Magic Item & Enchantment "Cap"

[Cyussu]

Now, I know that pre-epic items, +10 & 200,000gp is the limit. I get that much. But is it possible just have a weapon that is, say, +1 Scorpion Kama, could I add +9 in NINE different enchantments? Or what? I'm having trouble finding anything akin to that stuff...

[Karl Aegis]

No, you cannot have a +82 weapon before epic.

[Psyren]

Assuming you mean "Can I have a +1 weapon with 9 different +1 attributes pre-epic," then yes.
Assuming you mean "Can I have a +1 weapon with 9 different +9 attributes pre-epic," then no, see the post above mine.

[Rubik]

Actually, it is possible to get +dozens on a weapon pre-epic, but you have to go through certain optimization hoops in order to do so. For instance, stacking a bow with +1 in enhancement bonuses and +9 in weapon abilities with the same on ammunition, as well as a casting of Greater Magic Weapon at +5.

Something similar can be done with an unarmed strike if you stack enough items onto yourself, along with things like kensai, a necklace of natural weapons, the Ancestral Relic feat, and so on.

[Cyussu]

I said +9 in nine /different/...OBVIOUSLY Not 9 +9s...

[Cyussu]

Assuming you mean "Can I have a +1 weapon with 9 different +9 attributes pre-epic," then no, see the post above mine.

Meaning you misread my post horribly.

[Temotei]

I said +9 in nine /different/...OBVIOUSLY Not 9 +9s...


Meaning you misread my post horribly.

Picking on people trying to help you isn't exactly a cool thing to do--especially when, as written, it could be read correctly either way.

[Karl Aegis]

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[Necroticplague]

Actually, it is possible to get +dozens on a weapon pre-epic, but you have to go through certain optimization hoops in order to do so. For instance, stacking a bow with +1 in enhancement bonuses and +9 in weapon abilities with the same on ammunition, as well as a casting of Greater Magic Weapon at +5.

Something similar can be done with an unarmed strike if you stack enough items onto yourself, along with things like kensai, a necklace of natural weapons, the Ancestral Relic feat, and so on.

Don't forget having a Fiend of Possession/Legacy Champion with a couple bloodlines possessing your weapon.

[KillianHawkeye]

To answer the question more succinctly, you can have any number of enhancements on a piece of magical armor or weaponry pre-Epic provided the total effective enhancement bonus (actual enhancement bonus plus "+N enhancement bonus"-cost special abilities) does not exceed +10, nor the overall market value exceeds 200,000 gp. The only limitations are the gold piece value and the total effective enhancement bonus, which are arrived at by adding up all the applicable values. Whether this limit is reached via a +5 vorpal (+5 enhancement cost) sword or via a +1 weapon with nine other +1 cost abilities, or even via a metric shed load of +gp cost special abilities, is totally irrelevant.

[Chronos]

Not only is this possible, but it's actually what's recommended for a high-level warrior's weapon. Abilities are usually more useful than numbers, and if you really want the numbers anyway, that's just a casting of Greater Magic Weapon away.

[Cyussu]

Thank y'all for the clear up on the phrasing and wording of how wotc explained, or rather didn't exactly explain, the enchantment process in detail. ^~^ I was trying to figure out if I could have made a low rage/day unarmed (Scorpion kamas) fighter. Which would require Brash(?, it's in MiC, adds +3 rounds/hit) among a couple other on-hit buffs onto it all. So again, thank y'all :3

[Psyren]

Meaning you misread my post horribly.

Given that at least three of us read your post that way independently, I would wager that the fault lay in your phrasing.

[Ferronach]

[Thread Steal]

For instance, stacking a bow with +1 in enhancement bonuses and +9 in weapon abilities with the same on ammunition, as well as a casting of Greater Magic Weapon at +5.


Sorry to steal the thread for a moment.
This only works if the two enhancement bonuses are diffrent right? I.E. +10 bow with arrows that have all sorts of stuff like elemental damage and bane damage etc and not a plain +10 bow with plain +10 arrows making +20 (it would just be whichever is highest - in this case +10 from either)?


Given that at least three of us read your post that way...
Count me in this group!

[Rubik]

Sorry to steal the thread for a moment.
This only works if the two enhancement bonuses are diffrent right? I.E. +10 bow with arrows that have all sorts of stuff like elemental damage and bane damage etc and not a plain +10 bow with plain +10 arrows making +20 (it would just be whichever is highest - in this case +10 from either)?+1 bow of flaming/frost/shock/distance/splitting/etc with +1 arrows of collision/exploding/exit wounds/etc with Greater Magic Weapon cast on the bow for a +5 enhancement bonus. The +1/+1/+5 don't stack, because they're all enhancement bonuses, and only the +5 applies. All of the special abilities stack, however.

This gets worse and/or better with the unarmed strike, as you can apply a good dozen different effects which let you turn it into a +X equivalent weapon (gauntlets, six different chronocharms with a necklace of natural weapons added to each one, kensai, Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar, and so on). The enhancement bonuses still don't stack, but all the special abilities potentially do.

[Warlawk]

Given that at least three of us read your post that way independently, I would wager that the fault lay in your phrasing.

I just wanted to chime in supporting the OP. His post was pretty straightforward IMO.


Now, I know that pre-epic items, +10 & 200,000gp is the limit.
He understands that he cannot go over +10, OP established this in the first sentence.


...+1 Scorpion Kama, could I add +9 in NINE different enchantments?

Since we have already established that the maximum is +10, and Cyussu clearly knows this, the second portion of the statement is pretty clear.


...+1 Scorpion Kama, could I add +9 {this clearly indicates that he wants to add a total of +9 to the existing +1 for the already established total of +10} in NINE different enchantments?

Rolling a critical fail on reading comprehension, even by three different people doesn't make the OP wrong. I don't mean this to be rude to anyone, but it kinda bugged me that the OP got a bit piled on because other people made mistakes.

As for OP, as indicated this is usually considered to be a better investment than simply getting a +X weapon. Metaline or... Alchemical? are great options. I think it might be called transmuting instead of alchemical, I cannot recall and am away from the books. Basically something that will allow your weapon to switch the base material it is made of so that you can overcome a variety of DR types.

[Ferronach]

+1 bow of flaming/frost/shock/distance/splitting/etc with +1 arrows of collision/exploding/exit wounds/etc with Greater Magic Weapon cast on the bow for a +5 enhancement bonus. The +1/+1/+5 don't stack, because they're all enhancement bonuses, and only the +5 applies. All of the special abilities stack, however.

This gets worse and/or better with the unarmed strike, as you can apply a good dozen different effects which let you turn it into a +X equivalent weapon (gauntlets, six different chronocharms with a necklace of natural weapons added to each one, kensai, Ancestral Relic, Item Familiar, and so on). The enhancement bonuses still don't stack, but all the special abilities potentially do.

Thanks! I thought that was how it worked but it has been a while since I have played something like that.... maybe I should make an unarmed swordsage for my next goon... hmmm hahaha

[/Thread Steal]

[Cyussu]

I very much appreciate the defense Warlawk, thank you. :3

I was curious, would placing the same effect, say Acid, stack by Raw? I assume it doesn't honestly. Although that's not to say I'm asking if the Burst(Crit) + Corrosive(Power Word) & the Base Element Enchant would or would not stack, just curious since I haven't found anything that /technically/ says you can't have a +1 Flaming Longsword that has been enchanted 9 times with Flaming to deal 9d6 Fire.

Edit: That or I'm not looking hard enough...

[Psyren]

Rolling a critical fail on reading comprehension, even by three different people doesn't make the OP wrong. I don't mean this to be rude to anyone, but it kinda bugged me that the OP got a bit piled on because other people made mistakes.

Pointing out an ambiguous (not "wrong," ambiguous) phrasing is not "piling on." There is no need to take simple criticism so personally, especially when one is asking for help. Nor does "I don't mean this to be rude" make a rude statement any less rude. :smallannoyed:

It sounds like you and the OP have this well in hand, so have fun.

[nijineko]

I very much appreciate the defense Warlawk, thank you. :3

I was curious, would placing the same effect, say Acid, stack by Raw? I assume it doesn't honestly. Although that's not to say I'm asking if the Burst(Crit) + Corrosive(Power Word) & the Base Element Enchant would or would not stack, just curious since I haven't found anything that /technically/ says you can't have a +1 Flaming Longsword that has been enchanted 9 times with Flaming to deal 9d6 Fire.

Edit: That or I'm not looking hard enough...

same source stacking rules kick in there, preventing said result.

[KillianHawkeye]

I very much appreciate the defense Warlawk, thank you. :3

I was curious, would placing the same effect, say Acid, stack by Raw? I assume it doesn't honestly. Although that's not to say I'm asking if the Burst(Crit) + Corrosive(Power Word) & the Base Element Enchant would or would not stack, just curious since I haven't found anything that /technically/ says you can't have a +1 Flaming Longsword that has been enchanted 9 times with Flaming to deal 9d6 Fire.

Edit: That or I'm not looking hard enough...


same source stacking rules kick in there, preventing said result.

Yeah.

Basically, the situation is that your sword or whatever can either be flaming or not flaming. If you want it to be more flaming than that, you gotta go with something that specifically stacks (like flaming burst). If you want to fill up your weapon with special abilities, they pretty much all have to be different.

It's like the same thing as taking a feat more than once. It doesn't work unless there's a specific rule allowing it. You can't take Dodge a bunch of times to keep raising your AC, for example.

[Acanous]

Oddly enough, you CAN have a weapon that breaks both the +10 limit and the GP limit pre-epic, but it'd be a double weapon or multi-headed weapon (Since each side/head/flail is enchanted separately)

This can get you say, a Cat o' Nine Tails with a total value of 1,800,000 GP, with up to 81 different enchantments, all tails being +1.

Alternatively, to break the +10 "Hard Cap" you can abuse Bane.
+1 Magebane/ (Memory's failing me here, but there's a bane that works on things touching the ground)/ Chaotic Outsider bane/ Evil Outsider Bane Holy Axiomatic Seeking Longbow with +5 arrows, for example, is going to hit any Demon standing on the ground like a truck. (We're talking +13 enhancement bonus, +12d6 damage, and the base D10.) Of course, that's very target specific.

[Warlawk]

Pointing out an ambiguous (not "wrong," ambiguous) phrasing is not "piling on." There is no need to take simple criticism so personally, especially when one is asking for help. Nor does "I don't mean this to be rude" make a rude statement any less rude. :smallannoyed:

It sounds like you and the OP have this well in hand, so have fun.

I didn't see anything ambiguous, I broke down exactly what the post says step by step. When I read the thread the '+82' interpretation didn't even enter my mind until others in the thread pointed it out. IMO that was a fail at reading comprehension several people blamed it on the OP. Sorry you found htat offensive, I found the thread a bit rude with everyone giving OP grief because they misinterpreted his post.


...
This can get you say, a Cat o' Nine Tails with a total value of 1,800,000 GP, with up to 81 different enchantments, all tails being +1.
...

I don't think that would work. All 9 tails are a single weapon. There are no stats for a single lash. This would be like trying to place different enchantments on each tine of a trident. Different tables have different standards for reasonable though, so I suppose that would be a DM's call. I'm not aware of anything in the rules that support this though.

[KillianHawkeye]

I don't think that would work. All 9 tails are a single weapon. There are no stats for a single lash. This would be like trying to place different enchantments on each tine of a trident. Different tables have different standards for reasonable though, so I suppose that would be a DM's call. I'm not aware of anything in the rules that support this though.

Right. What he suggests would work with double weapons, which are explicitly enchanted as if they were two separate weapons, but there is no way a scourge or a cat o' nine tails or any other weapon that happens to use multiple striking surfaces all at once would multiply the number of enchantments you can put onto it. That's just crazy talk, and not supported anywhere in the rules.

[Rubik]

A manyfang weapon effectively multiplies the effects of any damaging enhancement by x4, so something like flaming should equal four +1 enhancements for no additional cost.

[atemu1234]

A manyfang weapon effectively multiplies the effects of any damaging enhancement by x4, so something like flaming should equal four +1 enhancements for no additional cost.

Interesting. What's the source on that?

[Rubik]

Interesting. What's the source on that?Serpent Kingdoms. Manyfang dagger, deals x4 damage.

[Acanous]

I can't pull a quote, maybe it was in 3.0. I thought maybe PF, but the OGC doesn't have it either- there was a many-tailed whip that had the "Must enchant each tail separately" line on it.
I'd like to know where the heck it is now, if anyone recalls. It had a special name.

[Andezzar]

same source stacking rules kick in there, preventing said result.While they do not stack in the traditional sense, you would still get a minor benefit from firing a flaming arrow from a flaming bow. The highest bonus applies. So you roll two d6 and take the highest result.

[bekeleven]

Thank y'all for the clear up on the phrasing and wording of how wotc explained, or rather didn't exactly explain, the enchantment process in detail. ^~^ I was trying to figure out if I could have made a low rage/day unarmed (Scorpion kamas) fighter. Which would require Brash(?, it's in MiC, adds +3 rounds/hit) among a couple other on-hit buffs onto it all. So again, thank y'all :3


A manyfang weapon effectively multiplies the effects of any damaging enhancement by x4, so something like flaming should equal four +1 enhancements for no additional cost.

Neither of these work. Adding any +X Enhancements to these items is only doable via DM Fiat, given that both items are unique weapons. They have special properties which can be reverse-engineered multiple ways, and are therefore priced ambiguously, even if the rules allow you to do such things which is unclear.

We went over this 9 months ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372670-Is-the-increased-damage-for-Monk-unarmed-strikes-a-trap&p=18137116&viewfull=1#post18137116). It doesn't work. Serpent Kingdoms is broken enough on its own without people making things up.

[Rubik]

Neither of these work. Adding any +X Enhancements to these items is only doable via DM Fiat, given that both items are unique weapons. They have special properties which can be reverse-engineered multiple ways, and are therefore priced ambiguously, even if the rules allow you to do such things which is unclear.

We went over this 9 months ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372670-Is-the-increased-damage-for-Monk-unarmed-strikes-a-trap&p=18137116&viewfull=1#post18137116). It doesn't work. Serpent Kingdoms is broken enough on its own without people making things up.That's demonstrably wrong. Weapons are explicitly upgradeable. There are rules for it in the DMG and the MIC.

[KillianHawkeye]

While they do not stack in the traditional sense, you would still get a minor benefit from firing a flaming arrow from a flaming bow. The highest bonus applies. So you roll two d6 and take the highest result.

Since that is such an extremely marginal benefit, go ahead and take advantage of it. I doubt anyone would have a problem with that.


Neither of these work. Adding any +X Enhancements to these items is only doable via DM Fiat, given that both items are unique weapons. They have special properties which can be reverse-engineered multiple ways, and are therefore priced ambiguously, even if the rules allow you to do such things which is unclear.

We went over this 9 months ago (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?372670-Is-the-increased-damage-for-Monk-unarmed-strikes-a-trap&p=18137116&viewfull=1#post18137116). It doesn't work. Serpent Kingdoms is broken enough on its own without people making things up.


That's demonstrably wrong. Weapons are explicitly upgradeable. There are rules for it in the DMG and the MIC.

Well, the problem with upgrading the unique weapons and armors that appear in the DMG and other books is that many of them do not follow any kind of decipherable formula for determining their market price (as clearly alluded to by bekeleven), which makes adding additional enhancements problematic. How can you add a +X-valued enchantment onto an item when you don't know what its effective enhancement bonus is to begin with? Short answer: you probably can, but you have no idea how much it should cost.

While some of the "specific" magical weapons or armors are simply a specific combination of special materials and/or magical enhancements, neither the DMG nor the MIC really address how to add further enhancements onto those items with truly unique abilities that only exist for that item and don't have a listed cost. For example, how is the price of a Holy Avenger determined? It has a bunch of abilities that other weapons can't get, but they're only usable by Paladins. We have no idea, because this information was not disclosed to us by the game designers, who (I am convinced) probably priced a lot of these items without using any hard rules or specific formulas. And without knowing that, we can't really know how much other +N-cost enhancements will actually add to the item's value, can we?

Hell, even the "rules" for making custom magic items are actually only guidelines, subject to approval and adjudication by each individual Dungeon Master....