Sorcerers learning non-Sor/Wiz Spells?

[TheBrassDuke]

"(snip) ...If you go through the Core (3.5 PHB) spellcasters, they all have essentially the same [statement] for the first sentence under their spellcasting section; it swaps out a few words (Arcane/Divine, class name, spell list), and there's some conditionals for the two classes that don't have spell casting from level 1), but it's essentially the same sentence:

Bard: "A bard casts arcane spells, which are drawn from the bard spell list."

Cleric: "A cleric casts divine spells, which are drawn from the cleric spell list. "

Druid: "A druid casts divine spells, which are drawn from the druid spell list. "

Wizard: "A wizard casts arcane spells which are drawn from the sorcerer/ wizard spell list. "

Paladin: "Beginning at 4th level, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the paladin spell list"

Ranger: "Beginning at 4th level, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list."

The Sorcerer, though, has extra conditionals: "A sorcerer casts arcane spells which are drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. " (Emphasisadded).

Of the core base casters, the Sorcerer is the only one who, right on the first sentence of the spellcasting segment, uses a conditional modifier that implies exceptions. A little later, it even adds (none of the other Core casters get an analog to the second half of this sentence): "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study."

If you pick up the PHB, go to the magic overview, and start pulling out where it specifies how characters learn spells, there's also an interesting exception. For the Wizard, it's level up, copying from scrolls/spellbooks, or independent research (pointing to the DMG). For Divine spells, it's level up or independent research (pointing to the DMG). For Sorcerers and Bards, though, independent research isn't listed - new spells are learned on level up only, and it adds the sentence "With the DM's permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of (see Spells in the sorcerer description, page 54)." It then follows it up with an example, that lists "or he might have learned an unusual spell from an arcane scroll or spellbook." (both quotes from the 3.5 PHB, page 179).

For everyone except the Sorcerer, their Spells section has them casting from the class list. With the Sorcerer, it's "primarily" from the class list. For learning new spells, for the Wizard and all Divine classes, it's the automatic spells from level up, spell research (pointing to the DMG), or (in the case of the Wizard) copied spells. For the Sorcerer and Bard, spell research is not listed, but it is noted that they can get other spells.

That's not what most people expect to see, though, so when it's seen, it's usually assumed that the "Primarily" in the Sorcerer spell section refers to spell research (despite the fact that no other Core base class uses that word, but they can all do spell research, and spell research isn't listed as an option under the methods for gaining spells for the Sorcerer in the Magic section). There's no listed mechanics for it, but the Core Sorcerer isn't restricted to the Sor/Wiz list, and does not need to use spell research to get outside of it."

So I read this and thought, "well I haven't seen WotC come out and say otherwise~~"...

Okay, so if Jack's logic is right, your little Sorcerer could very well be calling lightning as a Druid might, cure wounds like a cleric...and sing others to death with spells exclusive to the Bard. Right?

Now as a DM of seven years, I've never allowed it (primarily because I never thought about it), but have been overthinking it lately. I'm in the process of building a half-Djinni Sorcerer and wondered what it would be like to cast some spells he otherwise couldn't before. I would allow this!

But is it really DM's call, or is it RAW, and we've never really noticed until now the Sorcerer was capable of doing this?

Discuss, because I'm curious!

Oh, and what spells (not on the Sor/Wis list) would you equip your sorcerer with and why, given the chance?

[nedz]

There are a few Sorcerer only spells, which are not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list

Also these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) options exist.

[Brova]

Honestly, barring a few spells that are at lower levels on other lists, there isn't really a lot of value to be gained by voltroning together spells from a bunch of different lists. Simply casting spells which are sweet is usually a better deal than some weird synergy between planar ally, spell engine, and awaken (or whatever). The one thing I've seen done that seemed interesting was a homebrewed class that got half the spells per day, but could just cast any spell (not including spells from truncated lists like the Assassin or Bard).

[TheBrassDuke]

There are a few Sorcerer only spells, which are not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list

Also these (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/spontaneousDivineCasters.htm) options exist.

I'm just saying that, although their Spells Known list is limited, I feel it shouldn't be limited to just (badly) mimicking the Wizard. I like the idea of being able to sling a lightning bolt here and then flame strike over there. I don't know...

There are so many fun options, it reminds me of the original "Magic-User".

Themed sorcerers should have no problem obtaining some interesting spells with this available.

Edit: I use blasty spells as examples because I'm recovering from surgery and have little originality at the moment. 😐 I'm not the blaster/heavy damage-dealing sort.

[Brova]

I'm just saying that, although their Spells Known list is limited, I feel it shouldn't be limited to just (badly) mimicking the Wizard. I like the idea of being able to sling a lightning bolt here and then flame strike over there. I don't know...

There are so many fun options, it reminds me of the original "Magic-User".

Themed sorcerers should have no problem obtaining some interesting spells with this available.

Edit: I use blasty spells as examples because I'm recovering from surgery and have little originality at the moment. 😐 I'm not the blaster/heavy damage-dealing sort.

It's pretty obviously in house rule territory, but getting to pick spells from "wherever" seems like it could be a cool niche for the Sorcerer. For example, you could get greater invisibility when most people just have invisibility.

[TheBrassDuke]

But you see, I don't think it is houserule territory. I think, by RAW, sorcerers are supposed to, if not encouraged, to learn any "unique" spell they encounter.

I level up. I've been studying our priestess and would like to lend her a hand. Why can't I learn Cure Light Wounds? It's a cleric spell, channeling positive energy, right? I'm a sorcerer. I channel raw magic. I watch the cleric do her work daily, I've even felt her magic course through my veins. I've had plenty of time observing the spell and how it works.

So I say, why not?

[Troacctid]

Well, that's not really an unusual or unique spell.

[TheBrassDuke]

Well, that's not really an unusual or unique spell.

Oh, but it is!

To the Sorcerer. ;)

[Troacctid]

You'd have to see what your DM says about that, then.

[TheBrassDuke]

True. I have no doubt any DM may have some reservations about this...but again, it could very well be the creators' intentions. It's vague/not-so-vague. I would allow this completely, but that's because I read it as RAW.

[Grooke]

Like Nedz, I believe that this refers to Sorcerer-only spells (which are therefore not on the sorc/wiz list), such as Wings of Flurry.

[Troacctid]

If it were the designers' intention, they would have just said the sorcerer can learn spells from other lists. I think it's pretty clear they're referring to custom spells.

The thing about custom spells, though, is that some DMs do actually allow them to duplicate effects from other classes' spell lists, so...I mean...that's still a thing that could happen. It's just about as likely as a wizard researching an arcane version of Reincarnate or Psychic Reformation.

[Agincourt]

Like Nedz, I believe that this refers to Sorcerer-only spells (which are therefore not on the sorc/wiz list), such as Wings of Flurry.

I don't think that was the intent. There are no sorcerer-only spells in the Player's Handbook or anywhere in core. Races of the Dragon was released 3 years after 3.5 Core. It would take a level of foresight WotC otherwise kept well hidden for them to anticipate the list of sorcerer-only spells.

[TheBrassDuke]

Like Nedz, I believe that this refers to Sorcerer-only spells (which are therefore not on the sorc/wiz list), such as Wings of Flurry.

No, it was written in Core was before "Sor Only" even came out (in a supplement). I doubt they were referring to it.

Edit: Ninja'd!

And Troa, either way, it's the same thing. So again, why not? Also, if that were the case, they would have specified it too. So I'm not sure you're any more right than I am. But since it is written saying "primarily", I think that's referring to a slew of options. Humor the idea! :)

What spells would appeal to your sorcerers?

[Sgt. Cookie]

*raises hand*

It should be first stated that I'm an advocate for "sorcerers can learn whatever spells they damn well please", so I may come off as a little biased.

But I feel it's worth mentioning that True Dragons, widely reputed to be the origin of Sorcerers in 3.5, all cast as Sorcerers, but some of them explicitly get access to non-sorcerer spells.

Blue Dragons, Red Dragons, Brass Dragons, Bronze Dragons, Copper Dragons, Gold Dragons, Silver Dragons, they're ALL explicitly stated to be able to cast Cleric spells, along side some spells from Domains. And the biggest part is, they're all explicitly cast as Arcane Spells.

So, with that seems to be pretty strong evidence that, yes, Sorcerers can learn whatever spells they want to.

[Doc_Maynot]

I'd also like to note that it also applies to bards.


Adding Spells to a Sorcerer’s or Bard’s Repertoire
A sorcerer or bard gains spells each time he attains a new level in his class and never gains spells any other way. When your sorcerer or bard gains a new level, consult Table: The Bard or Table: Sorcerer Spells Known to learn how many spells from the appropriate spell list he now knows. With permission, sorcerers and bards can also select the spells they gain from new and unusual spells that they have gained some understanding of.

I have many times seen that argued against the way the OP is describing, instead as a way for sorcs and bards to gain custom spells as wizards can research. I personally do use the line as TheBrassDuke is describing though.

[Jack_Simth]

Oh, hey! I remember writing that.

But is it really DM's call, or is it RAW, and we've never really noticed until now the Sorcerer was capable of doing this?
It's both.

It's RAW because it's quite clearly laid out that the Sorcerer can pick up spells not on the Sorcerer list.
It's DM call because a lot of fuzzy terms are used - "primarily" and "some understanding", most notably - that don't have the crunchy bits to go with.

Under one DM, it'll require full-on spell research, as the Wizard, Cleric, Druid, et cetera, and then taking the spell at the next level up, and you can only have one or two.
Under another, you're free to just pick up random spells on level up after you successfully present the argument with no real limits.

Sort of like how the line in Rope Trick is handled. It's hazardous to bring one extra dimensional space into another, as noted under Rope Trick. But other than the specific interaction between a portable hole and a bag of holding, no results are defined. Under one DM, going into a Rope Trick with either a portable hole or a bag of holding is essentially suicide. Another will ignore the clause entirely.


Oh, and what spells (not on the Sor/Wis list) would you equip your sorcerer with and why, given the chance?
Really, though, other than a few spells that are levelled differently for other classes, it doesn't make much difference in the 'expected' party. In the 'expected' party, there's going to be a competent band-aid box (usually a cleric) with all the important fix-it spells, there's going to be a skill-monkey (usually a rogue) with all the skills, and there's going to be a tinderbox (usually a wizard, but also potentially a Sorcerer) with the blasty spells.

Or at least, that seems to be WotC expectations.

However, if you do have the Cleric in the party... there's not really much point in picking up the Cleric spells. If you've got a Druid in the party, there's not really much point in picking up the Druid spells. And so on.

While there are a couple of cross-list gems (such as the Bard's Glibness), and some that are sufficiently worthwhile that having two people to cast it is not a bad thing (I'm looking at you, Entangle), for the most part it's only worthwhile to pick up a small number of off-list spells for the simple reason that the Sor/Wiz list is the strongest spell list anyway.

There's certain niche setups where the feature is particularly useful (like, say, if you only have one caster in the party for some bizarre reason), but other than a handful of cross-list gems, it's largely pointless.


Edit:
Oh yes, and just to muddy things up, Pathfinder kept the wording.

[TheBrassDuke]

Wu Jen spells, too. 😏

Giant Size; Transcend Mortality, anyone?

I don't know, I think there's a benefit for any Cleric, Druid or Bard spell added to my known list...it all depends on how you use it. Even if you've got a better first-aid Kit, tinderbox or skillmonkey with you. ;)

Edit: And Jack, thanks for pointing that out! I haven't played Pathfinder. So hm...

I'm given to think we're all right. Custom -and- other lists' spells are allowed...but as it's written, a DM couldn't really argue too much unless s/he had a special agenda against it.

It isn't really making the sorcerer any better, save for giving it a little improvement.

[atemu1234]

This was apparently a bit of text that was leftover from early drafts during playtesting. There was a mention in Dragon Magazine.

[TheBrassDuke]

Elaborate?

[Jack_Simth]

Hmm, that's interesting.

I've got a copy of the 3.0 PHB. In it, Sorcerers were explicitly allowed off-class spells. However, the "primarily" line wasn't present.

So they yanked some info from one spot, then added the same stuff back in another... and the two spots were just a few sentences apart.

[TheBrassDuke]

What does it specifically say?

[Agincourt]

What spells would appeal to your sorcerers?

Moon Bolt is one I've wanted my sorcerers to take. (It seems like the kind of spell that should be on the sor/wiz list.) My sorcerers generally have more metamagic feats than my clerics. Dropping 5d4 strength damage, empowered or maximized, would be a good way to incapacitate many foes.

Slime Wave is quite potent.

Miracle, naturally.

Surge of Fortune allows the character to choose to end the spell early as an immediate action. The next roll time you roll a d20, it is counted as a natural 20. That would come in handy.

[Ellowryn]

And i quote: These spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer and wizard spell list (page 168), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for achieving a new level, provided the spell is the right level.

Although, it does say unusual sorcerer/wizard spell, not just any spell. SO maybe they didn't want you grabbing divine spells?

[atemu1234]

What does it specifically say?

I'll try and look into it, but that involves going through old issues of Dragon Magazine- something I don't like doing.

[Pippin]

And i quote: These spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer and wizard spell list (page 168), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for achieving a new level, provided the spell is the right level.

Although, it does say unusual sorcerer/wizard spell, not just any spell. SO maybe they didn't want you grabbing divine spells?
If that's what's in PHB 3.0, to me there's little doubt that Sorcerers can't learn non-Sorcerer spells then. By RAI at least :smallsigh:

[lsfreak]

It is RAW, to the same extent that non-standard magic items are RAW. There is precedence for them existing, but it's also entirely left up to the DM to adjudicate, so it's not really something that can be talked about in general terms the same way other facets of optimization are.

[Telonius]

My take on it: Wizards learn magic, Sorcerers are magic. I'd absolutely allow a Sorcerer to learn a spell from another list, especially if it fits the character theme. If you're a Sorcerer that loves flinging around Lightning Bolts, and you want to learn Call Lightning Storm? Sure! Playing up the "Dragon blood" angle, and want some spells from the Cleric list? Go nuts!

Allowing that sort of thing would go a long way toward making Sorcerer mechanically distinct from Wizard. It's not just a straight-off trade between versatility of a Spellbook, versus number of spells per day.

[atemu1234]

Update: Still putting off digging through my 3e/3.5e Dragon Magazine collection. Possibly waiting for a please, also possibly just lazy.

[Milo v3]

It definitely cannot be referring to the fact there are sorcerer only spells, because wizards have wizard only spells in Core and it lacks that section of text.

[nedz]

And i quote: These spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer and wizard spell list (page 168), or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of by study. For example, a sorcerer with a scroll or spellbook detailing an unusual sorcerer/wizard spell (one not on the wizard/sorcerer spell list in this book) could select that spell as one of his new spells for achieving a new level, provided the spell is the right level.

Although, it does say unusual sorcerer/wizard spell, not just any spell. SO maybe they didn't want you grabbing divine spells?

Ah, so it's meant to be an opening for Sorcerer spell research perhaps ?

[Evan Epis]

Supposing a DM gives the Sorcerer access to all spell lists through this "study of unusual/unique spells", where that would put him? Low T1?

[Milo v3]

Supposing a DM gives the Sorcerer access to all spell lists through this "study of unusual/unique spells", where that would put him? Low T1?

Still tier 2. Since they still can't change their spells known at all.

[Evan Epis]

Still tier 2. Since they still can't change their spells known at all.

Can they make up for it if you use Adept, Paladin etc and PrC spell lists to get some spells at a lower spell level?

[Xuldarinar]

I think it is worth noting this wording does span multiple editions, and even enters pathfinder. All classes with spellcasting (though there certainly will be more spellcasting classes released), and a snippet from their casting entry, to make a point.

Adept: An adept casts divine spells, which are drawn from the adept spell list-
Antipaladin: -, an antipaladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the antipaladin spell list-
Arcanist: An arcanist casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list-
Bard: A bard casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list-
Bloodrager: -a bloodrager gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells drawn from the bloodrager spell list-
Cleric: A cleric casts divine spell which are drawn from the cleric spell list-
Druid: A druid casts divine spells which are drawn from the druid spell list-
Hunter: A hunter casts divine spells drawn from the druid and ranger spell lists-
Inquisitor: An inquisitor casts divine spells drawn from the inquisitor spell list-
Magus: A magus casts arcane spells drawn from the magus spell list-
Oracle: An oracle casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell lists-
Paladin: -, a paladin gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells which are drawn from the paladin spell list-
Ranger: -, a ranger gains the ability to cast a small number of divine spells, which are drawn from the ranger spell list-
Shaman: -,a shaman casts divine spells drawn from the shaman spell list-
Skald: -, a skald casts arcane spells drawn from the bard spell list-
Sorcerer: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list-
Summoner: A summoner casts arcane spells drawn from the summoner spell list-
Warpriest: A warpriest casts divine spells drawn from the cleric spell list-
Witch: A witch casts arcane spells drawn from the witch spell list.
Wizard: A wizard casts arcane spells drawn from the sorcerer/wizard spell list-

They are all very consistent, but that sorcerer entry. The word "primarily" stands out, a unique element to the sorcerer. We cannot chalk it up to sorcerer only spells, or to bloodline spells, or anything really other than the possibility they may learn non-sorcerer spells. And under pathfinder it does go on to say: "These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study."

I find this interesting, a point people have overlooked previously. An intentional component for the sorcerer, and the sorcerer alone, to dabble in things unavailable to other spellcasters who draw from the same list. Though, there in lies a question, how far could this go?

[nedz]

I find this interesting, a point people have overlooked previously. An intentional component for the sorcerer, and the sorcerer alone, to dabble in things unavailable to other spellcasters who draw from the same list. Though, there in lies a question, how far could this go?

No — it's a well known point. The trouble is we don't know the intention so it can mean anything your DM wants it to mean.

[Xuldarinar]

No — it's a well known point. The trouble is we don't know the intention so it can mean anything your DM wants it to mean.

Its a point I hadn't notice previously, nor noticed other discussing, so pardon my wording. I do think it should be something elaborated upon by some official source. If it has, then.. fantastic.

Does primarily mean at least half their spells known need to be drawn from the sor/wiz list?
Does primarily mean that sorcerers tend to draw from that list but there isn't a strict requirement?
Does primarily mean they -can- choose from other lists with DM permission? Which.. is something that could be said for any class.


What about the extent?

Can they learn spells normally belonging to other arcane spellcasting classes?
Can they learn cleric or druid spells?
What about psionic powers/mysteries/ect. as spells?

[TheBrassDuke]

Update: Still putting off digging through my 3e/3.5e Dragon Magazine collection. Possibly waiting for a please, also possibly just lazy.

Well, I must be very rude then! ._. Imsosorry!

Ahem.

Please. :)


Ah, so it's meant to be an opening for Sorcerer spell research perhaps ?

No. There's specifically that part where others get spell research but the sorcerer does not. Clearly, I believe the interpretation of "primarily" stands that they are quite capable of producing spells from other lists. ._. It's exciting, if nothing else.

[Segev]

It's a case where the RAW explicitly calls out "ask your DM if you want to go outside this bound."

Essentially, yes, the DM has to make the call. But the RAW are saying "this isn't rule zero." They're agreeing that the DM should consider it. Whether a given sorcerer can learn a given spell is a house rule in the sense that it will be up to the DM and thus will vary from house to house, but it's not a "house rule" in the sense that it's leaning on rule zero to "fix" or "change" something in the RAW. It's one of the few areas where D&D 3e actually leaned in the "rules light" direction of DM judgment calls.

From a PO standpoint, it means that DMs are encouraged to consider both RP plotlines ("My sorcerer's spent a lot of time with these druids; can he learn that goodberry spell they're using all the time?") and one of the supposedly-intended (but not well-supported in fluff) uses of the sorcerer chassis: theme casters. That is, I'm given to understand that sorcerers were at some point intended to be the go-to class for building "ice mages" and "fire mages" and "shapeshifters" and "enchantresses." Yes, "Enchanter" is a wizard specialization, but the "casts entirely within theme, without necessarily regard to school" class was to be the sorcerer. In that light, a sorcerer with a particular theme might be expected to draw from other lists to keep that theme. A "storm mage" sorcerer might pick up call lightning; a "fire mage" might like flame strike; an "earth mage" might pick up earthquake. A "friend to his summons" summoner might pick the planar ally line rather than the planar binding line.


From a TO standpoint, it means that our RAW-based discussions can still include some theorizing centered around whether a sorcerer is building towards and within a theme that is appropriate to allow a given spell. It gives us, as theoreticians, a little more leeway to say "it seems reasonable that a DM might allow..." rather than having to say "that's pure house rule territory." If nothing else, it makes it arguably legal in Iron Chef and Zinc Saucier competitions to cherry pick appropriate spells for the theme being built towards without having an automatic red flag called on an illegal spell choice. (i.e. points might be docked - and heavily - for an abuse of this permission, but if it "feels right" to the judge he doesn't have to dock points for technically cheating.)


From a further PO standpoint, when giving build advice, it is a hook on which we can hang a hat for suggesting, "ask your DM if your sorcerer can take XYZ spell, because it seems perfect for what you're going for with this theme and the RAW do say sorcerers can learn unusual spells and that their spells are only drawn 'primarily' from the sor/wiz list."

[TheBrassDuke]

It's a case where the RAW explicitly calls out "ask your DM if you want to go outside this bound."

Essentially, yes, the DM has to make the call. But the RAW are saying "this isn't rule zero." They're agreeing that the DM should consider it. Whether a given sorcerer can learn a given spell is a house rule in the sense that it will be up to the DM and thus will vary from house to house, but it's not a "house rule" in the sense that it's leaning on rule zero to "fix" or "change" something in the RAW. It's one of the few areas where D&D 3e actually leaned in the "rules light" direction of DM judgment calls.

From a PO standpoint, it means that DMs are encouraged to consider both RP plotlines ("My sorcerer's spent a lot of time with these druids; can he learn that goodberry spell they're using all the time?") and one of the supposedly-intended (but not well-supported in fluff) uses of the sorcerer chassis: theme casters. That is, I'm given to understand that sorcerers were at some point intended to be the go-to class for building "ice mages" and "fire mages" and "shapeshifters" and "enchantresses." Yes, "Enchanter" is a wizard specialization, but the "casts entirely within theme, without necessarily regard to school" class was to be the sorcerer. In that light, a sorcerer with a particular theme might be expected to draw from other lists to keep that theme. A "storm mage" sorcerer might pick up call lightning; a "fire mage" might like flame strike; an "earth mage" might pick up earthquake. A "friend to his summons" summoner might pick the planar ally line rather than the planar binding line.


From a TO standpoint, it means that our RAW-based discussions can still include some theorizing centered around whether a sorcerer is building towards and within a theme that is appropriate to allow a given spell. It gives us, as theoreticians, a little more leeway to say "it seems reasonable that a DM might allow..." rather than having to say "that's pure house rule territory." If nothing else, it makes it arguably legal in Iron Chef and Zinc Saucier competitions to cherry pick appropriate spells for the theme being built towards without having an automatic red flag called on an illegal spell choice. (i.e. points might be docked - and heavily - for an abuse of this permission, but if it "feels right" to the judge he doesn't have to dock points for technically cheating.)


From a further PO standpoint, when giving build advice, it is a hook on which we can hang a hat for suggesting, "ask your DM if your sorcerer can take XYZ spell, because it seems perfect for what you're going for with this theme and the RAW do say sorcerers can learn unusual spells and that their spells are only drawn 'primarily' from the sor/wiz list."

Sorry to completely quote you, but it should be read twice. Very nice job!

Did I start something here? Could this be potentially thrown into the competitions as "possible"? (You'd have to credit Jack, really, but wow!)

Again, I honestly feel that, since it's right there saying "primarily", plus the other jargon that's in the corner being suspiciously vague, means our sorcerers are going to be just fine adjusting to the new spells! I agree a DM should make the final decision (just so the place doesn't reek of cheese), but I don't think they should ever say no for anything other a good reason.

I can see them saying no to Miracle, and some other amazingly cheesy spells combined with arcane magic, but really. I just want to cure you and then throw you in black tentacles! And then cure you again. :P

Edit: Moonbolt is pretty sweet, by the way.

For my Half-Djinni sorcerer, I believe at least a Cure spell might be required (both for fluff reasons and the fact it doesn't hurt to have an extra pair of healing hands!); a Djinn the way I play them--they are helpful to those who aren't using them. Since I altered the Half-Fey template and mix-and-matched SLAs I came up with a "genie" theme. Spells fit that role, too. Being hospitable begs for at least one cure spell. Maybe even Awaken? (A little unsure about that one, what with Genie rules in general...) Animate Objects? That's not even a wizard spell!

Beauty and the Beast:

An Enchantress (probably a Conjurer or Transmuter in D&D terms?) places a polymorph on the prince and transforms the household into animated objects. Polymorph Any Object? -_-

I'm recovering from surgery, so I may not make sense.

Merlin from Sword in the Stone! He made the objects come alive and clean his crappy cottage! He's no cleric. ._. Sorcerer, then?

I want Animate Objects. I think that's what I'm trying to say.

[Jack_Simth]

Does primarily mean at least half their spells known need to be drawn from the sor/wiz list?
Does primarily mean that sorcerers tend to draw from that list but there isn't a strict requirement?
Does primarily mean they -can- choose from other lists with DM permission? Which.. is something that could be said for any class.


What about the extent?

Can they learn spells normally belonging to other arcane spellcasting classes?
Can they learn cleric or druid spells?
What about psionic powers/mysteries/ect. as spells?All of these questions have the same answer:
"Specified nowhere in RAW, which means ask the DM." Any answers you get to these questions apply to the answering DM only - which, among other things, means that the optimization crowd looks for a much better defined route when they want to add some specific spell to their class list - so while this feature of the Sorcerer gets occasional note by individuals, it gets little to no discussion. Is it RAW that the Sorcerer can learn off-class spells? Sure. But it's also RAW that there's a limit of some form... which is never listed. It's a hole in the rules. There's a lot of them. That's one of the things DMs are for.

[Endarire]

First, I think this is a kewl find.

Second, I was tired of disliking Sorcerers who seem like they were specifically made to be in the Wizards' shadows. Thus, I devised the Fun, Powerful Sorcerer (https://drive.google.com/open?id=1Qtn0MDtFABUY9upKwTZlzd9SOeNPF7DHfzv4DsAma NQ&authuser=0) homebrew alternative.

[TheBrassDuke]

From all the other lists out there, what would you give your sorcerer? Doesn't necessarily have to go with a theme, but nothing cheesy.

I'm interested!

Entangle would be cool, and I've already mentioned Animate Objects and Call Lightning...

There's a plethora of great spells to spice up your sorcerers!

[Warrnan]

I'm glad to someone found this and brought it to my attention. This will make covering interesting fictional characters with strange powers much easier. Kind of like a spontaneous arcane version of archivist.

[yellowrocket]

One of my kids really wants to play a wizard but i don't want to have to work with her every adventitious day to make sure she prepares spells. This gives her only one list to keep track of not two. She's 8 so it's not like she's going to be trying to break the game either way. Then again she is the card shark. . .

[TheBrassDuke]

I'm glad to someone found this and brought it to my attention. This will make covering interesting fictional characters with strange powers much easier. Kind of like a spontaneous arcane version of archivist.

Sorcerers are so much cooler now.


One of my kids really wants to play a wizard but i don't want to have to work with her every adventitious day to make sure she prepares spells. This gives her only one list to keep track of not two. She's 8 so it's not like she's going to be trying to break the game either way. Then again she is the card shark. . .

Fantastic!

[Jormengand]

From all the other lists out there, what would you give your sorcerer? Doesn't necessarily have to go with a theme, but nothing cheesy.

Guidance of the Avatar.

[TheBrassDuke]

Guidance of the Avatar.

I'll rephrase:

What spells would you choose [to add] and why?

Interesting choice, though. Let the others know! :)

[Jack_Simth]

I'll rephrase:

What spells would you choose [to add] and why?
+20 to any skill check within the next minute needs explanation?

[TheBrassDuke]

+20 to any skill check within the next minute needs explanation?

I was just too lazy to post the spell's explanation here after looking it up myself. :P

[nedz]

Guidance of the Avatar.

If you are going for that one then you ought to grab Divine Insight as well, given that they stack.

Which spells you would choose depends upon the character you are building. Whilst the above two are good for skill monkeys a face type would add Glibness as well. On the other hand a Gish type character might chose one, or more, of the Cleric combat buffs as well as Bless Weapon.

[TheBrassDuke]

Transcend Mortality...because if I want to be a Sandshaper but originally a Sorcerer? I'll be able to use Desert Shroud when I become nothing but dust...after I've cast Giant Size.

Or something just as fun.