Traps OP?

[Shnigda]

Hey guys,
So, during a previous session, my rogue (level 3 at the time) was searching for traps and accidentally stepped on a pressure pad, instantly setting off a standard fireball trap from the SRD in that area (I wasn't allowed a save as it took up the whole area and was instantaneous, DM correct?).
Needless to say, my rogue almost got killed and couldn't do anything in the following encounter.
Having a look at the other traps, it seems like traps can pretty much kill any individual character of CR level or lower...
Are traps overpowered/under-CRed?

[Extra Anchovies]

Damage traps are boring and anti-fun. They have no place in any game.

Also, you would have gotten a save because Fireball always allows a save. Instantaneous just means the fireball doesn't stick around after it's dealt its damage. The effect filling the entire room doesn't matter, you still get a save.

[RolkFlameraven]

Not really, besides not only should you have gotten a save but you should have had a +1 on the check.

Trap Sense (Ex)

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

[Flickerdart]

The CR for a Fireball trap is 5, so you weren't really ready to be facing it yet.

[atemu1234]

Does the DM's fun count? I love me a couple poison traps. Makes the party Rogue feel useful. Well, Rogue / Wizard / PrC...

[ComaVision]

Does the DM's fun count? I love me a couple poison traps. Makes the party Rogue feel useful. Well, Rogue / Wizard / PrC...

I resent your biased statement.







My group uses a Rogue/Cleric/PrC.

[SinsI]

Damage traps are boring and anti-fun. They have no place in any game.

Depends on their use. As a standalone they are useless, but coupled with some monsters they are much more interesting.

If a goblin can trigger Fireball or Lightning Bolt trap to shoot at everyone in a long corridor, it can be extremely effective and require the party to find ways to either avoid it completely or to become temporarily immune to it.

[Ferronach]

If traps did not have the potential to seriously harm or even kill a player, there would be no point in them or in rogues (et. al.) investing ranks in disable device.
You would just send in the meat-shield and heal him/her up when their HP were starting to droop.

That being said, not every trap should be potentially lethal.

As a DM i try to use a variety of traps that keep the party from "zerging" through areas where I want them to spend a little time looking around.
I love hitting them with a big bad trap early on and then later have a simple trap that is so obvious and poorly designed that everyone who makes a passable search/spot can see it. The players then start panicing wondering where the "Real" trap is :smallamused:

I have found though that certain parties are better at dealing with some traps and worse at other types of traps.

I would suggest telling your party and DM that from now on you will be keeping your head on a swivel and ask that they give you room and time to check non combat areas out before they run in blindly.
Keep in mind that if the DM is good, you may not always have to disable/go through a trapped area as there is a less obvious but possibly safer way around.

[Darrin]

Required reading: Bad Trap Syndrome (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/90/). Also, Part 2 (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/).

In a nutshell: Don't make the PCs "search for traps". Make them obvious to spot. The most interesting part of the trap is watching the party interact with the trap to try and circumvent it. Otherwise, the DM is just inflicting an arbitrary "HP Tax" on the PCs.

In the OP's case: Yes, the CR 5 was overpowered for you at level 3. I'd want to ask the DM why he thought something like that was appropriate to put in, and if he adjusted the search/disarm DC to make sure it was something you actually had a chance to find and disarm.

[OldTrees1]

Let's presume the traps are accurately CR'd. A CR 5 fight is an easy fight(EL=ECL) for a party of 4 ECL 5 PCs. Frequently only 1 PC is engaging a trap. A CR 5 fight is a 50/50 fight(EL=ECL+4) against 1 ECL 5 PC. Therefore you should mentally add 4 to the CR of a trap to adjust for only 1 PC encountering it.

So a Fireball trap vs a single level 3 rogue is an EL = ECL + 6 encounter. Most of the time the rogue would be dead. (remember a Campaign Boss is usually an EL = ECL + 4 encounter)

[ComaVision]

Let's presume the traps are accurately CR'd. A CR 5 fight is an easy fight(EL=ECL) for a party of 4 ECL 5 PCs. Frequently only 1 PC is engaging a trap. A CR 5 fight is a 50/50 fight(EL=ECL+4) against 1 ECL 5 PC. Therefore you should mentally add 4 to the CR of a trap to adjust for only 1 PC encountering it.

So a Fireball trap vs a single level 3 rogue is an EL = ECL + 6 encounter. Most of the time the rogue would be dead. (remember a Campaign Boss is usually an EL = ECL + 4 encounter)

I disagree. The party should use 1/4 of their daily resources, for a CR = party level trap, healing the rogue and/or by-passing the trap.

Obviously that isn't how it works in practice but I believe it's the intention.

[OldTrees1]

I disagree. The party should use 1/4 of their daily resources, for a CR = party level trap, healing the rogue and/or by-passing the trap.

Obviously that isn't how it works in practice but I believe it's the intention.

Intention? Sure, I can assume that. However in practice, when only a fraction of the party is in an encounter designed for the entire party... So while a surviving rogue will get healing, they still had to defeat the encounter on their own(in some cases by surviving the trap). Now there are ways to avoid this problem by having the DM design it so that the entire party engages the encounter. However when it is the case DMs need to understand the threat level they are using.

[Darrin]

If traps did not have the potential to seriously harm or even kill a player, there would be no point in them or in rogues (et. al.) investing ranks in disable device.


I find this line of reasoning deeply flawed. Traps should only be used to make the dungeon interesting, not to give the Rogue something to do. Insisting that the Rogue has a dedicated "trapfinding" role is problematic, because if he invests ranks in the appropriate skills, then there's an expectation that he'll get to use them and will be rewarded with dramatic moments where the rest of the party will slap him on the back and congratulate him for doing such a great job. In actual practice, the finding/removing of traps is stupendously uninteresting:

1) Search check doesn't find anything. Rogue has absolutely no idea if his investment was worth it.
2) Search check doesn't find anything. Trap goes off, party takes damage. Rogue is peeved because his "special role" and his invested skill ranks were absolutely useless, and the rest of the party is annoyed with him because he "failed" in his role.
3) Search check does find something. Within seconds, he rolls another skill check and the trap is disarmed, never to be thought of again. What kind of trap was it? What would have happened if it went off? Why was it put there? How exactly did the rogue disable it? Did he think of a really clever way to disarm it using just his wits, a piece of string, and a tindertwig? No one cares, because the rest of the party is moving on to the next room.

This kind of "role protectionism" is bad game design. Getting past a trap should be a reward for careful planning and creative thinking from the entire party, not drudge work for one guy who happened to put skill ranks in the "avoid arbitrary damage" skill.



I would suggest telling your party and DM that from now on you will be keeping your head on a swivel and ask that they give you room and time to check non combat areas out before they run in blindly.


This slows down the game immensely and leaves everybody else in the group bored, twiddling their thumbs while the Rogue makes a bunch of abstract skill checks or argues with the DM about meaningless minutiae. Make traps interactive for the whole party or just leave them out entirely. The Rogue can put his skill points in more interesting skills.

[DeltaEmil]

Encounter Traps from Dungeonscape page 125 are superior to SRD traps, because it now becomes a party affair.

[nedz]

Not really, besides not only should you have gotten a save but you should have had a +1 on the check.

Trap Sense (Ex)

At 3rd level, a rogue gains an intuitive sense that alerts her to danger from traps, giving her a +1 bonus on Reflex saves made to avoid traps and a +1 dodge bonus to AC against attacks made by traps. These bonuses rise to +2 when the rogue reaches 6th level, to +3 when she reaches 9th level, to +4 when she reaches 12th level, to +5 at 15th, and to +6 at 18th level.

Also, at level 2, Rogues get Evasion. This means that: if you made the save you would have taken no damage.

Traps have their place, but their nature should really reflect on their creators. The traps in the DMG are just Dumb ways to die.

[Ferronach]

I find this line of reasoning deeply flawed. Traps should only be used to make the dungeon interesting, not to give the Rogue something to do. Insisting that the Rogue has a dedicated "trapfinding" role is problematic, because if he invests ranks in the appropriate skills, then there's an expectation that he'll get to use them and will be rewarded with dramatic moments where the rest of the party will slap him on the back and congratulate him for doing such a great job. In actual practice, the finding/removing of traps is stupendously uninteresting:

1) Search check doesn't find anything. Rogue has absolutely no idea if his investment was worth it.
2) Search check doesn't find anything. Trap goes off, party takes damage. Rogue is peeved because his "special role" and his invested skill ranks were absolutely useless, and the rest of the party is annoyed with him because he "failed" in his role.
3) Search check does find something. Within seconds, he rolls another skill check and the trap is disarmed, never to be thought of again. What kind of trap was it? What would have happened if it went off? Why was it put there? How exactly did the rogue disable it? Did he think of a really clever way to disarm it using just his wits, a piece of string, and a tindertwig? No one cares, because the rest of the party is moving on to the next room.

This kind of "role protectionism" is bad game design. Getting past a trap should be a reward for careful planning and creative thinking from the entire party, not drudge work for one guy who happened to put skill ranks in the "avoid arbitrary damage" skill.

I am not saying that you should load a dungeon with traps and say "well you should have brought a rogue." Nor am I saying that the traps should be the main challenge.
This isn't tomb or horros after all.
I include traps to highlight things (people usually use traps to keep others out) and to provided a break from the drudgery of walk, fight, heal, rest, repeat.
The majority of traps can be defeated by simple reasoning and with limited items. Once a trap has been identified, the rogue may ask the strong guy to roll the big bolder into the way of the blade trap to cripple it. He may ask the waizard to pop an AMF onto a magical trap or he may stealthily disable the trap to allow the party to ambush the lazy guards on the other side.
I usually give XP to the anyone who participates in the venture to encourage team-work.


This slows down the game immensely and leaves everybody else in the group bored, twiddling their thumbs while the Rogue makes a bunch of abstract skill checks or argues with the DM about meaningless minutiae. Make traps interactive for the whole party or just leave them out entirely. The Rogue can put his skill points in more interesting skills.

How would an in-game slowing down of things slow game play down? Yes the player has to use his head and think of where a trap is likely and then make a roll or two.
Or the DM just slips the occasional "you feel/sense/think that this would be a good location for a trap" or "something catches your eye but you can't quite be sure what" which propts the trapper to take acloser look. Trap sense can be read as having that kind of effect after all.

[Flickerdart]

I include traps to highlight things (people usually use traps to keep others out) and to provided a break from the drudgery of walk, fight, heal, rest, repeat.
Adding "roll a Search check for every square between you and the goal" and the occasional "you take X damage from the wall blades" only serves to add more drudgery.

[Ferronach]

Adding "roll a Search check for every square between you and the goal" and the occasional "you take X damage from the wall blades" only serves to add more drudgery.

That it would...
Hence the "Highlight" certain things.

[Flickerdart]

That reduces the number of Search rolls, but otherwise doesn't change the "roll Search, roll Disable Device, keep walking" or "roll Search, roll saving throw because you failed, roll damage" drudgery.

[StreamOfTheSky]

The CR for traps is typically disgustingly low. They're assigned based on the assumption that traps will be their own encounter (in isolation), so anything that doesn't kill you or long-term maim or cripple you doesn't really matter, because the healing stick will erase all hp damage before the next encounter anyway. Traps are also unique in that you get the xp for them (the same amount, in fact!) whether you disarm it, find a way to bypass it, or even just take it straight on like a champ and let it go off. Because expendable minions exist (summon spells), this means many traps are basically free xp, so they have to make them even harder to detect and more dangerous in a misguided attempt to compensate for this.

No rogue should relish being the trap monkey. It's a horrible, thankless job with a high mortality rate, and those bastards that adventure with you who hang out a room back in safety while you risk your life solo still expect an equal cut of any treasure you might find beyond the trap. I play rogues a lot, and do my best to avoid being stuck with this duty. There's nothing fun about a binary dice roll version of Russian Roulette.

[Telok]

That reduces the number of Search rolls, but otherwise doesn't change the "roll Search, roll Disable Device, keep walking" or "roll Search, roll saving throw because you failed, roll damage" drudgery.

Try something more than your boring old traps.
A glyph of warding on the back of the treasure room door with a summoning spell in it.
A room sized pit and slide trap that is designed to keep the flesh eating oozes on the lower levels on the dungeon.
A chunk of meat on a stick in a clearing in the forest.
A lever labelled "Trap" that sets off an alarm.
The dragon lair trap that does nothing but dump fifty gallons of BBQ sauce on the party.

[Ferronach]

The dragon lair trap that does nothing but dump fifty gallons of BBQ sauce on the party.

This is amazing! I laughed so hard. Mind if I file this away in my folder of things to do to annoying players?

[OldTrees1]

No rogue should relish being the trap monkey. It's a horrible, thankless job with a high mortality rate, and those bastards that adventure with you who hang out a room back in safety while you risk your life solo still expect an equal cut of any treasure you might find beyond the trap. I play rogues a lot, and do my best to avoid being stuck with this duty. There's nothing fun about a binary dice roll version of Russian Roulette.

Um. I do like the trap monkey rogue. From a Roleplay point of view it is like being the Ranger/Druid guide when the party goes into the woods. You get to be the knowledgeable and skilled guide while at the same time competing with the dungeon architect(quite fun). Besides if you can RP as a trap monkey rogue then the binary dice rolls are very very rare since you know how to take precautions and hedge your risks.

[Karl Aegis]

Um. I do like the trap monkey rogue. From a Roleplay point of view it is like being the Ranger/Druid guide when the party goes into the woods. You get to be the knowledgeable and skilled guide while at the same time competing with the dungeon architect(quite fun). Besides if you can RP as a trap monkey rogue then the binary dice rolls are very very rare since you know how to take precautions and hedge your risks.

That's cool. How do you get Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) onto your class list?

[OldTrees1]

That's cool. How do you get Knowledge (Dungeoneering) and Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) onto your class list?

The Education feat adds all knowledge skills as class skills. It also doubles as a +2/+2 feat for 2 knowledge skills. There may be other ways(I think Dwarves get one or the other from substitution levels) but Education is the most efficient (or tied with Able Learner feat + 1 level of Factotum).

[Starbuck_II]

Try something more than your boring old traps.
A glyph of warding on the back of the treasure room door with a summoning spell in it.
A room sized pit and slide trap that is designed to keep the flesh eating oozes on the lower levels on the dungeon.
A chunk of meat on a stick in a clearing in the forest.
A lever labelled "Trap" that sets off an alarm.
The dragon lair trap that does nothing but dump fifty gallons of BBQ sauce on the party.


I might add a few to my dungeon I'm running.

I wish there were more printed examples of Encounter Traps from Dungeonscape .

[Darrin]

I am not saying that you should load a dungeon with traps and say "well you should have brought a rogue." Nor am I saying that the traps should be the main challenge.
This isn't tomb or horros after all.
I include traps to highlight things (people usually use traps to keep others out) and to provided a break from the drudgery of walk, fight, heal, rest, repeat.


I apologize. I should not have been so accusatory. I have no problems with using traps creatively. While we may not agree on theory or methodology, it sounds like we both agree that traps should be used creatively.



How would an in-game slowing down of things slow game play down? Yes the player has to use his head and think of where a trap is likely and then make a roll or two.


I don't see how slowing down things in-game can do anything except slowing down everything, including out-of-game. This is probably more of a personal preference thing for me, really... my group tends to have so little time to play nowadays that I work hard to concentrate the exciting stuff and skip over the boring stuff.



Or the DM just slips the occasional "you feel/sense/think that this would be a good location for a trap" or "something catches your eye but you can't quite be sure what" which propts the trapper to take acloser look. Trap sense can be read as having that kind of effect after all.

That's how I prefer it, actually. If I'm using traps, I'll give the rogue/trapfinder a deliberate clue, he tips off the party, and then everybody can take part in figuring out the solution.

[Karl Aegis]

The Education feat adds all knowledge skills as class skills. It also doubles as a +2/+2 feat for 2 knowledge skills. There may be other ways(I think Dwarves get one or the other from substitution levels) but Education is the most efficient (or tied with Able Learner feat + 1 level of Factotum).

You've invested a feat, a class level and four skills into finding and disabling traps. Yeah, traps are OP.

[OldTrees1]

You've invested a feat, a class level and four skills into finding and disabling traps. Yeah, traps are OP.

Huh? Would you please elaborate on both what you just said and how it connects to what I was saying?

If you are referring to

Besides if you can RP as a trap monkey rogue then the binary dice rolls are very very rare since you know how to take precautions and hedge your risks.
Then you should note I was referring to RPing resulting from having the Trapfinding class feature. I personally don't have ranks in Architecture(although I may in Dungeoneering) and yet I can cite precautions for a decent chance at the Tomb of Horrors.

If you are referring to

Um. I do like the trap monkey rogue.
Then why would my investment matter?

If you are referring to

Let's presume the traps are accurately CR'd. A CR 5 fight is an easy fight(EL=ECL) for a party of 4 ECL 5 PCs. Frequently only 1 PC is engaging a trap. A CR 5 fight is a 50/50 fight(EL=ECL+4) against 1 ECL 5 PC. Therefore you should mentally add 4 to the CR of a trap to adjust for only 1 PC encountering it.

So a Fireball trap vs a single level 3 rogue is an EL = ECL + 6 encounter. Most of the time the rogue would be dead. (remember a Campaign Boss is usually an EL = ECL + 4 encounter)
Then I don't know what investment you are referring to.

[Ferronach]

I apologize. I should not have been so accusatory. I have no problems with using traps creatively. While we may not agree on theory or methodology, it sounds like we both agree that traps should be used creatively.

No problem mate, everyone is entitled to their opinion :) I should probably have elaborated a bit anyways.


I don't see how slowing down things in-game can do anything except slowing down everything, including out-of-game. This is probably more of a personal preference thing for me, really... my group tends to have so little time to play nowadays that I work hard to concentrate the exciting stuff and skip over the boring stuff.

Fair enough. I find it depends on the group too and their expectations. Some people love traps and others hate them and don't want any there.


That's how I prefer it, actually. If I'm using traps, I'll give the rogue/trapfinder a deliberate clue, he tips off the party, and then everybody can take part in figuring out the solution.

This is also my preference and I usually run my games this way unless the group wants more/less.

[holywhippet]

Damage traps are boring and anti-fun. They have no place in any game.


They do make sense though. If I'm trying to protect something valuable I am likely to implement something that is going to kill intruders, not inconvenience them.

My question is what was in the dungeon (or whatever) that was so valuable as to justify that trap? According to the SRD a fireball trap costs 12,000 gold and 960xp to make. If you are going to build a trap that costs that much you really want it to be protecting something worth a whole lot more. Wealth by level wise a third level character/party should not be anywhere near getting something that valuable.

[justiceforall]

Required reading: Bad Trap Syndrome (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.ph...trap-syndrome/). Also, Part 2 (http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.ph...ad-trap-blues/).

Just tried to follow that link and got nuthin. Darrin is there anywhere else I can read this?

[OldTrees1]

Just tried to follow that link and got nuthin. Darrin is there anywhere else I can read this?

Google granted me these:
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/90/bad-trap-syndrome/
http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/91/bad-trap-syndrome-curing-the-bad-trap-blues/

[Starbuck_II]

They do make sense though. If I'm trying to protect something valuable I am likely to implement something that is going to kill intruders, not inconvenience them.

My question is what was in the dungeon (or whatever) that was so valuable as to justify that trap? According to the SRD a fireball trap costs 12,000 gold and 960xp to make. If you are going to build a trap that costs that much you really want it to be protecting something worth a whole lot more. Wealth by level wise a third level character/party should not be anywhere near getting something that valuable.

This is a good point especially if a one shot trap. Worse, if this is a repeating trap the price increases a lot.

[justiceforall]

Trees I think those are the same links. Regardless, they also don't work.

I'm assuming they work from your browser? (just an idiot check to see if I need to check if this place is filtering them for some reason).

[OldTrees1]

Trees I think those are the same links. Regardless, they also don't work.

I'm assuming they work from your browser? (just an idiot check to see if I need to check if this place is filtering them for some reason).

Yeah they work in my Chrome browser. It might be either your browser, your location, or your connection.

[Flickerdart]

Trees I think those are the same links. Regardless, they also don't work.

I'm assuming they work from your browser? (just an idiot check to see if I need to check if this place is filtering them for some reason).
Try the links through the google translate method (https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=bs&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Farsludi.lamemage.com%2Findex.php%2F 90%2Fbad-trap-syndrome%2F&edit-text=&act=url) or the wayback machine (https://web.archive.org/web/20141013064514/http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/90/bad-trap-syndrome/).

[justiceforall]

Wayback worked. Thanks.

[Telok]

So, the BBQ thing. I first heard this story at a gaming table a bit over twenty years ago.

A group of big tough heroes is trekking through a desert when the DM rolls on the random encounter chart. Silence descends as the DM looks from his dice to the chart, to the dice, back to the chart, and goes "Um... Well, ok then."
The party spots something flying way up in the sky and pretty far away. They can't really do much about it so they continue on. A little bit later the flying thing changes course to pass over them. As it keeps getting larger and larger the party realizes that it's a BIG red dragon, really high up. Right, out come the potions of fire resistance, the magic arrows, the thief's best poison. While the wizard is worrying about which of his spells will work the dragon circles the party a few times safely up out of range. And flies off.
Well the big dumb lizard must have decided we were too tough for it. Right on man. Keep on trekking.
A couple hours later thr dragon comes back. Alright, do the drill. Potions, arrows, poison, spells. But wait, it's carrying a giant bucket. The dragon circles a couple times, high up, and dumps the bucket. Direct hit, nails the party. They're all covered in a slightly sticky, brownish, sweet smelling goo.
Bruning? No. Acid? No. Hinders movement? No. Then what the... "I taste it." Says one player.
BBQ sauce. Extra spicy.
"We are so boned."

That's pretty much how I heard the story back then. I put BBQ sauce traps in my dragon lairs. Now you have the story. What are you going to do?

[Karl Aegis]

What are you going to do?

Know the true names of any dragon I could possibly encounter and command them to stop wasting valuable resources on random passerbys.

[Ferronach]

Now you have the story. What are you going to do?

Carry an umbrella and belt out MC Hammer's Can't touch this?

Then get the druid to cast goodberry for the salad?

[SinsI]

They do make sense though. If I'm trying to protect something valuable I am likely to implement something that is going to kill intruders, not inconvenience them.

My question is what was in the dungeon (or whatever) that was so valuable as to justify that trap? According to the SRD a fireball trap costs 12,000 gold and 960xp to make. If you are going to build a trap that costs that much you really want it to be protecting something worth a whole lot more. Wealth by level wise a third level character/party should not be anywhere near getting something that valuable.

Don't bring economics into D&D. Prices in D&D exist for players only - i.e. the price of a one-use magic item or one charge in a wand increases 5x if you are doing a one-time dungeon run.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I wish there were more printed examples of Encounter Traps from Dungeonscape .

Secrets of Xen'drik has a bunch. That is where they first appeared.

[Blackhawk748]

I kinda like being the Trap Rogue. Then again we rarely get traps besides pitfalls or the Goblin Equalizer unless we have a Rogue, mainly because our DM doesnt want to be a total tool. The reason i like being the Trap guy is because my DM actually asks how you disable said trap and depending on how you do it you get a bonus. Now if you cant think of one you just roll and add you Disable Device as normal, but ive gotten a +10 once for some fairly descriptive trap breaking, oh and the party was shouting suggestions from the door, which was fun for them.

[RolkFlameraven]

The CR for traps is typically disgustingly low. They're assigned based on the assumption that traps will be their own encounter (in isolation), so anything that doesn't kill you or long-term maim or cripple you doesn't really matter, because the healing stick will erase all hp damage before the next encounter anyway. Traps are also unique in that you get the xp for them (the same amount, in fact!) whether you disarm it, find a way to bypass it, or even just take it straight on like a champ and let it go off. Because expendable minions exist (summon spells), this means many traps are basically free xp, so they have to make them even harder to detect and more dangerous in a misguided attempt to compensate for this.

No rogue should relish being the trap monkey. It's a horrible, thankless job with a high mortality rate, and those bastards that adventure with you who hang out a room back in safety while you risk your life solo still expect an equal cut of any treasure you might find beyond the trap. I play rogues a lot, and do my best to avoid being stuck with this duty. There's nothing fun about a binary dice roll version of Russian Roulette.

If your party is a room or more behind as you take out the traps shouldn't you be getting all the exp for those traps? If the rest of the party didn't even see you disable it they really shouldn't gain any exp unless you regale them with your epic trap skillz over a camp fire or something right?

Or am I off base with that idea?

[noob]

1: Do not use doors
2: Have a barbarian to break walls curiously walls are rarely trapped and the barbarian is pretty tough.(at level 2-3 you can buy an non magical adamantine two handed sword and it helps for digging walls)
3: You do not have to know or interact with a trap for gaining its xp at the end of the adventure since it is the result who counts so if the dungeon creator trapped every brick you are going to win tons and tons of xp

[NichG]

Hey guys,
So, during a previous session, my rogue (level 3 at the time) was searching for traps and accidentally stepped on a pressure pad, instantly setting off a standard fireball trap from the SRD in that area (I wasn't allowed a save as it took up the whole area and was instantaneous, DM correct?).
Needless to say, my rogue almost got killed and couldn't do anything in the following encounter.
Having a look at the other traps, it seems like traps can pretty much kill any individual character of CR level or lower...
Are traps overpowered/under-CRed?

If anything, by-the-book traps are generally systematically underpowered. They're generally passive (traps sit there and wait for the PCs to come to them, so they can't threaten PCs who do not engage, allowing you to precisely control who is at risk and things like that). As a result, they're also often trivialized by blanket things and standard operating procedures (summon a creature, send it down the hallway first). They're generally one-shot events, so everything that a trap will ever do to you is done in one round. Also, at higher levels in particular, anything that does HP damage without also creating a time pressure either kills the target or is trivially negated.

Traps are only really threatening in two situations: when used along with a time pressure, or when the trap can create long-term consequences

In your example, there was a challenge for your rogue which you mechanically failed, and so as a result there was a consequence which impacted subsequent play (you were not able to participate in the following encounter). If you imagine that that challenge was instead a CR5 group of monsters, but that the entire fight was crammed down into a single moment (your Search check to find the trap), then you could expect a similar outcome. (Not to mention that if you did get a save then as a Lv3 rogue you would have had something like a 70% chance of totally negating the damage).

So, for example, a pair of ogres is CR5. They each do 2d8+7 damage (average of 16) on a hit. So if both ogres hit one person before they're taken out, that's 32 damage, which is comparable to the 28 damage on average from the fireball trap. In practice, the two ogres can potentially be far more dangerous to the party (they can focus fire, because of reach they may get multiple attacks and can potentially kite the party with their 40ft base speed, they can crit, and more generally they can do things like raise an alarm or coordinate with other monsters or chase the party back to their camp or whatnot)

But all of this kind of underlies the basic problem with traps, that they're very one-dimensional. They're not overpowered, but they're also not very interesting compared to proactive agents like monsters.

Personally, I think I'd almost always use traps that are very over-CR'd, but at the same time which are automatically detected by the party. So the trap becomes a choice rather than a gotcha - if you set this off, it absolutely will kill you or curse you or geas you or who knows what, but there's a reward for that risk. The trap should, by default, make it so that the reward is not worth the risk if you were to simply go and spring it. So the question is not 'did you put enough points in Search to negate this', its 'do you have a way to mitigate enough of the risk to make it worth the reward?'.

[noob]

Some traps can be cool like a trap making the suggestion when encountering a fight do not fight back and flee to a corner.
The party will not know what hit them until a fight comes or a magician use a detection spell.
You could also just use an illusory wall combined with a floor coming up and preventing other people from coming until it is broken then at the bottom have interesting stuff.
You can get creative with traps you have rules for creating them and you are not obligated to use the base traps.

[nijineko]

to lampoon a previous poster...

"to not use traps is bad, wrong, and anti-fun".


personally, i enjoy presenting and receiving traps as puzzles. they are intended to be a kind of encounter of their own right - so they need personality and good descriptives. nobody just 'finds' a trap in my games, they suddenly feel the stone under their feet shift and freeze or leap back just before it triggers; or they feel an unusual breeze and have a bad feeling, or a magic mouth suddenly speaks a warning, or they feel some unusual vibrations in the walls and/or floor, or perhaps that annoying kobold that keeps running away from them is just waiting to trigger the trap from a distance so he can laugh at them when they hopefully fall prey to it....

frankly, there are so many ways to make a trap or two a memorable, classy experience that dm's who don't use traps should be suspected of simply not trying.


one of my personal favorites is ye olde pit trap but with a twist.... how exactly one gets the pcs into the pit has so many ways that i shan't bother to enumerate; but once they are there, they discover that this pit is filled, not with spikes, not with a monster, oh no - a much worse fate awaits them. it is filled with the most fearsome, shame-inducing, bane of high level characters, soul-shrivelling twist of all... whipped cream.

it is slippery, so one can't climb. it is fluffy enough that it won't reduce falling damage, should that apply. it is thick so it cannot be breathed risking suffocation, nor seen through blocking pretty much any kind of vision except x-ray (including the usual can't-see-trump-card the psionic touchsight power), not to mention that the viscosity hampers vocal and somatic components. can't fly out, as it is clingy and heavy en-masse, plus it hampers motion. it is too light to swim in. muffles sound rather nicely so you don't have to have your afternoon snack ruined by dungeon delver screams and gurgling. plus they simply won't live down almost (or perhaps actually) dying in a pit of whipped cream. this trap is recommended for mid to high level characters.


having said that, traps are like a spice - they add seasoning, and should be used as and where appropriate, a change of pace from the old rp grind and the monster of the week.


in the end, there need be only one reference word in traps said: Grimtooth.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I personally enjoy Traps as combat hazards. If your in a big open, seemingly featureless room in a Kobold warren, you best watch your step, or random traps will spring on you. Then the traps act less as a HP tax, but a HP strain. Sure, you could handle the kobolds easily suffering little damage, but all those traps between you and them makes them legitimately threatening.

[Ferronach]

one of my personal favorites is ye olde pit trap but with a twist.... how exactly one gets the pcs into the pit has so many ways that i shan't bother to enumerate; but once they are there, they discover that this pit is filled, not with spikes, not with a monster, oh no - a much worse fate awaits them. it is filled with the most fearsome, shame-inducing, bane of high level characters, soul-shrivelling twist of all... whipped cream.

This.. This... this is just incredibly evil in a totaly no-evil way! I love it hahaha

[atemu1234]

I wonder... is there a Whipped Cream elemental statted somewhere?

[OldTrees1]

it is slippery, so one can't climb. it is fluffy enough that it won't reduce falling damage, should that apply. it is thick so it cannot be breathed risking suffocation, nor seen through blocking pretty much any kind of vision except x-ray (including the usual can't-see-trump-card the psionic touchsight power), not to mention that the viscosity hampers vocal and somatic components. can't fly out, as it is clingy and heavy en-masse, plus it hampers motion. it is too light to swim in. muffles sound rather nicely so you don't have to have your afternoon snack ruined by dungeon delver screams and gurgling. plus they simply won't live down almost (or perhaps actually) dying in a pit of whipped cream. this trap is recommended for mid to high level characters.

Ooh. Fun.
While it makes things slippery(increasing climb DC), this could be countered with pitons(decrease the climb DC). One would have to do this blind(not too hard considering you can figure it out with just touch) while holding your breath(so figure on 10 rounds).

If everyone is in the pit then they can climb on each other(being in a fluid helps balance countering the slipperiness) so you might be able to take turns getting a breath(extending that 10rds indefinitely) or at least accelerate the first climb out. If someone is not in the pit then they can lower a rope with a makeshift seat(to counter the slipperiness) and hook it on something secure.

Of course some casters would not be up to the physical aspects of that method, but casters always have some obscure solution.

[Flickerdart]

Whipped cream, however, is edible. When was the last time you had your characters eat? They must be awful hungry.

[OldTrees1]

Whipped cream, however, is edible. When was the last time you had your characters eat? They must be awful hungry.
Attempting to eat some of it might even aid in deflating the whipped cream.

[Karl Aegis]

This is the strangest whipped cream I have ever heard of. How do you keep it refrigerated? How does it not turn into butter when the adventurers fall in? Who even afford to make something from an entirely different era than is the norm? Why not just gun the adventurers down with Ak47s at this point?

[atemu1234]

This is the strangest whipped cream I have ever heard of. How do you keep it refrigerated? How does it not turn into butter when the adventurers fall in? Who even afford to make something from an entirely different era than is the norm? Why not just gun the adventurers down with Ak47s at this point?

There has been whipped cream longer than you seem to think.

[nedz]

one of my personal favourites is ye olde pit trap but with a twist.... how exactly one gets the pcs into the pit has so many ways that i shan't bother to enumerate; but once they are there, they discover that this pit is filled, not with spikes, not with a monster, oh no - a much worse fate awaits them. it is filled with the most fearsome, shame-inducing, bane of high level characters, soul-shrivelling twist of all... whipped cream.

A Cess pit works almost as well, also Ranch source.

The last trap I ran triggered a monster summoning, which gave the whole party something to do. This seemed to go down quite well.

I had some fun with a Trap Haunt and a fairly obvious trapped door, but this was more of an encounter than a trap.

[Ferronach]

This is the strangest whipped cream I have ever heard of. How do you keep it refrigerated? How does it not turn into butter when the adventurers fall in?

Ummm magic? glyphs of preservation/glyphs of cold touch or a permanenced cold spell would work.

[Extra Anchovies]

My favorite way to make a refrigerator in 3.5 is to build a cabinet to keep the food in, add some metal paneling (preferably in places where someone won't accidentally touch them, e.g. between two panels of wood or on the underside of the refrigerator shelves), and build a repeating auto-triggering Chill Metal trap (or equivalent spellclock) targeting the metal panels.