Polearms

[Talakeal]

I am trying to broaden my horizons and play a character who wields a pole-arm in my current PF game, and am not quite sure how to proceed.

This is even tougher because:
1: The DM doesn't allow 5 foot steps.
2: The DM doesn't allow you to take movement based AoOs unless the enemy is moving away from you.
3: Our frontline fighter misses game night more often than not.

So, any idea what sort of tactics I am supposed to use to make a pole-arm work for me? Even under the best of cases it seems tough, but with considering the table rules I can't see why I shouldn't just grab a long sword. Any advice from some experienced halberdiers out there?

[Bucky]

5 foot steps are quite important, as is the first-strike AoO. Nonetheless, if you know they will be unavailable, you can pack a spiked gauntlet or boot blade for emergency close-in attacks. You can also tag them with a readied action on the way in (which should be a trip or disarm, not an attack, to make them stay in your sweet spot). And worst case, you can pack both the polearm and the sword and drop the polearm when they get inside your reach.

However, don't expect to learn too much from a DM who nerfbats whatever combat style he doesn't like.

[Darrin]

You didn't mention what books are available. Some things to consider:

Earth Dwarf (Unearthed Arcana p. 16). Str +2, Con +2, Dex -2, Cha -2, +4 racial bonus to notice/appraise/craft stonework, +8 stability bonus. You give up your +2 bonus against spell effects and take a -2 penalty on all spell effects/attacks with the [air] descriptor/subtype.

Or Fireblood Dwarf (Dragon Magic p. 7). Lose the +2 save vs. poison, +4 AC vs. giants switches to dragons, gain resistance to fire 5 and the dragonblood subtype.

Complete Warrior pages 154-155, under Weapon Familiarity, there's some rules that allow you to swap your familiarity with racial weapons to something else, such as dropping the Dwarven Waraxe and Dwarven Urgrosh for the Dwarven Warpike (AKA "Greatsword on a Stick") and Dwarven Buckler-Axe (Races of Stone). The Warpike is a reach weapon, 2d6 damage, and you can make trip attacks with it.

Add two levels of Barbarian, Spirit Lion Totem (Complete Champion) for Pounce and Wolf Totem (Unearthed Arcana) for Improved Trip without the prereqs. When you get an open feat slot, pick up Knock-Down (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/divine/divineAbilitiesFeats.htm#knockDown) from the Divine section of the SRD.

If you can't get an AoO from movement, then trip them and get it when they stand up.

[Dusk Eclipse]

PF game


am trying to broaden my horizons and play a character who wields a pole-arm in my current PF game, and am not quite sure how to proceed.

And while your advice is, as usual, pretty solid Darrin if the DM doesn't allow using core combat mechanics, do you really think he would allow stuff like the Spirit Totems or Knockdown? I seriously doubt it.

In your case Talakeal I suggest picking up a Halber (which isn't a reach weapon) and go normal TWF strats, power attack+furious focus; that is assuming you want the mental image of a pole-arm wielder and don't care much about the mechanic aspect.

[Darrin]

PF game

Whoops. Sorry about that. Details, details...

(All I know about Pathfinder is the Beginner's Box, so I'll have to defer to more worldly experts.)

[Psyren]

So, any idea what sort of tactics I am supposed to use to make a pole-arm work for me? Even under the best of cases it seems tough, but with considering the table rules I can't see why I shouldn't just grab a long sword. Any advice from some experienced halberdiers out there?

If your GM doesn't allow 5-foot steps then a longsword or other non-reach weapon is a very bad idea.

Anyway, it's not complicated - you're a fighter. Pick a favorite combat maneuver (I suggest trip, as many polearms are trip weapons) for utility, focus on damage otherwise, get a backup ranged weapon (Composite bow is a good choice) and a backup light weapon (Dagger or Shortsword, in case something swallows you) and go to town. What are your stats/point buy?

[Talakeal]

If your GM doesn't allow 5-foot steps then a longsword or other non-reach weapon is a very bad idea.

Anyway, it's not complicated - you're a fighter. Pick a favorite combat maneuver (I suggest trip, as many polearms are trip weapons) for utility, focus on damage otherwise, get a backup ranged weapon (Composite bow is a good choice) and a backup light weapon (Dagger or Shortsword, in case something swallows you) and go to town. What are your stats/point buy?

Woah, hold, I am not a fighter, I am sorry if I gave you that impression.

I am a ranger and my stats are 12 dex, 10 con, 13 cha, 14 str, 12 int, 14 wis.

I planned the character to be primarily an archer (and that is my fighting style), but our actual fighter hasn't been showing a lot recently and the DM has a rather loose concept of distance on the game board, so I have been having to melee a lot more than I am comfortable with recently and trying to figure out how to do it properly.


My build is really not supposed to be about melee, I was hoping to be a skill monkey with a little bit of archery support, but now I am having to be a frontline fighter and trying to figure out some tactics that work.

[Bucky]

If you don't want to invest feats in combat maneuvers, you can pick up a masterwork Ranseur for a +3 on your ready-action disarms, avoiding the combat maneuver AoO by being outside of their reach.

[Urpriest]

If the DM has a loose concept of distance then generically, reach weapons won't do anything for you.

The default advice here is to change your DM's mind, or change to a different DM. I'm assuming you've already considered that.

In this case, I think it's best to treat the DM as if they were intelligent, even if they actually aren't. One way to do that is to ask what, given the DM's houserules and choice to play gridless, the DM's intention is with regard to reach weapons. Presumably (at least, you can pretend you presume), the DM has some combat strategy in mind for them that jives with his picture on how the game should work. Just keep asking until he tells you what it is.

[Talakeal]

If the DM has a loose concept of distance then generically, reach weapons won't do anything for you.

The default advice here is to change your DM's mind, or change to a different DM. I'm assuming you've already considered that.

In this case, I think it's best to treat the DM as if they were intelligent, even if they actually aren't. One way to do that is to ask what, given the DM's houserules and choice to play gridless, the DM's intention is with regard to reach weapons. Presumably (at least, you can pretend you presume), the DM has some combat strategy in mind for them that jives with his picture on how the game should work. Just keep asking until he tells you what it is.


I tried talking with him about it. He told me that in his opinion the only viable weapon style should be a hand axe and shield and that anything else is unrealistic* and thus he doesn't see any need to make it mechanically viable.

I am probably just going to switch to a standard spear and call it a day, although mechanically it is just flat out inferior to a long sword or bastard sword.


*In his opinion armor is just too much more effective than melee weapons. He claims that axes are the only weapons that have a chance of penetrating armor and that shields are so effective only an idiot would use a two handed weapon.

[Psyren]

Ye gods, those stats are terrible. Only a Zen/Guided Hand Archer could get away with 12 dex, and you have no business being in melee with 10 Con and 14 Str either.

Are these after racials?

[Talakeal]

Ye gods, those stats are terrible. Only a Zen/Guided Hand Archer could get away with 12 dex, and you have no business being in melee with 10 Con and 14 Str either.

Are these after racials?

Yes, these are after racials.

As I said, I was built as a skill monkey and party face first and a combatant second but am getting forced into that role.

Is a 14 strength really bad for a ranger in a point buy system? The cost scales so quickly that I don't think anyone in the party put more than a 14 in a stat.

[Bucky]

With a 15 point buy (I'm assuming?) it's normal to use racial bonuses to hit 16 in a key stat even for builds that need several good modifiers.

16/14/12/10/10/8 is a more typical array for a 15 point buy human. If you think you need a +1 or better modifier on everything with a 15 point buy, you need to focus your build more.

You can even go to 18/14/13/10/7/7 if you can safely dump both Cha and Int.

[Talakeal]

With a 15 point buy (I'm assuming?) it's normal to use racial bonuses to hit 16 in a key stat even for builds that need several good modifiers.

16/14/12/10/10/8 is a more typical array for a 15 point buy human. If you think you need a +1 or better modifier on everything with a 15 point buy, you need to focus your build more.

You can even go to 18/14/13/10/7/7 if you can safely dump both Cha and Int.

Before racial mods I was 15 14 12 12 10 8, which is pretty close to what you suggested.

As I said, I am the party face / skill monkey first and foremost, so I can't dump int or cha.

The problem is that our party consists of a (horribly unoptimized) druid, a mage, and a brawler. The brawler doesnt show up half the time though, so I have to fill in as front line melee.

[Bucky]

You took a racial penalty to your highest stat, and a racial bonus to your lowest stat? That's a major optimization flub; You got a net +4 stats from race, but given how you assigned your stats, you effectively got only 3 extra buy-points from the combined racial modifiers. You should have chosen a different role, a different race or a different method of filling your role.

(also, your points don't add up. 15/14/12/12/10/8 costs 14)

[Dusk Eclipse]

Talakeal's DM outright punishes optimization IIRC.

[Talakeal]

You took a racial penalty to your highest stat, and a racial bonus to your lowest stat? That's a major optimization flub; You got a net +2 stats from race, but given how you assigned your stats, you effectively got only 1 extra buy-point from the combined racial modifiers. You should have chosen a different role, a different race or a different method of filling your role.

(also, your points don't add up. 15/14/12/12/10/8 costs 14)

Yeah, I agree. You are right about the missing point, hmm i guess I botched the ma. Ah well, its not like an odd stat point does anything anyway.

The problem was that we are all playing dwarves for Storyline reasons and as I was voted the party face I needed to put my highest stat into CHA. I figured the low con wouldnt hurt me because rangers have a good fortitude anyway and I didnt ever expect to get into melee.

[Bucky]

The problem was that we are all playing dwarves for Storyline reasons and as I was voted the party face I needed to put my highest stat into CHA. I figured the low con wouldnt hurt me because rangers have a good fortitude anyway and I didnt ever expect to get into melee.

Hmm... I guess that means you needed to dump Int.

[Urpriest]

I tried talking with him about it. He told me that in his opinion the only viable weapon style should be a hand axe and shield and that anything else is unrealistic* and thus he doesn't see any need to make it mechanically viable.

I am probably just going to switch to a standard spear and call it a day, although mechanically it is just flat out inferior to a long sword or bastard sword.


*In his opinion armor is just too much more effective than melee weapons. He claims that axes are the only weapons that have a chance of penetrating armor and that shields are so effective only an idiot would use a two handed weapon.

I feel like you're trying to get something out of this game that the DM doesn't want you to, and it sounds like if you use an "unrealistic" choice of weapon (because of course no-one in history used spears!) then your DM will make up new houserules to penalize it. Any reason you're not just switching to Axe+Shield?

[Talakeal]

Hmm... I guess that means you needed to dump Int.

Here's the thing, my character was not built as a combatant. I was built to fill the "skill monkey" role that the rogue usually fulfills, so I put my highest stats into my mental scores. The problem is that now that our fighter is missing and our druid is hilariously unoptomized (he doesn't even have an AC) I now have to fill in as a melee combatant.

The issue isn't really my build, I am more curious about how I actually play at the table and what tactics I can use. Without a front rank to hide behind I don't really see the purpose of a pole-arm, and without AoOs for approach and 5 foot steps it seems like they can't be used in place of a standard melee weapon anyway.


I feel like you're trying to get something out of this game that the DM doesn't want you to, and it sounds like if you use an "unrealistic" choice of weapon (because of course no-one in history used spears!) then your DM will make up new houserules to penalize it. Any reason you're not just switching to Axe+Shield?

I don't much care for axes and I wanted to try something different from the usual sword or mace that most of my characters have used in the past.

[Malak'ai]

Hmm... I guess that means you needed to dump Int.

And why would the OP dump INT on a character who was designed to be a party face/skill monkey with no intention of getting into melee?

The problem is that one of the other players isn't turning up, thus isn't doing their job, so unfortunately the OP's character is being forced into melee.

@Talakeal: I'm sorry, I have no experience with PF so I can't offer build advice, but might I suggest a very large, heavy hard cover book to the side of your DM's head for being nothing but a complete pillock?

[Extra Anchovies]

Talakeal, I can't help but wonder: have you somehow managed to stick with one terrible DM for this long, or do you just have really bad luck when it comes to finding new gamemasters?

[Psyren]

Yeah, I agree. You are right about the missing point, hmm i guess I botched the ma. Ah well, its not like an odd stat point does anything anyway.

Actually, a 13 in Int or Str is useful for a number of things.

Is it too late to redo your stats?

[Talakeal]

Actually, a 13 in Int or Str is useful for a number of things.

Is it too late to redo your stats?

Really? Aside from encumbrance (which we dont play with) I cant think of anything. Is it a feat prerequisite?

[Psyren]

Really? Aside from encumbrance (which we dont play with) I cant think of anything. Is it a feat prerequisite?

Yes - Power Attack, Combat Expertise, etc. etc.

[(Un)Inspired]

I tried talking with him about it. He told me that in his opinion the only viable weapon style should be a hand axe and shield and that anything else is unrealistic* and thus he doesn't see any need to make it mechanically viable.

*In his opinion armor is just too much more effective than melee weapons. He claims that axes are the only weapons that have a chance of penetrating armor and that shields are so effective only an idiot would use a two handed weapon.

Lol. That is awesome.

[Vhaidara]

I think your GM needs to watch some history channel.

Also, if he's complaining about realism, make this point: IRL, if someone stands around speaking bad Latin while mixing bat **** and sulfur, will they create a good sized, very well contained explosion over a hundred feet away from them?

Does Fireball still work?

[The Evil DM]

Talakeal, I can't help but wonder: have you somehow managed to stick with one terrible DM for this long, or do you just have really bad luck when it comes to finding new gamemasters?

I am starting up a campaign with the sole purpose of finding the most masochistic players to abuse.

Talakeal - you are my first invitee.

[Talakeal]

I think your GM needs to watch some history channel.

Also, if he's complaining about realism, make this point: IRL, if someone stands around speaking bad Latin while mixing bat **** and sulfur, will they create a good sized, very well contained explosion over a hundred feet away from them?

Does Fireball still work?

Another case of the "But Dragons!" fallacy I see!

Actually no, he bans almost all direct damage spells as he believes they are OP.


I am starting up a campaign with the sole purpose of finding the most masochistic players to abuse.

Talakeal - you are my first invitee.

Can't be any worse.... I'm in!

[The Evil DM]

Can't be any worse.... I'm in!

First you have to drive from New Mexico Wastelands to Tucson this Saturday. After the approximately 4 to 8 hour drive - depending on exactly where in New Mexico you are.... I will say oops sorry, game cancelled. Come back tomorrow.

House Rule #1: All characters are created with a cash point buy system. All stats start with a 6. For a +1 pay the GM $1. For a +2 pay the GM $3. For a +3 pay the GM $6. Sequence continues geometrically.

+4 = $10
+5 = $15

and so on with no limit.

House Rule #2: All NPCs and Monsters have 18's in all ability scores, before species/racial modifiers

House Rule #3: All NPCs and Monsters use a d10 + 10 instead of d20 - to bring more risk to the game.

House Rule #4: All PCs suck.. They roll a d10 instead of a d20.

[Kantolin]

I am trying to broaden my horizons and play a character who wields a pole-arm

A character who uses a scimitar, rapier, or other high-crit weapon is different from a longsword wielder by focusing on frequent critical hits. Thus, to achieve the different feel of the weapon, the suggestion would be to focus on things the weapon does well.

A character who uses a whip has a lot of reach but neither threatens nor does damage. Thus, to achieve the different feel of the weapon, the suggestion would be to focus on tripping, disarming, or other things the weapon does well.

A character who uses a polearm capitalizes on battlefield control, maneuvering, and keeping people from approaching easily. Your DM has essentially stated that he'd rather polearms not do this. Ergo, there are three responses I can see:

One: You do it anyway, or find some feat combination that enables you to do it anyway. This is probably mean-spirited - your DM made these house rules to be utilized, not to be ignored, and that may make him annoyed. Still, it could get you the horizon-broadening different-feel you're looking for.

Two: You use a polearm, but with none of its strengths. This is akin to punching someone with a bow - I'm sure there are builds out there that can take 'I punch him with my bow' and make it do 38d20+900 damage, but that certainly won't have the feel of an archer. Or basically: If people manage to help with a build that uses polearms but is basically an axe, it'll feel like an axe in play. Still, that does technically achieve the goal of 'using a polearm'.

Three: You ask the DM 'hey, what kind of feel do you want from a polearm?' Then from his response, decide if you would like to play with that flavor or if you'd like to do something else. It sounds like he wants the feel to be 'you are using an inferior weapon to an axe'. Which can work - perhaps your character is holding fast to a family tradition of using the spear despite ridicule, perhaps he's searching for a legendary spear, whatever. Still, if you're going to play in his games, it behooves you to play by his rules - although it won't really be broadening your horizons.

Alternately you can say 'that doesn't sound very fun' and leave. Leaving is always an option.

[Talakeal]

First you have to drive from New Mexico Wastelands to Tucson this Saturday. After the approximately 4 to 8 hour drive - depending on exactly where in New Mexico you are.... I will say oops sorry, game cancelled. Come back tomorrow.

House Rule #1: All characters are created with a cash point buy system. All stats start with a 6. For a +1 pay the GM $1. For a +2 pay the GM $3. For a +3 pay the GM $6. Sequence continues geometrically.

+4 = $10
+5 = $15

and so on with no limit.

House Rule #2: All NPCs and Monsters have 18's in all ability scores, before species/racial modifiers

House Rule #3: All NPCs and Monsters use a d10 + 10 instead of d20 - to bring more risk to the game.

House Rule #4: All PCs suck.. They roll a d10 instead of a d20.

Are you intentionally referencing my experiences in "http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405666-This-is-how-normal-people-game" ? Because if not, you really hit the nail on the head.

And you know what, honestly I would probably be ok with that game as presented, because at least you are stating the screw-job upfront unlike my current game where the DM delights in pulling the rug out from under you by changing the rules on the spot or criticizing you after the fact.



Three: You ask the DM 'hey, what kind of feel do you want from a polearm?' Then from his response, decide if you would like to play with that flavor or if you'd like to do something else. It sounds like he wants the feel to be 'you are using an inferior weapon to an axe'. Which can work - perhaps your character is holding fast to a family tradition of using the spear despite ridicule, perhaps he's searching for a legendary spear, whatever. Still, if you're going to play in his games, it behooves you to play by his rules - although it won't really be broadening your horizons.
.

My character is a hunter, so it makes sense for me to use a spear of some sort. An axe just doesn't seem right for the concept.

[Kantolin]

My character is a hunter, so it makes sense for me to use a spear of some sort. An axe just doesn't seem right for the concept.

Then that works, then - I'd go find some spear that doesn't have reach (Trident? That's a good spear for 'also using a shield', which sounds like a goal, and does good damage for a one hander at 1d8) and call it a day.

I don't think the majority of the martial two-handed spears make as much sense for a huntsman, and the game doesn't seem conducive to utilizing them, so there you go.

If you do use a reach-spear, then be aware you're going to have some trouble - you are actually using a weapon that you'll probably never be able to attack with in combat! As every time you use it you'll have to move away (provoking an attack of opportunity), and they then can advance (not provoking an AOO). Thus, using a reach weapon means you're going to be attacked a lot in combat without any gain I can think of (Heck, people can essentially 5ft step away from /you/ if they care to!)

So in other words, it is ill advised to use a reach weapon. So, it is advised to not use a reach weapon, haha. Go with a trident or sommat, use a shield (perhaps a mythril shield to avoid penalties?)

[DrMotives]

My character is a hunter, so it makes sense for me to use a spear of some sort. An axe just doesn't seem right for the concept.

What if you hunt logs, and your ranger favored enemy is a tree? Sort of an anti-Lorax?

[The Evil DM]

Are you intentionally referencing my experiences in "http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?405666-This-is-how-normal-people-game" ? Because if not, you really hit the nail on the head.

And you know what, honestly I would probably be ok with that game as presented, because at least you are stating the screw-job upfront unlike my current game where the DM delights in pulling the rug out from under you by changing the rules on the spot or criticizing you after the fact.

I did see that thread go by some time ago, but really I am referencing all your posts about crappy gaming experiences.

But jest aside - if you happen to be in the southern region of New Mexico - I got a good friend and gamer in the El Paso area and if you want to make the trip would welcome you to our gaming environment.

Then we could find out once and for all if it is you - or your "Friends"

[Darrin]

Rather than trying to reinvent your ranger (and attempt to second-guess how your DM is going to be an asshat), why not just hire some muscle to take on some of the tanking? I think hireling mercs cost something like 3 SP a day.

[Larkas]

I think your GM needs to watch some history channel.

What do conspiracy theories and "real life" aliens have to do with a Pathfinder game? You do realize Illithids can't be officially ported, right? :smallbiggrin:

[The Evil DM]

What do conspiracy theories and "real life" aliens have to do with a Pathfinder game? You do realize Illithids can't be officially ported, right? :smallbiggrin:

Illithids cannot be used for commercial purposes due to copyright law, but anyone has fair use rights to use them in any non-commercial home game they wish. Considering that Illithids are essentially Lovecraftian horrors just read lovecraft - find something you like and then give it a name and you have your own illithid.

[Psyren]

Illithids cannot be used for commercial purposes due to copyright law, but anyone has fair use rights to use them in any non-commercial home game they wish. Considering that Illithids are essentially Lovecraftian horrors just read lovecraft - find something you like and then give it a name and you have your own illithid.

I don't think he was being entirely serious :smalltongue:

(Though official PF has Lovecraftian aliens anyway.)

[Larkas]

I don't think he was being entirely serious :smalltongue:

(Though official PF has Lovecraftian aliens anyway.)

Oh, shoot, I forgot Lovecraftian horrors don't go with blue. My bad!

[Elricaltovilla]

Oh, shoot, I forgot Lovecraftian horrors don't go with blue. My bad!

Yeah they really only go well with the color out of space (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Colour_Out_of_Space).

[Earthwalker]

What level is your ranger ?
Does he have his animal companion yet ?

It might be helpful to use that as a buffer to use reach and fight over your companion. I would go for some martial polearm as you can use them and find something with a modifier for a combat manuver like trip. Can you get a wolf pet tripping as you stand back and trip ?

The only time I have played a reach wielder was a bard / cavalier and the whole deal was fighting behind someone providing as many bonuses on them as I could stack, even throwing in an aid other to boost who ever I was fighting behind.

Not sure if any of that helps.