Help building zerathul

[Temennigru]

I'm trying to build zerathul from starcraft and I already have a few ideas to start off:

Use a +1 flaming gnome quickrazor to replicate his weapon
Get the dark creature template for flavor and use hide in plain sight to make him "invisible"


I'm looking for a race/template that could simulate a protoss and a class that could replicate the flavor of a dark templar or a templar assassin. Some nice piece of cool and useful technology such as construct grafts for added flavor would also be nice.

UPDATE:
Perhaps a soulknife "optimized" for iaijutsu focus would be a nice choice?

[noob]

Maybe a ring of force-shield or of mage armor renamed and reskinned for being more stracraftish.
Also you could use as a base one shadar kai(a name of this kind) from fiend folio(even if it might not be perfect) and not need shadow creature.
Also are you the gm?

[Temennigru]

Maybe a ring of force-shield or of mage armor renamed and reskinned for being more stracraftish.
Also you could use as a base one shadar kai(a name of this kind) from fiend folio(even if it might not be perfect) and not need shadow creature.
Also are you the gm?

I am a player

Also, aren't shadar kai chaotic? Zerathul NEEDS to be lawful neutral.

Now that I actually looked them up, they actually seem pretty fun to play! But I would still need a template to make him look like a protoss.

[Karl Aegis]

...What is a zerathul? Is that the name of one of those hybrid destroyers or something?

[Temennigru]

...What is a zerathul? Is that the name of one of those hybrid destroyers or something?

http://starcraft.wikia.com/wiki/Zeratul

[noob]

The alignment of shadar kai is "generally neutral evil" so it means deviations are not so much uncommon so a lawful neutral shadar kai could be perfectly possible without even needing stories of being outcast.

[Dusk Eclipse]

You might want to check the Shadow Creature template from Lords of Madness, the Shadow Blend is pretty much a better version of HiPS

[Brova]

The obvious choice is to get persistent greater invisibility at some point, so you can walk around stabbing people while still invisible. The lowest level at which greater invisibility appears on a spell list is 2nd, on the Telflammar Shadowlord list. So you can either find a Teflammar Shadowlord scroll of it and scribe it to your spellbook as a Wizard and cast it at third, or make wands of it as an Artificer and make wands or scrolls of it at first. Unfortunately, persisting it is harder. Off the top of my head, a 7th level Artificer could use metamagic spell trigger, a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 could use metamagic effect, or a 5th level Anima Mage could use vestige metamagic. The fastest you can do it is 7th, either as an Artificer or an Anima Mage with double early entry.

So getting greater invisibility by class is probably out. None of those classes really fit Zeratul well, though you can do something with Artificer. However, there is an alternative. A continuous magic item costs Spell Level * Caster Level * 2,000 GP. For a CL 1 item of the Teflammar Shadowlord's 2nd level improved invisibility, that's 4,000 GP - a price which can be handily afforded at 4th level. You can then take whatever class takes your fancy, probably something with precision damage. Rogue is likely to be best, though something can be said for Mystic Ranger (particular in the 4th to 10th range).

[Temennigru]

The obvious choice is to get persistent greater invisibility at some point, so you can walk around stabbing people while still invisible. The lowest level at which greater invisibility appears on a spell list is 2nd, on the Telflammar Shadowlord list. So you can either find a Teflammar Shadowlord scroll of it and scribe it to your spellbook as a Wizard and cast it at third, or make wands of it as an Artificer and make wands or scrolls of it at first. Unfortunately, persisting it is harder. Off the top of my head, a 7th level Artificer could use metamagic spell trigger, a Wizard 5/Incantatrix 3 could use metamagic effect, or a 5th level Anima Mage could use vestige metamagic. The fastest you can do it is 7th, either as an Artificer or an Anima Mage with double early entry.

So getting greater invisibility by class is probably out. None of those classes really fit Zeratul well, though you can do something with Artificer. However, there is an alternative. A continuous magic item costs Spell Level * Caster Level * 2,000 GP. For a CL 1 item of the Teflammar Shadowlord's 2nd level improved invisibility, that's 4,000 GP - a price which can be handily afforded at 4th level. You can then take whatever class takes your fancy, probably something with precision damage. Rogue is likely to be best, though something can be said for Mystic Ranger (particular in the 4th to 10th range).

A regular invisibility would fit zerathul better, as he leaves invis when attacking.
I'm also considering getting a psychic rogue, as protoss are psionic.

[Karl Aegis]

Notice how the spelling changes the pronunciation of the word. Zer•a•tul is completely different from Ze•rath•ul.

[noob]

You could also try sneak attack+ring of blinking+ring of invisibility and basically for all the fight you can go in full sneak attack dealing tons of damage per turn (at lvl 20 you can do 5 sneak attacks) and avoid some attacks if the opponent can not hit ethereal people.

[Vhaidara]

I've actually considered this myself. My personal favorite used Pathfinder material.

Soulknife, with the War Soul archetype. Use a trait or tradition to access the Mithral Current discipline, which is focused on iiajutsu strikes. You have your mind blade to work as a warp blade, and maneuvers ensure that you are a capable fighter. Grab a ring of invisibility or dip ninja for your invis.

Soulknife is from psionics unleashed, war soul is from path of war, and Mithral Current is from the path of war expanded playtest.

[Temennigru]

You could also try sneak attack+ring of blinking+ring of invisibility and basically for all the fight you can go in full sneak attack dealing tons of damage per turn (at lvl 20 you can do 5 sneak attacks) and avoid some attacks if the opponent can not hit ethereal people.

I might just mix sneak attack + iaijutsu focus making a Str + Cha + Dex + Con based character (I rolled 16 16 14 14 11 11 for this character, so I can have 4 good stats), but I really want to focus on hiding. I might get travel devotion instead of ring of blinking as I have absolutely no feats to my build as of yet (although I might get hardened criminal to take 10 in iaijutsu focus)

As for the race, I checked out most of the races I could find in my books and I didn't find a satisfyingly protoss-like one. I might just pick human and ask the DM to have a protoss skin, or just make up my own race called protoss that works exactly like human.

[Brova]

A regular invisibility would fit zerathul better, as he leaves invis when attacking.

Uh, I don't think that's true. Unless there's a story/gameplay distinction I missed, Zeratul is invisible all the time. All dark templar are.

[Temennigru]

Uh, I don't think that's true. Unless there's a story/gameplay distinction I missed, Zeratul is invisible all the time. All dark templar are.

When you attack with him in the game he becomes visible.

[Chronos]

In gameplay, he's always invisible all the time, and is only seen via detectors. In cutscenes, of course, this would be boring, so they mostly show him as visible (though I suppose it might be cool to see hydralisks just suddenly falling apart into two pieces with no apparent cause). I think the implication is that when he's interacting with Raynor or Tassadar, he's choosing to make himself visible (which he presumably can do, but which has no value in gameplay), and that when he's interacting with Kerrigan, he's visible to her because she's a detector, and is shown visible to us by convention.

Also in gameplay, he has the ability to teleport short distances, and can put enemies into an incapacitating stasis prison for a few seconds at a time.

[noob]

Only in SC2 gameplay in SC1 he had only cloaking,high damage and shield.
Supreme invisibility is not going to give you sneak attacks when you are in invisibility negation zone while blinking does works and if you have protected mind you are immune to divination and so your bonus from blinking can not be removed without dispelling which is an active action your opponent do while the fight.
So blinking is a correct backup.

[Temennigru]

Only in SC2 gameplay in SC1 he had only cloaking,high damage and shield.
Supreme invisibility is not going to give you sneak attacks when you are in invisibility negation zone while blinking does works and if you have protected mind you are immune to divination and so your bonus from blinking can not be removed without dispelling which is an active action your opponent do while the fight.
So blinking is a correct backup.

That's where hiding + Travel Devotion comes in =)
Move in, strike, hide, move away.

Someone said dark creature template from LoM was superior, but the one I know is LA +1 instead of LA +2 and from what I understand, HiPS is exactly the same as shadow blend.
Just realized no hide check Oo

[Keltest]

When you attack with him in the game he becomes visible.

Youre thinking of Heroes of the Storm, which is not canon nor representative of his actual capabilities. In SC1, BW and Wings of Liberty Zeratul is capable of attacking while cloaked, as are all units with cloak.

[Vhaidara]

As far as race, I've been toying with the idea.
+2 dex, +2 wis, -2 cha. Protoss seem to favor speed over strength, and have strong, well trained minds. However, they also generally seem reserved, disinclined from interaction with others.
Medium
Humanoid (protoss)
Naturally psionic
Telepathy
Mute

[Keltest]

As far as race, I've been toying with the idea.
+2 dex, +2 wis, -2 cha. Protoss seem to favor speed over strength, and have strong, well trained minds. However, they also generally seem reserved, disinclined from interaction with others.
Medium
Humanoid (protoss)
Naturally psionic
Telepathy
Mute

I would replace wis with int, unless youre going for separate subraces for Khalai and Dark Templar protoss. The protoss are highly intelligent, but they are not as a species all that more wise than humans or any other race.

[Vhaidara]

I went with wis over int because I see them having more students and psywars than full psions. also, heavy religious connotations, lending towards cleric. Their intelligence seems to come more from long lives and a society that values education than natural gifts.

[Xerlith]

So far and nobody did this yet? Nobody? Come on...

Shadow Creature [Elan or Xeph] Factotum 3/Hit-And-Run Exoticist1/Swordsage15. Iaijutsu, invisibility, short-range teleportation... And delicious Diamond Mind maneuvers...

If you're going 3.5, you certainly don't want to be a Soulknife. Because soulknifes are terrible in 3.5 :smallconfused:

[SecretlyaFish]

Is there a reason you are spelling it wrong? Its spelled Zeratul in the game, its pronounced Zeratul, are you trying to be edgy or something?

[Keltest]

I went with wis over int because I see them having more students and psywars than full psions. also, heavy religious connotations, lending towards cleric. Their intelligence seems to come more from long lives and a society that values education than natural gifts.

the age doesn't hurt, but the fact of the matter is that their brains are just better than ours.

Almost every time the protoss lose something its because their leadership is terrible at prioritizing. Even their greatest hero makes a massive error in judgment that nearly results in their extinction. (this is, oddly enough, never brought up again.)

[noob]

"That's where hiding + Travel Devotion comes in =)
Move in, strike, hide, move away."
You can not do 5 sneak attacks in one turn this way since you used one movement action one attack and one travel devotion.
While with blinking you can just stay near the opponent and deal full round sneak attack dealing like 50d6+5*dmg of attack(40d- if you take no class with strong bba)-20% because of miss chance(yes I know it feels powerful but this combo is 100% base manuals).
Also your travel devotion will not work tons of times.
So if you think you can kill an opponent with 5 sneak attacks you might economize time if you have a ring of blinking and it costs only 27000 it also makes you avoid some attacks.
And when you already used your travel devotion your blinking ring can helps you.
But I see it becomes a so particular case that you will hardly use it so I understand why you do not take the ring so that you can spend more on stats and etc.
(for the race I think it should have a level adjustment of +1 and that you should specify protoss does not needs to eat or drink)

[Temennigru]

"That's where hiding + Travel Devotion comes in =)
Move in, strike, hide, move away."
You can not do 5 sneak attacks in one turn this way since you used one movement action one attack and one travel devotion.
While with blinking you can just stay near the opponent and deal full round sneak attack dealing like 50d6+5*dmg of attack(40d- if you take no class with strong bba)-20% because of miss chance(yes I know it feels powerful but this combo is 100% base manuals).
Also your travel devotion will not work tons of times.
So if you think you can kill an opponent with 5 sneak attacks you might economize time if you have a ring of blinking and it costs only 27000 it also makes you avoid some attacks.
And when you already used your travel devotion your blinking ring can helps you.
But I see it becomes a so particular case that you will hardly use it so I understand why you do not take the ring so that you can spend more on stats and etc.
(for the race I think it should have a level adjustment of +1 and that you should specify protoss does not needs to eat or drink)
That's not how zeratul works and that's where iaijutsu focus helps. It gives me a full round's damage with 1 attack. We are also not lvl 30 for me to get 5 attacks off in a full round. We are lvl 4. I'm also not confortable over-optimizing a top-down build, as flavor is the predominant factor I'm trying to optimize.



Is there a reason you are spelling it wrong? Its spelled Zeratul in the game, its pronounced Zeratul, are you trying to be edgy or something?

I always heard it pronounced with THU instead of TU, so I assumed it had an H.


I went with wis over int because I see them having more students and psywars than full psions. also, heavy religious connotations, lending towards cleric. Their intelligence seems to come more from long lives and a society that values education than natural gifts.

Protoss are in no way wise. They are self-centered and blinded by their arrogance. I would give them -2 to Wis even though you would see protoss as a psy-warrior type. I've seen races with Wizard as favored class that have -2 Int.

I would make them as such:


+2 Int, -2 wis, -2 cha. Protoss are self-centered and arrogant, what makes them anti-social and blind to the consequences of their actions, but they have a superior intellect.
Medium
Humanoid (protoss)
Naturally psionic
Protoss can create a shield around themselves. Once per day, as a swift action, they can gain 5 temporary hit points per 3 hit dice (minimum 5). At 10 hit dice, they gain one more daily use of this ability.
Favored class: Psy Warrior

[Urpriest]

That's not how zeratul works and that's where iaijutsu focus helps. It gives me a full round's damage with 1 attack.

No, it gives you slightly higher 1 attack's damage with 1 attack. You're still incentivized to make multiple attacks with it.

Anyway, the race should be some subrace of Elf, since Protoss are Eldar and Eldar are Space Elves. Definitely a psionic class. I think Soulknife should be fine, provided you're allowed to use the Pathfinder version.

[Temennigru]

No, it gives you slightly higher 1 attack's damage with 1 attack. You're still incentivized to make multiple attacks with it.

Anyway, the race should be some subrace of Elf, since Protoss are Eldar and Eldar are Space Elves. Definitely a psionic class. I think Soulknife should be fine, provided you're allowed to use the Pathfinder version.

Not if you optimize iaijutsu focus with +cha items. There is an amulet that gives you +3 to cha checks (competence) for 4.5k. You can make a iaijutsu focus +10 (enhancement) item for 10k. If you pay 640gp, you can add the focus property to your weapon, which gives you +4 (insight). Just with that, you get +2d6 worth of damage. If you take 10, that goes up to +4d6. If you get some ranks in, you can get some mean damage off. If you take a couple levels in iaijutsu master, you add Cha bonus to each damage dice.

[Urpriest]

Not if you optimize iaijutsu focus with +cha items. There is an amulet that gives you +3 to cha checks (competence) for 4.5k. You can make a iaijutsu focus +10 (circumstance) item for 10k. If you pay 640gp, you can add the focus property to your weapon, which gives you +4 (insight). Just with that, you get +2d6 worth of damage. If you take 10, that goes up to +4d6. If you get some ranks in, you can get some mean damage off.

Yeah, and if you have multiple attacks you can do that on every attack, provided you're using quickrazors or the like. So you still want multiple attacks.

[Temennigru]

Yeah, and if you have multiple attacks you can do that on every attack, provided you're using quickrazors or the like. So you still want multiple attacks.

Iaijutsu focus doesn't work on iterative attacks.

[Urpriest]

Iaijutsu focus doesn't work on iterative attacks.

Your OP has a quickrazor in it. The whole point of using a quickrazor is so you can sheathe and draw your weapon between attacks, and thus use Iaijutsu focus on multiple attacks. Whatever thread suggested you use a quickrazor would have already explained that.

[Temennigru]

Your OP has a quickrazor in it. The whole point of using a quickrazor is so you can sheathe and draw your weapon between attacks, and thus use Iaijutsu focus on multiple attacks. Whatever thread suggested you use a quickrazor would have already explained that.

Opponent has to be flat-footed. Not just the quickdraw thing. I also don't like over-optimizing top-down builds, like I said earlier.

[Urpriest]

Opponent has to be flat-footed. Not just the quickdraw thing. I also don't like over-optimizing top-down builds, like I said earlier.

Ah sorry, had lost track of the fact that you were opposed for other reasons to getting some form of Hide in Plain Sight and hiding between attacks.

I still think that if you're doing this from a top-down perspective then the ability to stay invisible without running off and hiding somewhere is pretty central to the character.

[Temennigru]

Ah sorry, had lost track of the fact that you were opposed for other reasons to getting some form of Hide in Plain Sight and hiding between attacks.

I still think that if you're doing this from a top-down perspective then the ability to stay invisible without running off and hiding somewhere is pretty central to the character.

You can't hide between attacks, and Shadow Blend lets me hide. I also don't feel very comfortable standing next to an enemy when I have 13 life. I would rather move in, attack, back out and hide.

Also, the whole point of me using quickrazor is because zeratul uses an energy wrist blade, and I'm replicating that with a riverine quickrazor. Not because I want to eat it with ham and bread.

[Urpriest]

You can't hide between attacks

You can, actually, if you have Hide in Plain Sight. Hiding while attacking is explicitly a -20 penalty. It's stiff, but it's not too hard to accumulate a large number of bonuses to Hide. Being constantly hidden also helps with the whole "standing next to an enemy thing", since they can't target you if they don't know where you are. But regardless, if you're not going for that optimization level that's fine.



Also, the whole point of me using quickrazor is because zeratul uses an energy wrist blade, and I'm replicating that with a riverine quickrazor. Not because I want to eat it with ham and bread.

Oh I see, it's a visual thing? Katars look quite a bit more like Zeratul's weapon than quickrazors. Though I guess that increases the value of something like Soulknife, or Psychic Warrior with the Soulbound Weapon ACF.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Swordsage/shadow hand, lurk and psychic warrior are really the ones I'd be looking at thematically. I'm not sure how heavy that armour is supposed to be (the shoulderpads are heavy, but the rest?). If it's heavy armour, a pretty much homebrew build is psychic warrior/crusader/swordsage/psionic ruby knight vindicator.

... okay, that's a big stretch. Maybe try a regular RKV. Shadow Hand maneuvers, armoured stealth, refluff divine casting into psionics. Or how about a phrenic shadow sun ninja?

[Keltest]

Swordsage/shadow hand, lurk and psychic warrior are really the ones I'd be looking at thematically. I'm not sure how heavy that armour is supposed to be (the shoulderpads are heavy, but the rest?). If it's heavy armour, a pretty much homebrew build is psychic warrior/crusader/swordsage/psionic ruby knight vindicator.

... okay, that's a big stretch. Maybe try a regular RKV. Shadow Hand maneuvers, armoured stealth, refluff divine casting into psionics. Or how about a phrenic shadow sun ninja?

Zeratul's armor is entirely ornamental except for the bracer with the Warp Blade on it (although the gems in the shoulderpads may enhance his psionic powers). It also contains a teleportation device to warp him back to safety should he become critically injured, but since its part of his armor, its not exactly reliable.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Alright, thanks for clearing that up, and consider the RKV suggestion withdrawn :smallsmile:.

[Urpriest]

Swordsage/shadow hand, lurk and psychic warrior are really the ones I'd be looking at thematically. I'm not sure how heavy that armour is supposed to be (the shoulderpads are heavy, but the rest?). If it's heavy armour, a pretty much homebrew build is psychic warrior/crusader/swordsage/psionic ruby knight vindicator.

... okay, that's a big stretch. Maybe try a regular RKV. Shadow Hand maneuvers, armoured stealth, refluff divine casting into psionics. Or how about a phrenic shadow sun ninja?

Swordsage would also help incentivize single attacks over full attacks, if that matters to the OP.

[Temennigru]

Zeratul's armor is entirely ornamental except for the bracer with the Warp Blade on it (although the gems in the shoulderpads may enhance his psionic powers). It also contains a teleportation device to warp him back to safety should he become critically injured, but since its part of his armor, its not exactly reliable.

I was using psychoactive skin as armor. 3k for +8 psionic armor Sounds like something a protoss would use.


Swordsage/shadow hand, lurk and psychic warrior are really the ones I'd be looking at thematically. I'm not sure how heavy that armour is supposed to be (the shoulderpads are heavy, but the rest?). If it's heavy armour, a pretty much homebrew build is psychic warrior/crusader/swordsage/psionic ruby knight vindicator.

... okay, that's a big stretch. Maybe try a regular RKV. Shadow Hand maneuvers, armoured stealth, refluff divine casting into psionics. Or how about a phrenic shadow sun ninja?

I really want to give DSP's soulknife a try. I found this fun build centered around killing small mobs to charge up my mind blade

[Chronos]

Except for certain very unusual situations (none of which has been mentioned yet in this thread), if your opponent is flatfooted against your first attack, he's going to be flatfooted against all of them. But you still need some way for him to be flatfooted, which usually means either going before he does, or forcing him to Balance if he doesn't have enough ranks in it.

[Sacrieur]

You mean Zeratul.

For reference he's basically a cross between a stalker and a psi-war. For uh, 3.5, your options here are more limited. But definitely something with swordsage.

[Urpriest]

I was using psychoactive skin as armor. 3k for +8 psionic armor Sounds like something a protoss would use.



I really want to give DSP's soulknife a try. I found this fun build centered around killing small mobs to charge up my mind blade

Sounds cool. I think DSP's soulknife has an archetype that gives it some psionic powers, so you might not need the psychoactive skin if you can pick up the Inertial Armor power instead. (Also, I can't find a skin that cheap that grants that benefit, what source are you getting it from?)

[Sacrieur]

Soulknife won't work unless he can turn invisible and dimension door at will.

[Urpriest]

Soulknife won't work unless he can turn invisible and dimension door at will.

Eh, often enough to matter is probably sufficient. And Shadow Creature does give most of the benefits of invisibility, though admittedly it's not great if you're starting at 4th level.

[Temennigru]

(Also, I can't find a skin that cheap that grants that benefit, what source are you getting it from?)

CPsi, 110


Soulknife won't work unless he can turn invisible and dimension door at will.

I can hide at will. Dimension door isn't as good as people think it is.
I'm also using DSP's soulknife.

[Urpriest]

CPsi, 110

Ah, hadn't seen that one before. It won't scale well, but at this level it's reasonably solid.

[Temennigru]

I figured taking martial study at lvl 6 for shadow jaunt and martial stance at lvl 12 for assassin's stance could be nice. Any thoughts?

[Urpriest]

I figured taking martial study at lvl 6 for shadow jaunt and martial stance at lvl 12 for assassin's stance could be nice. Any thoughts?

Could work. Though it might be better to just dip a level or two of Swordsage.

[Sacrieur]

I can hide at will. Dimension door isn't as good as people think it is.
I'm also using DSP's soulknife.

It's important that he can actually turn invisible since that's pretty much one of his most core abilities. He can also teleport. If you can get those two abilities then you'd be set. If you were to do this with DSP's Stalker and the Veiled Moon discipline with a level dip in Soulknife you would have pretty much nailed it.

[Temennigru]

Our DM enforces XP penalty for multiclass FYI


It's important that he can actually turn invisible since that's pretty much one of his most core abilities. He can also teleport. If you can get those two abilities then you'd be set.

I'm gonna get a ring of invis next level. That with shadow jaunt at lvl 6 gets me all I need.

[Urpriest]

Our DM enforces XP penalty for multiclass FYI


You might consider playing a Xeph, then. It's not the greatest race in general, but they do look a lot like Protoss, and Favored Class: Soulknife makes it much easier to dip interesting things.

[Temennigru]

You might consider playing a Xeph, then. It's not the greatest race in general, but they do look a lot like Protoss, and Favored Class: Soulknife makes it much easier to dip interesting things.

Meh. Xephs just duplicate a lot of the stuff I have and gives Str penalty.
Now that I remember it, humans have "Favored class: Any", and since the protoss race I made is just a clone of humans, multiclassing won't be a problem.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Look into shadowpouncing.

[Temennigru]

Look into shadowpouncing.

That's a class feature for 2 prestige classes.
Both of them have spring attack and tons of other investments that I'm not willing to take (Such as sneak attack 2d6) for entry. Aside from that, pouncing is not so great for me. I get an extra attack every 7 levels, so I won't be getting any benefit from full attacks any time soon.

My build as of now is focused around attacking small minions with cleave while charging my psychic strike.

UPDATE I gave up on soulknife. There aren't enough good feats to make it work. Instead I'm building a swordsage, which is much easier.


Also, here is my latest take on protoss. Since it has balanced stats and is based on a human taking hidden talent as the bonus feat, it is undeniably balanced:
Protoss
+2 Str, -2 Wis
Naturally psionic
+2 PP at lvl 1
Vigor as a bonus power
Favored class: Any psionic class