Need a Tactical genious/general class. (Pathfinder)

[Draconi Redfir]

So here's the thing. I'm going to be joining into a small evil-aligned campaign with some friends in a couple of months. I was having some trouble deciding whether or not to play a Hobgoblin, as a lawful, smart character is advised, or a Bugbear, as a beefy tank-type would also be helpful, if more chaotic. Eventually my DM allowed me to play as a Kriegbar (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=12316254&postcount=234) created by our own Bhu (With some minor tweaks to make in LA 0) and that was settled.

Unfortunately due to the nature of the campaign, we get one guaranteed 18, one guaranteed 8, and four 1d10+7's that we cannot change. i rolled a 16, a 17, an 8 and an 8. As a result i now have:

Str: 18
Dex: 10
Con: 19
Int: 8
Wis: 16
Cha: 6.

My character was originally a goblinoid general who attempted to lead an army into the local kingdom before being wiped out and captured, i'm claiming that he was hit pretty hard on the head, thus explaining his low intelligence for a supposedly tactical genius.

Now that the context is out of the way, here's the problem.

I was origonally playing as This version of the 3.5 Marshal (http://www.dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Marshal,_Retooled_(3.5_Class)) wich i didn't realize at the time was homebrewed, but the DM looked at it later on and didn't like the "Rally" ability effectively giving everyone sneak attack damage when he focused on it. So i tried for This Version of Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), which is both Charisma reliant, and has pretty confusing/complicated looking gabit rules. This Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/adamant-entertainment/tos---warlord) was also suggested, but it too has a high charisma demand, to which i cannot meet. Theoretically i can move my Wisdom into my Charisma for a Cha of 14, which isn't terrible and just state he was hit on the head REALLY hard when he was captured, but before i do i just wanted to double check. Leading us to the actual question.

Can you help me find a Melee tank-capable base class that supports/enhances his allies, and fills the "Tactician/general" feel too it without requiring a high charisma? Wisdom, Constitution, or Strength classes would be amazing.

Edit: For the reccord he's currently level one, so basic stuff to start out with if possible.

[Mehangel]

I dont know what level you are, but I would actually suggest having your character playing a Tactician/Thrallherd. Have your thrall (DSP: Zealot) if high enough level take Leadership feat. Have your thralls cohort (DSP: Warder) take the Recruits feat.

This will effectively give you a Tactician (you), a Zealot and a Warder who has multiple choice cohorts which you can trade out; I suggest you choose Vitalist, Warlord, and Cavalier.


-------------OR-------------------------------------

Play an Armorist from Drop Dead Studios: Spheres of Power.

Have your character focus mostly if not entirely in the War (and possibly protection) spheres. Get yourself a familiar as soon as you can, then get familiar concentration to allow your familiar to concentration on your totems for you (so you dont spend too much spell points). You will be buffing your allies while still being competent at battle.

[Draconi Redfir]

ah, sorry. We're starting at level one. should have brought that up. i'll edit the first post.

[T.G. Oskar]

Mostly off-topic: ouch! First - the Retooled Marshal is homebrew - the Good and Proper (TM) D&D Wiki pretty much specifies it is right on the corner, with a pretty little banner that says "Homebrew". Not to mention, it's designed with 3.5 in mind, therefore it's designed with a different concept of balance in mind: case in point - Rally was designed to address a common tactic used by the Bard, which is getting the Dragontouched feat, then Draconic Heritage for a rare dragon type, and finally Dragonfire Inspiration to turn its bonus to damage into d6s, thus granting a massive boost to damage in exchange for virtually nothing. Pathfinder has no similar tricks, so it will seem as pretty powerful, until you notice that the Retooled Marshal must spend its move action to keep the Rally up until 11th level, when it becomes a swift action (unlike the Bard). Thanks for considering my homebrews, though.

On-topic: IMO, a Hobgoblin Cavalier is pretty strong and still retains the ability to buff allies. The Demoralizing Lash (sp?) feat chain ends up with an ability that provides a bonus to allies' attack and damage rolls (morale, IIRC); meanwhile, the Cavalier boosts by means of its banner and Tactician class features, as well as the correct choice of Orders, while still dealing quite a bit of damage through its Charges.

DSP's Tactician psionic class requires Intelligence to use its powers and Charisma to empower its strategies, which alongside the medium BAB means it's not exactly very "melee", not to mention a tad MAD if you go for Strength/Intelligence/Charisma/Constitution and some Dexterity to boot. Compared to the Cavalier's Str/Con/Cha (and Charisma isn't really THAT needed), it's an investment. DSP's Warlord class also has some mild reliance on Charisma, but its moves are tailored towards a more melee-inclined leader type; might want to consider the Bannerman archetype for some added leadership qualities.

[Extra Anchovies]

So i tried for This Version of Warlord (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warlord#TOC-Warlord-s-Gambit-Ex-), which is both Charisma reliant, and has pretty confusing/complicated looking gabit rules.

For what you're looking for, that Warlord is probably your best option. It's not actually Charisma-dependent; you should be fine with a starting Cha of 14 and maybe a Cha-increasing item later on. A good point buy would be 16/12/14/8/10/14 for 20 points, or 17/12/14/8/12/14 for 25 points. Gambits seem a bit complex at first but here's a quick step-by-step explanation:
1. Spend a swift action declaring the gambit, or an immediate action with Unbreakable Gambit.
2. Carry out the task or tasks necessary to attempt the gambit; this can be a standard action (e.g. Deadeye Gambit), a move action (e.g. Acrobatic Gambit), a full-round action (Brave Gambit), or not an action at all (Unbreakable Gambit). You add your Charisma modifier to any d20 rolls that are a part of attempting the gambit.
3.a. If you succeeded, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 2) and gain that gambit's reward.
3.b. If you failed, you recover 1 maneuver and take a -2 penalty on all d20 rolls for 1 round.
And that's it. You know two gambits at 1st level, and learn another one at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

But the gambits aren't the Warlord's main ability; what makes them strong is their maneuvers (if you're familiar with ToB you'll know how PoW works, since the latter is an update of the former). Golden Lion is a great discipline for a general-type, with lots of ally buffs and action-control, and Primal Fury is a nice secondary discipline, because it's got some strong damaging maneuvers.

[Draconi Redfir]

Unfortionatyely the ability scores are fixed, and i can't change them. I can move them around, put the 18 in Cha and an 8 into Str for example, but the core numbers must remain 18, 17, 16, 8, 8, 8.


Mostly off-topic: ouch! First - the Retooled Marshal is homebrew - the Good and Proper (TM) D&D Wiki pretty much specifies it is right on the corner, with a pretty little banner that says "Homebrew". Not to mention, it's designed with 3.5 in mind, therefore it's designed with a different concept of balance in mind: case in point - Rally was designed to address a common tactic used by the Bard, which is getting the Dragontouched feat, then Draconic Heritage for a rare dragon type, and finally Dragonfire Inspiration to turn its bonus to damage into d6s, thus granting a massive boost to damage in exchange for virtually nothing. Pathfinder has no similar tricks, so it will seem as pretty powerful, until you notice that the Retooled Marshal must spend its move action to keep the Rally up until 11th level, when it becomes a swift action (unlike the Bard). Thanks for considering my homebrews, though.

Yeah, and it sucks too as i was really looking forward to that class. how's the "Official" 3.5 marshal? i'll try and talk with my DM to see what he thinks about it being a move action to maintain, though i think the main issue is that it effectively gives everyone sneak attack damage without actually sneak attacking. Might be able to swap it out for something, but idk.
Pathfinder and 3.5 aren't TOO different in my experiance, just a few skill and class changes, nothing mechanichal actively stopping you from playing a 3.5 fighter if you really wanted too.


On-topic: IMO, a Hobgoblin Cavalier is pretty strong and still retains the ability to buff allies. The Demoralizing Lash (sp?) feat chain ends up with an ability that provides a bonus to allies' attack and damage rolls (morale, IIRC); meanwhile, the Cavalier boosts by means of its banner and Tactician class features, as well as the correct choice of Orders, while still dealing quite a bit of damage through its Charges.

I've looked into that, and it's been suggested before, but it seems a very mount-centric class, and while fighting on a mount seems fun, there's little chance that all or even most combats will be viable mounted. I don't suppose there are non-mounted archetypes h'uh?


DSP's Tactician psionic class requires Intelligence to use its powers and Charisma to empower its strategies, which alongside the medium BAB means it's not exactly very "melee", not to mention a tad MAD if you go for Strength/Intelligence/Charisma/Constitution and some Dexterity to boot. Compared to the Cavalier's Str/Con/Cha (and Charisma isn't really THAT needed), it's an investment. DSP's Warlord class also has some mild reliance on Charisma, but its moves are tailored towards a more melee-inclined leader type; might want to consider the Bannerman archetype for some added leadership qualities.
Can't say i'm fammilier with this one. Can you provide a link or other further info?


For what you're looking for, that Warlord is probably your best option. It's not actually Charisma-dependent; you should be fine with a starting Cha of 14 and maybe a Cha-increasing item later on. A good point buy would be 16/12/14/8/10/14 for 20 points, or 17/12/14/8/12/14 for 25 points. Gambits seem a bit complex at first but here's a quick step-by-step explanation:
1. Spend a swift action declaring the gambit, or an immediate action with Unbreakable Gambit.
2. Carry out the task or tasks necessary to attempt the gambit; this can be a standard action (e.g. Deadeye Gambit), a move action (e.g. Acrobatic Gambit), a full-round action (Brave Gambit), or not an action at all (Unbreakable Gambit). You add your Charisma modifier to any d20 rolls that are a part of attempting the gambit.
3.a. If you succeeded, you recover a number of maneuvers equal to your Charisma modifier (minimum 2) and gain that gambit's reward.
3.b. If you failed, you recover 1 maneuver and take a -2 penalty on all d20 rolls for 1 round.
And that's it. You know two gambits at 1st level, and learn another one at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

But the gambits aren't the Warlord's main ability; what makes them strong is their maneuvers (if you're familiar with ToB you'll know how PoW works, since the latter is an update of the former). Golden Lion is a great discipline for a general-type, with lots of ally buffs and action-control, and Primal Fury is a nice secondary discipline, because it's got some strong damaging maneuvers.

Admittedly i haven't looked too much into thatt acticion beyond the gambits, the whole thing just looks so big and intimidating:smalleek: i'll take some further look into it i suppose. just worried that a lot of the gambits are things i don't really know how to do, trip attacks, grapples, combat menuvers, etc. i suppose i can learn, If possible i'd like to hear some possible alternatives first though.

[squiggit]

Sorta strikes me as odd there's no int based tactics-y leadery class in PF. All the martial leadery classes run off charisma. Huh.

[Ssalarn]

The Battlelord (https://www.dropbox.com/s/ntapsd5sc0x1gp6/TheBattlelord.pdf?dl=0) from Amora Games 5-star reviewed Liber Influxus Communis (http://endzeitgeist.com/liber-influxus-communis-book-collective-influence/) is an Int-based military tactician who share his roots with the 3.5 Marshal. Endzeitgeist, probably the most respected and prolific reviewer of 3pp materials around, loves it and uses it in his games (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9ce0/discuss&page=2?Liber-Influxus-Communis#82). For whatever that's worth.

[Red Fel]

Can you help me find a Melee tank-capable base class that supports/enhances his allies, and fills the "Tactician/general" feel too it without requiring a high charisma? Wisdom, Constitution, or Strength classes would be amazing.

If you're willing to swap some ability scores around, I'd actually suggest the Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) rather than the Warlord. The class is Int-based, but is exactly what you want - tactical genius, party support, battlefield control. He gives a bonus to allies within his range. He can sword-and-board with high effectiveness, and is one of the closest things PF has to "tank." He has some excellent archetype options, and his maneuvers only compound his tactical excellence.

[9mm]

Bards, Cavaliers, Skalds can all do frontline tanking duty.

now to be frank most of the leader/support classes and archtypes want high charisma. So unless you go 3rd party, Cavalier or an archetype that gives you cavalier abilities are your best bet.

[T.G. Oskar]

Yeah, and it sucks too as i was really looking forward to that class. how's the "Official" 3.5 marshal? i'll try and talk with my DM to see what he thinks about it being a move action to maintain, though i think the main issue is that it effectively gives everyone sneak attack damage without actually sneak attacking. Might be able to swap it out for something, but idk.
Pathfinder and 3.5 aren't TOO different in my experiance, just a few skill and class changes, nothing mechanichal actively stopping you from playing a 3.5 fighter if you really wanted too.

The extra damage from Rally doesn't really compare to SA damage when it applies. It's half the damage, but it relies mostly on having multiple hitters. If your party is comprised of many physical attackers, then you can deal quite a bit of damage; otherwise, if you're on a caster-based party where one of the allies besides yourself does double-duty as a frontline attacker, then chances are that you're not exploiting it as much. Even with summons in the party, they might land one good attack before being annihilated.

That does lead into something that might influence in your actual question: your DM doesn't like the whole party doing a lot of damage. It's somewhat hard to find buffs that add a lot of damage at once with minimal stacking/effort, but if your party manages to break the range of +17 to damage, your DM might not like the idea. Perhaps the difference is that the Ret!Marshal does it too easily on a system that tries to keep that in "control"?

Anyways: classic 3.5 Marshal is medium BAB, and its only two features are its auras (of which you can have one major, one minor) and Grant Move Action a few times per day. The Ret!Marshal is a vastly improved version of it, since it's traditionally considered a weak class except when applied to a cohort, since its passive buffs are actually pretty good.


I've looked into that, and it's been suggested before, but it seems a very mount-centric class, and while fighting on a mount seems fun, there's little chance that all or even most combats will be viable mounted. I don't suppose there are non-mounted archetypes h'uh?

Actually...there are! The Castellan and Musketeer all ditch the mount; the Castellan eventually gets an animal companion of lesser power and loses the Charge ability; the Musketeer replaces it for a firearm, firearm proficiency and eventually Rapid Reload and free-action reloading when issuing a challenge. The Standard Bearer merely delays the mount and replaces your charge abilities for improved banner bonuses. The Esquire replaces the mount with what's essentially a cohort (an aide-de-camp, which can also be a Cavalier, and can take an archetype...which means it can take the Esquire archetype as well?), which can be an interesting alternative. The problem is that most of the archetypes prefer to replace the Charge, which albeit it only works while mounted, it's a solid boost to damage.


Can't say i'm fammilier with this one. Can you provide a link or other further info?

The Tactician and the Warlord are what other posters have mentioned (the Warlord is the first alternative you mentioned after my Retooled Marshal; the one with the Gambits).

[9mm]

Actually...there are! The Castellan and Musketeer all ditch the mount; the Castellan eventually gets an animal companion of lesser power and loses the Charge ability; the Musketeer replaces it for a firearm, firearm proficiency and eventually Rapid Reload and free-action reloading when issuing a challenge. The Standard Bearer merely delays the mount and replaces your charge abilities for improved banner bonuses. The Esquire replaces the mount with what's essentially a cohort (an aide-de-camp, which can also be a Cavalier, and can take an archetype...which means it can take the Esquire archetype as well?), which can be an interesting alternative. The problem is that most of the archetypes prefer to replace the Charge, which albeit it only works while mounted, it's a solid boost to damage.


There is also Daring Champion (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/cavalier/archetypes/paizo---cavalier-archetypes/daring-champion) which makes you a more lightly armored style tank.

[Elricaltovilla]

If you're willing to swap some ability scores around, I'd actually suggest the Warder (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/warder) rather than the Warlord. The class is Int-based, but is exactly what you want - tactical genius, party support, battlefield control. He gives a bonus to allies within his range. He can sword-and-board with high effectiveness, and is one of the closest things PF has to "tank." He has some excellent archetype options, and his maneuvers only compound his tactical excellence.

There is actually a Wis based Warder archetype available in the PoW:E playtest. It's called the Ordained Defender, and it can be found in this document (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tbBIinA90VQW8eriM0TZTZCbHsSU6cdv7_44J8w564s/edit?usp=sharing).

[Draconi Redfir]

Alright got a lot of good suggestions from you guys plus my DM himself, including the War-Master (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/3rd-party-classes/super-genius-games/war-master) that according to him is a lot like the mashal class i was hoping for before, so i'm gunna have to take some time to check all of these out. Thanks for the help everyone!

[Feint's End]

Sorta strikes me as odd there's no int based tactics-y leadery class in PF. All the martial leadery classes run off charisma. Huh.

The Tactician is a pretty fantastic leader class in the truest sense of the word. Not a front line fighter but rather the tactician who leads his team to victory through superior information, communication, buffs and crowd control. Very good and int focused (should be your highest stat too as opposed to many of the other strength first, charisma second classes).

IMO none of the good leader classes in pathfinder are 1st party. Warlord, Tactician and Zealot (which is a fantastic class ... probably the strongest "tank" and great leader at the same time) all do it better. Other POW classes are also up there and you can even build a vitalist or psion as a leader.

I can't really think of a melee, wisdom leader class though. In theory every initiator with golden lion has access to some nice buffs so if that's what you want it's quite easy to get. Play a stalker or mystic and go nuts (probably even psywar with the acf). Would work pretty well although you are not gonna be the true frontline type of fighter and more like a leader who controls his people through guidance and using skirmishing tactics.