int spell casting, but 12 int should be enough I think, and gets the right feat for ab champ which boots my Abjure spells which is nice.
Next to this I can use versatile spell caster to Sac Duskblade spells for Arcanamach spells, right?

Im probably going to run low on feats with this build though..

[Lathund]

Suel Archanamach works off Cha, while Invisible Blade profits from high Int. Also, Confound the Big Folk would profit from Combat Expertise, which requires 13 Int. I guess an Int-based caster might be a better basis for the Swiftblade.

How do you plan to deal damage? Because if the answer is 'sneak attack', please remember that we're in an undead-heavy campaign. Although there are ways around that.

The build appears to require a good number of feats btw:
Base of the idea:
(Expeditious) Dodge
Titan Fighting
Underfoot Combat
Confound the Big Folk

For synergy with the above:
Combat Expertise
Improved Trip

For Swiftblade:
Mobility

For Invisible Blade:
Far Shot
PBS
Weapon Focus
With respect to Invisible Blade, I think only the first level of it is really interesting: 1d6 sneak and extra AC. Maybe the 2nd level is also useful. But is that worth three feats, two of which are useless to you and the third sub-par?

With no Invisible Blade, all the core feats should be possible by level 12 by adding two levels of Fighter. In fact, skip Improved Trip and you can go for Fighter 1/Wizard 5/Swiftblade 7+. More interestingly, maybe talk to our DM about the Combat Wizard ACF.

[nedz]

Indeed Nedz, same goes for haste, which also isn't on the Duskblade list (I am aware that Wyrm wizard solves it, but it feels kinda cheesy)

ATM I am thinking about: Duskblade 5/ Ab Champ 1/ Arcanamach 4 / Swiftblade x

Sadly Duskblade is int spell casting, but 12 int should be enough I think, and gets the right feat for ab champ which boots my Abjure spells which is nice.
Next to this I can use versatile spell caster to Sac Duskblade spells for Arcanamach spells, right?

Im probably going to run low on feats with this build though..

Hmm, nice idea. Swiftblade to advance Duskblade or Arcanamach ?
You would also want to slot in Practiced Spellcaster as well :smallsigh:

I'd be tempted to dip Wizard for access to your low level spells earlier, also Scribe Scroll can be swapped for a Fighter feat — which may help you. I looked at an Ultimate Magus dip also, but that requires Wiz 3, Sorc 1 as well as a metamagic feat.
Wiz 3 / Duskblade 4 / Ultimate Magus 2 / Swiftblade — not in quite that order — maybe ?
Or use some early entry trick for
Wiz 1 / Duskblade 4 / Ultimate Magus 4 / Swiftblade

Shame about your BAB though

[Fouredged Sword]

Another interesting option is to go with Cobra Style Monk (focused attack). This is an interesting idea because with a feat you get int to AC and can make a full round attack that causes ALL attacks for the remainder of the round to deal double damage. This opens up some interesting abilities with perpetual options. You can enter as Monk 2 / wizard 5 / swiftblade 10 / abjurant champion 3. You get a character who is very int sad. The lack of need for dex opens up an easier time preventing your strength from totally tanking.

[Lathund]

Indeed Nedz, same goes for haste, which also isn't on the Duskblade list (I am aware that Wyrm wizard solves it, but it feels kinda cheesy)

ATM I am thinking about: Duskblade 5/ Ab Champ 1/ Arcanamach 4 / Swiftblade x

Sadly Duskblade is int spell casting, but 12 int should be enough I think, and gets the right feat for ab champ which boots my Abjure spells which is nice.
Next to this I can use versatile spell caster to Sac Duskblade spells for Arcanamach spells, right?

Im probably going to run low on feats with this build though..

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't explicitly say that you can't, but this seems like something our DM might have an opinion about.

Why Duskblade 5 btw? I wouldn't add more than 2 levels in that class (for Combat Casting) unless you plan to advance its spellcasting with Swiftblade. And yes, you'll run low on feats fast.

[Jiruharudo]

Nedz, Yeah wizard with fighter bonus feats IS rather tempting -and fitting. And wizard spells. Who doesn't want wizard spellcasting?
Im aware that losing Bab is NEVER a good plan, but losing 3 isn't THAT bad ..is it?

Fouredged Sword, Cobra style Monk WOULD be an easy way to get the feats and some nice other features indeed I mean ascetic mage would drop me AC to CHA or indeed INT. Hooray for SAD!

Lathund, Obviously I let my DM approve anything. But the more options the merrier. And Duskblade 5 because I already crammed 4 classes in this build. :P

[DarkSonic1337]

Losing spellcasting is taboo, but bab is not a big deal.

Duskblade 2 for combat casting, or Duskblade 3 for Arcane Channeling should really be your cutoff points.

[Jiruharudo]

DarkSonic, so after 2 or 3 levels, what would you suggest?

The swiftblade will make me lose levels no matter what we do, but personally, I feel it MAY be worth it.

-Because hey; Tiny Gnome speeding like Speedy Gonzales. Or like Nac Mac Feegle from Discworld, I supose. :P

[Troacctid]

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't explicitly say that you can't, but this seems like something our DM might have an opinion about.

Versatile Spellcaster doesn't say you can't because it doesn't need to; there's a general rule that prevents you from casting spells from one class using spell slots from a different class.

It's still a nice feat if you have room for it, but it's not THAT good.

[nedz]

Duskblade 2 for combat casting, or Duskblade 3 for Arcane Channeling should really be your cutoff points.

That's a good point:
Wiz 3 / Duskblade 2-3 / Ultimate Magus 2 / Swiftblade — not in that order
is probably more like it.

[Jiruharudo]

Wiz 3 / Duskblade 2-3 / Ultimate Magus 2 / Swiftblade

So what we'd get is a guy with 17 bab, 1st lvl spells (5) for Duskblade, light armor casting and from wizard spells 3rd level spells (1) BEFORE going into swiftblade?

While Duskblade 5/ Ab Champ 1/ Arcanamach 4 / Swiftblade gives me;

A guy with 20 bab, 2nd lvl spells (3) for Duskblade, medium armor casting and from (limited to wizard spells abjuration, divination, illusion, and transmutation schools 3rd level spells (1) BEFORE going into swiftblade..

Im sure im missing some bits ..but beside the sweet bonus feat from the wiz and the fact that Wiz has MORE spells till 9th, Im not seeing it just quite? Besides the obvious 9th lvl spells ..what am I missing?

[nedz]

You get more spells and a bonus feat for the price of 3 BAB, a lot more spells and better ones too; but you do have to purchase a Metamagic feat.

You'll want Arcane Strike of course — which should more than make up for the BAB — though you might have taken that anyway ?

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Assuming you don't want to go Swiftblade, there's the Other Killer Gnome build: http://community.wizards.com/forum/previous-editions-character-optimization/threads/1059231

Monk and Swashbuckler into Blade Bravo into whatever you want.

[Jiruharudo]

Nedz, True .I get better wiz spells, and the bonus feat is always welcome. But won't the Swiftblade ruin this advantage later on anyway? While The Arcanamach at least gets all the spells in there, and will improve the Abj. spells a bit?

On a side note, while i know the Wu Jen spell casting is subpar to the Wiz, I feel it may contribute more since the 2 levels after level 1 doesn't offer much, while the Wujen gives me a Watchful spirit/bonus feat/Spell secret

I like the watchful spirit for an even better initiative, which in late levels is rather useful, no? (also, Body outside Body is a hilarious spell..)

QuickLyRaiNbow, Haha, dang I should've known someone caught on the to giant AC stacking theme. Still yeah this IS kinda what I had in mind for it. ^^

EDIT: That forum told me about the spell Fell the Greatest Foe. If I can make it on a bracer or wand... That would solve my wussy strength! Thats amazing! Thanks! :D

EDITEDIT: Getting the spell Mighty Wallop, Greater may also work, maybe use lightning mace feat if I have a plenty feats (I don't)

[Rebel7284]

There is also the option to go Trapsmith - Dungeonscape p. 53

They cast haste from first level slots.

I heard that the creator of swiftblade later on commented on a forum post that, in retrospect, they would have liked to have re-worded the requirement to cast haste from third level slots to allow Trapsmiths to enter, but that's pretty unofficial. =)

[Jiruharudo]

Heya Rebel7284,

Truth! I found that one as well. But like you said, its kinda vague, and my DM doesn't approve from that book anyway, and you only get a small selection of spells. so i think swift blade would be rather limited.

But yeah, its int based and does have a few neat spells. :D

[Lathund]

Fell the Greatest Foe is perfect for this! Nice! Greater Mighty Wallop might also be useful. Also greatly liking the build QuickLyRaiNbow linked. A Swiftblade build is probably a lot stronger, but this fits the theme much better.

[Jiruharudo]

Lathund, indeed its a sweet flavorfull build. But like you said ..undead. SA with 3d6 and the secondary damage dealer being critical hits, I'll be hurtin'..

Still thinking Wiz 3 (or Wu jen?) / Duskblade 3 / Ultimate Magus 2 / Swiftblade X


STR: 8 DEX: 18 CON: 16 INT: 16 WIS: 8 CHA: 6 (with racial, no items)

Weapon: Feycraft light mace or Light Hammer (1 dmg in tiny form.., but I wont have to spend a feat on weapon finese and Fell the Greatest Foe + Mighty wallop greater may solve it)
Also Swift Surge allow me to do 1d6 extra damage if I move 10 ft, and since i walk 40 feet with haste bonusses, this should not be a problem, right?
Secondary: Light Shield, spiked (spiked makes you one size taller in damage)

1) Duskblade 1, Arcane attunement, armored mage (light) Feat:Extend Spel
2) Duskblade 2, Combat Casting
3) Duskblade 3, Arcane channeling Feat: Titan Fighting
4) Wizard 1, Summon familiar, Bonus fighter feat: Dodge
5) Wizard 2,
6) Wizard 3, Feat: Mobility
7) Ultimate Magus, Arcane spell power +1
8) Ultimate Magus, Expanded spell knowledge (1st level or lower) Reduce Person?
9) Swiftblade 1, Feat: Underfoot Combat Spring Attack, swift surge +1/+0 ft.[/i
10) Swiftblade 2, [I]Blurred alacrity
11) Swiftblade 3, Sudden casting
12) Swiftblade 4, Feat: Confound the Big Folk Arcane reflexes, swift surge +1/+10 ft.
13) Swiftblade 5, Evasive celerity

Bab +8 / Fort +8 Ref + 10 Will+ 12

Fun things: Blurred Alacrity + Underfoot Defense + the high AC means: Do you hit the guy? yes/no CAN you hit me? yes/no How about my AC (+12 AC without ANY bonuses like dex n armor)


If taking wizard, having a small flying familair would be fun getting around I supose, ideas?