Does it work ????

[True believer]

Hello dear members !!!


I am going to enter an evil camp. For many years now i play only wizards so i decided to try something different. I am considering playing a monk that uses only unarmored damage and the Vow of poverty feat. Since the party that i will join is enough OP will i able to contribute my fair amount of dmg / utilities or i will be shadowed ???


Does Unarmored damage actually works ????
Any suggestions about the build (feats , PrCS) will be deeply appreciated :D


Ty

[daremetoidareyo]

Monks need equipment more than any other single class, except maybe fighter. What level are you starting at? Is level adjustment allowed?

[Karl Aegis]

Monks and damage don't mix well.

What is your character concept? The more details that are given, the more appropriate build you will get.

[Extra Anchovies]

Monks don't work outside of low-op. Same goes for Vow of Poverty, although a VoP Druid can hold up in mid-op.

[True believer]

I would like to make a char that doesn't need any items in order to be functional. I want for one time to play a character that doesn't worry/need/motivates from gp. So the two things that came to mind was vow of poverty and and unarmed dmg !!If you think that Undmg will work better with some other class , i am open to suggestions ! About the concept i haven't think something specific yet since i am waiting to decide about my build in order to make a concept/background that suits my choices !!!

[True believer]

Monks need equipment more than any other single class, except maybe fighter. What level are you starting at? Is level adjustment allowed?


I am starting as a level 5 char , lvl adjustment is allowed but i don't usually use it. Every time that i have use it it has backfired in my face :(

[Flickerdart]

I would like to make a char that doesn't need any items in order to be functional. I want for one time to play a character that doesn't worry/need/motivates from gp. So the two things that came to mind was vow of poverty and and unarmed dmg !!If you think that Undmg will work better with some other class , i am open to suggestions ! About the concept i haven't think something specific yet since i am waiting to decide about my build in order to make a concept/background that suits my choices !!!
If you don't want to rely on items, there are two options:

1: Buff yourself up with spells.
2: Find a source of the same kind of bonuses items give you.

Druid is top dog here because he satisfies both at once - between Wild Shape (for sweet stats and natural weapons), his casting, and his animal companion (with its own sweet stats and natural attacks) you have a strong guy even without gear. You'll still be stronger with items, but it's not so bad.

Totemist is like druid but without spells. Use your soulmelds to make yourself natural attacks and natural armor, and go around tearing people's faces off.

Clerics can do fine since they can buff themselves once and have it last all day using Divine Metamagic Persistent Spell. But not being able to own spell focuses will hurt.

Psychic warriors are pretty good here - they can summon psionic weapons and armor, give themselves natural attacks, and do a whole bunch of other stuff.

[Extra Anchovies]

I would like to make a char that doesn't need any items in order to be functional. I want for one time to play a character that doesn't worry/need/motivates from gp. So the two things that came to mind was vow of poverty and and unarmed dmg !!If you think that Undmg will work better with some other class , i am open to suggestions ! About the concept i haven't think something specific yet since i am waiting to decide about my build in order to make a concept/background that suits my choices !!!

If you want a character who isn't item-dependent, you want a VoP Druid. It's the only way that I know of to get by without magic items.

[atemu1234]

If you want a character who isn't item-dependent, you want a VoP Druid. It's the only way that I know of to get by without magic items.

VoP Druid with Grafts, maybe?

[Grooke]

VoP can still use a non-masterwork weapon.
Is there a reason (other than fluff) why you don't want items? If they aren't available (low-budget campaign or something), then yeah, VoP is good, but its still better to be a caster than a mundane.

Druid is often mentioned as the most capable of pulling off VoP. Cleric can do it ok. Both of these can also fight in melee while being casters. In any event, talk to your DM about how strict he'll be with costly components (can use your party's, can't use them at all...).

Of course, all of these suggestions are based on the fact you say your party is pretty high-OP. If your usual wizards were on par with the group's mundanes, you can play a VoP monk and it shouldn't be a problem.

[Red Fel]

I would like to make a char that doesn't need any items in order to be functional. I want for one time to play a character that doesn't worry/need/motivates from gp. So the two things that came to mind was vow of poverty and and unarmed dmg !!If you think that Undmg will work better with some other class , i am open to suggestions ! About the concept i haven't think something specific yet since i am waiting to decide about my build in order to make a concept/background that suits my choices !!!

Monk unarmed damage faces a lot of obstacles, two in particular. First, as is the problem with unarmed damage generally, it lacks the enhancement bonuses that make weapons viable in the later game. Hit point damage quickly gives way to other functions that can be tacked onto your gear. You need an item, such as the Necklace of Natural Weapons, to pull that off.

Second, it's on the Monk chassis, which is weak and broken in lots of bad ways. Frankly, a Fighter with IUS and SUS can do better than a Monk at unarmed combat.

Vow of Poverty is another problem. Plus side, it gives you some bonuses. Minus side, there are many important abilities you need in the later game. Look at these lists (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items). These are abilities that will save your life, and unless you're a spellcaster and can replicate them, you need items to get these benefits. Vow of Poverty simply doesn't give you enough of a benefit to make it worthwhile, generally.

Now, if you want to play a character who uses an absolute minimum of gear, there are a number of options. Incarnum classes can give you decent versatility, and when you bind soulmelds you'll be blocking magic item slots anyway. Warlocks are fantastic at any optimization level, and aren't generally gear dependent at all. Psions are deliciously capable of major cheese - you can play an Awakened animal if you want to, gear isn't a requirement. (I'm a fan of Tibbit Psions, personally.) And of course, the Druid is the staple for overpowered and under-geared. You don't need weapons or armor when you're a bear riding a bear whilst summoning bears.

You'll notice that most of these suggestions are casters in some way. There's a reason for that. Casters depend less on their gear than non-casters. Non-casters suffer badly without magical assistance, and magic items and equipment are how they try to make up the loss.

Short story: At mid-optimization levels and higher, a Monk - particularly a VoP Monk - will have a difficult time keeping up and remaining relevant. If your goal is to minimize gear dependency, I'd strongly advise you to look elsewhere. If, on the other hand, your goal is to make an awesome Monk, it can be done.

[Venger]

Monks don't work outside of low-op. Same goes for Vow of Poverty, although a VoP Druid can hold up in mid-op.

monks don't work well inside low op (monks don't work)

druid is automatically mid/high op, no matter one's inexperience.


If you want a character who isn't item-dependent, you want a VoP Druid. It's the only way that I know of to get by without magic items.

VOP totemist is also good, especially for a new player since there's no spell list to keep track of.

[daremetoidareyo]

If equipmentlessness is your prime, you can try

human or xeph soulknife 2/ninja 1/soulknife 2 with
1: sacred vow, vow of povery, nymphs kiss + flaw feats + hidden talent if you can get it to replace wild talent
2: favored of the companions
3: psionic weapon
4: Intuitive attack

Make your dex and wisdom as high as manageable
This will put your ac at 10 + 4 dex +3 ninja skillz + 5 vow =AC22
and if you have a 15 minute adventuring day your big damage will be: 4d6 +1d8 +3.

A better option would be unarmed swordsage VOP, but that is TOB, which some DMs hate, and it has some necessary homegame adjudication.

[Karl Aegis]

Casters still want to have material components and the use of their (divine) focus components. Vow of Poverty prevents the ownership and use of these items.

[Grooke]

Casters still want to have material components and the use of their (divine) focus components. Vow of Poverty prevents the ownership and use of these items.

They can use inexpensive components (they can carry a components pouch), and can sacrifice exp for expensive ones (or also if the DM allows, cast spells using the party's components to benefit them and the greater good).

Since most spells need material components OR a focus (putting components pouch and divine focus on equal ground), it is often taken as an oversight that VoP allows one and not the other. If you're playing with someone who absolutely forbids a divine focus, the Worldly Focus feat gets rid of the requirement.

[eggynack]

Casters still want to have material components and the use of their (divine) focus components. Vow of Poverty prevents the ownership and use of these items.
I think valueless components are safe, and you may be able to put focus stuff on a staff or something. But really, these are just the basic structural allowances that the DM has to give to make VoP work. Cause if the DM wants to play by strict RAW, then a VoP character can't do stuff like looking at a painting, or opening a door, or any number of other crazy mundane things, without losing the vow.

Anyway, yeah, if you want VoP, then druid is definitely the best option, and monk is very much not a good choice. This is for a number of important reasons. First, druids can operate effectively without items. Druids naturally have the resources needed to fly, or accomplish goals, or do most anything on the lists of necessary magic items (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?187851-3-5-Lists-of-Necessary-Magic-Items), and doing that stuff natively is critical if there isn't anything to augment that capability. Second, druids are incentivized to not use items. Wild shape makes item use tricky, though definitely not impossible, and getting around that is very convenient. You're just getting less value out of items normally, though druids absolutely get massive value from items.

Finally, druids get a lot of value from vow of poverty. The druid style of combat, largely based around natural weapons, is very much aided by the feat, and druids, between exalted wild shape, exalted companion, and words of creation, get the most potent exalted feats in existence. This is critical, because it means that you're not running out of good exalted feats nearly as quickly, which is a massive problem, and it also means that you're getting something at least kinda worth it. The overall impact of vow of poverty on a druid is somewhat negative, at least if you're optimizing your item choice a decent amount, but it's not nearly as negative as it is on most other classes, especially the monk.

[True believer]

First of all thank you for all your very useful input.

Now, I dont want to play any casting class due to the fact that i was playing casters for a large amount of time so i need to try something new.

I am intrigued about the Unrm dmg so i would like to try something around that.

I decided not to use the VoP due to the reasons you mention above. Any suggestions about a mid-op character that focuses on Unrm dmg ????

[Flickerdart]

druid is automatically mid/high op, no matter one's inexperience.
Not true - you can build the most uber druid, give it to a novice player, and then have them spend their entire life wildshaping into frogs and riding on their sparrow companion.

[Bad Wolf]

Pretty sure VoP is an exalted feat.

[Lerondiel]

As others have made clear, Vow of Poverty puts you behind the 8 ball, so if your main goal is to run with optimised players you need a full caster or shifter.

But if the flavour of the monk is really calling to you, a better question to ask the playground is what prestige classes to put on the monk.
(If your DM understands the limits of monks, he should be agreeable to making it a full BAB class so you qualify for the prestige classes without delays.)

Sacred Fist & Kensai are examples that could fit your theme, but give the character some more options.


EDIT: Shouldnt have stopped for a coffee while writing this....pretty redundant now

[eggynack]

Not true - you can build the most uber druid, give it to a novice player, and then have them spend their entire life wildshaping into frogs and riding on their sparrow companion.
True, though the inverse is also accurate. You can build the most craptacular druid ever, give it to an expert, and then have them spend their entire life wild shaping into desmodu hunting bats, and shooting a selection of powerful spells backed up by a fleshraker dinosaur. Any given druid is thus incredibly powerful by way of character sheet, and varies a lot in power level based on play ability.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Not true - you can build the most uber druid, give it to a novice player, and then have them spend their entire life wildshaping into frogs and riding on their sparrow companion.

That isn't possible pre-epic since you'd need Diminutive Wild-shape to turn into a frog (I couldn't find frogs in the SRD so I went with toad)*


*[/Completely missing the point]

[Karl Aegis]

There's probably a monk build lying around the forums that can defeat all the Elder Evils. I think that would be a good start. Otherwise, you're looking at a build that uses weird rules interactions where your monk throws himself at the ceiling and slow falls on top of enemies, essentially killing things by sitting on them several times per turn. Personally, I think it's goofy.

[Grooke]

To get back on topic, the Swordsage (Tome of Battle) has an unarmed variant. The class itself is solid.

[Dusk Eclipse]

There's probably a monk build lying around the forums that can defeat all the Elder Evils. I think that would be a good start. Otherwise, you're looking at a build that uses weird rules interactions where your monk throws himself at the ceiling and slow falls on top of enemies, essentially killing things by sitting on them several times per turn. Personally, I think it's goofy.

Tippy's Terrifically Terrible Trial (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial)

[Grooke]

Rubik just posted his build a few thread down. The specific post is here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=15474863&postcount=732)

[eggynack]

That isn't possible pre-epic since you'd need Diminutive Wild-shape to turn into a frog (I couldn't find frogs in the SRD so I went with toad)*

Nah, he was secretly referring to the dire toad from the MM II, which is medium. It's so secret that it was probably a secret even to himself. Also, I cannot find frogs either, except for the apocalypse frog swarm, even with a somewhat larger search radius. Kinda weird. Alternatively, I guess the character in question could be running halfing druid substitution levels or something, which gets early diminutive, but that's not a typical characteristic of a high-op druid. The point, for it is always the point, is that druids are cool.

[atemu1234]

There's probably a monk build lying around the forums that can defeat all the Elder Evils. I think that would be a good start. Otherwise, you're looking at a build that uses weird rules interactions where your monk throws himself at the ceiling and slow falls on top of enemies, essentially killing things by sitting on them several times per turn. Personally, I think it's goofy.

Monk 1 / Wizard 19. Done.

[Dusk Eclipse]

That isn't a monk build though >_>

[atemu1234]

That isn't a monk build though >_>

It is, however, probably the best monk build.

[Venger]

Not true - you can build the most uber druid, give it to a novice player, and then have them spend their entire life wildshaping into frogs and riding on their sparrow companion.

a druid not using their spells or wildshape? that's impossible!

I wanted to give the OP a little more credit than wotc's playtesters. :smalltongue:

[atemu1234]

a druid not using their spells or wildshape? that's impossible!

I wanted to give the OP a little more credit than wotc's playtesters. :smalltongue:

That reminds me of something I once told one of my newest players, after their first session.

He said to me, "I don't know much about this game."

My reply was, "Well, look on the bright side. You know more about it now than the people who designed it."

My games tend to go fairly High-OP, due to my bad habit of helping players build their characters (since I've taught/am-still-teaching all but two of them, it can't be helped). This player actually has wound up being my favorite pupil. We're all good friends, but he's probably the one who took to the game the most.

[Flickerdart]

True, though the inverse is also accurate. You can build the most craptacular druid ever, give it to an expert, and then have them spend their entire life wild shaping into desmodu hunting bats, and shooting a selection of powerful spells backed up by a fleshraker dinosaur. Any given druid is thus incredibly powerful by way of character sheet, and varies a lot in power level based on play ability.

Well sure, but the argument was that there is no such thing as a low-op druid.

[holywhippet]

Sacred Fist & Kensai are examples that could fit your theme, but give the character some more options.


I would second going the sacred fist route. Vow of poverty isn't a as much of a problem since you can't wear armor or use weapons and most of the other bonuses you get from equipment you can get from spells. If you take a cleric with the spell domain you also get mage armor and anyspell which will help you out a lot. Sacred fist also also better than a standard monk since you get full BAB progression.

[Bad Wolf]

VoP is an exalted feat. As you're playing in an evil campaign, being LG among NE, CE, and LE won't end very well.

[atemu1234]

VoP is an exalted feat. As you're playing in an evil campaign, being LG among NE, CE, and LE won't end very well.

Exalted is Paladin Code on +5 Holy Steroids, so yeah, this won't work out.

[Thurbane]

If it hasn't already been mentioned, a Tashalatora Monk or Enlightened Fist build might be a better option for VoP than straight Monk.


VoP is an exalted feat. As you're playing in an evil campaign, being LG among NE, CE, and LE won't end very well.

That's what I thought at first reading the OP, but I think he means his character is entering an evil camp (to fight the evil people that live in that camp). I may be wrong.

[Fouredged Sword]

If you want high damage and being a monk, here is my suggestion. You want to play a warforged, and your target is the feat beast strike. VoP is a trap, so avoid it. Instead, you want to go fighter and pick up the feat supreme unarmed strike to get a monk unarmed damage progression.

You want to dip monk 2 for evasion and wis to AC. You want to get a battle fist to up your unarmed damage to the large progression. You then want to pick up the beast strike feat as soon as you can (level 6). This adds your slam damage (1d10) to ALL of your unarmed strikes.

It get's crazy when you buy your party wizard a few pearls of power (3rd) so he is willing to keep your battlefist enchanted with greater mighty wallop. That 2d10 base damage will quickly turn into 16d6 damage each hit.

Now, if you use the focused attack ACF for monk, you can make a full round action attack that deals twice your normal damage. This means you are looking at 32d6 damage. Now, you will do this double damage for all attacks for the remainder of your round, so pick up combat reflexes and don't dump dex. Now pick up Robilar's gambit. Anyone who wants to trade swings with you while you are throwing around 32d6+2xstr damage each swing is welcome to try it and see how it works for them.

[Red Fel]

I am intrigued about the Unrm dmg so i would like to try something around that.

I decided not to use the VoP due to the reasons you mention above. Any suggestions about a mid-op character that focuses on Unrm dmg ????

As others have mentioned, Unarmed Swordsage is a dramatic improvement over Monk, and in many ways what Monk wants to be when it grows up. Alternatively, Battle Dancer is a great Cha-based Monk with some neat tumbling-based skills.

But my favorite build is a combination of Warblade and Totemist. Using a Dragonblood race to gain access to Draconic soulmelds, you arm yourself with a boatload of natural weapons. Load up with an Amulet of Mighty Fists to increase their power and treat them all as magical. Use the Stormguard Warrior feat ability Combat Rhythm, and every other turn each of your natural weapons takes a massive boost to damage. Dip Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian 1 to gain Pounce, and you can basically reduce an enemy to a fine red paste every other turn, using just your fists and an array of blue glowing claws, tails, and spikes.

[Segev]

Not the most optimal of builds, but you might enjoy Totemist/Barbarian->Bear Warrior->War Shaper. Totemist will get you a nice number of natural attacks early on, while Barbarian->Bear Warrior will let you rage and eventually turn into a bear. War Shaper will let you get ALL of the natural attacks, and make those you already have bigger and better. So you can turn into a raging bear with magic auras and a dozen natural attacks that engages in body horror to make Mordu look cuddly.

[Urpriest]

If the OP wants an unarmed character with no casting, probably the best options are Swordsage (already mentioned) and Barbarian. For Barbarians, there's a whole heap of ACFs that turn you into a punching machine. The question becomes, how broad are the sources you have access to? Is Dragon Magazine an option?

[Ruethgar]

If the OP wants an unarmed character with no casting, probably the best options are Swordsage (already mentioned) and Barbarian. For Barbarians, there's a whole heap of ACFs that turn you into a punching machine. The question becomes, how broad are the sources you have access to? Is Dragon Magazine an option?

To expand on this:
Spirit Lion Totem Barbarian(Complete Champion)- Remove Fast Movement, add Pounce
Dashing Step Barbarian(Dragon Magazine 349 p92)- Remove Trapsense, add AC while charging
City Brawler Barbarian(Dragon Magazine 349 p92)- Remove Medium Shield and Martial Proficiency, add Improved Unarmed Attack and the Two Weapon Fighting(Unarmed only) line to Barbarian progression.

The Kensai(Dragon Magazine 310) can be nice, just pick the Ward Cestus(hand wrap with metal backing) as your weapon. Five levels gets you full BaB, 2 feats and +2 Attack and Damage when using a Ward Cestus. You can use those two feats to get a massive flurry of misses(+1 attack for -3 to hit and +2 attacks -6 to hit), or you know, useful things. If nothing else a one level dip boosts your hit and damage by one and gives you proficiency in an enchantable unarmed attack.

Moon Warded Ranger and Swordsage 2 if you want to be MAD like a Monk with Wisdom to AC twice and the allowance for light armor still(I would see about the MSRD coat, only +1 AC, but come on, don't you want a trench coat?).

Of course must have feats are Superior Unarmed Strike and Circle Kick(this actually makes you able to AoE if poorly). Also with Circle Kick, Improved Trip, and Evasive Reflexes you can have super cleave. This isn't really suggesting a build but the options here maintain a non-magical(save Swordsage) punchy character that would probably turn out better than a Monk if for nothing other than the near full BaB and high HD.

If you really wanted VoP, I would suggest trying to get Prestige Races from a Dragon Magazine(not sure which one atm) to substitute some of the more severely lacking qualities from any of the lists of required magical items.

[True believer]

Once again thank you all for your advises.



I am thinking about: Batledancer1 /Unarmed Swordsage 19

This will work ??? is there any prestige class that will go well with this build ??? I found a couple but neither of them worth loosing maneuver levels.

[Ruethgar]

Remember, Bloodline levels advance IL very nicely. They have a class feature that gives you a 1:1 IL progression and as a non-initiating class give 1/2 an IL per level, so add a Major Bloodline to your Battledancer/Swordsage and you have an IL of 24 so you have some to spare if you really wanted a dip into something else. Also note that Unarmed Swordsage may require some DM adjudication, for example their Wisdom to AC only works in light armor but you are not proficient. Also Superior Unarmed Strike does nothing to advance your unarmed progression.

[atemu1234]

Remember, Bloodline levels advance IL very nicely. They have a class feature that gives you a 1:1 IL progression and as a non-initiating class give 1/2 an IL per level, so add a Major Bloodline to your Battledancer/Swordsage and you have an IL of 24 so you have some to spare if you really wanted a dip into something else. Also note that Unarmed Swordsage may require some DM adjudication, for example their Wisdom to AC only works in light armor but you are not proficient. Also Superior Unarmed Strike does nothing to advance your unarmed progression.

Barring a simple DM fix. Which isn't uncommon.

[Ruethgar]

Still +2 or +3 for 3000 XP isn't terrible(+2 if by class only, +3 by class feature only). Plus you have the skill rank cap increase if you find a PrC you want to try to get early.

[Urpriest]

Once again thank you all for your advises.



I am thinking about: Batledancer1 /Unarmed Swordsage 19

This will work ??? is there any prestige class that will go well with this build ??? I found a couple but neither of them worth loosing maneuver levels.

Sounds reasonable, though I don't think you really need the level in Battledancer unless you have both a great Cha and a great Wis. Swordsage doesn't really need prestige classes, it's a fine class all the way to 20.