Help With Building/Roleplaying Unarmed Character

[Enyo]

What would be an in-character reason for someone, namely a human, to not use any weapons or magic to fight at all? I'd rather not go with the mystical monk/martial arts academy student route because it's been done to death, but whenever I try to think of something else, I end up scrapping it because it just feels like they're putting themselves at a disadvantage by not picking up either of the above.

[JyP]

he took up a weapon which sounded great, but it is cursed : he cannot use any other weapon or magic anymore. And the weapon always says the wielder must prove he is a great warrior before being able to draw the weapon and handle its power. Hence only unarmed combat remaining :smallbiggrin:

(this is basically what happens in a french comic, aptely named Donjon)

[noob]

Maybe try crusader or one other martial class since there is a lot of abilities who deals bonus damage independently of your weapon.
(Crusader if my favorite for all those abilities like smite everything and super cool saves abilities)
Then use that special belt of free monk abilities and something improving natural weapons.
Martial classes are about knowing good attacks not about self perfection and they are also trained a lot more for team work.

[JyP]

There's also the social way : the PC is a kind of outcast, like a leper / untouchable / cagot / dalit / gipsy, which are forbidden to bear any arms, have anything other than black clothes, and so on.

[Enyo]

There's also the social way : the PC is a kind of outcast, like a leper / untouchable / cagot / dalit / gipsy, which are forbidden to bear any arms, have anything other than black clothes, and so on.

I was thinking of going that route, except my character's a fugitive prisoner of war.

[JyP]

I was thinking of going that route, except my character's a fugitive prisoner of war.
if he was a prisoner, maybe his gaoler used cursed shackles which prevent him to bear weapons ?

another variant I used not too long ago would be a poor little goblin without any weapons enslaved by adventurers, which ran for its life at every combat in a panic... until he was behind the big monster and backstabbed it with hidden daggers :smallbiggrin:

[Enyo]

What if the she had spiked gauntlets as a loophole?

[Karl Aegis]

Your job requires you to sometimes leave your weapons behind so you can perform some kind of service.

[Urpriest]

You happen to have been trained primarily in unarmed combat, and not in armed combat to the same extent.

[Vhaidara]

I've done it as a brawler. The kind of guy who specializes in fist fights because that's just the kind of fight he's usually in. He doesn't normally aim to kill, but to knock out (unarmed can do nl at no penalty).

Specifically, that character used unarmed and dirty trick maneuvers. So punches to the groin, sand in their eyes, kick the funny bone, that kind of thing.

[Uncle Pine]

Hmm... Why wouldn't someone who isn't a mystical monk/etc. not rely on weapons and magic?

1. Bob is strong!
2. Bob is STRONG and much cooler than bald guys with robes doing fancy dances at the temple.
3. Bob is so strong he can destroy the Evil Emperor even barehanded. Or so Bob thinks.
4. Bob understood that by not being a Monk and not joining the bald guys at the temple Bob will become an even better monk puncher.
5. Bob once tried to use magic, but it didn't work. Bob's uncle said that's because his mental something are negative.


On the other hand, if Bob is an outcast instead of a Kenshiro expy and is prevented to bear weapons because reasons, why would he actually follow unsensical oppressive rules, unless he's also Lawful and/or acknowledges that he deserves such a treatment? If I were to play such a character, I'd just stock up in hidden weapons and murder any potential witness or diplomance my way out of situations in which weapons are required.

[Flickerdart]

Weapons are conspicuous - a spy, infiltrator, or other tricky character would want people to think he was helpless right before clocking them upside the head. Unlike the ringing of steel, punching people is also relatively quiet.

Weapons are expensive and sometimes illegal - a peasant owning a longsword is very suspicious, and in many historical periods those not of the warrior caste were not permitted to bear arms. If you want to stand up to your feudal oppressors, training in a deadly martial art is a good option.

Weapons are cumbersome - they are often heavy, you have to spend time drawing them, and when you are holding them you can't use that hand for anything else. A survivalist type character, a quick-footed scout, or an expert who uses handheld tools like lockpicks might not want to bother.

Weapons are primarily designed for humanoids - a character with an unusual body (such as a warforged or dragon) might believe that he is much better off playing to his strengths rather than adopting the weapons of another race. Even humanoids might prefer to show off their great strength by using nothing except their muscles to defeat enemies.

[MyrPsychologist]

Maybe it's a matter of dignity? Soldiers carry swords. Commoners use tools to fight. But to be trained to actually use your body WELL instead of just flailing is not the most common thing in the world.

Maybe it's a matter of oath? A faith or sworn duty could easily keep someone from using a weapon. Invent the deity or circumstance for yourself.

Maybe it's confidence? Understanding how to use pressure points or properly fight could make an individual think they don't NEED other tools. I know many martial artists that would balk at the mere suggestion that they NEED a weapon in a fight.

Maybe it's necessity? Weapons are heavy, messy, and loud. Being able to quickly strike and move on could be a part of the character's goals.

Ultimately, more information would be needed on the specific character to infer any sort of logical reason.

[Maglubiyet]

What would be an in-character reason for someone, namely a human, to not use any weapons or magic to fight at all? I'd rather not go with the mystical monk/martial arts academy student route because it's been done to death, but whenever I try to think of something else, I end up scrapping it because it just feels like they're putting themselves at a disadvantage by not picking up either of the above.

How about vows from the BoED?

- Vow of Nonviolence
- Vow of Peace
- Vow of Poverty - taken to an extreme level

[Mystral]

What would be an in-character reason for someone, namely a human, to not use any weapons or magic to fight at all? I'd rather not go with the mystical monk/martial arts academy student route because it's been done to death, but whenever I try to think of something else, I end up scrapping it because it just feels like they're putting themselves at a disadvantage by not picking up either of the above.

Why would it be a disadvantage? Beating people up with your fist is just as viable a combat strategy as using a weapon, at least in d&d. Also, you can never be disarmed (unless in the literal sense, haha) and you are never without your weapons. Also, people won't know that you are able to pummel them to death until it's to late.

For class, play a pathfinder brawler or unarmed swordsage.

[Rhyltran]

What would be an in-character reason for someone, namely a human, to not use any weapons or magic to fight at all? I'd rather not go with the mystical monk/martial arts academy student route because it's been done to death, but whenever I try to think of something else, I end up scrapping it because it just feels like they're putting themselves at a disadvantage by not picking up either of the above.

Swords take training to use properly. Especially when facing against armored opponents. You need to be well versed on how to get in, hit the softer areas, and not be skewered by your opponent as well. Perhaps the character in question has been trained to a high degree in hand to hand techniques or has been in so many fights (with knives/daggers pulled on him) that not only is he a good hand to hand fighter but he's become rather adept at disarming his opponents as well.

You can even give said character (especially since you said he wasn't trained at a monk table) many scars on his chest/back to make the story believable. This way he's had his share of injuries, mistakes, and living like this wasn't easy. He's become so good he doesn't want to waste his time learning a sword. He/she feels they're better off getting better at what they're already proficient in.

[Ettina]

Maybe he's afraid of being disarmed in combat (or even having his weapons used on him), so he uses weapons that can never be taken away?

That's precisely the reason I recommend people in real life take martial arts instead of carrying a weapon if they want to be able to defend themselves.

[Enyo]

Thanks for the ideas, guys. Finally decided to have her be an escaped prisoner of war who was given magical tattoo seals that serve as a tracking device and prevents her from using weapons. But another dilemma arises on whether or not I should go Warlord or Stalker, the former for the Steelfist Commando archetype's unarmed damage and the latter being able to get access to Primal Fury via Dragon Fury if the DM doesn't let me regain the discipline as a Steelfist Commando.

[Vhaidara]

Personally, I favor warlord, but that's personal bias (I don't like how stalker feels).

Also, fury is a little wasted on unarmed. Broken blade has higher damage potential, and fury really wants two handed weapons.

[Psyren]

Weapons have several disadvantages, many of which have been touched on above:

- They are obvious threats, which makes them detrimental to someone who is trying to appear innocuous to authorities or infiltrate a restricted area.
- They can be damaged, destroyed, confiscated, lost or otherwise rendered not useful to you.
- They take up your hands, which precludes various strategies that rely on your hands being free, e.g. deflecting arrows, casting spells, carrying things, climbing, grappling etc.

And there's just plain the cool factor of using your bare hands to school somebody who's coming at you with a blade. It's a powerful fantasy for many, especially if you can snatch their weapon away from them.

[Vhaidara]

And there's just plain the cool factor of using your bare hands to school somebody who's coming at you with a blade. It's a powerful fantasy for many, especially if you can snatch their weapon away from them.

I've always kind of wanted to do that, but it runs into the problem of unarmed combat being such a high investment combat style that, if you're using it, stealing an opponent's weapon makes you generally WORSE at fighting.

[Psyren]

I've always kind of wanted to do that, but it runs into the problem of unarmed combat being such a high investment combat style that, if you're using it, stealing an opponent's weapon makes you generally WORSE at fighting.

Well the idea is that you'd toss the weapon away or break it once you grab it. Even dropping it in your square or behind you would prevent them from picking it up.

[Enyo]

Personally, I favor warlord, but that's personal bias (I don't like how stalker feels).

Also, fury is a little wasted on unarmed. Broken blade has higher damage potential, and fury really wants two handed weapons.

But most of the gambits involve being armed, ranged or be able to make charges, the third being what Steelfist Commando lacks since it trades off Primal Fury and Scarlet Throne for Broken Blade and Steel Serpent.

[Vhaidara]

Why do you need to be armed? Grab the trip gambit and go for Leg Sweeping Hilt, or disarm gambit and Knuckle to the Blade. And you can still charge while unarmed.

Literally every gambit a Fury focus can do, a Blade focus can use at least as well. Actually, you'll get more mileage from Acrobatic Gambit since you have incentive to pump Acrobatics, and can run a Dex focus with Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility.

[Enyo]

I see.

Also at a loss on what to do when recovering maneuvers aside from moving away and not attacking at all once I've run out of gambits.

[Vhaidara]

I see.

Also at a loss on what to do when recovering maneuvers aside from moving away and not attacking at all once I've run out of gambits.

Gambits don't run out. You can keep using them.

Also, it will be a rare encounter that outlasts Readied + 2-3x Cha mod maneuvers

[Enyo]

Gambits don't run out. You can keep using them.

Also, it will be a rare encounter that outlasts Readied + 2-3x Cha mod maneuvers

Oh. I thought you could only use each gambit only once per encounter.

Why do you not like stalker, though?

[Vhaidara]

Generally not a fan of Wisdom characters, 3/4 BAB character with nothing to make up for it (maneuvers don't count, since it's competing with warder and warlord), not a fan of how Deadly Strikes pushes you to Crit Fish, Recovery method is the worst one released so far, and Warlord just does better for every build I've considered using a Stalker on (Steelfist Commando is just wonderful)

Now, I do like the two archetypes for Stalker coming in Path of War: Expanded. They actually make something fun happen.

[Extra Anchovies]

3/4 BAB character with nothing to make up for it (maneuvers don't count, since it's competing with warder and warlord)

Also maneuvers give plenty of bonus damage but aren't exactly big in the to-hit bonus department.

[Enyo]

Generally not a fan of Wisdom characters, 3/4 BAB character with nothing to make up for it (maneuvers don't count, since it's competing with warder and warlord), not a fan of how Deadly Strikes pushes you to Crit Fish, Recovery method is the worst one released so far, and Warlord just does better for every build I've considered using a Stalker on (Steelfist Commando is just wonderful)

Now, I do like the two archetypes for Stalker coming in Path of War: Expanded. They actually make something fun happen.

Not even the mobility offered by Veiled Moon and the enemy miss chance from the Concealed Recovery stalker art?

What's your recommended list of feats to take as a Steelfist Commando aside from Martial Training?

[atemu1234]

You swore an oath?

[Vhaidara]

Again, Concealed Recovery requires you to use Stalker Recovery. Which is terrible. And you can trait/tradition into Veiled Moon if you want it that badly.

I recommend Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility. You'll be in light armor, so Dex focus is far stronger. If you can spare the Int,Combat Expertise into Improved X is a solid feat set up, as is Extra Readied Maneuver/Advanced Training.

And NEVER take Martial Training on an initiator. Advanced Training is just better, since it lets you use your normal recovery method.

[Enyo]

Again, Concealed Recovery requires you to use Stalker Recovery. Which is terrible. And you can trait/tradition into Veiled Moon if you want it that badly.

I recommend Weapon Finesse/Deadly Agility. You'll be in light armor, so Dex focus is far stronger. If you can spare the Int,Combat Expertise into Improved X is a solid feat set up, as is Extra Readied Maneuver/Advanced Training.

And NEVER take Martial Training on an initiator. Advanced Training is just better, since it lets you use your normal recovery method.

Noted. Anything for combat feats?

Also, what do you think of Primal Fury in general?

[Vhaidara]

Well, all of the ones I listed are combat feats. Enforcer is a fun one, since Warlords usually have a good Cha. It gives you a free Intimidate check whenever you deal nonlethal.

Primal Fury, like Broken Blade, is currently broken to hell and back. It has been confirmed that both are getting nerfed via errata once Path of War: Expanded ships (right guys?). Fury has issues with raw flat damage bonuses being too high (Primal Wrath with a 2 hander = +6 damage, other first level maneuvers =+1d6), while Blade is all about extra attacks.Like, here's a breakdown of high damage Blade combos for each maneuver level. They all assume Pugilist's Stanceforthe extra d6 ofdamage
1: Flurry Strike + out of discipline boost. I favor Seraph's Strength of Hell for +2 to hit and +1d6 damage. Standard and Swift, attack twice at +2, deal normal damage +2d6 each
2: Bronze Knuckle + Flurry Strike: same as above, but you're getting +3d6 now and ignoring DR. Also worth noting that there are some good discipline weapons (Temple Sword is a good call for being able to two hand with the discipline)
3: Steel Flurry Strike + Bronze Knuckle. Standard+Swift, 3 attacks, each dealing +6d6
4: Steel Flurry Strike +Iron Knuckle. Standard+Swift, 3 attacks, each at +8d6.

Bear in mind for those bonuses I'm giving: they ignore base weapon damage, Str Mod, enhancement bonus, or anything else that ISN'T from a maneuver

[Enyo]

Well, all of the ones I listed are combat feats. Enforcer is a fun one, since Warlords usually have a good Cha. It gives you a free Intimidate check whenever you deal nonlethal.

Primal Fury, like Broken Blade, is currently broken to hell and back. It has been confirmed that both are getting nerfed via errata once Path of War: Expanded ships (right guys?). Fury has issues with raw flat damage bonuses being too high (Primal Wrath with a 2 hander = +6 damage, other first level maneuvers =+1d6), while Blade is all about extra attacks.Like, here's a breakdown of high damage Blade combos for each maneuver level. They all assume Pugilist's Stanceforthe extra d6 ofdamage
1: Flurry Strike + out of discipline boost. I favor Seraph's Strength of Hell for +2 to hit and +1d6 damage. Standard and Swift, attack twice at +2, deal normal damage +2d6 each
2: Bronze Knuckle + Flurry Strike: same as above, but you're getting +3d6 now and ignoring DR. Also worth noting that there are some good discipline weapons (Temple Sword is a good call for being able to two hand with the discipline)
3: Steel Flurry Strike + Bronze Knuckle. Standard+Swift, 3 attacks, each dealing +6d6
4: Steel Flurry Strike +Iron Knuckle. Standard+Swift, 3 attacks, each at +8d6.

Bear in mind for those bonuses I'm giving: they ignore base weapon damage, Str Mod, enhancement bonus, or anything else that ISN'T from a maneuver

I meant unarmed offensive feats like grapples and strikes that have certain effects.

Is it impossible to be Dragon Fury as a Steelfist Commando since the latter trades away Primal Fury?

[Vhaidara]

Are you looking for feats or maneuvers? Because you say strikes, which aren't feats.

And you can certainly go into Dragon Fury as a Steelfist. All Dragon Fury requires is investment in Thrashing Dragon, which, if your GM allows you to do TWF with unarmed strikes, actually compliments Steelfist quite nicely. And you most certainly should be able to, since the Brawler class' Flurry ability works by giving you TWF, and is specifically designed around unarmed combat

[Enyo]

I meant feats like improved grapple, disarm, and hamalatu strike.

So there's no way of getting Primal Fury back via the Bloody Fangs martial tradition or Dragon Fury?

[Vhaidara]

Why wouldn't you be able to get it back? Discipline access goes as follows
1. Class disciplines
2. Archetype modifications
3. Trait/Tradition

Prestige classes are entirely separate. They don't even care what you had for your disciplines pre entry. They have their own things.

[Enyo]

Oh, okay. Just another thing I really need clearing up.

Any of the normal/advanced rogue talents worth taking or should I stick with combat feats/strikes such as improved grapple, disarm, trip, power attack, improved natural attack, etc.? Pretty much stuff from this list: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats

[Psyren]

You can only take Combat Trick (and "Feat") once, so even if there were no better options, you'd still have to pick something else. Those are both the number one picks for their respective tiers however, of course.

But yes, there are some good rogue talents there. Canny Observer, Fast Stealth, Slow Reactions, Trap Spotter, Finesse Rogue (retrain into this and free up a feat), Resiliency, and Weapon Training are the standouts at the standard tier. At the advanced tier, you want Skill Mastery, Opportunist, Crippling Strike, Entanglement of Blades, Fast Tumble, and Unwitting Ally.

I strongly recommend using the Unchained Rogue instead though.

[Enyo]

Two more questions and I'm done.

Are trips, grapples, and disarms worth taking at all as a medium-sized human?

And can I take levels in brawler to increase my unarmed damage?

[Psyren]

Two more questions and I'm done.

Ask as many as you like :smallsmile:



Are trips, grapples, and disarms worth taking at all as a medium-sized human?

Yes, just keep in mind there are various enemies that all of these will fail against, so plan accordingly and have a synergistic backup (e.g. high melee damage.)
But grappling is a little better in PF because there is no size cap anymore - a gnome can grapple a dinosaur if he/she is strong enough. However, making a combat maneuver good takes several feats and items, so you're going to want to limit yourself to optimizing one or at most two.



And can I take levels in brawler to increase my unarmed damage?

Yes, but what was the main class you were going with again?

[Enyo]

Ask as many as you like :smallsmile:

Yes, just keep in mind there are various enemies that all of these will fail against, so plan accordingly and have a synergistic backup (e.g. high melee damage.)
But grappling is a little better in PF because there is no size cap anymore - a gnome can grapple a dinosaur if he/she is strong enough. However, making a combat maneuver good takes several feats and items, so you're going to want to limit yourself to optimizing one or at most two.

Yes, but what was the main class you were going with again?

Thanks, felt like I was getting pretty annoying.

Plan to primarily be a Steelfist Commando, but might end up doing that all the way instead of dipping Brawler for damage because of a previous thread about how the unarmed damage from a class from a warblade/monk hybrid didn't stack with Superior Unarmed Strike, so I assume it might be the same for Greater Unarmed Strike in Pathfinder.

[Psyren]

Ah - sorry, I have no idea if GUS/SUS is able to or meant to stack with Brawler levels etc. That would probably be a question for the PoW folks.

[Enyo]

Where can I post to ask about it?

[Psyren]

Where can I post to ask about it?

Either here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?417748-Dreamscarred-Press-Path-of-War-Expanded!-(Discussion-Thread-V)) or here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?420178-Pathfinder-Dreamscarred-Press-FAQ) would be my guess.

[Telonius]

What would be an in-character reason for someone, namely a human, to not use any weapons or magic to fight at all? I'd rather not go with the mystical monk/martial arts academy student route because it's been done to death, but whenever I try to think of something else, I end up scrapping it because it just feels like they're putting themselves at a disadvantage by not picking up either of the above.

An in-character reason not to use magic: the character isn't smart or charismatic enough to do so (Intelligence and Charisma at 10 or less). This explanation could work for low-Wisdom characters as well. If they have a higher Wisdom, they might just not have a deity or cause they're particularly attached to; or they generally like a Deity but the church has some restriction on Clerics that they don't want to (or can't) follow. (Can't marry, will only accept a certain gender, only the firstborn can be a Cleric, must wear a ridiculous hat at all times, etc).

[Enyo]

Would taking Combat Expertise and other feats similar to it hurt me in the long run offensively? The reason being is that the character is escaping from a prison camp wearing nothing but rags and is cursed to not be able to use weapons and armor.

[Vhaidara]

Not seeing any connection between that and Combat Expertise.

Though you will need Combat Expertise or Martial Power to go int the Combat Maneuver feats (Trips and the like)

[Psyren]

My assumption is that, being unable to wear armor, he plans to fight defensively for some added AC.

@OP: Whether it hurts you depends on what you're playing as (core monk, yes, Unchained or Brawler, not as much) and as Keledrath mentioned you'll need it anyway for many combat maneuver chains.

Note however that if you use the Combat Stamina system from Unchained, you can use it without needing the Intelligence tax.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

What would be an in-character reason for someone, namely a human, to not use any weapons or magic to fight at all? I'd rather not go with the mystical monk/martial arts academy student route because it's been done to death, but whenever I try to think of something else, I end up scrapping it because it just feels like they're putting themselves at a disadvantage by not picking up either of the above.

Because he doesn't need to. That's more or less the reason I default to. Your character likes to fight, and takes pride in doing the job properly. Your character recognizes that others might not take him seriously and that gives him an advantage. Your character believes in the Marquis of Kwangsbury rules, and that means no weapons. Khelgar from Neverwinter Nights 2, while a bit of a one-note character, has some interesting hintings at some of this. Thibbledorf Pwent, if you squint, is an unarmed fighter, and he doesn't use weapons because he's too dumb to bother. Wulfgar develops some unarmed tendencies because he's all :smallfrown: about his life and that makes him interesting and mature and... I should stop slagging off Salvatore.

And I also want to throw out there that the "martial arts academy student" doesn't have to be a guy hopping from pole to pole doing high kicks, yelling "kyaaaaaaaa!" and shaving his head. That character could just as easily be a little girl, living in an isolated, oppressed town, who wants to follow in the footsteps of her big brother, a local hero who died in the boxing ring. That's a really reductionist version of the plot of Santa Olivia (which, if you haven't read it, it's excellent).

[Enyo]

My assumption is that, being unable to wear armor, he plans to fight defensively for some added AC.

@OP: Whether it hurts you depends on what you're playing as (core monk, yes, Unchained or Brawler, not as much) and as Keledrath mentioned you'll need it anyway for many combat maneuver chains.

Note however that if you use the Combat Stamina system from Unchained, you can use it without needing the Intelligence tax.

Might be too much for me to keep track of stamina points on top of the fancy maneuvers, stances, gambits, etc. I get as a Warlord, if it even includes Path of War classes. Do I need to have the feat in order to do them?

Is spending feats on greater disarm worth it?

[nijineko]

What would be an in-character reason for someone, namely a human, to not use any weapons or magic to fight at all? I'd rather not go with the mystical monk/martial arts academy student route because it's been done to death, but whenever I try to think of something else, I end up scrapping it because it just feels like they're putting themselves at a disadvantage by not picking up either of the above.

you may want to check out the "till death do us part" manga. it has a similar theme: sword dude determined to make swords relevant in the modern world of guns, bombs, drones, and other modern tech. oh, and he's blind.

[Psyren]

Might be too much for me to keep track of stamina points on top of the fancy maneuvers, stances, gambits, etc. I get as a Warlord, if it even includes Path of War classes. Do I need to have the feat in order to do them?

Yes, but one of the options is to have all martial classes get the feat for free.



Is spending feats on greater disarm worth it?

This depends a lot on your campaign - if you're fighting lots of enemies with weapons this can be a good way to render them ineffective at minimal risk to yourself. If you're fighting lots of monsters with natural weapons then it becomes completely useless no matter how much you optimize it.

[Enyo]

I see.

Am I able to take the Improved Natural Weapon feat to increase my unarmed damage, or is it only available to monsters?

[ZamielVanWeber]

I see.

Am I able to take the Improved Natural Weapon feat to increase my unarmed damage, or is it only available to monsters?

You may take INW to increase your unarmed damage from monk explicitly. You may not with the unarmed strike from IUS.

[Enyo]

You may take INW to increase your unarmed damage from monk explicitly. You may not with the unarmed strike from IUS.

Well that stinks. Unless the DM is nice enough to let me take it since unarmed combat's still pretty weak even in Pathfinder, but I highly doubt that since I get a bunch of offensive maneuvers, especially when I get to Dragon Fury.

[shaikujin]

For another weird idea, the character was born without opposable thumbs (or had a freak accident or was tortured resulting in both thumbs being amputated), and thus cannot hold a weapon...

[Enyo]

Another thing about feats. Which route should I go on knocking enemies down, taking improved trip then greater trip, or punishing kick?