Throwing! How?

[Necrov]

So I confess, I've been attempting a mental exercise of late, inspired mostly by an item in the Magic Items Compendium for 3.5, Gloves of Endless Javelins.

This got me wondering, what is the most effective way to play a thrower build? Master Thrower seems a little... bland.

[AvatarVecna]

If you're asking for an effective build that can still be played in a real game, I'm sorry to say that thrown weapon builds are generally pretty lackluster: you either go full Hulking Hurler and break the game with thousands of d6s rolled per attack, or your just kinda mediocre for the majority of your career, only really "catching up" in the upper-middle levels. The big problem with thrown weapon combat is this: the only way you can make all of your iterative attacks in the same round with just a single weapon that's appropriately leveled for you is Bloodstorm Blade 4. The gloves you mentioned work fine for the lower levels, but when that enchantment becomes irrelevant, so too do the gloves. Bloodstorm Blade 4 basically just allows you to make ranged attacks with melee weapons using your melee attack roll for all your iterative attacks by throwing and re-throwing the same weapon...and that's the only way to do it, at least without some major caster intervention on your behalf. Long story short, you have to spend your money, your feats, your item slots, and your skill points just to become competitive in a terrible combat style. Don't get me wrong: there's ways to do well at thrown weapon combat, I've made builds that can perform well enough. But you'll always be better if, instead of throwing the sword at your enemy, you hit them with it in melee. Even archery is less resource-guzzling than thrown weapon combat, and archery is still considered terrible compared to melee (at least in PO; low TO can get some ridiculous archer builds).

This is one of the things I really like about Pathfinder: not only is ranged combat in general more relevant, but there's a magic item that teleports thrown weapons back to you as soon as the attack is over (allowing for iterative attacks with just one weapon), and there's tons of archetypes that focus on thrown weapon combat, making it actually competitive and a decent option, rather than being that thing you take when you want to optimize and play something terrible on purpose.

[Red Fel]

So I confess, I've been attempting a mental exercise of late, inspired mostly by an item in the Magic Items Compendium for 3.5, Gloves of Endless Javelins.

This got me wondering, what is the most effective way to play a thrower build? Master Thrower seems a little... bland.

Stormlord.

Your endless force javelins are now +3 Shocking, Thundering, Shocking Burst force javelins. Also, full divine caster progression, resistances, and a 1/day high-level SLA.

Otherwise, it's as AV said. Thrown weapon combat has even weaker support than ranged weapon combat, which is criminally underpowered even if you employ Hank's Energy Bow. PF gives more options and versatility, but as far as 3.5 goes, it's hard to call what you do with thrown weapons in 3.5 "effective."

[Rubik]

No javelins are involved, but...

Monk! (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=15474863#post15474863)

[prufock]

Bloodstorm Blade? (Tome of Battle)

[noob]

Maybe try boomerangs and take all the throwing skills(power throw,apply 1.5 times strength to throws,stunt with dd=10+damage(for boomerangs only))
and take ranged weapons feats like point blank shot and fast shots.

[nedz]

Stormlord.

Your endless force javelins are now +3 Shocking, Thundering, Shocking Burst force javelins. Also, full divine caster progression, resistances, and a 1/day high-level SLA.

Otherwise, it's as AV said. Thrown weapon combat has even weaker support than ranged weapon combat, which is criminally underpowered even if you employ Hank's Energy Bow. PF gives more options and versatility, but as far as 3.5 goes, it's hard to call what you do with thrown weapons in 3.5 "effective."

I built one of these once, on a Mystic Ranger chassis, albeit using a Quiver of Ehlonna; well actually multiple QoEs because they only hold 18 javelins and iterative attacks are a thing. I found it to be lacklustre though it worked much better with a Long Spear because of things like Combat Reflexes.

If you want a throwing build then go for a Ray-Sorcerer/Ray-Druid/Ray-Cleric or even a Warlock; or just take a reserve feat.

[noob]

I built one of these once, on a Mystic Ranger chassis, albeit using a Quiver of Ehlonna; well actually multiple QoEs because they only hold 18 javelins and iterative attacks are a thing. I found it to be lacklustre though it worked much better with a Long Spear because of things like Combat Reflexes.

If you want a throwing build then go for a Ray-Sorcerer/Ray-Druid/Ray-Cleric or even a Warlock; or just take a reserve feat.

The question is not should the op use thrown weapons it is how to do a good thrown weapons build and it is really hard.
(one cool thing with stunting boomrang is that if you have a sneak attack you have a good chance of stunning your opponent and then you have the occasion of doing more sneak attacks)

[mabriss lethe]

The atlatl found in sandstorm is often an under-appreciated weapon for throwers. It lets you increase your damage/ shenanigans potential by allowing you to enchant both the atlatl and the ammunition separately. Something throwers normally don't have access to.

[Jiruharudo]

My coin in this hat is a Dragon fire inspiration bard, then a dip in master thrower maybe get into Dread pirate for 2 weapon fighting, inspire bonuses and quikdraw which you'll "need" anyway.

That way you can (if you optimize the inspire courage/dragonfire) throw them with xd6 and at least 2 at a time per attack. (also, your weapon wielding allies will enjoy the buff)

I always likes the throwing char build, but its a bugger how a pure warlock will wipe the floor with it..

I'd love to see someone come up with a nice build!

[bekeleven]

Friend, you're looking for the Iaijutsu Katana Chucker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134276-3-5-Iaijutsu-Katana-Chucker).

[nedz]

Friend, you're looking for the Iaijutsu Katana Chucker (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?134276-3-5-Iaijutsu-Katana-Chucker).

Oh Slashing Melee weapons are easy: Sculpt Spell Whirling Blade.

[AvatarVecna]

The atlatl found in sandstorm is often an under-appreciated weapon for throwers. It lets you increase your damage/ shenanigans potential by allowing you to enchant both the atlatl and the ammunition separately. Something throwers normally don't have access to.

See also: slings, from the player's handbook. Not quite the same, I know, but still something worth mentioning in that vein...

[paranoidbox]

The atlatl found in sandstorm is often an under-appreciated weapon for throwers. It lets you increase your damage/ shenanigans potential by allowing you to enchant both the atlatl and the ammunition separately. Something throwers normally don't have access to.

You mean, like a bow, where you can enchant the bow and the ammunition seperately?
Also, just pointing out that, unlike the sling, the atlatl has no clause that says you add your strength modifier to damage. The only thing it says is that the weapon is a cross between a thrown weapon and a projectile weapon which is then followed by a paragraph of fluff.

[Necrov]

You mean, like a bow, where you can enchant the bow and the ammunition seperately?
Also, just pointing out that, unlike the sling, the atlatl has no clause that says you add your strength modifier to damage. The only thing it says is that the weapon is a cross between a thrown weapon and a projectile weapon which is then followed by a paragraph of fluff.

I think with regards to the atlatl, the poster was referring specifically to it being a unique thrown, not ranged as a whole.


I find it hard to believe that there's no way to do throwing effectively at all, without resorting to cheese. True though that 3.5 does under appreciate ranged combat, and indeed non-spell casting in general.

[AvatarVecna]

I think with regards to the atlatl, the poster was referring specifically to it being a unique thrown, not ranged as a whole.


I find it hard to believe that there's no way to do throwing effectively at all, without resorting to cheese. True though that 3.5 does under appreciate ranged combat, and indeed non-spell casting in general.

As I've already mentioned, slings can also do this. Slings get Str mod to damage, while Atlatl's do not; conversely, Atlatl's have triple damage on criticals, while slings only get double damage. Now, I haven't run the numbers yet, but my general gut feeling says the sling will have better damage when all other things are kept equal. The big problem martial characters usually have is that they're ****ed without spells, and they're extra-****ed without magic items. The reason it's so frustrating is that magicians can, without fail, do anything martials can better and cooler.

The only way to make multiple attacks in a single round with only one enchanted weapon that you can enhance as you level up is Bloodstorm Blade 4, and that kicks in at, at the earliest, level 9. At level 8, a halfway decent archer is getting three attacks per round at a high attack bonus and a decent damage bonus; at level 8, a thrown weapon master is still only getting one attack per round with their best weapon, and they still have to take one more level of Bloodstorm Blade before they can take the absolutely necessary Master Thrower. The only completely martial thrower that isn't terrible is a Hulking Hurler, and that's because they have a cheap cheat that turns them into the ultimate DPR machine against anything within 50 ft with even just a barebones attempt at Carrying Capacity Optimization. And even then, that Hulking Hurler is helpless against casters, because the HH only gets one attack per round, and Wings of Cover is a thing. Also, that Cleric or Druid going into Stormlord is still far better, because they automatically enhance their limitless javelins, and they have full divine casting to boot.

If one was to heavily optimize a thrown weapons build, they could make it comparable with other ranged builds at the high end of the build, but slogging through the lower levels to get there is a ****ing chore, and often just not worth it. Without heavy optimization, it can't really compete with other ranged builds, and melee builds blow it out of the water...and even the best uberchargers are still crap compared to casters.

[Rubik]

That's why I like my monk thrower build. Not only can you stack weapon abilities like a M.O.F.O.* for relatively cheap, but you're throwing your entire body, meaning you never have to draw more throwing weapons, never lose your ammo, and you have a movement mode akin to flight -- and the more attacks you have, the farther and faster you can move in a round. And since you're enhancing your own body, you can start tossing on oddball things like ghost touch for cheap at-will incorporeality and exit wounds so you can burst through enemies screaming "OH YEAH!" like some grotesque amalgamation of the Kool-Aid Man and Jason Voorhees.




*Massively Overpowered Fist of Obliteration

[mabriss lethe]

As I've already mentioned, slings can also do this. Slings get Str mod to damage, while Atlatl's do not;

Actually, they should gain strength to damage. While it's true that it isn't spelled out in the atlatl's text entry, it *is* spelled out in other rules and reinforced by the weapon's text.

Emphasis mine:


Atlatl: An atlatl is a cross between a thrown weapon
and a projectile weapon. It uses a flat, thin board made
of wood or antler, ranging from 1 to 3 feet long. One
end is held in the hand while the butt of a light spear,
2 to 3 feet long, is placed in a groove at the other
end. At the end of the groove is a raised spur or pin
to hold the bottom of the spear in place. You hold
the loaded spear and handle end of the atlatl in the
same hand. With a sidearm or overhead throw, you
propel the spear with a force far greater than that
of a hand-thrown spear. An atlatl often has a carved
stone weight attached to the board’s underside, and
many feature a thong of hide or cord to attach to
the hand.

While you've addressed the first part of the rules declaring it a thrown-ranged hybrid, there is more to the description. It spells out that the weapon is thrown later in the text. Combine that with the basic rules for thrown weapons from the SRD.


The wielder applies his or her Strength modifier to damage dealt by thrown weapons (except for splash weapons).

[AvatarVecna]

Actually, they should gain strength to damage. While it's true that it isn't spelled out in the atlatl's text entry, it *is* spelled out in other rules and reinforced by the weapon's text.

Emphasis mine:



While you've addressed the first part of the rules declaring it a thrown-ranged hybrid, there is more to the description. It spells out that the weapon is thrown later in the text. Combine that with the basic rules for thrown weapons from the SRD.

Firstly, it's a thrown/projectile hybrid, and projectile weapons don't add Str to damage unless they have a specific rule trumping that general rule. The sling is also a thrown/projectile hybrid weapon (although it's not referred to as such), and has a specific rule that allows it to add Str mod to damage; similarly, crossbows and standard bows don't add Str mod to damage, being projectile weapons, but composite bows exist as a specific exception to the general rule. The atlatl is in part a projectile weapon; unlike slings and composite bows, it possesses no explicit exception to that general rule; the part you're quoting is the only indication that it was intended to. I'm not saying I disagree, it should add Str mod to damage, but a strict reading of RAW shows that it does not, especially when compared to the sling, which operates on similar principles and possesses the specific exception. This is, in part, why it doesn't see much use in online discussion: it's not that it's from a relatively unknown splatbook, it's that the nature of its damage is debatable, and nobody cares enough to debate it because the sling does the exact same thing and its damage isn't very clear cut.

As a side note, I'd also like to point out that this same fluff text claims the atlatl can hurl its ammunition with greater force than a spear can be thrown, and yet by comparing the statistics of these two weapons, it deals less damage even if it does add your Str mod; similarly, however, it has larger range increments than normal spears. This shows the fluff text to at least be arguably inconsistent with the weapon's capabilities, making it a debatably poor ruler for the weapon's intentions. I'd also like to point out that the sling does have move action reloading, while the atlatl is not listed as having a reload time, that just means it falls under the general rules for reloading projectile weapons (I think...).

Regardless, none of this really matters: whether the atlatl adds your Str mod to the damage or not, whether it gets free action reloading or not, whether it was intended to have a higher damage die or not, the fact remains that it is a terrible weapon, because it makes you mechanically equivalent to firing a bow...except the bow has greater range and a higher damage die, so unless the atlatl allows Str mod to damage (and your Str score is particularly high), you're better off using a bow. And even if you can work your way around that, it still doesn't change the fact that ranged combat in general is terrible compared to melee. And even if you can work your way around that, it still doesn't change the fact that weapon combat in general is mitigated and outperformed by low-level magic at all by the highest levels of martial character optimization.

[AvatarVecna]

That's why I like my monk thrower build. Not only can you stack weapon abilities like a M.O.F.O.* for relatively cheap, but you're throwing your entire body, meaning you never have to draw more throwing weapons, never lose your ammo, and you have a movement mode akin to flight -- and the more attacks you have, the farther and faster you can move in a round. And since you're enhancing your own body, you can start tossing on oddball things like ghost touch for cheap at-will incorporeality and exit wounds so you can burst through enemies screaming "OH YEAH!" like some grotesque amalgamation of the Kool-Aid Man and Jason Voorhees.




*Massively Overpowered Fist of Obliteration

That monk build is absolutely obscene. I love it. Also, I'd like to point out that the best thrown weapon ever is, in fact, the shuriken...as long as you don't actually throw it.

[ekarney]

I have a +2LA build that I'd designed as a bulldozer, and eventually redesigned as a pouncer.
I'll try and adapt it for thrown though. Keep in mind it's a little cheesy so you may wish to change it around. You're looking at LA +1 at the minimum because of large size so I'll type up 3 variations high cheese, necessary cheese and minimal cheese.

Race: Water Orc/Neanderthal/Goliath
Templates: Half Ogre, Half Minotaur, Wild, Feral +2LA/Half Ogre OR Half Minotaur +1 LA/None +1LA
*Build: Fighter 2/Barbarian 5/Hulking Hurler 3/War Hulk 10

Feats: Point Blank Shot, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (With a thrown weapon), Cleave, Fling Enemy, Fling Ally, pick up improved unarmed strike at some point too.
For bonus fun, get some Adamantium spiked gauntlets for punching through walls,


Edit: I forgot to factor in LA, Remove maybe 1 level of fighter and barbarian or maybe 2 levels of barbarian, I'm not sure.

[paranoidbox]

Actually, they should gain strength to damage. While it's true that it isn't spelled out in the atlatl's text entry, it *is* spelled out in other rules and reinforced by the weapon's text.

Emphasis mine:



While you've addressed the first part of the rules declaring it a thrown-ranged hybrid, there is more to the description. It spells out that the weapon is thrown later in the text. Combine that with the basic rules for thrown weapons from the SRD.

AvatarVecna said it. I, too, think the intention was to mimic the sling, and I would agree the strength mod should be added (and personally, if we're adjusting the rules anyway, I would then make the reload a move action just like the sling), but "should" isn't RAW. By simple reading of the text, it's not clear to me what is meant. A "cross between a thrown weapon and a projectile weapon" isn't an established term, so what does it mean? Where are the rules for this?

I would also like to mention that even if a DM were to rule the atlatl gets its strength modifier to damage, it's still a terrible weapon by sheer virtue of its ammunition, which costs 1gp and weighs 2lbs each. Reading the text and the table it's not mentioned these spears are regular spears (the weapon's damage seems to indicate they are not as well) and rather read like regular ammunition... which means they get destroyed after you fling them as per ammunition rules.

It's too bad though, I would love a good thrower build, but I don't think the atlatl-master is going to be it.

[Necrov]

I'm slowly becoming convinced that the best way to do throwing without cheese-mongering is the glove of endless javelins (to negate the ammunition problem, and arguably because they're 'force' they bypass a lot) combined with Stormlord to improve the weapon itself. Now... What you'd want to take to qualify for Stormlord is tricky.

[Necrov]

I'm currently leaning toward Favored Soul rather than cleric, on account of energy resistance, better saves and a greater (if more limited) spell freedom. Albeit I'm aware you couldn't take Stormlord until 6th level whereas a Cleric could do so at 5th.

[AvatarVecna]

I'm currently leaning toward Favored Soul rather than cleric, on account of energy resistance, better saves and a greater (if more limited) spell freedom. Albeit I'm aware you couldn't take Stormlord until 6th level whereas a Cleric could do so at 5th.

If you don't mind not having to most of the cleric list ever, Favored Soul is fine. Seriously, though, it's fine.

[Necrov]

The trade off I suppose to having a far more limited spell list, is being able to choose the spells you want for the situation immediately. And generally, more spells per level. It's the Sorceror vs Wizard debate.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

I would get Brutal Throw and dump Dex, and go Cloistered Cleric 1/ Scout 3/ Ranger 16 with the Elf domain, Knowledge Devotion, Travel Devotion, Swift Hunter, and the TWF fighting style for Ranger.

[nedz]

I'm currently leaning toward Favored Soul rather than cleric, on account of energy resistance, better saves and a greater (if more limited) spell freedom. Albeit I'm aware you couldn't take Stormlord until 6th level whereas a Cleric could do so at 5th.

Favored Soul does save you a feat though — well assuming you choose a deity with spear or javelin as their favoured weapon.

[Red Fel]

Favored Soul does save you a feat though — well assuming you choose a deity with spear or javelin as their favoured weapon.

Talos, the patron of the Stormlord class, has a variety of spears as his favored weapons. And since you have to have him as a patron anyway to take the class, that pretty much clinches it; Favored Soul of Talos, free Weapon Focus (spears). If your DM is willing to waive the patron requirement of the class, Hoar and Laogzed both have javelins as a favored weapon. In fact, Hoar's own weapon is a javelin of lightning, which is fairly poetic.

As an aside, one of my favorite things to do with a Stormlord is to use a Half-Elf with the Mark of Storms (assuming Dragonmarks are allowed). It's trivial to optimize the CL on the Control Winds SLA, which gives you a raging tornado almost two thousand feet in radius and height that lasts for three hours. Because of Stormlord's abilities, the winds not only don't effect you, they give you a continuous Fly effect. Downside, the winds neutralize ranged attacks, such as your javelins.

[Necrov]

Favored Soul does save you a feat though — well assuming you choose a deity with spear or javelin as their favoured weapon.

My sentiment exactly. So, for a Favoured Soul/Stormlord build, what feats do we recommend.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Favored Soul does save you a feat though — well assuming you choose a deity with spear or javelin as their favoured weapon.
You have to worship Talos, who has all spears as a favoured weapon, so that's not a problem. What is a problem is that Talos doesn't offer the War (Weapon Focus) or Dwarf (Great Fortitude) domains, and you can't refluff Ordained Champion to fit Talos, since he's CE. Sucks, normally domains really come through when it comes to feats :smallsigh:.

Ah, it's been mentioned already, shame on me for looking up gods with both War and Dwarf (that's half the FR dwarven pantheon, and none of them work with Stormlord).

[Warrnan]

A Zeus like deity could work just fine for a "lightning spear" good/neutral aligned deity. Thor would work too if your DM would let you reskin the force javelins as hammers but mechanically be the same in all respects. Flavor and appearance don't effect mechanics.

I seem to remember that OotS has thor as a dwarven diety.

[jiriku]

A soulknife with Free Draw can make full iteratives with self-enchanted thrown weapons. Soulknife is a terrible class, but there are various homebrew fixes, such as my soulcrafter class. Soulcrafter comes online as an effective thrower at level 2, and stays effective throughout its career. It doesn't cast, but has an enormous swiss army knife of useful options giving creative players endless versatility.

[nedz]

Talos doesn't exist in all settings but it's easy to adapt the PrC.