As a DM, how do you not kill PC's

[NevinPL]

Explanation
If I, as a DM, go "full throttle", the PC's "drop like flies", and I'm not talking "rock fall, everyone dies", or some "double cheese optimization", nor metagame knowledge. As a DM you simply know more, have more options, and since it's the PC's that are "in the spotlight", slipping a rust monster or ten, followed by a bunch of local thugs armed with Greatclubs, while they sleep, by some BBG that they defeated, but got away 9 months ago, is easy as lying
And if that BBG is BBEG, it's even more easy\"killy".

I think this is not just my problem, since encounter level table in DMG is nerfed - an encounter with a "clone" of PC's party, is higher than the PC's party level.

[noob]

The trick is to make them infinitely paranoiac like for example convince one player to kill the others while they are sleeping and make that in the tavern they visit they get poison in their drink because the barman was paid by someone wanting the adventurers death try to make them understand that sleeping will result in their death and that nobody must know where they are and also that they should never open a door nor enter a dungeon and that they should always watch out the sky so that they does not receive orbital bombardment by nets full of small spikeballs and also to always carry a giant steel shield able to cover all the team and also that they must always have a flying spell and not use the ground if they understand everything is dangerous they will take appropriate measures like always sleep in a mordenkainen manor or in a deep underground house without access tunnel ,always have a poison protection spell, always dig the walls instead of using doors, always use impenetrable spirit and so on.
The other way is making an adventure without monsters nor opponents nor environmental dangers I did one but it only lasted three or four hours

[Extra Anchovies]

Explanation
If I, as a DM, go "full throttle", the PC's "drop like flies", and I'm not talking "rock fall, everyone dies", or some "double cheese optimization", nor metagame knowledge. As a DM you simply know more, have more options, and since it's the PC's that are "in the spotlight", slipping a rust monster or ten, followed by a bunch of local thugs armed with Greatclubs, while they sleep, by some BBG that they defeated, but got away 9 months ago, is easy as lying
And if that BBG is BBEG, it's even more easy\"killy".

I think this is not just my problem, since encounter level table in DMG is nerfed - an encounter with a "clone" of PC's party, is higher than the PC's party level.

I'm sorry, I don't know what your problem is here. "slipping a rust monster or ten, followed by a bunch of local thugs armed with Greatclubs, while they sleep" is functionally identical to "rocks fall, everyone dies". It might be the most sensible option from the BBEG's perspective to scry-and-fry the PCs, but doing that doesn't contribute to a good story and isn't any fun. It's the sort of thing that gets players to walk.

A GM can kill any and all of the PCs at any time. The things that keep them from doing so are maturity and a desire to tell an interesting story.


The trick is to make them infinitely paranoiac like for example convince one player to kill the others while they are sleeping and make that in the tavern they visit they get poison in their drink because the barman was paid by someone wanting the adventurers death try to make them understand that sleeping will result in their death and that nobody must know where they are and also that they should never open a door nor enter a dungeon and that they should always watch out the sky so that they does not receive orbital bombardment by nets full of small spikeballs and also to always carry a giant steel shield able to cover all the team and also that they must always have a flying spell and not use the ground if they understand everything is dangerous they will take appropriate measures like always sleep in a mordenkainen manor or in a deep underground house without access tunnel ,always have a poison protection spell, always dig the walls instead of using doors, always use impenetrable spirit and so on.

Do not do this. Ever. This is a terrible idea. This will get people to stop liking you. I hope that "noob" was joking when he wrote this.

[Ken Murikumo]

I have this problem when making NPCs for the party to fight. I think, oh last week they trounced that squad of anti-paladins, so ill make it just a bit harder. Then it becomes almost impossible for them to win.

Last week it was a grippli scout archer with brachiation (5), a relatively standard orc barbarian, just dps and DR (5), and a sylph sorcerer with save or suck spells and sound lance as a last resort (6).

the party is level 6:
halfling zen archer (PF monk-archetype)
duerguar(?) dungeon-crasher
and a lolth touched gun slinger
all of which were allowed two free levels of a prestige class they dont yet qualify for or a +2 LA write-off for races or templates

they had collectively less than 10 hp left...

[OldTrees1]

Mechanically:
I use encounters with Encounter Levels(CRs for encounters) between ECL-1 and ECL+3. I use the same optimization level as my players and I remember to factor things like surprise and favorable terrain into my Encounter Level estimates.

PS: You ought to expect a TPK 50% of the time if you are using a clone of the party. That is why it is an EL = ECL+4 encounter.

Storywise:
I don't use a BBEG more than 3 levels ahead of the PCs unless they have a reason not to seriously try to exterminate the PCs. Possible reasons are inability(Elder Evils can't act yet but the PCs can grow stronger fighting the growing incursion) or lack of desire(Why slay a pawn? Makes even less sense if it is your pawn).

Metagame:
A flat out defeat is less likely to be a TPK if the party is defeated without dying. Recently my group had some bad fort saves vs a pack of ghouls. Since they were defeated by the paralysis rather than damage they were captured not TPK'd.

[Flickerdart]

I think this is not just my problem, since encounter level table in DMG is nerfed - an encounter with a "clone" of PC's party, is higher than the PC's party level.
No, it isn't - a single character is CR = level, and two doublings mean that a four-man party is CR+4. Incidentally, this is exactly the sort of encounter that's supposed to consume all of a party's resources for the day, and has a roughly even risk of defeat. So a party is equal to itself.

As for not killing PCs, here are my personal guidelines:

Avoid the single boss encounter. Anything powerful enough to avoid dying to action economy disadvantage will have no trouble killing the PCs one by one. There is a sweet spot but it's hard to find.
Avoid the "many weenies" encounter. Either they are too weak and useless, or they are strong enough to take the PCs down with crits and focused fire. Again, there is a sweet spot, but it's difficult to get right.
Account for circumstances. If the party's gear got eaten by rust monsters, they no longer possess all the power that characters of their level should have, and you should use lower-CR encounters. If the party is caught while sleeping, they don't have full use of their level-appropriate equipment, and it's the same situation. Terrain advantage contributes to CR, as well.
Don't try to game CR. Using things like unassociated levels or templates, it's trivial to make monsters that wipe the party while being "CR-appropriate."
Give your PCs opportunities to use their skills. Ask them how they set up their campsite so the guy with Survival can put up alarms. Ask for Spot and Listen checks when the assassins come in the night. Ask for Knowledge checks so the PCs can know about the monster's strengths and weaknesses (which is what the CR assumes).
Be aware of what your PCs can actually deal with. If they have no magic weapons, sending a shadow at them means death. If they cannot heal, nilbogs will destroy them, and so on.

[noob]

"Do not do this. Ever. This is a terrible idea. This will get people to stop liking you. I hope that "noob" was joking when he wrote this. "
It was a joke about the fact that I had a team so paranoiac that the gm started making more an more things dangerous because we were seeing the potential of danger everywhere and so it ended up making him trap more and more his buildings with wails of banshee on all doors and so on justifying our intense paranoia but thanks to it we never had any team wipe.
(even if often we have crazy encounters like 7 magi and three warriors having only two level less than our four players lvl 18 team of two magi one priest and one barbarian and that also magi liked to focus fire on one target we lost only one magi and it was not me because I used a prismatic sphere for dividing the battlefield in two thanks to a narrow corridor)

[Grod_The_Giant]

It's simple: you use level-appropriate (or easier) encounters ~90% of the time, and have relatively clear escape routes for the other ~10%. You're allowed to say "well, the BBEG wouldn't be happy that the PCs messed with his plan," but the follow-up is "so he sends some servants at around the same power-level," not "scry and die." Is it stupid? Perhaps. But remember that your NPCs don't know everything you do, and aren't required to act "optimally" even if they do.

[Flickerdart]

It's simple: you use level-appropriate (or easier) encounters ~90% of the time, and have relatively clear escape routes for the other ~10%. You're allowed to say "well, the BBEG wouldn't be happy that the PCs messed with his plan," but the follow-up is "so he sends some servants at around the same power-level," not "scry and die." Is it stupid? Perhaps. But remember that your NPCs don't know everything you do, and aren't required to act "optimally" even if they do.
Anybody who thinks the BBEG will come after the PCs himself has never been in charge of anything. The BBEG has a ton of things on his plate and delegating to underlings is how everything in the history of ever has been accomplished.

[OldTrees1]

Anybody who thinks the BBEG will come after the PCs himself has never been in charge of anything. The BBEG has a ton of things on his plate and delegating to underlings is how everything in the history of ever has been accomplished.

True.
But long enough lived BBEGs(like ones that last long enough for the PCs to level up 5 times) seem downright foolish for not sending in their lieutenants first. What are some fluff suggestions for preventing things like Sauron sending the RingWraiths to slay Frodo in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?

[ComaVision]

True.
But long enough lived BBEGs(like ones that last long enough for the PCs to level up 5 times) seem downright foolish for not sending in their lieutenants first. What are some fluff suggestions for preventing things like Sauron sending the RingWraiths to slay Frodo in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?

Just have them meet a hooded DMPC in the bar first.

[Karl Aegis]

"Do not do this. Ever. This is a terrible idea. This will get people to stop liking you. I hope that "noob" was joking when he wrote this. "
It was a joke about the fact that I had a team so paranoiac that the gm started making more an more things dangerous because we were seeing the potential of danger everywhere and so it ended up making him trap more and more his buildings with wails of banshee on all doors and so on justifying our intense paranoia but thanks to it we never had any team wipe.
(even if often we have crazy encounters like 7 magi and three warriors having only two level less than our four players lvl 18 team of two magi one priest and one barbarian and that also magi liked to focus fire on one target we lost only one magi and it was not me because I used a prismatic sphere for dividing the battlefield in two thanks to a narrow corridor)

You are using paranoia wrong. That word does not mean what you think it means.

[noob]

You think that someone refusing any food or drink because he fear them to be poisoned and who does not wants you to be too much near because they fear to be attacked and who try to see if you are lying and who will not thrust you and who does not wants to sleep in your house even if you knew them for years would be considered sane?
(This is approximately what my team does(well their characters not them in real life if you made that messed interpretation))

[Threadnaught]

Design encounters to challenge players.

Not designing encounters to kill their characters.


It's rather simple.

[ComaVision]

You think that someone refusing any food or drink because he fear them to be poisoned and who does not wants you to be too much near because they fear to be attacked and who try to see if you are lying and who will not thrust you and who does not wants to sleep in your house even if you knew them for years would be considered sane?
(This is approximately what my team does)

Paranoia is irrational fear. If everything actually is out to get you then that's a pretty normal reaction.

[Troacctid]

True.
But long enough lived BBEGs(like ones that last long enough for the PCs to level up 5 times) seem downright foolish for not sending in their lieutenants first. What are some fluff suggestions for preventing things like Sauron sending the RingWraiths to slay Frodo in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?

Well, Sauron did send the ringwraiths to slay Frodo in Fellowship, and Frodo managed to survive. In that story, the characters were keenly aware that the enemy was too strong to fight, so they wisely ran to sanctuary as fast as they could. (In the movie, anyway. In the book they took their sweet time about it.)

PCs rarely have that kind of fear, and are generally more willing to risk a fight with more powerful entities, because what's the worst that's gonna happen? They can always roll a new character.

[nedz]

I often run very challenging encounters and I seem to avoid killing PCs too often. It does happen of course, especially at high level.

Death at -(Con) seems to help, rather than -10, though I'm moving towards -(Con+HD). This creates a wider window between down and dead.

Avoid Rocket tag. Have monsters/NPCs use tactics and terrain rather than one-shot tricks.

Run varied encounters: not everything should be an ambush or a meeting engagement.

Structure your encounters so that you can vary the power. This is important if you are running hard encounters at level 1, less so later. You could have an extra couple of Orcs, or whatever, who either act as reinforcements or decide to slope off.

[Twurps]

True.
But long enough lived BBEGs(like ones that last long enough for the PCs to level up 5 times) seem downright foolish for not sending in their lieutenants first. What are some fluff suggestions for preventing things like Sauron sending the RingWraiths to slay Frodo in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?

As a BBEG, you don't know 'Frodo' is actually the main character in the story. To him, he is one of many. His lieutenants were out doing much more important things (or so the BBEG thought).

Also: information delay. By the time BBEG realizes Frodo has reached lvl3, and becomes dangerous: Frodo has actually already hit lvl5, and easily defeats the 'level 3 killer' BBEG sends. (And thus Frodo levels again:P )

[OldTrees1]

Well, Sauron did send the ringwraiths to slay Frodo in Fellowship, and Frodo managed to survive. In that story, the characters were keenly aware that the enemy was too strong to fight, so they wisely ran to sanctuary as fast as they could. (In the movie, anyway. In the book they took their sweet time about it.)

PCs rarely have that kind of fear, and are generally more willing to risk a fight with more powerful entities, because what's the worst that's gonna happen? They can always roll a new character.

Sauron did not have a reason to delay/be foolish(and thus wasn't). I don't think PCs would have survived in similar circumstances. (Honestly I still don't know why the ringwraiths lost the battle)


As a BBEG, you don't know 'Frodo' is actually the main character in the story. To him, he is one of many. His lieutenants were out doing much more important things (or so the BBEG thought).

Also: information delay. By the time BBEG realizes Frodo has reached lvl3, and becomes dangerous: Frodo has actually already hit lvl5, and easily defeats the 'level 3 killer' BBEG sends. (And thus Frodo levels again:P )

Ooh, Information Delay is a nice tool. This could work even if the BBEG believed in overkill. (BBEG sends a CR 8 to crush the ECL 3 heroes but they happened to be ECL 5 by then).

[VoxRationis]

Information delay is actually really inspired as a justification for under-powered encounters. I'd have to wonder how many times it could believably be pulled off, though. After that happened once or twice, the villain would simply throw the very toughest thing he had in reserve at them.

[SowZ]

The balance Flick talked about is a lot easier to find when the boss fight consists of a Boss a few levels higher than the PCs and a Lt. about as strong as the PCs. A lot of my boss fights end up being Caster+(Animal Companion/Construct.)

Of course, optimization level and player tactics varies. I once had a 10th level Necromancer boss with the skeletal minion ally at level three with no party deaths. Other groups have trouble with CR+1 encounters. It all depends so you need to know the group.

[OldTrees1]

Information delay is actually really inspired as a justification for under-powered encounters. I'd have to wonder how many times it could believably be pulled off, though. After that happened once or twice, the villain would simply throw the very toughest thing he had in reserve at them.

I think it could work precisely twice. The second time the BBEG would use 150% - 200% of their expectation as extra precaution. After that it is all out squish them.

[YossarianLives]

True.
What are some fluff suggestions for preventing things like Sauron sending the RingWraiths to slay Frodo in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?
That's actually pretty much what he did.

[SowZ]

I think it could work precisely twice. The second time the BBEG would use 150% - 200% of their expectation as extra precaution. After that it is all out squish them.

Yeah, I agree with this assessment, twice is a good bet. Hopefully, though, you aren't just using a recurring villain every session. Based on spacing out the BBEG's encounters with the PCs, one near the beginning, one near the middle, and then the final fight of the campaign makes sense. By the third time, hopefully they've leveled enough to be capable.


That's actually pretty much what he did.

It's okay to occasionally have encounters that are meant to be avoided rather than killed.

[OldTrees1]

That's actually pretty much what he did.
Yes it is, and Frodo survived by deus ex machina and DMPCs. It would not work like that in a D&D campaign. So throwing the ringwraiths is reasonable for Sauron to do but not reasonable for a DM to do so I asked how to bridge that gap/solve that puzzle.

[SowZ]

Yes it is, and Frodo survived by deus ex machina and DMPCs. It would not work like that in a D&D campaign. So throwing the ringwraiths is reasonable for Sauron to do but not reasonable for a DM to do so I asked how to bridge that gap/solve that puzzle.

Make it obvious these guys should be avoided. Have the Bard hear stories. If all else fails, while they approach, a town guard gets in their way and is cut down with narry a thought.

[Troacctid]

Make it obvious these guys should be avoided. Have the Bard hear stories. If all else fails, while they approach, a town guard gets in their way and is cut down with narry a thought.

Don't just cut down the guard without a thought. Any schmuck with a sword can do that, low-level guards have maybe 8 HP. Cut down the guard without a thought, and roll the damage for the attack. On the table. "Okay, so the guard takes 12d8...that's...61 damage! He made the Reflex save, so halve that to 30, and...yep, he is very dead. The monster turns toward you. What do you do?"

[SowZ]

Don't just cut down the guard without a thought. Any schmuck with a sword can do that, low-level guards have maybe 8 HP. Cut down the guard without a thought, and roll the damage for the attack. On the table. "Okay, so the guard takes 12d8...that's...61 damage! He made the Reflex save, so halve that to 30, and...yep, he is very dead. The monster turns toward you. What do you do?"

Sure, something more dramatic to really drive the point home should work.

[Troacctid]

It's not about being dramatic--any adventure is supposed to be dangerous and dramatic, so drama and fanfare doesn't effectively communicate whether the encounter is too dangerous (as opposed to just dangerous enough). If it did, players would never willingly fight a boss, ever. What it's actually about is showcasing their combat statistics before dropping the PCs into a real combat with them, so they know what they're getting into.

[SwordChucks]

How do I "not kill PC's"? I'm sorry you've lost me.

More seriously it might be better to help your players learn basic tactics for d&d (flanking buddies, not scouting too far out from the party, who to buff and with what). Are they new players or set in their ways?

You might also take a page from the Legend of Zelda games and give the players loot that would be useful soon. A +x wooden great club before the rust monster encounter might make them think about uses for "useless" equipment.

[Venger]

What are some fluff suggestions for preventing things like Sauron sending the RingWraiths to slay Frodo in the beginning of the Lord of the Rings?
isn't your boss sending crappy minions to start and gradually working your way up the food chain what you want? they got defeated by a torch. it was only after more grinding/endless walking that they got up to somewhat more competent enemies, like trolls or spiders who actually posed a threat.

but the trend of advice in this thread is basically the same: play your bad guy dumb.

the way you play the game as a player, using your most powerful stuff as early and often as possible to crush your enemies, see them driven before you, and hear the lamentations of their women.

as extra anchovies said, using smart tactics like scry and die on your PCs is tantamount to rocks fall, so isn't fun for either you or them, so don't do it.

if that violates suspension of disbelief, like in lotr, then come up with some IC reason why your bad guy isn't acting like a PC. maybe he's not sending his right hand guy after low level PCs because he has more important stuff to do (e.g. is dealing with a high level group of PCs elsewhere and is working his way down the food chain)

if your PCs wonder why your boss doesn't get off his ass and do something, give him something more important to attend do. maybe he's actively pursuing something that requires his attention and doesn't have time to hunt them down himself.


Yes it is, and Frodo survived by deus ex machina and DMPCs. It would not work like that in a D&D campaign. So throwing the ringwraiths is reasonable for Sauron to do but not reasonable for a DM to do so I asked how to bridge that gap/solve that puzzle.

yeah pretty much. sounds just like dm of the rings.

[atemu1234]

Don't let them be morons, their lives are in their own hands.

For your part, keep them against encounters of a reasonable CR.

[ShaneMRoth]

I've never had a TPK.

I've never fudged a roll.

I've never had to.

In most encounters, even in a Free Fire Zone Hack and Slash dungeon environment, there has to be at least a basic motive beyond: Kill the Player Characters. Mindless opponents are the only reliable exception to this.

The party encounters a troll.

The troll starts out the encounter with the goal: I'm hungry. Those guys look edible. I'm going to eat at least one of them.

Roll for initiative.

Now, if the battle goes against the troll, the troll is going to ask himself: How hungry am I?

Fighters are stringy and gamey and need to be tenderized. And there is also the matter of their tough exterior.

Rogues and Clerics tend to be lean and chewy. Sub-prime cuts at best.

Arcane spellcasters tend to be well-marbled prime cuts of meat. But they are also like Fugu (Japanese pufferfish), a delicious delicacy that can kill you if you don't handle it very carefully.

Imagine the troll visits the Free City of Trollhawk and decides while he is there to go to an independently owned and operated McGygax tavern and orders a Quartyr Poundre with Cheese Valyew Meale. As the troll sits down to enjoy his Meale, the Quartyr Poundre takes the toothpick out of its bun and stabs the troll with it. The fries start throwing globs of hot grease at him, and the large soda (Diet Dr Mordenkainen) is clearly trying flank him and stab him in the kidneys with its straw.

Even if the troll is capable of handily defeating the recalcitrant food, he is more likely than not to go find something else to eat. And, he is probably going to find a different tavern.


In the absence of a motive so compelling that it overrides a creature's sense of self-preservation, opponents of player characters will withdraw attempt to withdraw from combat when the tide of battle turns against them.

My general rule of thumb: If the party kills half of the monsters (or if a lone monster is down to half its hit points), and the entire party is still in the fight, then the monsters will decide that the tide of battle has turned against them.

If the monsters can get away, they will. They will fight defensively. They will take withdrawal actions. If it makes any sense, they will attempt to negotiate a surrender.

And, this is important, the party gets a full XP award whether they kill all of the monsters or not. A fleeing monster is worth the same XP as a dead monster.

As to the issue of loot. If the monster is a random encounter, then the loot goes with the monster. If the monster is chased out of his lair, then the the Party can claim all the loot left behind. (The monster will find another lair. In a better neighborhood. With better schools. And, perhaps, an Orcbucks.)

A monster with any genre-savvy at all will use an old player character trick and drop loot behind it as it flees from adventurers. A monster might need armor and weapons, but it can probably live without a few gold pieces if that will buy enough time to flee to safety.

Bottom Line: Unless I specifically rule otherwise, the monsters in my campaign are just not that into the player characters.

[Red Fel]

I find that it boils down to two key points, which have been touched on by others in this thread.

First, avoid monsters and spells designed expressly to ruin or kill the PCs (such as rust monsters, disenchanters, etc.), as well as save-or-lose effects. An occasional one here or there is fine; repeated use is just begging the PCs to roll poorly and lose their characters. It's a straightforward test. All you have to do is ask yourself this question: "Can a single bad roll result in a player permanently losing his character?" If the answer is yes, don't use it, or use it extremely sparingly; if the answer is no, play on.

Second, trust the players to fend for themselves. You're not a babysitter. Once you've eliminated those things that might be comfortably at home in Tomb of Horrors, what you're left with is a test of ability, not luck. Basically, if-

https://i.imgflip.com/6qtrr.gif

... yes. Thank you, Ivan. If they die, due to poor choices or a series of poor rolls, let them die.

There is a line, and it's not a fine line either, between straight-up murdering the PCs and coddling them. It's a broad field, and it's easy to land comfortably in the middle.

[lsfreak]

Another option instead of playing bad guys dumb is to keep stories shorter. PCs face bad guys of roughly there level, and if they wander into plots by those far above their level they do get wiped. Instead of a BBEG starting out at level 18, and thus no reason why they can't afford a few thousand gold to send a group of 10th-level adventurers to wipe out the annoying 6th level PC party, have a bad guy that's 7th level dealing with the 4th level party, and then introduce a "B"BEG of 10th level bad guy with the 6th level party, and then an antagonist of 11th level dealing with the 9th level party, etc.

Another option on that front is to divide up the hierarchy more. People have their individual reasons for not reporting things to higher ups when they should (wanting to prove themselves, fear of being seen as incompetent, simply not having authority or even the capability of getting someone above them involved). Or to put another way, you don't involve the President every time a patrol runs into a sniper. You're not coming into conflict with the BBEG, first you have to defeat the cultist in the town or village, which might lead you to other cults but only those involved in that one operation. That then puts you at odds with one branch of the cult's regional authority. Then as more successes happen you start running into other branches, or the same branch in other regions. And so on. You may eventually reach the head of the cult, but maybe the story arc ends after dealing only with the parts the PCs ever ran into. If the BBEG ever does actually find out about the PCs, they'll be wiped because they stepped into something that was way bigger than they anticipated, or maybe the BBEG takes a loss, diverts resources elsewhere, and now knows better how to keep the PCs from interfering with other plans that are happening in the background.

[Venger]

Another option instead of playing bad guys dumb is to keep stories shorter. PCs face bad guys of roughly there level, and if they wander into plots by those far above their level they do get wiped. Instead of a BBEG starting out at level 18, and thus no reason why they can't afford a few thousand gold to send a group of 10th-level adventurers to wipe out the annoying 6th level PC party, have a bad guy that's 7th level dealing with the 4th level party, and then introduce a "B"BEG of 10th level bad guy with the 6th level party, and then an antagonist of 11th level dealing with the 9th level party, etc.

you say "playing bad guys dumb" like it's a bad thing.

by "dumb" I mean "not optimized like a PC." not that you have to have them act like they're villains on the 60s batman how.


Another option on that front is to divide up the hierarchy more. People have their individual reasons for not reporting things to higher ups when they should (wanting to prove themselves, fear of being seen as incompetent, simply not having authority or even the capability of getting someone above them involved). Or to put another way, you don't involve the President every time a patrol runs into a sniper. You're not coming into conflict with the BBEG, first you have to defeat the cultist in the town or village, which might lead you to other cults but only those involved in that one operation. That then puts you at odds with one branch of the cult's regional authority. Then as more successes happen you start running into other branches, or the same branch in other regions. And so on. You may eventually reach the head of the cult, but maybe the story arc ends after dealing only with the parts the PCs ever ran into. If the BBEG ever does actually find out about the PCs, they'll be wiped because they stepped into something that was way bigger than they anticipated, or maybe the BBEG takes a loss, diverts resources elsewhere, and now knows better how to keep the PCs from interfering with other plans that are happening in the background.
this is... exactly what I and other have been saying. the boss (stupidly) delegates authority rather than using the most powerful weapon in his arsenal as early and often as he can in order to give the PCs a sporting chance (from a gamist perspective) and because the opportunity cost doesn't add up to him(from a narrative perspective)

[Geddy2112]

Since you are the DM, it is really easy NOT to kill PC's. If you want, you can setup encounters and deus ex situations where the PC's cannot die.

I will echo several posters before me: if you don't try to kill PC's, they very rarely die. Not that death is not impossible, but so long as you're not designing encounters to kill PC's, they generally won't die by your hand(be killed). Granted, PC's can often do a bang up job of getting themselves on the wrong end of a save or die through no fault of your own, and here I echo posters above: if a PC jumps into a 100ft spiked pit, make them take the damage.

[ekarney]

Just have them meet a hooded DMPC in the bar first.

Threadnaught did that to me in my very first game. I still haven't recovered.


On topic though, tailor the encounters to your PC's. Don't use a 20th level wizard as your BBEG to your level 5 PC's.
Use maybe a level 6 - 7 Marshal, if he can't scry then he can't send his entire Ogre army towards the PC's at once since he could send them in the totally wrong direction, so he'd have to rely on his scouts, and as such instead of running into his 500 ogre army, you run into a small squad of 4 hobgoblin scouts. The PC's would have to kill them to stop them reporting the PC's location.

Or say perhaps they had to flee, so now the army knows where they are, however, a small group of lightly armoured PC's could easily outrun the Ogre army who has goblins supporting it as skirmishers, with their 20ft move speed. as well as having to carry all the associated supplies with sending an army on the march.

How can the Marshal BBEG afford to hire Ogre mercenaries? Not only that but how did he manage to acquire and train so many rust monsters?

What if a barrel of blasting powder fell of a wagon and the negligent Goblins/Ogre's didn't bother picking it back up? You now have an opportunity to give it to your PC's to set up as a trap, or as something to help defend the town the Ogre's are going to have to march through?

Maybe the town's gate is only 10ft wide and very well made if an ogre is large only one can fit through at a time so your PC's and the militia/mercenaries can set up a kill zone?

Not only is your game now much more realistic but your PC's aren't dropping like flies.

Give your players opportunities to play tactical. If your PC's get stuck in an open field battle with the entire army don't have just the 4/5 of them against the army, maybe the BBEG took up camp in the mountains and displaced the local drow populace who are now angry and willing to broker a deal with the PC's to help them stop the Ogre army. If all the 500 Ogre fighters are level 5 as well as your PC's have the the 200ish drow at level 6, with a lot of clerics/wizards. Have those drow use that Minotaur tribe they captured as slaves put to use as support troops, or have one of their hobgoblin slaves infiltrate the ogres with the promise of his freedom is he survives.

For every 1.5 advantages the enemies have, give the PC's 1. or even make it 1:1 for a fiery back and forth.
Repeating what others have said, sending a small army to your ill-equipped players is essentially dropping mountains.

[Threadnaught]

Threadnaught did that to me in my very first game. I still haven't recovered.

Amusingly enough, I tried to find a bull**** excuse to get rid once a third player had joined. Hoping he'd be able to find a reason to turn against the party.


I still haven't recovered.

"Do you ever get annoyed by the sound of this character's voice? Oh what am I saying? Of course you don't."


On topic though, tailor the encounters to your PC's.

Maybe not 100%, but I mostly agree with this point.


Don't use a 20th level wizard as your BBEG to your level 5 PC's.

Hey now, maybe the DM has a long term plan for the PCs that involves the fate of the universe, not just the PCs' home town, that's doomed from the start.
It shouldn't be news to learn that, you'd be absolutely screwed if the villains in my Campaign didn't have bigger problems. Yes, even him.


For every 1.5 advantages the enemies have, give the PC's 1. or even make it 1:1 for a fiery back and forth.
Repeating what others have said, sending a small army to your ill-equipped players is essentially dropping mountains.

[nedz]

Don't use a 20th level wizard as your BBEG to your level 5 PC's.

Unless he starts off friendly and only turns into a villain later.

But then I avoid BBEGs anyway. I prefer organisations then, if some NPC accidentally dies too early, your plot line isn't wrecked.

[ekarney]

Unless he starts off friendly and only turns into a villain later.

But then I avoid BBEGs anyway. I prefer organisations then, if some NPC accidentally dies too early, your plot line isn't wrecked.

Well yeah, there is exceptions, as you and Threadnaught have pointed out, I tend not to use BBEG's for anything longer than short term hooks, I've found myself to be using a lot of factions recently, so I think I might throw a BBEG at my players soon just so that they know they have someone to punch.

[Yahzi]

There seems to be two parts to this question.

1. I run a sandbox, so the PCs basically choose what encounters they want. Things are generally pretty clearly marked; if they murder the Baron's guardsmen then they know they are picking a fight with the Baron, which in my world means a 5th lvl. If they decide to go after a Duke when they are 3rd level, then I'm not killing them; they are killing themselves.

2. BBEGs didn't get to be B and B by taking risks. If some low-level party is mucking around, they are one of two things: a) adventurers on the make, or b) bait. If the BBEG personally deals with every low-level threat, sooner or later one of those threats is just going to be a trap set by some other BBG. and while the BBEG is chopping up low-level nobodies, the real threat will get the jump on them. Remember, in high-level D&D combat, whoever gets spotted first dies. So leaders send out low-level mooks to deal with low-level threats. Whoever is forced to save his mooks first reveals his position/capabilities and thus gets ganked by the other high-level leaders.

And whats the point of having low-level mooks if they can't handle a few level-appropriate threats anyway?

[Zirconia]

then come up with some IC reason why your bad guy isn't acting like a PC. maybe he's not sending his right hand guy after low level PCs because he has more important stuff to do (e.g. is dealing with a high level group of PCs elsewhere and is working his way down the food chain)

if your PCs wonder why your boss doesn't get off his ass and do something, give him something more important to attend do. maybe he's actively pursuing something that requires his attention and doesn't have time to hunt them down himself.

In fact, of *course* the BBEG should have more important things to do. They didn't set up their whole organization and plan just to wait around until your PCs showed up, so they could go stomp them. Their main focus could be that organization of Paladins that has learned much more about them and is sending 10th level groups against them, and the town with high level adventurers which is fighting back, not the 3rd level PCs.

As Isfreak said, it is also common for "bad guy" organizations to not want to report bad news upwards, so underlings will try to deal with things without the resources they need. The whole E.E. Doc Smith "Lensman" series hinges on that. Maybe because when you report bad news to a BBEG, you get dropped in the pool of sharks. With laser beams on their heads. :)

Finally, as Yahzi said, some of the BBEG's opposition could also be other BBEGs. I've recently been in a Call of Cthulhu game where ALL the factions could stomp the PCs. Said factions have contradictory plans for the Fate of the Earth, though, so we're trying to ally with the least offensive one (just doesn't care much about humans, doesn't actually plan to wipe them out) against others. If they started sending their main lieutenants, or worse, themselves to deal with everything, they would quickly find themselves getting lured into something bad, away from their lair.

[NevinPL]

[...]
The thing you describe, is IMO "rock falls everyone dies", so no.


[...]
Since I can't, won't get into a discussion, I'm just gonna say that my and your definition of "rocks fall, everyone dies" are different.
But you seem to agree with my "thesis" - DM (characters) must be handicapped, or PC's will die and\or their owners won't be happy.
The bit about people not liking you is strange\amusing.


[...]
I don't have a problem with making it harder. Baator, I won't even have to optimize\cheat\cheese\whatever much, since some levels ago (around 8), they meet a "friend" (12 level) of a vampire they were fighting, which resulted in Cleric receiving Divine Interdiction, and a quiet place (Sarcophagus of Stone) to "contemplate his life choices", and Witcher was off to the city, for something to break through it before the air runs out.
And no, it's not "rock falls...", or "immature". Just life - sometimes you end up in the wrong place, at the wrong time, because world doesn't revolve around you.


[...]
No, I'm not using a clone of a party. Just an example. I find the idea kind of cheap, lazy.
Although the evil twin, with equally evil goatee, done "over the top", is an amusing.


[...]
I get that (the list), but BBEG that got his\hers BBE Plan messed up by PC's, will want to take revenge. And not all of them are vile enough to take everything from them, sans their life, and are just gonna want to kill them, so I, as a DM, just gonna "want" to kill them.


[...]
In other words you don't go "full throttle". But that's what's bugging me, I want to, but I don't want to kill PC's.


[...]
IMO designing encounters around players, either for or against them, is not a good idea.


[...]
I'm using - (10 + CON modifier).


[...]
Like you said - Frodo was the main character, so it wouldn't matter (Mithril chainmail, magical sword, at "first" level, etc.) if Sauron realized this, or whatever.


[...]
They lost because of plot, but looks like you're aware of that.


[...]
Or kill him in a very flashy way (Crushing Fist of Spite works nicely, but is costly)
Or have PC's experience the death of someone they knew was tough (war veteran captain of the watch, that king necromancer that got away, etc.)


[...]
Not new, and not really set in their ways. Just not knowing all the "tips and tricks", what's going to happen, etc.
As for very appropriate loot, etc., like I said before - IMO not a good idea.


[...]
So there's no way to both side go 100%, and still have fun ?


[...]
Seems you misunderstood my question - it's not the NPC's death I have problem with, is the PC's.
What you described is IMO is too specific to how you do things. Baaator, MM has couple of monsters that will definitely fight to the last. Not to mention the "stupid X" bit, that seems to be the preferred "answer" to my question.
Although the bit about self preservation, in the case of some opponents is true.


[...]
I'm far from babysitting players. Done that mistake with my first group. The world doesn't revolve around them, so they have to face the consequences of their actions. But lately (~10th level) I find that providing interesting, challenging adventures is getting more "killy" for the PC's, and high level monsters, NPC's "coming out of (every) woodwork", is getting more cheesy for me.


[...]
Like I've (tried) to explain, being handicapped as a DM is what bugs me as much, as killing PC's while not being.
And I am trying to kill the PC's, either as INT skeleton, or a BBE Wizard, it's just that lately I'm too close to\succeeding too much.

As for the "dislike" for BBEG some of you mentioned, it was just an example, "thought shortcut". I do prefer something less "run-of-the-mill", like the "mercenary" organization, run by former adventures the party encountered some time ago.
I think they liked it too. Especially the adventurer grade, varied loot :)


P.S.
http://i.imgur.com/YX8Mdn5.jpg

[Threadnaught]

IMO designing encounters around players, either for or against them, is not a good idea.

What I said was...


Design encounters to challenge players.

Not designing encounters to kill their characters.

It's as simple as creating a challenge so that anyone with a brain or who makes preparations for just such an occasion, could survive. Whether they "win" the the encounter or just run, as long as it isn't effectively an auto kill because the DM is going all out. Like with a dozen unavoidable +10CR enemies, after the PCs have just been through the Tomb of Horrors.

A dozen bandits each ECL +2 above the party, ambushing the party by a river, is something PCs could survive after putting a rank or two in Swim and buying items to help with breathing.

Thirty Rust Monsters, twenty four Disenchanters, seventeen Living Spell Disjunctions and three Allip ambushing a party below 10th level as it rests, is something no PC could survive.


If you cannot make a challenge for your players, that is possible for them to get through, without them constantly dropping dead and with no opportunity to prevent it, you fail as a DM.

I don't care, if you don't like holding back then don't DM. It's part of DMing, you could throw the PCs against a Xixecal at level 1 before they've even equipped themselves, nobody who does this and blames the players for the inevitable result, deserves to be respected as anything more than a bully.
As a DM you hold back, you give excuses to certain NPCs so you can use them more than once, you make sure everything has some kind of weakness, the only thing that have to be a mindless killing machine are actual mindless killing machines.
Just look at Lex Luthor and his battles against Superman and the Justice League. He's always trying to kill Superman isn't he? It's not like he has anything else to do.

[Flickerdart]

I get that (the list), but BBEG that got his\hers BBE Plan messed up by PC's, will want to take revenge. And not all of them are vile enough to take everything from them, sans their life, and are just gonna want to kill them, so I, as a DM, just gonna "want" to kill them.
The BBEG is not real; he only wants what you want, and can only do what you decide he can do. If the PCs will TPK when they face him, they shouldn't be facing him and you have an entire world under your command to conjure the circumstances.

Did Charlemagne personally track down and kill Saxon raiders on his borders as soon as they showed up? No, probably didn't even know about them until a scheduled report arrived from his duke there, who was reported to by a count under him last week, who in turn received the report of a baron that last month he sent out his trusted knight Sir Whateversley with a squad of men at arms to deal with the problem, Sir Whateversley bravely died, and then the count sent a dozen knights who also died, and then the duke raised a levy, has set up men to guard the border, and now implores the Emperor to declare war.

[samduke]

one option that I employ from time to time as a DM is the variable hps of npc/monster while in battle , keeping tabs on how the group is doing vs. the encounter and if it looks like the pc's will start dieing doing a rapid deflation of monster hps, or having said monster fail a fear or other such check to flee.

[lsfreak]

this is... exactly what I and other have been saying. the boss (stupidly) delegates authority rather than using the most powerful weapon in his arsenal as early and often as he can in order to give the PCs a sporting chance (from a gamist perspective) and because the opportunity cost doesn't add up to him(from a narrative perspective)

That's not what I said at all. The BBEG probably doesn't even know what's going on, just like a general or other leader isn't informed of every firefight a patrol gets into. If they have a particularly problematic area, maybe eventually it gets kicked up to the general, but there's many in leadership positions under him that are are supposed to - and will try - to solve the problem themselves first without bringing it to the general's/BBEG's attention, because as leaders under the BBEG's command that's their job. Unless you have an egomaniacal leader that demands absolutely everything be presented to him, or runs a very small operation so that he realistically can delegate the whole thing himself, in which case yea you have to pull punches to keep them from wiping the floor with the PCs as soon as they get wind of any trouble.

[Flickerdart]

Unless you have an egomaniacal leader that demands absolutely everything be presented to him, or runs a very small operation so that he realistically can delegate the whole thing himself, in which case yea you have to pull punches to keep them from wiping the floor with the PCs as soon as they get wind of any trouble.
The first guy will probably still be working through last year's reports, and the second probably runs a small enough outfit that the PCs are actually a decent match in combat for him. You don't get epic archmages in charge of a dozen guys.

[VoxRationis]

The first guy will probably still be working through last year's reports, and the second probably runs a small enough outfit that the PCs are actually a decent match in combat for him. You don't get epic archmages in charge of a dozen guys.

I could see an archmage in charge of a dozen guys. Their plans tend not to require too many devoted followers; a lot of the plans simply involve doing some ritual or another, and that doesn't (usually) take an army.

[Earthwalker]

As DM you control the whole world.
As such isn't it possible to have many reasons not to attack the PCs with over whealming force.

The BBEG is trying to live under the radar until his manages to become a Lich, facing the PC personally is too great a risk so he sends minions.

The OP has mentioned a mercenary company that might want to kill the PCs and take thier stuff. Is there no law and order in the world ? Is killing people and taking thier items legal in this world ? If so change that.

If you have a group of PCs at lvl 3 that manage to cause problems for Evil Operations (tm) does mean that EO send out lvl 15 assassins. Becuase the good organizations would notice the murder of a group of adventurers and that just causes more problems.

There are millions of reasons to control how people (NPCs) act, you control the whole world. None of them have to be the villian is dumb.

Even if you want to go that way it can be honour before reason dumb. Or what other mental defect you want to put on the villian, YOU CONTROL EVERYTHING !!

[ahenobarbi]

[B][FONT=Book Antiqua]I think this is not just my problem, since encounter level table in DMG is nerfed - an encounter with a "clone" of PC's party, is higher than the PC's party level.


No, it isn't - a single character is CR = level, and two doublings mean that a four-man party is CR+4. Incidentally, this is exactly the sort of encounter that's supposed to consume all of a party's resources for the day, and has a roughly even risk of defeat. So a party is equal to itself.

Nitpick: unless party are vampires (or other creatures with base CR < RHD + LA). If they are vampires their own copies are easy target somehow.

[NevinPL]

Guess it's just problem with my "vision", way I see, run things, etc.

AFAIC I got my answer. Thank you.

[Killer Angel]

you say "playing bad guys dumb" like it's a bad thing.

by "dumb" I mean "not optimized like a PC." not that you have to have them act like they're villains on the 60s batman how.

I like also to have bad guys weaker than the PCs... and use them at their full potential.
The players have the feeling that the enemy is acting "real", and (indeed) the fight is very difficult, but it's so much harder to kill PCs.

[Flickerdart]

Nitpick: unless party are vampires (or other creatures with base CR < RHD + LA). If they are vampires their own copies are easy target somehow.
Oh, true. Though PC vampires will definitely have gone out of their way to obtain the most powerful minions, swinging the balance their way somewhat.

[Rhyltran]

That's not what I said at all. The BBEG probably doesn't even know what's going on, just like a general or other leader isn't informed of every firefight a patrol gets into. If they have a particularly problematic area, maybe eventually it gets kicked up to the general, but there's many in leadership positions under him that are are supposed to - and will try - to solve the problem themselves first without bringing it to the general's/BBEG's attention, because as leaders under the BBEG's command that's their job. Unless you have an egomaniacal leader that demands absolutely everything be presented to him, or runs a very small operation so that he realistically can delegate the whole thing himself, in which case yea you have to pull punches to keep them from wiping the floor with the PCs as soon as they get wind of any trouble.

I like this because it sounds a lot like our campaign. Why does the BBEG need to know who the party is at all? In our first adventure we found out that some bandits have been attacking caravans on the road and usually killing their guards (but not the owners) before stealing their stuff. So many people who make money traveling from town to town for trading have been suffering. It's been especially bad between the main city and this smaller town. We decided to aid one of these caravans.

We get attacked by bandits and as we're winning one of them surrenders. He begs for his freedom, informing us that the mayor of the town is hiring the bandits to steal from the merchants. Then if the merchants are wealthy they will hire mercenaries to get the goods back. The town guard acts as these "mercenaries" and "retrieves" the goods back. In the end the only one profiting is the small town. (Skipping a lot of details) we also find out that the bandits are also on the mayor's payroll. After dealing with them we learn something else. The mayor is a cleric worshiping an evil deity that is preparing for war.

Fast forward. Later we discover disappearances in the major city. We also discover the attacks were from a vampire spawn leading some controlled Goblins. He's acting as a sleeper agent to shake things up in one of the major powers of the world (the city we're in) dealing with him we learn that a castle that once stood and was defeated is amassing an army.

Sometime later BBEG becomes a bit more bold. He starts sending groups to kill travelers and monsters to decimate towns under the castle's name. These groups act more like loyal terrorists of a dead power than an active army that still exists. He does this because he learns two of his "Agents" are now dead but here's the kicker. He doesn't know who killed them. We're currently on a journey to the most powerful fortress that's closest to the castle to inform them that the castle's power is returning.

Most of our journey has been dealing with the perils of traveling, facing local threats, getting attacked by a dinosaur at one point, captured by lizard men, and whatever. In the end, however, the BBEG doesn't even know we exist. We're not even on his radar yet. The point to all of this is you can have a story where the BBEG doesn't know the party exists. He's not going to know everyone in the world or what they're up to. Also if the party has only had indirect contact with his forces that makes it even less likely he'd even know who they are or where they're from.