Awakened Zombies, double HD on class levels or no?

[SkipSandwich]

Just had a thought, in Libre Mortis is the spell Awaken Undead, which works pretty much identically to the druid's awaken spell (biggest difference is it adds some turn resistance IIRC as I don't have the book on hand to reference).

Now, Zombies ordinarily advice by hit die, which are then doubled as per the Zombie template, and cannot advance by class levels. However, an awakened zombie is an intelligent creature, and so can take whatever class levels it wants. Should an awakened zombie benefit from 2d12 HD per level when advancing by class? Keep in mind they still have the Partial Actions only drawback limiting them to a single move or standard action per round.

Under either interpretation, (double HD on class levels or single HD), what sort of character could you build as an awakened zombie that would not be completely crippled by the Partial Actions Only trait? I'm thinking either some sort of mounted charger or a psion share pain/vigor user that acts as a damage sink for the rest of the party.

[KillianHawkeye]

Um... no. Normal zombies do not advance by Hit Die. They do not advance at all, because they are mindless creatures. They have a certain number of Hit Dice based on the creature that they were in life (2d12 for every racial Hit Die of the base creature).

Using awaken undead on a zombie will give it the ability to advance, at which point it does so just like any other intelligent creature: at a rate of one Hit Die per character level. The zombie template's modification of the base creature's racial Hit Dice has no further effect after the zombie is awakened.

[ShurikVch]

Actually, standard 1 HD Humanoid will keep some of CF as a Zombie: Zombie Rogue still have SA, and Zombie Wizard may still have a Familiar

[Uncle Pine]

Actually, standard 1 HD Humanoid will keep some of CF as a Zombie: Zombie Rogue still have SA, and Zombie Wizard may still have a Familiar

Uh... No. SA is a special attack (see for example Rakshasa, Naztharune, MMIII 136), so a zombie Rogue would lose it, while Summon Familiar doesn't improve a Wizard melee or ranged attack in any way (unless I missed a familiar that grants +X damage to attacks), so a zombie Wizard would lose it as well.


@OP: As KillianHawkeye already stated, standard zombies have "Advancement: As base creature, but double Hit Dice (maximum 20), or — if the base creature advances by character class", while awakened zombies advance as standard intelligent creatures: 1 class level at a time.

[SkipSandwich]

From the SRD

Wyvern Zombie
Size/Type: Large Undead
Hit Dice: 14d12+3 (94 hp)
Initiative: +0
Speed: 20 ft. (4 squares; can’t run), fly 60 ft. (poor)
Armor Class: 21 (-1 size, +12 natural), touch 9, flat-footed 21
Base Attack/Grapple: +7/+16
Attack: Slam +11 melee (2d6+7) or talons +11 melee (2d6+5)
Full Attack: Slam +11 melee (2d6+7) or talons +11 melee (2d6+5)
Space/Reach:10 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks:—
Special Qualities:Single actions only, damage reduction 5/slashing, darkvision 60 ft., undead traits
Saves:Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +9
Abilities:Str 21, Dex 10, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 1
Skills: —
Feats: Toughness
Environment:Warm hills
Organization: Any
Challenge Rating:4
Treasure: None
Alignment:Always neutral evil
Advancement:16-20 HD (Huge)
Level Adjustment:—


Even without awakening, a zombie of a creature that advances by hit dice can still advance by hit dice. However, an awakened Zombie can also advance by class levels, the same as any other intelligent creature.

from the zombie template:

Hit Dice

Drop any Hit Dice from class levels (to a minimum of 1), double the number of Hit Dice left, and raise them to d12s. If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell.

Advancement

As base creature, but double Hit Dice (maximum 20), or — if the base creature advances by character class.


while its clear the process of becoming a zombie eliminates all class levels, the double hit dice for advancement continues to apply for zombies with the ability to advance.

Given that, would it not be unreasonable for an awakened zombie PC to also have 2d12 hit dice per level? If you don't see it as RAW, would you grant it as a house-rule?

Zombie Template
Pros
+2 Strength
Undead Immunities
DR 5/Slashing
d12 hit dice (doubled?)
Natural Armor Bonus

Cons
-2 Dex
Partial Actions Only
Turning Vulnerability
Toughness as a forced feat at 1st level (RAW does not say it's a bonus feat despite mindless creatures not qualifying for feats)
Minimum 2d12 Undead Racial Hit die before class levels

[Urpriest]

Under either interpretation, (double HD on class levels or single HD), what sort of character could you build as an awakened zombie that would not be completely crippled by the Partial Actions Only trait? I'm thinking either some sort of mounted charger or a psion share pain/vigor user that acts as a damage sink for the rest of the party.

The problem is, even an Awakened Zombie still has no level adjustment. So an awakened zombie with class levels can't act as anything "for the rest of the party", because it's an NPC.

That said, if you're making an Awakened Zombie with class levels into a foe for your players to fight, a charger might work well, since Zombies can still make partial charges.

Edit: Also, the only reason Zombies have double HD advancement is because you can make a Zombie out of a creature that has been advanced, so there needs to be double the room. Remember, monster advancement is part of the process of creating the monster, it's not something that happens over the course of the game.

[Evan Epis]

Edit: Also, the only reason Zombies have double HD advancement is because you can make a Zombie out of a creature that has been advanced, so there needs to be double the room. Remember, monster advancement is part of the process of creating the monster, it's not something that happens over the course of the game.

Why's that? As ingame days/years/time pass(es), monsters advance, normally.

[Flickerdart]

Zombie HDs are doubled only when the zombie is created, not when it's advanced (because that doesn't make any sense - you add the amount of HD that you add).

[Urpriest]

Why's that? As ingame days/years/time pass(es), monsters advance, normally.

Not by default. Advanced monsters are used to represent more powerful versions of the base monsters. A DM can certainly use them for an older monster, but they could just as easily use them for a more primal/pure version of the base monster, or for an Uruk-Hai-style engineered superior specimen, or a freak of nature, or a particular tribe or tradition...

Compare it to gaining levels, where there is a detailed system for how much XP you gain, or age categories, which have a set rate. Monster advancement, except for a few specific monsters that advance in a nonstandard way, isn't explicitly tied to age.


Zombie HDs are doubled only when the zombie is created, not when it's advanced (because that doesn't make any sense - you add the amount of HD that you add).

Eh, sort of. The proper way to create an Advanced Zombie X isn't to Advance a Zombie X, it's to Advance an X, then make it into a Zombie. A PC creating an Advanced Zombie X will always create one that way. So in that sense, zombie HD are indeed doubled when it is advanced, but that's because you apply the template after applying advancement.

[Evan Epis]

Not by default. Advanced monsters are used to represent more powerful versions of the base monsters. A DM can certainly use them for an older monster, but they could just as easily use them for a more primal/pure version of the base monster, or for an Uruk-Hai-style engineered superior specimen, or a freak of nature, or a particular tribe or tradition...

I always thought monsters presented in the MMs were the average/typical/adult/mature creature of its kind. I even recall examples of "baby - monsters" presented in encounters that had fewer HD than their parents.

And, in fact, some of them, by default, do gain extra HD. Take True Dragons for example that are bound to gain extra HD as they age.

Others such as demons (or was it devils?) via the souls they collect and the power it gives them, not only advance in HD but they change their form.

Creatures like the barghest have special abilities that allows them to increase their HD and "advance".

Many creatures "advance" as game-time passes, some of them at a slower rate, while others at a faster one. Claiming that monster advancement is part of the process of creating the monster and that it's not something that happens over the course of the game, is wrong.

[SkipSandwich]

Okay, I looks like I was misunderstanding the advancement rules, and my idea just won't work as written. Thinking more about it, it wouldn't work as a houserule either since those extra HD would come with undead BAB, Skills and Saves.

At least I can still whip up an interesting encounter by having an Awakened Zombie Ape/Fighter X with a Lance, Mounted Combat, Spirited Charge and Ride-by Attack ride an Advanced Zombie Giant Eagle into battle. For extra fun Awaken the Giant Eagle zombie and give it Wingover, Hover, Flyby attack and Improved Flyby attack. Extra Zombie HD mean plenty of feats after awakening. (Sadly, Tyranosaurus have too many HD to rise as zombies, or I'd have gone with that)

[jiriku]

Au contraire. The zombie template states, "If the base creature has more than 10 Hit Dice (not counting those gained with experience), it can’t be made into a zombie with the animate dead spell." However, it says nothing about the limitations for zombies that are not created via animate dead. Consider the Fell Animate feat in Libris Mortis. Fell Animate merely states, "you can't create more Hit Dice of undead than twice your caster level". Thus, a character with caster level 18th or higher could animate a tyrannosaurus using a Fell Animate spell. So please, zombify that t-rex!

[Telonius]

EDIT: Nevermind, reading fail.

EDIT2: Looking at it a bit more ... the Wyvern example seems to argue against the idea that a Zombie can gain Undead hit dice after creation. The zombie starts out at 14 HD, but the advancement listed starts at 16 HD - meaning a 15-HD zombie isn't something that's supposed to exist. Wyvern is the only creature (out of the example zombies) that has an Advancement other than "by character class." (Other than Gray Render, which would be an illegal target for Animate Dead if you advanced it). Wyvern would become Huge at 8HD, matching the Huge size at 16 for the zombie version.

[ShurikVch]

Uh... No. SA is a special attack (see for example Rakshasa, Naztharune, MMIII 136), so a zombie Rogue would lose it,It's just an examples (unless you have a RAW to prove it).
Sneak Attack can be Special Attack, Special Quality, or even both
while Summon Familiar doesn't improve a Wizard melee or ranged attack in any way (unless I missed a familiar that grants +X damage to attacks)Aid Another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother)

Partial Actions OnlyFast Zombie template from Libris Mortis
Minimum 2d12 Undead Racial Hit die before class levelsIt's not necessary a racial HD; Zombie of "standard" 1 HD Humanoid (for example) will have 2 class HD

The problem is, even an Awakened Zombie still has no level adjustment.Article in Dragon #293 give ECL 5 to Medium Zombie, thus LA: +3
Overtaxed, as usual, but still...

[Urpriest]

I always thought monsters presented in the MMs were the average/typical/adult/mature creature of its kind. I even recall examples of "baby - monsters" presented in encounters that had fewer HD than their parents.

I've bolded the key point here. Advanced monsters can be older members of their kind...but they can also be atypical, or above-average members of their kind. Advancing a monster is a way to represent that a monster is older, or stronger, or otherwise atypical. It isn't something that happens to monsters after the DM has statted them up.



And, in fact, some of them, by default, do gain extra HD. Take True Dragons for example that are bound to gain extra HD as they age.

Others such as demons (or was it devils?) via the souls they collect and the power it gives them, not only advance in HD but they change their form.

Creatures like the barghest have special abilities that allows them to increase their HD and "advance".

There's this phrase, "the exception that proves the rule". It gets a lot of flack, but the core point is that sometimes an exception lets you know that a rule exists because of how explicit an exception it is. In this case, look at your examples: Dragons need a special table that tells you what they gain at each age category, while Barghests and Redcaps follow completely different trajectories. If there were one universal way for monsters to advance in HD as they aged, neither would be necessary: these monsters could just use the normal form of HD advancement. Instead, they have alternate advancement rules to represent the fact that it can actually come up in a game.

Devils and Demons are a particularly fun example of this, because they don't need to advance in HD to gain rank, and sometimes an increase in rank actually corresponds to a decrease in HD.



Many creatures "advance" as game-time passes, some of them at a slower rate, while others at a faster one. Claiming that monster advancement is part of the process of creating the monster and that it's not something that happens over the course of the game, is wrong.

Again, older versions of creatures can be represented by advanced creatures, but that doesn't mean that creatures advance after the DM has created them. If you fight a monster early in a campaign, and then fight "the same monster" years later, the DM can represent the older version as an advanced monster, but they are under no obligation to give it the same feats or skill points as the younger version. Stat-wise, it's an entirely new creature.


It's just an examples (unless you have a RAW to prove it).
Sneak Attack can be Special Attack, Special Quality, or even bothAid Another (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/combat/specialAttacks.htm#aidAnother)
Fast Zombie template from Libris MortisIt's not necessary a racial HD; Zombie of "standard" 1 HD Humanoid (for example) will have 2 class HD
Article in Dragon #293 give ECL 5 to Medium Zombie, thus LA: +3
Overtaxed, as usual, but still...

Medium Zombies don't exist in 3.5, they were a 3.0 thing. 3.5 just has some Zombies that happen to be Medium, but Medium isn't in the creature's name anymore.

[ShurikVch]

Medium Zombies don't exist in 3.5, they were a 3.0 thing. 3.5 just has some Zombies that happen to be Medium, but Medium isn't in the creature's name anymore.Medium Zombie had 2 HD; the rest is irrelevant for this thread

[Urpriest]

Medium Zombie had 2 HD; the rest is irrelevant for this thread

The rest is completely relevant, there's absolutely no reason for two zombies with completely different ability score adjustments, natural weapon loadouts, and so on, to have the same LA.

[ShurikVch]

The rest is completely relevant, there's absolutely no reason for two zombies with completely different ability score adjustments, natural weapon loadouts, and so on, to have the same LA."LA: +3" means "+3 to current LA", not "+3 full stop and no matter what" :smallamused:
Medium Zombie from 3.0 is virtually equal to example of Human Commoner Zombie from 3.5 (differ by 1 Str)

[Cantard]

ShurikVch,

Sorry to interject, but I wanted to point out something I think you missed about awaken undead. All you get from this spell is 1d6+4 Int, weapon and armor proficiencies of the base creature, extraordinary racial abilities of the base creature (scent for example), +2 will vs control undead and +2 turn resistance. Sneak attack and other class features which are not racial would not return until you retook a class level that gave them to you.

For my own uses I go with the spell text and assign no level adjustment, especially as you are forced by the template and spell to hit the ground running with 10 or less Int, 10 Wis, and 1 Cha by default with the massive reaction penalty that implies.

Now Awaken Plant/Animal would be another kettle of fish with Int, Wis, and Cha being set at 3d6 for a possible 18/18/18 mental stat block. Can we say Bearington the Wizard?

[atemu1234]

ShurikVch,

Sorry to interject, but I wanted to point out something I think you missed about awaken undead. All you get from this spell is 1d6+4 Int, weapon and armor proficiencies of the base creature, extraordinary racial abilities of the base creature (scent for example), +2 will vs control undead and +2 turn resistance. Sneak attack and other class features which are not racial would not return until you retook a class level that gave them to you.

For my own uses I go with the spell text and assign no level adjustment, especially as you are forced by the template and spell to hit the ground running with 10 or less Int, 10 Wis, and 1 Cha by default with the massive reaction penalty that implies.

Now Awaken Plant/Animal would be another kettle of fish with Int, Wis, and Cha being set at 3d6 for a possible 18/18/18 mental stat block. Can we say Bearington the Wizard?

SIR Bearington, if you will. (https://i.imgur.com/wkZhp.png)

[Cantard]

SIR Bearington, if you will. (https://i.imgur.com/wkZhp.png)

Of course, my apologies. Sir Bearington. I failed to make my sense motive and spot rolls against his prodigious bluff and disguise self rolls and nearly mistook him for some large hairy commoner. Clearly he is a gentlemen of excellent breeding...though he does growl at his dinner companions and refuses to both sit in a chair or use a soup spoon.

[Urpriest]

"LA: +3" means "+3 to current LA", not "+3 full stop and no matter what" :smallamused:
Medium Zombie from 3.0 is virtually equal to example of Human Commoner Zombie from 3.5 (differ by 1 Str)

What if you're playing a Medium race with more than one RHD, though? The 3.5 Zombie template changes your number of RHD, which is another reason why it probably shouldn't have a normal LA adjustment.


ShurikVch,

Sorry to interject, but I wanted to point out something I think you missed about awaken undead. All you get from this spell is 1d6+4 Int, weapon and armor proficiencies of the base creature, extraordinary racial abilities of the base creature (scent for example), +2 will vs control undead and +2 turn resistance. Sneak attack and other class features which are not racial would not return until you retook a class level that gave them to you.

For my own uses I go with the spell text and assign no level adjustment, especially as you are forced by the template and spell to hit the ground running with 10 or less Int, 10 Wis, and 1 Cha by default with the massive reaction penalty that implies.

Now Awaken Plant/Animal would be another kettle of fish with Int, Wis, and Cha being set at 3d6 for a possible 18/18/18 mental stat block. Can we say Bearington the Wizard?

Whether you assign any level adjustment from the spell is irrelevant, the Zombie template already gives you level adjustment -- and Awaken doesn't explicitly change that.

[Cantard]

Urpriest

"Whether you assign any level adjustment from the spell is irrelevant, the Zombie template already gives you level adjustment -- and Awaken doesn't explicitly change that."

My apologies for the confusion. My statement was referring to if I assign a level adjustment to the spell. I would, however, require the standard adjustment for the zombies 2 racial die.

[ShurikVch]

Sneak attack and other class features which are not racial would not return until you retook a class level that gave them to you.Emancipated Spawn PrC (Savage Species)

[Cantard]

Emancipated Spawn PrC (Savage Species)

Ok...however this is a prestige class, which is in addition to the discussion of a Zombie template and the awaken undead spell. Considering you get the class features and abilities of your past life (which unless you got turned in game could be anything of any level you dreamed up in your back story) I'd be careful in allowing this.

[Urpriest]

Urpriest

"Whether you assign any level adjustment from the spell is irrelevant, the Zombie template already gives you level adjustment -- and Awaken doesn't explicitly change that."

My apologies for the confusion. My statement was referring to if I assign a level adjustment to the spell. I would, however, require the standard adjustment for the zombies 2 racial die.

What I mean is, even if you assigned a level adjustment to the spell, it would add on to the Zombie template's level adjustment line, which says it has none (not zero, but no level adjustment at all), and you would still have a creature with no level adjustment, and thus unplayable. You'd have to make the spell explicitly change that aspect of the Zombie template.

[Cantard]

What I mean is, even if you assigned a level adjustment to the spell, it would add on to the Zombie template's level adjustment line, which says it has none (not zero, but no level adjustment at all), and you would still have a creature with no level adjustment, and thus unplayable. You'd have to make the spell explicitly change that aspect of the Zombie template.

According to the Monster Manual the Dash just means the creature isn't meant to be a PC and should be better used as cohort or familiar instead. Considering a Zombie is a mindless undead the reasoning here is obvious. However, if you want to contrast that to a Ghoul (also dash) we can play them in Liberis Mortis. So I don't view a dash as a a mark of unplayability.

[KillianHawkeye]

According to the Monster Manual the Dash just means the creature isn't meant to be a PC and should be better used as cohort or familiar instead. Considering a Zombie is a mindless undead the reasoning here is obvious. However, if you want to contrast that to a Ghoul (also dash) we can play them in Liberis Mortis. So I don't view a dash as a a mark of unplayability.

You can only play as a ghoul because Libris Mortis retconned the level adjustments of a hand-full of previously unplayable undead creatures. You may have noticed that zombie was not given a listing on that same table.

[SkipSandwich]

You can only play as a ghoul because Libris Mortis retconned the level adjustments of a hand-full of previously unplayable undead creatures. You may have noticed that zombie was not given a listing on that same table.

Libre Mortis did set a precedent in allowing players to play as intelligent undead, which awakened zombies and skeletons definitely qualify as.


So what sort of LA would be appropriate? I'd lean towards +1 LA, mostly because of the Damage Resistance and Natural Armor on top of undead immunities. Zombies might be permissible at LA +0 due to Partial Actions Only, but Skelletons for sure would need some sort of adjustment.

[KillianHawkeye]

Libre Mortis did set a precedent in allowing players to play as intelligent undead, which awakened zombies and skeletons definitely qualify as.

Um, no, that precedent was set by the Monster Manual, which gives us Level Adjustments for things like Liches, Vampires, and Ghosts.

Anyway, if you really want to allow awakened zombies/skeletons in your own games, I'd compare them against the Necropolitan to determine the appropriate Level Adjustment.

[atemu1234]

Also, Libris Mortis. It's Latin (albeit horrible latin), as opposed to the spanish or portugese I think you're basing your spelling off of.

[KillianHawkeye]

Also, Libris Mortis. It's Latin (albeit horrible latin), as opposed to the spanish or portugese I think you're basing your spelling off of.

Come on, I don't think we need to resort to critiquing peoples' spelling right now, do we? He was close enough that I'm sure everyone with a passing knowledge of D&D 3.5 splatbooks knew what he meant.

Anyway, Libris Mortis itself justifies its title in a sidebar, saying that it comes from a collection of scrolls that are "Ex Libris Mortis," i.e. "from the books of the dead." It isn't referring to a single book.

[Urpriest]

Libre Mortis did set a precedent in allowing players to play as intelligent undead, which awakened zombies and skeletons definitely qualify as.


So what sort of LA would be appropriate? I'd lean towards +1 LA, mostly because of the Damage Resistance and Natural Armor on top of undead immunities. Zombies might be permissible at LA +0 due to Partial Actions Only, but Skelletons for sure would need some sort of adjustment.

While they're intelligent, Awakened Undead have weird interactions with point-buy and arrays, due to the way their scores are rolled. They're still not really built in a way that makes for sensible characters.

[SkipSandwich]

I don't feel it's as bad as all that, most classes have at least 1 dump stat anyway, and casters (druids especially) can dump most/all of thier non-spellcasting stats without much issue, so getting 1 extra dump stat or being able to dump a stat you normally can't isn't all that breaking. Besides, while the immunities are nice, the d12 HD on their own aren't quite enough to make up for the loss of bonus HP from con for melee types, making undead martial-types deceptively fragile at higher levels.

If you feel it's in issue in your games, you can always rule that PC's with a race with a -- ability have a lower point-buy allotment

[Urpriest]

I don't feel it's as bad as all that, most classes have at least 1 dump stat anyway, and casters (druids especially) can dump most/all of thier non-spellcasting stats without much issue, so getting 1 extra dump stat or being able to dump a stat you normally can't isn't all that breaking. Besides, while the immunities are nice, the d12 HD on their own aren't quite enough to make up for the loss of bonus HP from con for melee types, making undead martial-types deceptively fragile at higher levels.

If you feel it's in issue in your games, you can always rule that PC's with a race with a -- ability have a lower point-buy allotment

The problem isn't that it's more powerful than normal, just that it doesn't work well in general. It's using fairly clunky rules that really weren't meant or balanced for PC use, and there's zero incentive to do so because there are enough undead templates out there that actually are thought through for PC use that nobody would bother.