An Eldritch Knight-like Archetype on the Rogue Chassis?

[Ziegander]

So, I was considering asking a DM to allow me to use the Eldritch Knight spell list with a Rogue character, but that got me to thinking about the archetype features that should go with it. Obviously, the Arcane Trickster features are now defunct, but the Eldritch Knight features don't seem super appropriate either. Any ideas?

[Ardantis]

The mage hand shenanigans seem appropriate.

I'd give the ability that sneak attack applies to damaging cantrips, and later damaging spells.

EDIT Make that spells with attack rolls

EDIT EDIT And sneak attack rules must still be met

[djreynolds]

I made an Eldrich knight, arcane trickster, wizard. 6/6/8 He's not bad. We role up 20th level characters for fun. I'll never get to play him. We are still level 3!!!! in our real campaign. But adding the wizard helps with spell selection of the other two archetypes.

[numerek]

The mage hand shenanigans seem appropriate.

I'd give the ability that sneak attack applies to damaging cantrips, and later damaging spells.

EDIT Make that spells with attack rolls

EDIT EDIT And sneak attack rules must still be met

Sneak attack on cantrips and other spells is problematic because of eldritch blast and scorching ray.

Normally a rogue needs to multiclass 5 levels to get a third sneak attackable attack(two weapon fighting or crossbow master gets them to 2), this would allow with one feat to get 4 sneak attackable attacks that deal d10 force damage to boot and 5 sneak attackable attacks with scorching ray, could do multiclassing to up that.

You could do the twin spell thing and make it so that it can only apply to spells that can only target one creature or how ever they worded the errata. Though you would still be out damaging the other rogues and be giving a range of damage types on top of still being able to use a weapon if it is better in a situation. Up to 4d10 vs 2d6 both plus sneak attack damage and one uses bonus action, d10 if you uses heavy crossbow which you would need to get proficiency in. and most cantrips come with a rider effect.

[numerek]

I don't see any problem with the arcane trickster abilities and changing the schools. Just keep that one of your cantrip choices has to be mage hand.

I do see many of the same problems I listed in my previous post if you try to move war magic and improved war magic over to a rogue archetype. Because a rogue only gets one attack currently (unless two weapon fighting or crossbow master) and the war magic abilities would give it a cantrip on top of its one attack.

The arcane charge ability doesn't really translate to rogue well because they don't have a short rest ability to tie it to. You could maybe apply it to casting a spell but that would probably be more times a day than a fighter uses action surge. probably want to rename it as arcane escape or something like that.

The other abilities is fine, it is very similar to an arcane trickster ability.

[numerek]

Sneak attack on cantrips and other spells is problematic because of eldritch blast and scorching ray.

Normally a rogue needs to multiclass 5 levels to get a third sneak attackable attack(two weapon fighting or crossbow master gets them to 2), this would allow with one feat to get 4 sneak attackable attacks that deal d10 force damage to boot and 5 sneak attackable attacks with scorching ray, could do multiclassing to up that.

You could do the twin spell thing and make it so that it can only apply to spells that can only target one creature or how ever they worded the errata. Though you would still be out damaging the other rogues and be giving a range of damage types on top of still being able to use a weapon if it is better in a situation. Up to 4d10 vs 2d6 both plus sneak attack damage and one uses bonus action, d10 if you uses heavy crossbow which you would need to get proficiency in. and most cantrips come with a rider effect.

Although this doesn't follow the simplicity of 5e I would say you could add one of the above benefits, like your sneak attack damage type could be the damage type of one of your cantrips, or you can apply one of your cantrip's rider effects when you get a sneak attack, Perhaps you could replace some of your sneak attack damage dice with your cantrip damage dice so say at level 9 you get war magic and you have the fire bolt cantrip so your sneak attack damage would be 2d10+3d6vs5d6

[Easy_Lee]

One popular option is to let both ATs and EKs choose their two schools, rather than having them chosen for them. The AT's schools are both very good choices, but picking schools opens up more character options.

One other option which I've suggested before is to allow Mage Hand to perform a sneak attack. Have it carry a dagger or similar and fly off to stab the target. It can use your own spell attack bonus and sneak attack, basically being a ranged cantrip for ATs.

[Slipperychicken]

My DM doesn't even use the school restriction for EK or AT spells (i.e. Pick any off the wizard list). I haven't noticed any problems with it so far, since an EK will generally pick fighting-related spells regardless.

[Ziegander]

Sneak attack on cantrips and other spells is problematic because of eldritch blast and scorching ray.

Normally a rogue needs to multiclass 5 levels to get a third sneak attackable attack(two weapon fighting or crossbow master gets them to 2), this would allow with one feat to get 4 sneak attackable attacks that deal d10 force damage to boot and 5 sneak attackable attacks with scorching ray, could do multiclassing to up that.

You could do the twin spell thing and make it so that it can only apply to spells that can only target one creature or how ever they worded the errata. Though you would still be out damaging the other rogues and be giving a range of damage types on top of still being able to use a weapon if it is better in a situation. Up to 4d10 vs 2d6 both plus sneak attack damage and one uses bonus action, d10 if you uses heavy crossbow which you would need to get proficiency in. and most cantrips come with a rider effect.

You're really worried about these extra chances to sneak attack, aren't you? Isn't that what getting class features is supposed to do for you? Give you new options that you didn't have before? Yes, it would be powerful if you took a feat to learn Eldritch Blast. We're learning that Eldritch Blast is a strong option for lots of builds. But Scorching Ray? You're worried about something the theoretical "Eldritch Knight Rogue" could only ever do once per day? Sheesh.

To those saying, "Just keep the Arcane Trickster features and swap the schools:" that just doesn't seem thematically appropriate. It's not exactly a trickster anymore if it's throwing out blast and buff spells now is it? My goal is not just to play an Arcane Trickster with evocation spells, it's really to create a whole new Rogue archetype.

Anyway, I like the idea of getting Sneak Attack to spell attack rolls, but I don't want it to totally eclipse the Rogue's weapon attack options either... Maybe at 9th level the archetype can Sneak Attack with one of the cantrips it learned from the Wizard spell list (prevents Eldritch Blast abuse) once every short rest and at 17th it can Sneak Attack with actual spells 1 + Int mod times per long rest?

And what then for levels 3 and 13?

[djreynolds]

That crazy multiclass of rogue fighter wizard works. Just pick 3 levels at a time for the first two and then add wizard. You get sneak attack and four expertise for arcane trickster level 6. Take 6 eldritch knight for second attack and two ASI and then wizard 8. 6 levels of spells. Max dex and int. Old fighter/magic user/ thief who can sneak, fight, and blast. Going fighter first gives con saves too. Grab magic initiate.

[Safety Sword]

My DM doesn't even use the school restriction for EK or AT spells (i.e. Pick any off the wizard list). I haven't noticed any problems with it so far, since an EK will generally pick fighting-related spells regardless.

That would probably make the bookkeeping easier too!

Not having spells by school in the PHB is a PITA *shakes fist at sky angrily*

[TheOOB]

The EK and AT are both really powerful archtypes that are way more broad and deep than any archtypes, so I'd be reluctant to give them any more power or versatility. Part of why they're balanced is the spell schools they mostly use do things those classes already do well(EK spells deal damage and make them hard to kill, which fighters do already, and AT make them sneaky and manipulative which rogues can already do).

[Easy_Lee]

The EK and AT are both really powerful archtypes that are way more broad and deep than any archtypes, so I'd be reluctant to give them any more power or versatility. Part of why they're balanced is the spell schools they mostly use do things those classes already do well(EK spells deal damage and make them hard to kill, which fighters do already, and AT make them sneaky and manipulative which rogues can already do).

Not really true. Both schools for both classes include a wide variety of new ability choices, and both allow one to pick some spells from other schools. The thought that changing schools would somehow make one archetype better is strictly conjecture, dependent on the assumption that some spell schools are better than others.

[TheOOB]

Not really true. Both schools for both classes include a wide variety of new ability choices, and both allow one to pick some spells from other schools. The thought that changing schools would somehow make one archetype better is strictly conjecture, dependent on the assumption that some spell schools are better than others.

I'd agree that there is plenty of variety in those schools, but I would also say some spell schools are defiantly better than others(I don't feel the schools were balanced against one another at all). Also some spells can be better for some characters than others. Haste is stronger if a fighter is casting it than a wizard, but scorching ray is stronger for a wizard than a fighter(as the fighters attack is already pretty good).