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Deel
2007-04-27, 04:15 AM
I was just looking around for good stuff for an unarmored fighter and came upon this:

Edit: http://www.orfinlir.de/index.php?id=Feats

Should be in that list, in the first column.

It seems very good. Too good, to be honest. It's like an amped up defense rule variant from Unearthed Arcana. Or a slightly better defense of Vow of Poverty(but without the drawbacks.) It does only act like an armor bonus though, as far as I can tell, as it only specifies that it is against flat-footed attacks and not touch attacks, though you could argue otherwise with how they word the bonus(to your base AC.) You do need to use 3 feats to get to master level as well...

Would this be too much?

Thiel
2007-04-27, 04:53 AM
The link doesn't work

Dhavaer
2007-04-27, 04:56 AM
It works for me, but there's no feat there, and it's all in German. Or it looks like German.

Deel
2007-04-27, 05:01 AM
Sorry, didn't think direct linking would do that. Put a link to the feat list itself up. And it should be in english.

Rad
2007-04-27, 05:40 AM
Full plate +5 has an armor bonus of 13 and reduces movement (and skills). the expert unarmed gives a +17 and has no disadvantage at all (freeing up some money too). and it stacks with everything (VoP, monk etc.). I didn't have a LOT of time to consider it, but it cam make an "unarmored" character very well defended.
Would you like to fight a wizard with that?

Dhavaer
2007-04-27, 06:22 AM
Yeah, that's crazy good. That's +7 to AC at first level, if you're human and take a flaw. Definately overpowered. At the very least, it needs a very, very high BAB requirement.

Eldritch_Ent
2007-04-27, 07:08 AM
I certainly hope that feat isn't from a book. O_o I can see how that could be abused. (Especially if someone was using a monk, gah!)

Ikkitosen
2007-04-27, 07:16 AM
Yeah, silly.

ravenkith
2007-04-27, 07:40 AM
As is, broken.

Fixable by turning the bonus it provides into a specific, named type, so it won't stack with certain things.

It would make sense for it to be a dodge bonus, since this is for an unarmored character, but that might ot nerf this enough, what with dodge bonuses stacking and all.

If you made it provide an actually armor bonus, that would help, even if it doesn't make sense, flavor wise.

Maybe make it a Block Bonus, and then have block bonuses count the same as armor bonuses (meaning they don't stack with each other, but technically if you have a block bonus, you aren't actually wearing armor).

The idea here is that you learn to block as a reflex action, instead of relying on your armor to take whatever blows come your way.

This means, of course, that if you have these feats, you can't really get any benefit from bracers of AC, or the like...

Add in a BAB +4 for the second feat and a BAB +8 for the third, and I think it'd work quite nicely at that point.

OTOH, I'd make it a monk bonus feat available instead of the usual monk bonus feats at each corresponding level...but a monk can ignore any bab requirement posted.

So, the monk can take all three feats by level six (instead of level 8 for a straight fighter or ranger, or level 11 for a rogue), but he has to give up all of his other bonus feat options in order to become a defensively focused monk.

Note: Straight wizards can't pick up the second feat until level eight and the third until level 16. reducing the wizards FTW! aspect of the feat immensely.

Oh, and monks need all the help they can get, especially in mid-late game.

Dhavaer
2007-04-27, 07:51 AM
So, the monk can take all three feats by level six (instead of level 8 for a straight fighter or ranger, or level 11 for a rogue), but he has to give up all of his other bonus feat options in order to become a defensively focused monk.

9 for a Ranger and 12 for a Rogue. They don't get feats at 8 or 11.

Indon
2007-04-27, 07:52 AM
A couple problems:

-The feats need BAB requirements. I'd say +1/+6/+11. As it is, paying 3 feats in order to get the equivalent of what, +4 (Mithral) Full Plate (edit: and a +5 Amulet of Natural Armor) at level 20, that's not all that bad by that level. The scaling could still use tweaking, though.
-The feats specify they don't stack with armor bonuses from armor. This is sloppy rule-scripting that DO mean you can benefit from Bracers of Armor (because they provide an armor bonus that is not from armor).
-The bonus should be one you lose when flat-footed. This one isn't.

brian c
2007-04-27, 11:19 AM
As is, A Vow of Poverty + Vow of Peace Monk has the following AC at level 20:

base 10
+17 (unarmored defense proficiency, master)
+4 (monk)
+6 (Vow of Peace, various)
+10 (ascetic AC bonus)
+3 (ascetic deflection)
+2 (ascetic natural armor)
+10 (wisdom; starting 18, add ascetic bonuses and every 4/levels)
+6 (dexterity; starting 16 secondary ascetic ability bonus)

68 AC, and I'm pretty sure you can have more on top of that.

If it were possible to have Unarmored Defense Proficiency (master) and both Vows at level 1, which I know it isn't, that would be about 34 AC.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-27, 11:27 AM
As is, A Vow of Poverty + Vow of Peace Monk has the following AC at level 20:

base 10
+17 (unarmored defense proficiency, master)
+4 (monk)
+6 (Vow of Peace, various)
+10 (ascetic AC bonus)
+3 (ascetic deflection)
+2 (ascetic natural armor)
+10 (wisdom; starting 18, add ascetic bonuses and every 4/levels)
+6 (dexterity; starting 16 secondary ascetic ability bonus)

68 AC, and I'm pretty sure you can have more on top of that.

If it were possible to have Unarmored Defense Proficiency (master) and both Vows at level 1, which I know it isn't, that would be about 34 AC.

L1 character: 1 feat
HumanStrongheart Halfling: 1 feat (and +1 Size to AC, and +2 Dex)
2 Flaws (the max allowed): 2 feats

So, Sacred Vow + Vow of Poverty + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Beginner) + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Intermediate) at level 1. Level 2 you can pick up Vow of Peace as your Exalted Bonus feat, level 3 grab Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Master) and be golden.

JackMage666
2007-04-27, 11:28 AM
Fighter Level Requirement... Like Weapon Specialization.. That way, only Fighters (and, to a lesser extent, some Martial Adepts, or some Swashbuckler/Fighter mixes) have the abilities. Maybe allow the first one with a BAB +1, like Weapon Focus. Fighters need the boost.

Latronis
2007-04-27, 12:20 PM
Except i did away with fighter only feats, giving them an appropiate BAB prerequisite where neccassary then letting fighters take feats with a BAB prerequisite at 2 BAB early

so it don't help my table much ^_^

But yeah the feat should at least say the bonus is lost while footfooted.

EDIT: Also i just noted the shielded agility feat there lets you take a shield without losing the benefit of that feat either

Dausuul
2007-04-27, 12:25 PM
But yeah the feat should at least say the bonus is lost while footfooted.

It also should not stack with bracers of armor.

Latronis
2007-04-27, 12:32 PM
Yeah but that could be a translation error, rather then what was actually intended.

A lot of the feats read like they were run through a translator or a not quite fluent English speaker

Deel
2007-04-27, 01:34 PM
Would it be broken as just an armor bonus? It would still apply to flatfooted attacks, but not touch attacks, and it couldn't stack with Bracers of Armor.

If I used it with the character I am considering using it with(martial artist variant swordsage), it would give me 27 AC at level 6, is that too much? With a mithril shirt I currently only have 21.

brian c
2007-04-27, 01:44 PM
Yeah but that could be a translation error, rather then what was actually intended.

A lot of the feats read like they were run through a translator or a not quite fluent English speaker

Well, the website is german, so probably just a quick translation.

Overall really, the feat(s) seem a little strong but definitely not overpowered, since they're going to be more helpful to melee characters anyway.

brian c
2007-04-27, 04:53 PM
L1 character: 1 feat
HumanStrongheart Halfling: 1 feat (and +1 Size to AC, and +2 Dex)
2 Flaws (the max allowed): 2 feats

So, Sacred Vow + Vow of Poverty + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Beginner) + Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Intermediate) at level 1. Level 2 you can pick up Vow of Peace as your Exalted Bonus feat, level 3 grab Unarmored Defense Proficiency (Master) and be golden.

Lovely, except for Vow of Peace you need to take Vow of Nonviolence first, so you can't get all that until your next bonus exalted feat at 4th level.

Deel
2007-04-27, 04:55 PM
Actually, if you took Vow of Poverty at level 1 you get a bonus exalted feat, then at level 2 and every even level thereafter. It doesn't show it in the chart, but the text says it. So you could get it by level 2 if you took vow of non-violence as a bonus at level 1.

Viscount Einstrauss
2007-04-27, 05:09 PM
Which would be super awesome if you weren't suddenly incapable of combat due to your feat choice :P

I think this feat would be balanced with a level requirement and class restriction. That class being monk. Monks could use the extra power as it is.

Talya
2007-04-27, 05:15 PM
Massively overpowered. And forget level 1, look at it as you level up:
At level 20, your base armor class is 27.

Base.

That applies to touch armor, flatfooted, everything.

And you can add to it...deflection, dodge, natural, shield, luck...and dexterity. Unlimited dexterity bonuses...

Deel
2007-04-27, 05:15 PM
Hey, if you are going vow, you are probably a monk already. You can still deal non-lethal damage, and at no attack penalty. I think the needing to take everything prisoner and allies gaining penalties for killing is a problem though, unless your group wants things that way.

I dunno, I was planning on taking it for my unarmed variant swordsage, though he could still wear Mithril Shirts and gain wisdom to AC with no check penalty, the feat would add a lot more. I think I'd leave it to monks though, my feat slots are pretty tied up on getting into Master of Nine, after which I can get some devoted spirit manuevers to keep me alive.

Kioran
2007-04-27, 05:18 PM
This is overpowered, definitely is - but if someone needs help with german-english translation, IŽd probably be able to help.

P.S.: Yes, that site is indeed german

brian c
2007-04-27, 05:20 PM
Actually, if you took Vow of Poverty at level 1 you get a bonus exalted feat, then at level 2 and every even level thereafter. It doesn't show it in the chart, but the text says it. So you could get it by level 2 if you took vow of non-violence as a bonus at level 1.

True, true; I've played VoP characters before but I wasn't really thinking about it, just noticing that Fax didn't mention taking Vow of Nonviolence. So yes, you could get all of those benefits by level 3, for AC = 10 + 8 (unarmored defense prof) + 6 (vow of peace) + 3 (poverty Exalted bonus) + wis + dex. With 18s in wis and dex (+2 dex from strongheart), that's 35 AC at 3rd level



Hey, if you are going vow, you are probably a monk already. You can still deal non-lethal damage, and at no attack penalty. I think the needing to take everything prisoner and allies gaining penalties for killing is a problem though, unless your group wants things that way.

I dunno, I was planning on taking it for my unarmed variant swordsage, though he could still wear Mithril Shirts and gain wisdom to AC with no check penalty, the feat would add a lot more. I think I'd leave it to monks though, my feat slots are pretty tied up on getting into Master of Nine, after which I can get some devoted spirit manuevers to keep me alive.

This is off-topic, but I'll digress for a moment. The problem here, and with Vow of Peace in general, is that your allies aren't allowed to hurt anyone either (actually from Vow of Nonviolence). If you have a whole party all taking those two feats, well fine then. It would be different from most D&D experiences, but it could be really fun and you have a bunch of AC.

Deel
2007-04-27, 05:24 PM
36, 1 more from Strongheart Halfling size. Yeah, and it just scales with VoP/Unarmored Master from there. I'd say if it was used it definitely needs to be made into an armor bonus.

Flawless
2007-04-27, 05:32 PM
It's nor really broken and the sense that it breakes the game. It's just more powerful than most other combat oriented feats which makes it difficult to use in an actual game. You will get unarmoured character all the way. But still it helps meleers and gives virtually nothing to batman. CoDzilla is a problem, though.

Isomenes
2007-04-27, 05:37 PM
Am I missing something, or is it the case that nowhere in this thread is the feat actually named?

Dhavaer
2007-04-27, 07:02 PM
Am I missing something, or is it the case that nowhere in this thread is the feat actually named?

The builds named it. Unarmed Defence Proficiency (Master). Or, you could just look at the link in the OP.

Fax Celestis
2007-04-27, 07:16 PM
IBut still it helps meleers and gives virtually nothing to batman. CoDzilla is a problem, though.

Are you kidding? What wizard ever wears armor? Every one ever would be taking this.

brian c
2007-04-27, 07:31 PM
Are you kidding? What wizard ever wears armor? Every one ever would be taking this.

Any wizard would definitely take at least one or two of these feats, and probably the third depending on how many metamagic feats they want. Lvel 20 wizard gets 7 feats, +1 if human (or strongheart halfling), and 4 more metamagic/item creation feats. If you take all 3 Unarmored Defense Proficiency, then you still have 8 or 9 feats, so that should be plenty.

Matthew
2007-04-28, 10:46 PM
Looks broken to me, but for a Low Magic Campaign it might be okay. I know a quick and dirty Defence Bonus Variant in Low Magic Games is [Base AC = 10 + BAB], which isn't much different.

Latronis
2007-04-28, 11:40 PM
Are you kidding? What wizard ever wears armor? Every one ever would be taking this.

wait weren't you the one arguing about a wizard in +1twilight mithril feycraft breastplate :smallbiggrin:

brian c
2007-04-29, 12:37 AM
wait weren't you the one arguing about a wizard in +1twilight mithril feycraft breastplate :smallbiggrin:

This feat would give you a much better AC than that though; if these feats are allowed, there's no reason for a wizard to ever wear any armor.

Latronis
2007-04-29, 02:06 AM
There's already little reason for a wizard to wear armour :smallbiggrin:

kolvar
2007-05-02, 05:10 AM
Mhm, thought I had written something yesterday, but somehow can't find it.
being the cause of this discussion (because it is my site):
- the feats are from 7th Sea (i.e. they are from a published book. But don't ask me which one it is) and where suggested to me on the EnWorld-boards when I was looking for a kind of Armor Class progression like the one given in the Wheel of Time rpg (pre-Unearthe Arcana).
- Yes, they are powerful and I argued on the boards with some people about exactly this problem (being the one thinking of them as to powerful).
The arguments, that convinced me, where, that a well armored Fighter on 20th level with the most powerfull armor and the most powerfull Shield available, would not only have a similar AC but get some extra powers from armor and shield, that a character with UAD would not get (well, never thought about other AC-granting magic items actually, because my campaign is rather short on magic items (and the bloody characters even either refrain from corpse-robbing or pass by those doors to the treasure rooms with all the nice equipment I handpicked for them ... grrrrr)). Another arguement made, was the loss of the feats for fast qualification for PrCs.
Missing those min-maxers in my groups that own every book and being the only one with a vague overview over published books, I rarely come to the problem, that the UAD-feats are maxed out. There are just to many nice feats to chose from and somehow my players got their own concepts that does not fit these feats. It is taken less often than one might think (actually, as far as I can overlook it at the time being, only two player-characters from about 30+ took this feat and as far as I know, not one took all three).
Maybe, if I had been more into powerbuilding at the time, knowing of all the possible feats etc (I am not sure if Book of Exalted Deeds was even published at the time), I would not have allowed them.

Darkflame
2007-05-02, 07:57 AM
As has been stated above, these feats were created for the Swashbuckling Adventures game (not 7th Sea though the two games did share the same setting).

It was therefore designed to be used in a setting where armour did not tend to be used which is why is was open to everybody.

It works fine in the environment it is intended in. It doesn't in any other.

Chris

kolvar
2007-05-02, 08:26 AM
As has been stated above, these feats were created for the Swashbuckling Adventures game (not 7th Sea though the two games did share the same setting).

Chris

sorry, my mistake.

Darkflame
2007-05-02, 08:40 AM
sorry, my mistake.

I wouldn't worry about it.

It's only really a sticking point to those who are a fan of one or the other.

Similarly to L5R, the d10 crowd thought that the d20 version was awful.

Chris

kolvar
2007-05-02, 08:49 AM
Yes, I know, but I wasn't sure and got the nagging feeling, that it wasn't 7th Sea and could not remember any other name, which was the reason I took a look with google and at enworld but could not find anything, that confirmed my suspicions (even finding a 7th Sea web-page with the image I remembered from the book's cover).

kolvar
2007-05-02, 10:01 AM
I will probably change these feats for my campaign in the following way (thanks to all the input)

UAD 1
Prerequ: BAB +1

UAD 2
Prerequ: BAB +4

UAD 3
Prerequ: BAB +12

Monk can take UAD 1 on first, UAD 2 on second and UAD 3 on sixth level ignoring the BAB-prerequ (but not the other prerequs)

the bonus is lost when helpless, disabled, Confused or stunned (but not when flat-footed, because it has become rather easy to become flat-footed since the ToB and the Complete Scoundrel (Skill Tricks))

The AC-improvement becomes a block-bonus to AC that does not stack with armor- or shield-bonuses and will be negated by wearing armor or shield.



Any comments?

Darkflame
2007-05-02, 10:33 AM
Personally I would classify it as a Dodge Bonus, as that is was I believe it is intended to represent.

Chris

Fax Celestis
2007-05-02, 10:35 AM
Personally I would classify it as a Dodge Bonus, as that is was I believe it is intended to represent.

Chris

The problem there is that Dodge bonuses stack with other Dodge bonuses, so one could have truly ridiculous AC.

kolvar
2007-05-02, 12:04 PM
I think, the original intent was, that it is not a bonus at all, but a raise of the base AC.
On the other side, I was thinking, that it could be a "reflex"-bonus, that does not stack with dodge-bonuses but would stack with armor-bonus other than given by an actual armor (or shield ... which would be a shield-bonus, I know). That would make clear, that the bonus to AC comes from a kind of instinct, that still allows for the bonus to apply to flat-footed and touch situations (where armor would actually hurt). It would overrule dodge, because dodge is an aware action and someone with these feats would just rely on his guts (and later on on some kind of supernatural/extraordinary guts)