Warlock's pact had been slain

[sunnylht]

What happens if the entity which made a pact with a warlock is dead? Will the warlock lose all power?

[Chaosvii7]

What happens if the entity which made a pact with a warlock is dead? Will the warlock lose all power?

I would figure it's up to DM interpretation, really. I'd actually reason that the Warlock has a hefty inheritance to be obtained upon their patron's death, probably through an adventure that takes the party to the domain of their Patron to claim it.

[Naanomi]

Depends on the nature of the individual pact I'd guess...
-a devil's pact (and some archfey) probably is inherited by his superior/replacement; trading on master for another. Warlock keeps his powers
-all old ones and some archfey are godlike in power, killing one is a reality altering event... If they can even be 'killed' in a meaningful way at all. Warlock keeps his powers
-most demons and some archfey are killed and the power stops. Warlock loses powers maybe, or just can't advance them until a new power source is found. Depends on the pact specifics (if a demon soul was bound to yours, you are probably fine... If your fey lord visited you for conjugal visits in your sleep and passed some mojo in the process you may be in trouble quickly)

[Shining Wrath]

First the obligatory quote.


That is not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even death may die

For most patrons death is either impossible or a temporary inconvenience while they reboot.

For the rest - a pact is a contract. The fine print probably specifies what happens. If the patron is a member of a group, someone probably inherits.

For those patrons who are both mortal and have no heir, I'd the the Warlock is powerless until they find a new patron, or a new patron finds them - a high level Warlock might be viewed as a prize worth competing for. Imagine Asmodeus and Cthulhu arm wrestling for the chance to obtain a warlock's services. :smallbiggrin:

[Ramshack]

Could be fun to maybe add a mechanic like the sorcerer's wild magic to the warlock spells until their patron returns, or the warlock makes a new pact, or otherwise is able to restore order. Could be fun to switch things up.

[FatherLiir]

It really depends on the nature of the campaign. For example in Tyranny of Dragons if your DM uses the "Devilish Demmands" encounter the bone lord devil Lord Vommler states that if he is slain he is just reformed in the 9 hells.

There was a series of articles back during 3.5e written about the Seelie and Unseelie courts, the nature of the queens and how they can be functionally immortal or just very long lived, and how there is an order of succession to every noble house and to the throne itself. To me if you made a pact to a Faire Queen, her successor could simply offer you the same deal.

The GOO are unfathomable and to nearly glimpse them is to risk madness. These are dead planets and beings beyond every law of the universe. Cthulhu sleeps in the house at R'ygleh etc. etc. etc. I haven't read enough Lovecraft to try and imagine how it would even be possible.


Above all, this is all open to DM interpretation and what they want to do. RAW; a warlock can't lose its abilities like a Paladin. Perhaps instead of wanting to back out of its pact, the patron instead wants their ex warlock to suffer sending displacer beasts, gibbering mourners, and caiphons after the one who broke their deal to watch them get shredded limb from limb. Again this is all up tour DM but it has much potential and flavor :)

[Seruvius]

As others above have stated, a lot depends on DM interpretation.
I personally like the idea of some form of quest related to it. The patron is dead/dying and the warlock now faces a quandary. Try and bargain with the successor? Try a different patron? What if changing patron will arouse the anger of the previous one when it inevitably comes back? Maybe they can play safe and stay with the current patron, but will be of lesser power for a time. You could flesh it out into a RP and mechanical quandary for the PC. Say if you had a pact with the Archfey Titania and she disappears. THe warlock establishes contact with her consort, Oberon, and finds out that Titania has been overthrown and been supplanted by Lurue the Unicorn Queen. Do you try and switch to Lurue? Do you stay with Titania and bide your time, hoping that she will return with the help of her consort Oberon? If you do change sides to Lurue your powerswill return, but getting on the wrong side of a vengeful queen of the fey? Choices choices.
You could even make a whole campaign around this sort of thing. Maybe Titania has been driven out of the Feywild and is wadnering the material plane as say a level 20 druid who is upsetting the balance between the planes with her power. Maybe not even on purpose, but simply by her presence. Does the party try and confront her? do they try and aid her in her return to her twilight realm? How do the druids of the material plane react to her? Or the other Sylvan creatures such as the elves or dryads?

[Slipperychicken]

It's a contract, so I'll second inheritance. Whoever the second-in-command is (or whatever comparably-strong entity is best positioned) probably takes over the deal, with the terms remaining the same. The warlock still gets his powers, but his "new" patron may issue slightly different commands to reflect the change in leadership.

[Hawkstar]

The GOO are unfathomable and to nearly glimpse them is to risk madness. These are dead planets and beings beyond every law of the universe. Cthulhu sleeps in the house at R'ygleh etc. etc. etc. I haven't read enough Lovecraft to try and imagine how it would even be possible. Cthulhu? Simple. Steve wrestled him to death.

[Slipperychicken]

Cthulhu? Simple. Steve wrestled him to death.

Even easier: One of the other GOOs kicked him out of his house and took a nap there in his place.

[VoxRationis]

There is a tendency in certain circles to do nothing which ever hurts a PC ever, so many might say that the warlock keeps his powers via one contrived reason or another. But really, I'd say that few of the beings you'd make a pact with have someone standing to automatically inherit in a "legitimate" fashion—certainly not the Great Old Ones and probably not the fey. Lawful fiends have the greatest tendency for automatic replacement, except that the ones one would make a pact with are the higher-ups in the hierarchy—those who would replace them are rivals, usurping their domains outside the normal organizational scheme, and would be disinclined to continue granting power to those who had been consistently loyal tools of their enemies, when they could just find some new tool.
As for the argument that patrons might compete for claiming a particular high-level warlock, I'd say that that's unlikely. A warlock's power comes from their patron—their level is simply how much power had been granted for previous services rendered. If that power is taken away, the previously high-level warlock is little more than a schmuck with a slightly higher proficiency bonus than the average peasant.
Long story short, mooching off other beings for power carries risks with it, and the death of those other beings is one of those risks. If this wasn't an acceptable risk, you should have taken a different direction in life.

[Easy_Lee]

The patron already gave you warlock his power. Being on another plane or somewhere that the patron had no power foes not take away the warlock's power by RAW. So I would argue that a patron must explicitly strip the warlock of his power for the warlock to lose it. If the patron dies, then the warlock is free of the contract but still has the gifts given.

[VoxRationis]

Except that the power isn't something like a physical object, which can be given and remains in the same state thereafter unless otherwise noted. It's a continual provision of energy and effort.

[Xefas]

Here's an alternative option: Yes, but maybe the magic was inside them all along! (http://i.imgur.com/xu7WURe.jpg)

As in, let them start trading dead Warlock levels in for Sorcerer.

[Slipperychicken]

Except that the power isn't something like a physical object, which can be given and remains in the same state thereafter unless otherwise noted. It's a continual provision of energy and effort.

I'm AFB, but I'm pretty sure the books don't specify whether or not pact magic works like this.

We also have precedence of divine casters gaining power from ideals and personal conviction (i.e. It doesn't matter who or what a cleric is worshipping; even a dead god can do it), so warlocks could be riding that gravy-train too.

I do like the idea that a warlock still has the power he was given so far. Maybe he just can't gain more warlock levels until he finds a new patron to feed him more power.

[FatherLiir]

Cthulhu? Simple. Steve wrestled him to death.

Pssh, I was gonna say Old Man Henderson looked at him and he ran away. There isn't an Elder God that doesn't know what happened to Hastur, the King in Yellow. And that was over a misunderstanding

[Steampunkette]

Warlock power is not like cleric power. You don't pray to your patron each day and select new spells. And there is nothing in the class description or RAW about warlocks losing their powers.

Thus, you don't.

Instead the Patron is teaching you magic secrets. No patron, no new secrets.

[rollingForInit]

Long story short, mooching off other beings for power carries risks with it, and the death of those other beings is one of those risks. If this wasn't an acceptable risk, you should have taken a different direction in life.

This is true in real life, but it would be a pretty sad day for a player if somehow the Patron drops dead and the DM is like "You lose all your class levels, sorry". Like telling a fighter "Well, you just lost both your arms, bye".


In general ... Erin M. Evans' books in the Brimstone Angels series (and her Sundering book) are great for inspiration on how to deal with Warlocks. There, the power depends on the patron. Lose the patron, you lose your powers. I wouldn't use that myself as a DM (too cruel), but on the other hand, devils there are very keen getting good Warlocks. Some devils even collect specific families and bloodlines. And Warlocks strive to make more lucrative deals with new patrons as well. It's like a market, almost.

Personally, I'd work it out with my player from the start. Because this is something that should be known from the start. What happens if you disobey your patron, and what happens if the patron dies? Those aren't things that should be left as a surprise, because they might heavily affect whether or not a person wants to play a Warlock at all. Not everyone would enjoy having your class abilities depend on the choices you make. Unless my player really wanted to go that route, I'd say that a broken pact leaves the Warlock with their powers, but unable to progress in the class without finding a new patron and making a new deal. The other option would be to multiclass. If the pact ended because the contract was broken by the Warlock, I'd use that as a plot hook and have the patron seek out restitution, in some way. Make trouble for the character, etc.

[CantigThimble]

I might rule that the death of the patron ripples through his network of warlocks, permanently warping the magic it touches. All his warlocks are now wild magic sorcerers.

[VoxRationis]

This is true in real life, but it would be a pretty sad day for a player if somehow the Patron drops dead and the DM is like "You lose all your class levels, sorry". Like telling a fighter "Well, you just lost both your arms, bye".


I didn't say I'd actually do that in one of my games. I agree, it'd be incredibly unfair, just like it would be unfair to have the villain set off a controlled demolition of the dungeon the moment they get inside, crushing them all under a hundred thousand tons of rock. But if the situation did come about through some incredibly glaring player error (like the warlock casually listing his patron's weaknesses to his most hated enemy, or the players setting up such a trap, then knowingly allow the villain to seize control of it, and walk into the trap anyway), I'd enforce the appropriate consequences.

[Eriol]

First of all, I'm glad that you did not post this in the raw thread.

Secondly, it is entirely possible that the power you were given as a warlock as part of your pact is some type of mystical essence, a piece of the patron inside of you. Think Koch inside of Sheridan in Babylon 5. The same kind of thing, but the death of the patron doesn't mean that ALL of the patron is dead.

But again I agree that this is definitely a DM call. But some really cool things are possible.

[Steampunkette]

Bane and Cyric style!

Patron dies, a tiny part lives on in the warlock. Warlock reaches maximum potential of level 20, patron is reborn as the warlock is destroyed. Nice!

[Logosloki]

There are two styles of pacts mentioned in 'sworn and beholden' - The style of god and supplicant and the style of master and apprentice (which is mentioned as being the relationship that is more common between warlocks and their patron). In either case a warlock will either have to find a way to revive their master or to find a new master.

[rollingForInit]

But if the situation did come about through some incredibly glaring player error (like the warlock casually listing his patron's weaknesses to his most hated enemy, or the players setting up such a trap, then knowingly allow the villain to seize control of it, and walk into the trap anyway), I'd enforce the appropriate consequences.

But would that be an "incredible glaring player error"? In the forgotten realms literature, it's common practise to play your patron just like your patron plays you. Having the DM slam down after that and say that the powers are lost ... is just mean. A bit like how some DM's seem to love messing with Paladins and taking their powers away without discussing it with the player first.

Taking away a character's class abilities for more than a session or so (compared to being locked up for a while), should never be done without having made it clear with the player first, "If you do this you wreck your class". Now, if the player wants that to happen (maybe they want to MR anyway and that'd be a great story reason for it), then it's another matter entirely.

[Slipperychicken]

Long story short, mooching off other beings for power carries risks with it, and the death of those other beings is one of those risks. If this wasn't an acceptable risk, you should have taken a different direction in life.
This is true in real life, but it would be a pretty sad day for a player if somehow the Patron drops dead and the DM is like "You lose all your class levels, sorry". Like telling a fighter "Well, you just lost both your arms, bye".

I'm pretty sure real life doesn't have people who get magic laser-beams from the devil.


The point is that we really don't know the nature of these deals; does a warlock's power require constant effort from his patron, or does the warlock simply learn powers from the patron, which continue to function even after the patron is dead? The warlock fluff text often refers to a patron "teaching" magic to warlocks, invocations being lasting alterations to a warlock's being (PHB 105), and allowing them to learn secrets. If anything, those considerations combined with the fact that there's no "fall" mechanic for warlocks, there seems to be more evidence that once acquired, a warlocks' powers function independently of his patron.

[KorvinStarmast]

What happens if the entity which made a pact with a warlock is dead? Will the warlock lose all power? He goes on the 15 day disabled list or on injured reserve. :smallbiggrin:

[FatherLiir]

I'm pretty sure real life doesn't have people who get magic laser-beams from the devil.

I mean speak for yourself :)

On the rest of that note, we are also dealing with creatures, as a warlock, who do not get classified as nice or good. It's part of the reason I don't get the fluff for people who want to make pacts with Bahamut or an angel of some kind; im pretty sure that's called a cleric.

The fiend pacts can be as simple as "fine, break your word to me. Your soul is still mine" and then at the end of your life no matter what you did you still are their property because you made the contract. If the soul isn't what was offered up then it's up to the DM to decide the consequences, I think it could be fun to have a "on every new moon 19 hell hounds come after you and you alone" bit of personal story line.

The great old ones you literally risk going insane in just WITNISSING them, not to mention talking and dealing with (or stealing from) Hastur like entities. You could easily just go insane and one day wake up and everyone is a mind flayer or abeloth trying to devour you and really you are burning down an entire village because your mind has been taken by them.

The archfey pacts might even be worse. These are the ones after your body or heart. "Sleep for 100 years then and let's see how that makes you feel" ala rip van winkle. Or perhaps you get turned into a donkey because you are a proverbial one to your queen you sweared fealty to. Or even "you are now the target of the Wild Hunt" where every fey associated being is after you now for sport.


You don't "fall" because you broke your word, you pay the price. An oath does not equate to a contract.

[PoeticDwarf]

What happens if the entity which made a pact with a warlock is dead? Will the warlock lose all power?

He can't get stronger, until he's got a new pact. I think.

[CNagy]

The Patron/Warlock relationship is one that on it's face seems to be a one-way street of benefits for the Warlock. Sure, simply having the Patron gives the DM a hook to use for some adventure or quest, but the Warlock isn't required to make sacrifices or pay tribute of any kind. Seems like an odd sort of arrangement. These are the last beings that would give something away with virtually no strings attached--yet from a mechanical sense, this is not done because that would make Warlock the only class with high potential for coming under DM control. So if the Patrons are giving you power and not significantly charging you for it, it is because it is somehow beneficial for them that you hold on to a piece of it for a while.

Bane and Cyric have previously been mentioned, but I don't like the idea of any character becoming an incarnation of a higher power. That said, there is no reason that the Warlock (that all of the Warlocks of a given patron) couldn't be some sort of cosmic contingency plan against the Patron's own death. In such a scenario, Warlocks would keep their powers upon the death of their Patron, and the growth of their power would play a role in reviving the Patron.

[Kajorma]

Obviously a total GM call.

To me it would depend on how the being died.

Did it fade away into glitter and become one with the universe, like in the Golden Compass? I'd probably have the powers continue from an undefined source.
Was it slain by a rival that seeks to gain its power? I'd have the rival basically stealing all contracts associated with the being. The warlock would retain power, but would have a new, and very pissed off master.
Did it die in the chaos of a God/Elder war? Power would be gone. Maybe the warlock would die as well.

Did the warlock himself kill the elder who granted him power? First off, HOW?! ...Second off, anything is fair game here. Maybe the other warlocks and beings bound to the entity are now tied to the warlock instead. Maybe all power is gone, all those other warlocks know why, and are really pissed off. Maybe an opposing force comes into the power vacuum... and who knows what happens then? Maybe the warlock dies in the feedback loop. Maybe the warlock takes the place of the Elder. Really, anything.

Something like this can lead to many interesting RP paths. However, if the being died due to a story-arc that the players had no control over, and the GM says that the warlock is now powerless... that's just a **** move.
Unless this is something that had been agreed on as part of the story, just don't do it.

[CNagy]

Another thing to consider is that the perception of time in various planes of existence and to certain beings is not necessarily a constant. In theory, it could take decades for the death of a Patron to significantly affect those who use the power granted by it; a lifetime may pass for the servant in what the Patron transitions from life to death. In such a scenario, the only indications that the Patron no longer exists would be the that high level Warlock class feature (about requesting aid from your patron in the form of refreshing your spell slots) ceasing to function and no new Warlocks making pacts with that particular patron.

[ThermalSlapShot]

I bet with the Fiend or Great Old One there is a clause that has the Warlock die if the patron die.

This way if the Warlock causes the death of the patron then the joke is on them.

Fiend: Hurl Through Hell each round until death.

Great Old One: You become a thrall of the great beyond and do nothing until told to do otherwise...

[Easy_Lee]

I bet with the Fiend or Great Old One there is a clause that has the Warlock die if the patron die.

This way if the Warlock causes the death of the patron then the joke is on them.

Fiend: Hurl Through Hell each round until death.

Great Old One: You become a thrall of the great beyond and do nothing until told to do otherwise...

In the case of great old ones, the patron may not even be aware of the warlock IIRC. It's probably the easiest to RP (no orders) and hardest to kill (where does the old one even exist?).

[TheOOB]

Somethat that could slay a warlocks pact keeper would be pretty insane. Old One pacts are things that if anything are greater than a god, archfey may or may not be a fundamental building block of the world and tend to only play at being dead, and fiend lords and intrinsically tied to their home plane.

I'd say the warlock keeps their abilities, but may not be able to level up further without a new pact.

[GiantOctopodes]

In the case of great old ones, the patron may not even be aware of the warlock IIRC. It's probably the easiest to RP (no orders) and hardest to kill (where does the old one even exist?).

On the other hand, I like to think of it that the orders a Great Old One would give might be a little... off.

"Garanth, why are you collecting all the triangular rocks on this beach?"

"I need to collect 3,793 triangular rocks. This seemed like as good a place as any to start."

"But... why? I mean, where are you even going to put all of them? It's not like you can carry that many around with you."

"Look, I really don't want to talk about it right now."

And if you disobey their orders, in what ways will a Great Old One punish you? Since they exist outside our perceptions of time, might they punish you in advance for a task you will eventually fail to complete? I don't know, if I was a DM and I had a Great Old One Warlock, I'd have all sorts of fun.

(Note: Please don't take this to mean I'd punish the player for the choice, at all, I mean I think it could be really fun having crazy orders without logical cause or effect, and it could be absolutely terrifying if those started to look like they might be pieces of some overarching design.)

[Shining Wrath]

This does allow for a DM plot twist - the BBEG is a Warlock, so powerful she cannot be defeated. In fact, it's actually easier to conjure the patron, defeat their material plane form, and during the several days it takes the patron to recover from that defeat, the warlock's power is reduced, and the party may make a desperate attempt against the warlock while their pact holder is recovering.

[ronlugge]

This does allow for a DM plot twist - the BBEG is a Warlock, so powerful she cannot be defeated. In fact, it's actually easier to conjure the patron, defeat their material plane form, and during the several days it takes the patron to recover from that defeat, the warlock's power is reduced, and the party may make a desperate attempt against the warlock while their pact holder is recovering.

Thats... an idea full of awesomesauce.

[Sigreid]

This does allow for a DM plot twist - the BBEG is a Warlock, so powerful she cannot be defeated. In fact, it's actually easier to conjure the patron, defeat their material plane form, and during the several days it takes the patron to recover from that defeat, the warlock's power is reduced, and the party may make a desperate attempt against the warlock while their pact holder is recovering.

My interpretation of the fluff is that the warlock is not drawing power from the patron, but rather the patron is sharing secrets with the warlock. If I were GMing I would rule that the warlock doesn't loose anything he has, but would have to find a new patron to gain more warlock levels. YTMV (Your Table May Vary)