Fractional Saves ?

[badgerman]

In one of my last posts Urpriest showed me the use of the fractional BAB.
I talked to my DM if we want to use this and he asked me if there is a fractional Save, too.
I can understand his argumentation since multiclassing benefits the saves a lot and the fractional bab will benefit multiclassing even more.

So is there something like a fractional Save ?

[Dusk Eclipse]

Yeah, fractional saves are in the same place as fractional BAB (UA page 73), but the gist of it is Good saves progression is 2+(1/2) level while the bad save progression is 1/3 level.

[badgerman]

Thanks a lot

[Dusk Eclipse]

No problem ^_^

[Flickerdart]

In one of my last posts Urpriest showed me the use of the fractional BAB.
I talked to my DM if we want to use this and he asked me if there is a fractional Save, too.
I can understand his argumentation since multiclassing benefits the saves a lot and the fractional bab will benefit multiclassing even more.

So is there something like a fractional Save ?
Fractional saves actually make multiclassing weaker in some cases. Consider: A Monk 1/Druid 5 has saves of +6/+3/+6. With fractional saves, he would only have +5/+3/+5 because he can't "double dip" into the +2 to a character's good saves at his first class level. This gets even more pronounced with prestige classes in the mix.

[Urpriest]

Fractional saves actually make multiclassing weaker in some cases. Consider: A Monk 1/Druid 5 has saves of +6/+3/+6. With fractional saves, he would only have +5/+3/+5 because he can't "double dip" into the +2 to a character's good saves at his first class level. This gets even more pronounced with prestige classes in the mix.

That's incorrect. If you read the examples, fractional saves doesn't get rid of the +2 from the first level of each class.

[thethird]

Fractional saves actually make multiclassing weaker in some cases. Consider: A Monk 1/Druid 5 has saves of +6/+3/+6. With fractional saves, he would only have +5/+3/+5 because he can't "double dip" into the +2 to a character's good saves at his first class level. This gets even more pronounced with prestige classes in the mix.

While this is a houserule I use and recomend it is a houserule.

Unearthed Arcana says:

"To determine the total base save bonus or base attack bonus of a multiclass character, add together the fractional values gained from each of her class levels."

There is no provision for no "double dipping"

[Flickerdart]

While this is a houserule I use and recomend it is a houserule.

Unearthed Arcana says:

"To determine the total base save bonus or base attack bonus of a multiclass character, add together the fractional values gained from each of her class levels."

There is no provision for no "double dipping"
Really? Huh...

I can't even find these rules in the SRD now. :smallfrown:

[Dusk Eclipse]

I'm pretty sure they were never on the SRD.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Indeed, because character creation isn't part of the Open Gaming License. Why that applies to some things but not others iono ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Dusk Eclipse]

I always thought that was because it appeared on a sidebar, and as far as I could tell nothing that was stated in side-bars went into the SRD. As for why Character creation isn't under the OGL, well WotC had to make money somewhere. Before someone says "But PF!" I recall someone mentioning that the bulk of Paizo's profit came from the APs rather than the books, furthermore the d20pfsrd isn't official as far as Paizo is concerned, heck they asked them to take down specific stuff concerning Golarion's fluff and they have their own SRD.

[Spore]

Really? Huh...

I can't even find these rules in the SRD now. :smallfrown:

That's why formulae are superior to written sentences.

Either you do:

(2+1/2 * class A) + (2+1/2 * class B) OR you do 2+1/2 classes a and b

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

I always thought that was because it appeared on a sidebar, and as far as I could tell nothing that was stated in side-bars went into the SRD. As for why Character creation isn't under the OGL, well WotC had to make money somewhere. Before someone says "But PF!" I recall someone mentioning that the bulk of Paizo's profit came from the APs rather than the books, furthermore the d20pfsrd isn't official as far as Paizo is concerned, heck they asked them to take down specific stuff concerning Golarion's fluff and they have their own SRD.



Nah, I mean stuff like bonus spells from attributes and the whole bonus attribute table would seem to me to fall under character creation, as would the Vital Statistics section, but both of those are in the SRD. But we don't get fractional BAB/Saves, even though we do get the regular, non-fractional tables. It seems haphazard.

[RedMage125]

Fractional saves actually make multiclassing weaker in some cases. Consider: A Monk 1/Druid 5 has saves of +6/+3/+6. With fractional saves, he would only have +5/+3/+5 because he can't "double dip" into the +2 to a character's good saves at his first class level. This gets even more pronounced with prestige classes in the mix.


That's incorrect. If you read the examples, fractional saves doesn't get rid of the +2 from the first level of each class.

I'm sorry Urpriest, but you're wrong. They are intended to. The "little extra" one gets for a Good save at first level of a class is like the x4 skill points at first level (or the +3 bonus for being a class skill in Pathfinder). To do otherwise is cherry-picking and being inconsistent by saying "I want what the table says for my saves, but fractional for my BAB". If you are doing Fractional BAB and Saves, then the number on the table no longer matters, only (x levels of Good BAB class+X levels of Medium BAB class+X levels of Poor BAB class=total) and (X levels of classes with Good Save+X levels of classes with Poor Save=Total for all 3 saves).

Pathfinder, especially, since they just released Unchained, which is like their version of Unearthed Arcana, and they specifically address this in the section about fractional BAB/Saves. For which I am grateful.

So yes, doing fractional will give you a better BAB (sometimes by a lot, depending on which classes you are combining), you will-more likely than not-lose some Save bonuses.

[Urpriest]

I'm sorry Urpriest, but you're wrong. They are intended to. The "little extra" one gets for a Good save at first level of a class is like the x4 skill points at first level (or the +3 bonus for being a class skill in Pathfinder). To do otherwise is cherry-picking and being inconsistent by saying "I want what the table says for my saves, but fractional for my BAB". If you are doing Fractional BAB and Saves, then the number on the table no longer matters, only (x levels of Good BAB class+X levels of Medium BAB class+X levels of Poor BAB class=total) and (X levels of classes with Good Save+X levels of classes with Poor Save=Total for all 3 saves).

Pathfinder, especially, since they just released Unchained, which is like their version of Unearthed Arcana, and they specifically address this in the section about fractional BAB/Saves. For which I am grateful.

So yes, doing fractional will give you a better BAB (sometimes by a lot, depending on which classes you are combining), you will-more likely than not-lose some Save bonuses.

Again, that may be a more balanced system, or a more elegant system, but that's explicitly not how it works. Read the examples in Unearthed Arcana, specifically the Cleric/Fighter. +2 for each class that gives a +2 is explicitly how they handle it.

[eggynack]

Read the examples in Unearthed Arcana, specifically the Cleric/Fighter. +2 for each class that gives a +2 is explicitly how they handle it.
In fact, technically speaking, the fractional save rules grant a +2.5 for each class that gives a +2. This increases the possible maximum save to +50, as unlikely as that is in practice. Thus, if anything, the fractional save rules let dips boost saves even more than normal.

[bekeleven]

In games I run (which typically have less-than-forum-level interested parties), I just do fractional saves as:

Add up all of the levels you have with good fort saves. Find the base fort save the monk has at that level. Add up your remaining levels, find the base fort save the wizard has at that level. A+B=Fort.

Repeat for reflex (Monk/Fighter) and Will (Monk/Fighter).

[Segev]

The formula clearly used for "good saves" in every class printed in 3.5 is "2+[half class level]," which the chart just rounds down for you. You can find justification in the rules to say the chart is the chart is the chart, and thus throw away all fractional saves, but the chart is clearly calculated that way AND the rules in UA support it.

Furthermore, just to point it out a bit more thoroughly, take a look at [ur=http://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/arcaneArcher.htm]this arbitrarily-selected PrC[/url]. It has two good saves; both start at +2 at level one (technically +2.5 if you're using fractional saves).
Compare to any other PrC you care to name.

Every class, prestige or otherwise, uses the 2+[half class level] formula as its base for "good saves."

Thus, by every rule and reference, implicit or explicit, you do get a bonus +2 to your saves for each class you take that grants them as "good." To do otherwise is a house rule.

[Ashtagon]

I'm sorry Urpriest, but you're wrong. They are intended to. The "little extra" one gets for a Good save at first level of a class is like the x4 skill points at first level (or the +3 bonus for being a class skill in Pathfinder). ...

If that were truly the case, no prestige class would have "good saves" that grant a +2 bonus on their first level.

[Stegyre]

Yeah, I think it's pretty well established that the RAW is to get the +2 (or +2.5, for fractional) bonus on a good save every single time you take the first level of such a class.

Getting it only once per save, or only for your first character level (another variation I've heard of) are houserules. That said, imo, it's a good houserule. I like to multiclass, because no single class gives me the combination of features I want, but stacking good save bonuses just makes me feel dirty (along with a bit of, "What was WOTC thinking??").