[3.P] magus: magic weapon (object), magic weapon (spell) and arcane pool

[Raezeman]

Greetings,

the pathfinder magus piked my interest, and i have a question concerning the class feature 'arcane pool' when used together with the 'magic weapon' spell.

Arcane pool let's you add enchantment bonus to your weapon, stacking with existing weapon enhancement. It is this last phrase that is not completely clear to me. I understand how this works with a magic weapon (that you purchased), using arcane pool to add 1 enhancement bonus to a +1 weapon thus makes it a +2 weapon for the duration.
The real question is, does this work with the magic weapon spell? I mean, does the temporary effect of the spell count as existing weapon enhancement? Because this would greatly affect weather or not i take the spell 'greater magic weapon' later on.

Also, if anyone would like to talk about their experience with a magus, feel free to tell me all about it (know that i did check out 'Walter's guide to the magus')


friendly regards,
Raezeman

[Psyren]

Yes, it stacks with magic weapon (again however, no higher than +5.) Depending on how your GM reads "existing," you may be required to cast the spell first and then use the Arcane Pool, but otherwise it should be fine.

Magus is pretty mutable depending on your preferred combat style but your main choice is going to be Dex-based vs. Str-based. I prefer Dex personally, with an ability to get Dex to damage (e.g. Dervish Dance or Slashing Grace), but going that route means your eventual heavy armor proficiency is probably going to be wasted and you may want an archetype like Kensai to dump it.

[Katana1515]

The Magus is pretty much my favorite class, so I should be able to scrummage up some pointers.... Its been a while since I read Walters Guide in detail so forgive me if I repeat anything he said.

1. The Dex route is the one everyone mentions, and folk are right to say that its pretty awesome. You are however paying for it in Feats, and if you are starting at lvl 1, those first few levels till you get Dervish Dance can be a VERY long haul. If you decide to go that way, consider prepping spells like Colour Spray, and using a crossbow or something when your spells run out those first few levels. Strength is a perfectly good alternative, frees up valuable feat slots, and the benefits of wearing armor in the mid to late game are pretty good.

2. A couple of Magus spells that shouldn't ever be overlooked Bladed Dash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash) and Telekinetic Force Hook Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/force-hook-charge). These are extremely useful and a lot of fun, watch the fool who invested in acrobatics drool as you dash around the battlefield like a ninja on speed. Most importantly using spell combat these allow you to effectively pounce over short distances, which is pretty rare in PF. Combine with something like a spellstoring weapon for a surprisingly deadly first round full attack.

3. Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final) should be a feat you pick up ASAP, not having to bother casting defensively is a gift. Also combine with Greater Invisibility vs melee monsters and laugh as they try and guess which square you are in and fail.

4. Intensified shocking grasps and other magus attack spells are indeed awesome (check out Frigid Touch if you haven't already) but dont get into the trap of thinking that's all you should do every round. Using the same full attack sequence each round is what fighters are for, you didn't spend all those years in Magi school just to be a fighter did you? Spell Combat allows you to leverage the action economy to your advantage in unique ways, making many of the round per level defense spells and buffs much more useful for you than they are for conventional casters (not least because you are often going to be attacked more frequently). Spells like blur, mirror image and greater invisibility are good examples. (I like Empowered Caustic Blood on a tanky high level build.)

5. Its a small but crucial thing, remember that YOU decide the order of spellcasting/attacking when you use spell combat. Facing an opponent who looks like hes nearly dead but your fellow PCs are in trouble on the other side of the map? Full attack first and kill the guy in front of you, and then Force Hook Charge to the rescue!

6. Archetypes: Magus has some pretty cool archetypes but most of them have pretty substantial costs, so beware unexpected consequences. Kensai 'can' be cool for a dex magus, but losing a lot of its spells per day + Spell Recall/Improved Spell Recall is a pretty substantial blow, and I personally don't rate what you get in exchange. Bladebound is another popular one, and for good reason, many people like the advantage of a free weapon, its got interesting fluff and some of the BlackBlades own powers are pretty nifty. the reduction in your arcane pool can hurt though, and again if starting at lower levels not getting Arcane Accuracy until level 6 can be a serious pain for a medium BAB class that frequently gives itself -2 to hit already. Consider playing something like a Tiefling and using its unique racial favored class option to bring your Pool back up to par.

7. Skills, Magi get a fair few skill points on account of being Int Based, but get what I think is a kinda rubbish set of class skills. I like using a trait to get a magus good access to a talky skill of some description such as Bruising Intellect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/bruising-intellect). honestly this might be more because I cant stand DnD characters who don't communicate with NPCs on account of not having decent charisma than anything though :smallannoyed:

Its just passed midnight over here in the UK and I just got back from running Mage: The Awakening, so my brain is a little frazzeled right now, I might have some more suggestions post sleep. Also a disclaimer that all the above is just my opinion/play experience and is not to be taken as gospel :smallwink:

[Raezeman]

Thanks for all your advice so far!


The Magus is pretty much my favorite class, so I should be able to scrummage up some pointers.... Its been a while since I read Walters Guide in detail so forgive me if I repeat anything he said.



1. The Dex route is the one everyone mentions, and folk are right to say that its pretty awesome. You are however paying for it in Feats, and if you are starting at lvl 1, those first few levels till you get Dervish Dance can be a VERY long haul. If you decide to go that way, consider prepping spells like Colour Spray, and using a crossbow or something when your spells run out those first few levels. Strength is a perfectly good alternative, frees up valuable feat slots, and the benefits of wearing armor in the mid to late game are pretty good.

I did indeed hear many things about the dervish dance, but i think i prefer feats over dex. If this however means the early death of my character due to low at low levels, i'll let you know :p


2. A couple of Magus spells that shouldn't ever be overlooked Bladed Dash (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/bladed-dash) and Telekinetic Force Hook Charge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/f/force-hook-charge). These are extremely useful and a lot of fun, watch the fool who invested in acrobatics drool as you dash around the battlefield like a ninja on speed. Most importantly using spell combat these allow you to effectively pounce over short distances, which is pretty rare in PF. Combine with something like a spellstoring weapon for a surprisingly deadly first round full attack.

I am not sure which sources will be allowed, so that bladed dash might be off the books, but indeed that hookshot spell seems nice indeed!


3. Lunge (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/lunge-combat---final) should be a feat you pick up ASAP, not having to bother casting defensively is a gift. Also combine with Greater Invisibility vs melee monsters and laugh as they try and guess which square you are in and fail.

Is this really necessary? i mean reach is always nice, but i don't think casting defensively would pose much of a challenge, especially with the possibility with that bonus up to intelligence with spell combat? Also, checking the feat seems to show that you don't keep the reach during opponents turn for attacks of opportunity, and isn't the -2 AC hurtful on a melee character with not much AC to spare?


4. Intensified shocking grasps and other magus attack spells are indeed awesome (check out Frigid Touch if you haven't already) but dont get into the trap of thinking that's all you should do every round. Using the same full attack sequence each round is what fighters are for, you didn't spend all those years in Magi school just to be a fighter did you? Spell Combat allows you to leverage the action economy to your advantage in unique ways, making many of the round per level defense spells and buffs much more useful for you than they are for conventional casters (not least because you are often going to be attacked more frequently). Spells like blur, mirror image and greater invisibility are good examples. (I like Empowered Caustic Blood on a tanky high level build.)

Spell combat is exactly the reason why i want to play this guy. I also play 3.5 with a different group, and i made some battle sorcerer and abjurant champion builds (if that means anything to you), but that spell combat really draws my attention.


5. Its a small but crucial thing, remember that YOU decide the order of spellcasting/attacking when you use spell combat. Facing an opponent who looks like hes nearly dead but your fellow PCs are in trouble on the other side of the map? Full attack first and kill the guy in front of you, and then Force Hook Charge to the rescue!

yes yes, i did remember that :)


6. Archetypes: Magus has some pretty cool archetypes but most of them have pretty substantial costs, so beware unexpected consequences. Kensai 'can' be cool for a dex magus, but losing a lot of its spells per day + Spell Recall/Improved Spell Recall is a pretty substantial blow, and I personally don't rate what you get in exchange. Bladebound is another popular one, and for good reason, many people like the advantage of a free weapon, its got interesting fluff and some of the BlackBlades own powers are pretty nifty. the reduction in your arcane pool can hurt though, and again if starting at lower levels not getting Arcane Accuracy until level 6 can be a serious pain for a medium BAB class that frequently gives itself -2 to hit already. Consider playing something like a Tiefling and using its unique racial favored class option to bring your Pool back up to par.

looked at the archetypes, but i don't really think i will go for em.


7. Skills, Magi get a fair few skill points on account of being Int Based, but get what I think is a kinda rubbish set of class skills. I like using a trait to get a magus good access to a talky skill of some description such as Bruising Intellect (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/social-traits/bruising-intellect). honestly this might be more because I cant stand DnD characters who don't communicate with NPCs on account of not having decent charisma than anything though :smallannoyed:

i like knowledges, so arcana, planes, dungeoneering, and the rest probably to spellcraft and use magic devise. If there are more to hand out, i'll think about it then



Its just passed midnight over here in the UK and I just got back from running Mage: The Awakening, so my brain is a little frazzeled right now, I might have some more suggestions post sleep. Also a disclaimer that all the above is just my opinion/play experience and is not to be taken as gospel :smallwink:

Ok, more questions for you my friend:

-Power attack, yes or no (i'm thinking yes for when i'm done with casting a grab my scimitar two handed)
-which arcanas did you like? the ones that draw my attention are arcane accuracy, empowered and maximized magic (for vampiric touch mostly), spell blending and quickened magic.
-wizard spells for spell blending and later on greater spell access. i think i want to take heroism around level 9, seems a good spell for a magus. And fluid form (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/fluidForm.html) seems to be awesome for greater acces!

[Kurald Galain]

Personally I prefer the strength magus, although this is a matter of taste.

Try to use spell combat every single round (that's what the magus is for, after all) and use five-foot steps in and out of range to avoid having to cast defensively. When you have nothing better to cast, casting Arcane Mark for an extra attack is a good deal.

At early levels, you should either use cantrips (e.g. Daze) or a wand (e.g. Magic Missile) to avoid running out of spells. At moderate levels, you simply won't run out of spells period.

Instead of Lunge, consider Lunging Spell Touch, which is effectively the same for a magus and can be picked up several levels earlier.

Mirror Image is the best defensive buff at low levels.

In terms of archetypes, don't forget the Hexcrafter (which conveniently stacks with Bladebound). Hexes to look out for include Slumber, Misfortune, and particularly Flight.



-Power attack, yes or no (i'm thinking yes for when i'm done with casting a grab my scimitar two handed)
-which arcanas did you like? the ones that draw my attention are arcane accuracy, empowered and maximized magic (for vampiric touch mostly), spell blending and quickened magic.
-wizard spells for spell blending and later on greater spell access. i think i want to take heroism around level 9, seems a good spell for a magus. And fluid form (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/fluidForm.html) seems to be awesome for greater acces!
You shouldn't take power attack on a magus; you're a partial-BAB class that regularly takes a -2 penalty from spell combat, so having another penalty to hit isn't good.

In terms of arcana, Hasted Assault is excellent. Lingering Pain is a good way to shut down casters. I'm not a fan of arcane accuracy, because using it regularly eats up more pool points than you actually have.

[Raezeman]

Try to use spell combat every single round (that's what the magus is for, after all) and use five-foot steps in and out of range to avoid having to cast defensively. When you have nothing better to cast, casting Arcane Mark for an extra attack is a good deal.


You shouldn't take power attack on a magus; you're a partial-BAB class that regularly takes a -2 penalty from spell combat, so having another penalty to hit isn't good.

i don't know, casting arcane mark for an extra attack seems, finicky to me. Also, i seem to believe that a single more massive attack is generally better than one extra regular attack (with reduced atk bonus). That's why i was thinking power attack, to only use when not spell combatting. This idea does originate from my experience with 3.5 thou, from battles against creatures with damage reduction and comparing the teams two weapon fighter and two handed power attack fighter, so it might not be this case in pathfinder.


Instead of Lunge, consider Lunging Spell Touch, which is effectively the same for a magus and can be picked up several levels earlier.

Same thing, isn't concentration good enough so that the -2 AC for a round would be worth it?



Also: choices of spell blending spells?

[Katana1515]

Ok, more questions for you my friend:

-Power attack, yes or no (i'm thinking yes for when i'm done with casting a grab my scimitar two handed)
-which arcanas did you like? the ones that draw my attention are arcane accuracy, empowered and maximized magic (for vampiric touch mostly), spell blending and quickened magic.
-wizard spells for spell blending and later on greater spell access. i think i want to take heroism around level 9, seems a good spell for a magus. And fluid form (http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advanced/spells/fluidForm.html) seems to be awesome for greater acces!

If you are going the Strength route, I would definitely pick up Power Attack at some point. Its nice to be able to deal solid damage on your attacks that are not Spellstrikes. Nothing is more annoying that missing though, so make sure you are using something like Arcane Accuracy and maybe some to hit boosting spells like Haste and Heroism. I don't generally find myself running out of cheap attack spells though after low levels (level 1 pearls of power are your friend), so you might want to be open to the option of using PA with only one hand on the sword too. Its not as poor an option as it was in 3.5.

As to Arcana, you have already picked up that Arcane Accuracy is pure gold, and makes a good lvl 3 pick. I personally dont rate the "once per day" metamagic arcana, unless your campaign is of the '1 or 2 encounters per day max style' I think you will get more mileage out of other choices. By the respective levels you can get them, buying a lesser metamagic rod is pretty affordable (look into Gloves of Storing (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/e-g/glove-of-storing) once you can afford them.)

Spell Blending is a good standby choice, Accurate Strike is brilliant when you are struggling to hit but is expensive to use so you have to be cautious. At the top end I like the Bane Blade ability, by level 15 you can safely assume being hasted pretty much all the time so you have a fair number of attacks, those extra damage dice and static boosts can really add up.

Heroism is one of my top picks for spell blending (I don't understand why it isn't on the Magus spell list to be honest) the long duration is great, and the boosts to your attacks and damage rolls are appreciated by a Mid BAB class that often doesn't have the best flat damage modifiers. Another interesting choice at the same level is Blacklight (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blacklight) which can be a hilarious spell when you are in dire straits, but check with the party first as it can be quite anti-social to spam it :smallbiggrin:. At lower levels utility spells like See Invisibility can be surprisingly useful. At higher levels, if you have space for the Close Range Arcana, consider Enervation for dealing negative levels no save via spell combat.

On spells that are already on the Magus list, look into Monstrous Physique, unlike beast shape you keep your gear and spellcasting ability, but get some very useful stuff for a strength build. For example, with MP2 you can take the form of a large four armed gargoyle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/gargoyle/four-armed-gargoyle) to gain +4str,+4 nat armour, flight, darkvision and most importantly 4 arms! You can use 2 hands to power attack with, and still spellcombat. :smallcool:

Spell Access comes online SO late, I have never seen it in play (my last game with a magus died at lvl 18 dammit). The spell you linked seems fun, but consider the cost of giving up Contingency for example.

[Kurald Galain]

i don't know, casting arcane mark for an extra attack seems, finicky to me.
Why? It's a touch spell, therefore eligible for spell strike. If it bothers you, be a hexcrafter and do the same thing with the Brand spell (a touch attack for 1 damage).


Also, i seem to believe that a single more massive attack is generally better than one extra regular attack (with reduced atk bonus).
For barbarians and fighters, that is indeed the case: they do one attack for 1d12+1.5 str+(rage or weapon spec)+power attack, yes. However, the magus works differently: your damage bonus either comes from making your weapon flaming/freezing/shocking with arcane pool, or from spells. Rogues don't take power attack either, for largely the same reasons.


Same thing, isn't concentration good enough so that the -2 AC for a round would be worth it?
You don't use LST all the time; you use LST when you can't otherwise reach your enemy with a 5' step. Spell combat + full attack + LST beats single attack + move action, after all.

[Kurald Galain]

If you are going the Strength route, I would definitely pick up Power Attack at some point. Its nice to be able to deal solid damage on your attacks that are not Spellstrikes. Nothing is more annoying that missing though, so make sure you are using something like Arcane Accuracy

That's simply a bad tradeoff. You spend one feat for a penalty to hit, one arcana slot to compensate, and then you run out of pool points if you use it regularly. You can do more damage for other investments, e.g. by spending your feat on Extra Arcana, and two arcana slots on Flamboyant Arcana + Arcane Deed: Precise Strike.

A low-level magus doesn't have the feats (and arcana) to spare; a mid-level magus can afford to always use spellstrike.

For the Magus, Power Attack is a trap. You'll do more damage without it.

[Katana1515]

You can do more damage for other investments, e.g. by spending your feat on Extra Arcana, and two arcana slots on Flamboyant Arcana + Arcane Deed: Precise Strike.[/b]

Honestly, I hadn't seen Arcane Deed before (totally unfamiliar with the new swashbuckler as the concept never appealed). It limits the range of weapons you can use, but is definitely a better trade off than power attack. I will remember that for the next time I sit down to build a magus.