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Endarire
2015-06-24, 03:57 AM
Intro
Greetings, all!

I've pondered long and hard about 3.5's psionics. Which powers are the most powerful for a Psion? (That is, their effect is powerful and versatile on its own, but can also combine with other abilities and items for synergy.)

Assumptions
The following list of powers assumes the character has access to all of 3.5's material. I assume the a character has each power's 'accessories' - items, feats, races, etc. - that directly improve that power. These powers assume a Psion with a manifester level at least equal to his HD.

I also assume Complete Psionic's nerfs are not in place. Astral construct was probably hit the hardest by Complete Psionic wherein a manifester is limited to one Astral Construct at a time. Other casters, like Druids and Clerics and Wizards, have no such limit on the number of active summons.

Criteria for Judging
A power must be on the general Psion list or any Psion discipline list. I generally give preference to lower-level abilities since they're more likely to see play, and these powers have more metapsionic options available. It's easier to use Extend Power and Quicken Power on astral construct than fusion.

Beyond that, I consider what a power does on its own, what it couples with (like Metamorphic Transfer for metamorphosis), and how easily a character/player can use this ability to its fullest. How frequently is this ability useful, and how useful is it? How simple is this ability to understand?

Why make this list?
Because I was pondering this before bed and wanted to write it down for the world to enjoy! I also wanted to hear the opinions of others.


Runners Up
Runner Up Alpha: Forced Dream (Magic of Eberron).
Manifest forced dream, then while the power's duration hasn't yet expired, the subject may spend a swift action to undo all the actions that happened since the start of its turn. (PP spent to manifest forced dream are not restored, and spending a swift action to restart the turn ends the power.)

Forced dream is basically a one-time do-over - especially useful in situations where you know something dangerous is ahead, but don't know just what. Did the antagonist just shrug off your energy missile? Did a trap leave your party trapper hurtin'? Did you say the wrong thing in a social situation? Was someone hit by an attack of opportunity? Did the subject fail a crucial roll, like an accuracy roll or a skill check? Try again!

Runner Up Beta: Energy Missile (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/energyMissile.htm).
Energy missile is a level 2 Kineticist, Medium range power that can hit up to 5 separate targets, each up to 15' apart. When you absolutely want to blast, this is the go-to power. And any full manifester can learn this power via Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge[/url) as soon as level 5!

It's the lowest-level multi-target power that doesn't require augmenting to affect more than 1 target. It also targets Fortitude (cold damage) or Reflex (fire, electricity, or sonic). You can deal more damage directly with cold or fire, increase your DC with electricity, or hurt pretty much anything with sonic. Sure, it's power point inefficient compared to buckets of Black Lotus poison (see below), but it's probably the best targeted damage power there is.

I prefer to ignore the Complete Psionic nerfs to this power. (This power becomes notably weaker with them.) Ask your GM what he thinks.

Runner Up Gamma: Temporal Acceleration (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/temporalAcceleration.htm).
As a swift action, gain another turn. It's a psionic, 1-round (but augmentable for more!) version of time stop (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/timeStop.htm) available at character level 11.

This is quite powerful, but hampered by 2 main drawbacks. First, anticipatory strike (Complete Psionic) exists and does a similar (nae, better) thing as a level 5 power instead of a level 6 power. Second, temporal acceleration renders the target Shaken at the end of it. Find a way to become immune to Shaken (like from being Undead or otherwise immune to fear) and you can spam this power!

Runner Up Delta: Fusion (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/fusion.htm)/Mind Switch (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/mindSwitch.htm) (Tie).
Fusion lets you combine yourself with another willing creature of your size category or smaller. Then manifest this power and do it again. And again. And again. Nothing in the power's description prevents you from doing this. Just be mindful of the 50 XP cost each time - a proverbial drop in the bucket at level 15+.

Fusion works best when combined with astral seed (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralSeed.htm) and form-altering abilities like metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm) to give yourself a more permanent version of what you turned or/and fused into. (You need to manifest astral seed, die within 30 days, then wait 10 more days to grow a new body. You also lose a level.)

Meanwhile, mind switch lets you - also for an XP cost per manifestation - switch minds (and therefore bodies) with another subject within range. It's a lower-level solution (mind switch is a level 6 Telepath power opposed to fusion which is a level 8 Egoist power) and one native to Telepaths, but produces a similar effect: You have a spiffy new body. Yes, astral seed still also works. Yes, you can use this to take control of diplomats and authority figures and cause chaos.

Runner Up Epsilon: Psionic Minor Creation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/minorCreationPsionic.htm).
Psionic minor creation is a power that any character (even your Psicrystal!) can learn at level 1 via the feat Hidden Talent (Expanded Psionics Handbook), assuming the character has at least 11 CHA. Any manifester capable of manifesting level 2+ powers can spend a feat upon Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge[/url) and learn this power as soon as level 3 - assuming they don't know it already!

Manifesting this power probably requires a Craft skill check to make anything complicated enough to warrant a Craft check. (GMs, I recommend using this rule.) Still, being able to make buckets of Black Lotus plants (which you can turn into poison later if it isn't in poison form already) is still spiffy. You can also make less lethal items like ropes and ladders, but c'mon. Did you really learn this power for reasons besides making buckets of poisons?

Combine with Linked Power (Complete Psionic) to reduce the 10 minute manifesting time to 1 round.

Runner Up Zeta: Psychoport ('Psionic Teleport') (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/teleportPsionic.htm).
Simple. Straightforward. Move from place A to place B (preferably with your party) as a standard action. No somatic nor verbal component. This level 5 Nomad power (also obtainable with (Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge)) lacks the guaranteed accuracy of the generally-available level 8 psionic greater teleport, but is available as soon as level 9 for Nomads!

Use this power to warp 100 miles per manifester level per manifestation. It's the ultimate mid-level get-in or getaway power!

Finally, teleport and psychoport are some of my favorite abilities. Plane shift is up there too. (Yes, I'm biased. I like to explore rapidly and laugh as others can't touch me. Ha-ha-ha-ha-ha-ha.)


The Winners
#5: Psychic Reformation (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/psychicReformation.htm).
In short, you can change the feats, skill ranks, and powers known of yourself or a willing ally - with a 10 minute manifest time* and 50 XP spent per HD of change. (That's a maximum of 1000 XP for a level 20 character. No biggie!)

Psychic reformation is on this list due to its potential power. Want to be a blaster instead of a mind controller today? PsyRef! Want to make an ally suddenly an expert in this weapon type he just found? PsyRef! Want to learn some item creation or metapsionic/metamagic feats then swap 'em out when done? PsyRef!

*Add Linked Power (Complete Psionic) on PsyRef linked to a power with a shorter manifest time - like, oh, catfall (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/catfall.htm) - and suddenly you're swapping builds as a standard action (or, with catfall, an immediate action) with 1 round of delay!

#4: Anticipatory Strike (Complete Psionic).
It's a level 5 Psion power that lets you, as an immediate action, take another turn. You may only use this power once per round, and it uses your swift action from your next turn, but oh golly! What can you do with an extra round of actions? Perhaps manifest a power from this list!

Anticipatory strike is the power from this list that has the least extra support. It doesn't need it.

#3: Synchronicity (Complete Psionic).
Synchronicity is a level 1 Psion power from Complete Psionic that lets you "ready a standard action (without spending an action to do so) and use it whenever you choose before your next turn." It has a 2PP augment which lets you ignore the 'you must declare what action you are readying' clause and just take a standard action.

On its own, synchronicity is OK - perhaps even balanced. Let's not consider this in a vacuum. You can use Linked Power (Complete Psionic) to give yourself extra standard actions. Yes, that's as powerful as it sounds. Want to make it even more delicious? Couple Linked Power with Metapower (Complete Psionic) to reduce the PP cost by 2.

-Manifest sense danger (Magic of Eberron) coupled with synchronicity to, for 10 minutes per manifester level, get an extra standard action at the start of each combat.

-Manifest schism (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/schism.htm) and make your second mind manifest synchronicity every turn, then use the action from synchronicity to manifest another power at full manifester level. (Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) can get you schism at character level 9, but you'll probably want to hold off on that until level 12.)

-Apply Twin Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#twinPower) or/and Quicken Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#quickenPower) to synchronicity. Applying both requires 2 psionic focuses, like from Psicrystal Containment (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#psicrystalContainment). (AmberVael mentions the difficulty of actually using two readied actions here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showsinglepost.php?p=19446047&postcount=18). Ask your GM.)

-Manifest psionic contingency (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/contingencyPsionic.htm) with a fully-augmented synchronicity, possibly with Twin Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#twinPower) attached, with the triggering condition being 'when I want this to trigger.' Augment synchronicity as desired.

The main reason synchronicity isn't ranked higher on this list is because, on its own, synchronicity costs PP for potential. You could sniff your finger as a standard action (usually a waste), or make a single attack, or manifest a power, or cast a spell, or... The true power of synchronicity also requires you couple it with something else, especially Linked Power. Without these or similar ways to get extra standard actions, synchronicity is forgettable.

#2: Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosis.htm)/Greater Metamorphosis (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/metamorphosisGreater.htm) (Tie).
The Polymorph Handbook (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=519.0) forms a good basis for why this series of powers is in the #2 spot. Unlike the polymorph series of spells, metamorphosis is self-only, allows you to turn into objects, and the Overchannel (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#Overchannel) feat (and other means of boosting your manifester level) lets you assume forms of a higher HD total than your HD. And any Psion, Wilder, Erudite, or full manifester can take Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge) at character level 9 to learn metamorphosis. That's rad!

Wanna know what else is rad? Metamorphic. Transfer. (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#metamorphicTransfer) Requires 13 WIS (which you're gonna have anyway if you're going the Thrallherd route due to the Inquisitor (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#inquisitor) feat prereq) and manifester level 5. In exchange, you can use 3 supernatural abilities per day from any form you assume. Oh look! A Choker (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/choker.htm)! Oh look! A Hydra (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/hydra.htm)!

Greater metamorphosis is basically a better version of metamorphosis + Metamorphic Transfer in the form of a single power. It's also a level 9 power - putting it near the end of the expected campaign and into the 'very nice if you get there, but largely theoretical' territory.

#1: Astral Construct (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/powers/astralConstruct.htm).
This was a close call with the metamorphosis line of powers, but no other power provides such tremendous versatility and combat ability - from level 1! It's also a power that any character (even your Psicrystal!) can learn at level 1 via the feat Hidden Talent (Expanded Psionics Handbook), assuming the character has at least 11 CHA. Any manifester capable of manifesting level 2+ powers can spend a feat upon Expanded Knowledge (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#expandedKnowledge[/url) and learn this power as soon as level 3 - assuming they don't know it already!

Each Astral Construct comes with at least 1 menu option. Want a flyer? Done. Want a climber? Done. Want a Construct with the feat Whirlwind Attack to be in position right now? Done. Want Astral Construct Power Armor? I assume it works (http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=10279.0).

Astral construct is probably the power that has the most supplemental materials printed for it - not just on this list, but ever. (Link (http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=15897.0)) Theoretically, you could be manifesting level 9 Astral Constructs by character level 6. That's like casting a super versatile level 9 summon spell spontaneously a number of times per day at character level 6! Even if your Astral Constructs are of a lesser optimization level, astral construct is the 'summoning' power of 3.5. Pretty much any challenge can be overcome with an imaginative and vigorous use of astral construct (http://8bittheater.wikia.com/wiki/Episode_986:_1/64).

Pippin
2015-06-24, 06:57 AM
Wow, I like this thread. I was a bit disappointed when I read the description of Anticipatory Strike, though. Technically, it grants you 1 move and 1 standard action, so that means you can't manifest Temporal Acceleration with this. It's basically Greater Celerity, but 3 levels lower.

I was a bit surprise to find Teleport here too. Sure it's awesome, but isn't teleportation common in D&D?

On the other hand, I think Metaconcert deserves a special mention, because no arcane spellcasters can cast a spell that would grant them +10 DC for 1 minute/level. This power is totally unique. As is Schism, which you mentioned, but didn't even put in "Runners Up" :smallsigh:

ben-zayb
2015-06-24, 08:02 AM
My sarcasm detector is broken at the moment, but the content was also sensible some of the time...I'd definitely put PsyRef and "Psi-Polymorphs" at the top tier, maaaybe including Synchronicity, but I disagree with most of the rest (either they are underrated or overrated in the OP).

noob
2015-06-24, 08:19 AM
Psionic Chirurgery is extremely powerful because you can have all the faculties you want by giving it to psions with the abilities you want in exchange of those abilities.
You can heal people of tons of super ultra annoying things and also if you have psionic essence you can burn your stats and refill yourself of pp then heal yourself loosing less pp than what you gained(if you have more than 29 in your spell-casting stat)
I think that it is a must have for any group without priest.

Rubik
2015-06-24, 09:15 AM
Psionic surgeryThat's Psychic Chirurgery.

It's like the difference between a cow and a crow. Entirely different animal.

Segev
2015-06-24, 10:04 AM
That's Psychic Chirurgery.

It's like the difference between a cow and a crow. Entirely different animal.

More like the difference between a cow and a bovine. "Chirurgery" is a synonym for "surgery." (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/chirurgery) It just happens to be archaic.

Psyren
2015-06-24, 10:18 AM
Bestow Power needs to at least be a runner-up, as it is the foundation of all the infinite PP tricks.

Flickerdart
2015-06-24, 10:21 AM
Yeah, I've never bought the whole "construct power armor" thing - nothing about the power allows you to overwrite the rules about creatures sharing spaces.

Psyren
2015-06-24, 10:28 AM
Yeah, I've never bought the whole "construct power armor" thing - nothing about the power allows you to overwrite the rules about creatures sharing spaces.

All you need to do is be Tiny (RC pg.95) which even Medium psions can do fairly easily.

Segev
2015-06-24, 10:39 AM
Grappling rules allow for sharing spaces. Could treat the construct as grappling its "pilot." (Or prisoner, in the hostile case. In fact, if I were DMing and a PC wanted to do the "construct appears around target" thing, I'd tell them to take the grapple-improving menu options for their shape and to treat it as such.)

It's worth noting, too, that astral construct has a 1 round manifestation time; that gives people plenty of time to see it forming and get the heck out of the way.

Pippin
2015-06-24, 11:15 AM
It's worth noting, too, that astral construct has a 1 round manifestation time; that gives people plenty of time to see it forming and get the heck out of the way.
The Constructor's capstone allows you to manifest it as a swift action though. It's the best PrC for Psions after Thrallherd.

Urpriest
2015-06-24, 11:18 AM
Grappling rules allow for sharing spaces. Could treat the construct as grappling its "pilot." (Or prisoner, in the hostile case. In fact, if I were DMing and a PC wanted to do the "construct appears around target" thing, I'd tell them to take the grapple-improving menu options for their shape and to treat it as such.)

It's worth noting, too, that astral construct has a 1 round manifestation time; that gives people plenty of time to see it forming and get the heck out of the way.

You don't choose where it ends up until the end of the manifesting time, though, if it works like spells do.

Feint's End
2015-06-24, 11:30 AM
Synchronicity doesn't belong here. We are not rating linked power but the power on its own and on its own it's not particularly powerful. Useful yes ... but far from being top tier. Linked power on the other hand is also extremely strong with other powers making your reasoning pointless.

On a similar note Astral Construct doesn't belong here. It is a very strong and flexible power don't get me wrong ... The problem is its basically just a much worse version of summon monster (which probably doesn't even come in the top 5 arcane spells) with its usefulness limited to beatstick in differing variants.

Do note:
Those powers are not weak. In fact they are among the best there are. However they don't come close to the stuff you can pull off with powers like metamorphosis, reality revision, fusion, schism to only name a few. Those and a few others are so far above the rest that it's not even funny anymore

Zombimode
2015-06-24, 12:09 PM
No mention of Ego Whip? Because the power is just to good and there is no holding back. Its the only spell/power in all of 3.5 that I consider ban-worthy. And I normally don't ban things.

Snowbluff
2015-06-24, 12:17 PM
You could have your Schism use synchronicity, right?

Segev
2015-06-24, 12:22 PM
You don't choose where it ends up until the end of the manifesting time, though, if it works like spells do.

I was speaking less of "not in that square anymore" and more in the vein of "oh, there seems to be an ectoplasmic entity forming around me. I will move such that it is not doing so."


Thinking on this further, however, the "trick" - at least insofar as involuntarily trapping somebody - revolves around a similar conjunction of rules and common sense that leads to the commoner rail gun; it (half-)fails for similar reasons.

Nothing in the rules says you can't form it around somebody; fair enough. The rules don't provide for a save; true. However, nothing in the rules provides for the effect of forming it around somebody actually impeding their movement in any way. All the rules here do is declare that the two creatures are sharing a space. They make no independent provision for relative position within that space.

The shape of the thing is yours to determine...insofar as it has no mechanical effect. When it has mechanical effect, it must use rules to achieve it.

Therefore, shaping it to "surround" and imprison somebody sounds like the Menu B option for "improved grab." Without that, the shape is just a nice description for attempting a grapple. Which it can absolutely do! This provokes AoOs normally, and allows standard opposition to take place.

There also, sadly, don't seem to be rules for grappling providing total cover, so even the completely unopposed grappling your construct performs on you in order to be "power armor" only provides the amount of cover a grappling creature normally does. Further, it's occupied grappling you, so it can't make attacks against other creatures unless it has a means to do so while grappling. Of course, you're not opposing, so it has a pretty good chance of maintaining the grapple no matter what.

Might still be simpler to use mount rules, however. Even if it's "around" you rather than "under" you, the rules would seem appropriate.

noob
2015-06-24, 12:22 PM
It seems every line or spell in the manual of Psionics allows you to surpass infinitely gods
Like for example the combo of Psychic Chirurgery and of one cheap damage spell and one movement spell and of that feat who allows you to loose stats for gaining pp and the psionic cascade disease who make you cast all your spells in the order who allows you if you learn no other spell to cast number of round ill/3 damage spell and movement spells per turn.
I think that Psychic Chirurgery is one of the best faculties for its ability to refill you of pp with the appropriate feat.

AmberVael
2015-06-24, 01:12 PM
-Apply Twin Power (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicFeats.htm#twinPower) ... to synchronicity.

While Synchronicity is great for action economy abuse, Twin Power and Synchronicity don't really work well together. Synchronicity allows you to ready an action, and thus follows the normal ready action rules.


Readying an Action
You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.


Initiative Consequences of Readying
Your initiative result becomes the count on which you took the readied action. If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you don’t get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again).

While Twin Power will allow you to get two readied actions, actually using both of them is going to be difficult- if you use one and not the other, then the second one simply vanishes into the ether. There may be some situations in which you can still get both of your actions, but its way easier and more reliable to use other methods with synchronicity, like quicken to exchange swift for standard, or linked to just get multiple extra actions at different times.

Segev
2015-06-24, 02:08 PM
While Synchronicity is great for action economy abuse, Twin Power and Synchronicity don't really work well together. Synchronicity allows you to ready an action, and thus follows the normal ready action rules.





While Twin Power will allow you to get two readied actions, actually using both of them is going to be difficult- if you use one and not the other, then the second one simply vanishes into the ether. There may be some situations in which you can still get both of your actions, but its way easier and more reliable to use other methods with synchronicity, like quicken to exchange swift for standard, or linked to just get multiple extra actions at different times.

The fact that you could trigger BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY remains, which leads to an even weirder visual result: you literally do two things at once in response to the same stimulus.

"I ready an action to trip her and manifest Psionic Charm when she runs past me. I'll also comment on how she's falling for me."

AmberVael
2015-06-24, 02:11 PM
The fact that you could trigger BOTH SIMULTANEOUSLY remains, which leads to an even weirder visual result: you literally do two things at once in response to the same stimulus.

"I ready an action to trip her and manifest Psionic Charm when she runs past me. I'll also comment on how she's falling for me."

Yeah, that's why I didn't just outright say "it doesn't work," though I also feel that trying to use them both at the same time could potentially fall into a lot of weirdness/badness surrounding stacking magical effects (since Synchronicity actually has a duration, even if its a short one). All in all, even disregarding how broken it is, I feel its better to avoid Twin Power + Synchronicity.

SinsI
2015-06-24, 02:41 PM
It's sad to see such lack of Psychic Chirurgery at 1st place or even in the runner ups.

Endarire
2015-06-24, 02:54 PM
Note that I address some concerns in the OP. Schism is mentioned under synchronicity. I also explicitly mention in the Assumptions area that I favored lower-level powers since they have more usable time.

What's the community's list then for the top powers and runners up?

AmberVael
2015-06-24, 03:17 PM
Well, I probably wouldn't put Energy Missile on the list. Its a nice power, but in the end its still just a fairly standard damage power. Its not really breaking or overwhelming anything. I also highly doubt Astral Construct should be in the number one spot- its a good power, a really nice one even, but even favoring it as a low level power, its not first and foremost among the MOST POWERFUL POWERS.

Psychic Chirurgery seems like it should be up there somewhere. Yes, its a 9th level telepath specific power. On the other hand, it also is a key piece of enabling the psion to be the most powerful class of them all, so there's that.

Also, if you're up for pure shenanigans (which this list seems to be) Fission should really be on the list somewhere. The amount of stuff you can pull off with it is kind of hilarious.

nijineko
2015-06-24, 03:36 PM
why did the Dream Beast power not make the list? it is one of the most powerful official powers in the game.

Flickerdart
2015-06-24, 03:42 PM
All you need to do is be Tiny (RC pg.95) which even Medium psions can do fairly easily.
A Tiny creature could move through the space of a creature three sizes larger, but it cannot end its movement in those squares.

Eldaran
2015-06-24, 04:04 PM
A Tiny creature could move through the space of a creature three sizes larger, but it cannot end its movement in those squares.

Unless you have a different interpretation of "into" than me, I don't see why you can't stay there:



Very Small Creature
A Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny creature can move into or through an occupied square. The creature provokes attacks of opportunity when doing so.

Flickerdart
2015-06-24, 04:08 PM
Unless you have a different interpretation of "into" than me, I don't see why you can't stay there:
You can move into the square, but you still cannot end your movement there. After moving into the square, you would be required to move out of it.

nijineko
2015-06-24, 04:42 PM
You can move into the square, but you still cannot end your movement there. After moving into the square, you would be required to move out of it.

that is not true, all you have to do is start a grapple with their clothing.

besides, if you don't think of each other as an enemy, you're not ending movement in an enemy's square.

Flickerdart
2015-06-24, 04:54 PM
that is not true, all you have to do is start a grapple with their clothing.

besides, if you don't think of each other as an enemy, you're not ending movement in an enemy's square.
It doesn't matter if you're enemies or not - "You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."

Grapple is an exception to this, but you can't grapple objects. So yes, you could grapple your own astral construct, but that doesn't exactly make it power armor.

Psyren
2015-06-24, 05:05 PM
You can move into the square, but you still cannot end your movement there. After moving into the square, you would be required to move out of it.

Come on man, I even gave you the page reference:

"Tiny and smaller creatures can freely share space with other creatures."

Rubik
2015-06-24, 05:31 PM
Don't forget riders and mounts. Both can (and, in fact, must) share each others' spaces.

Pippin
2015-06-24, 05:42 PM
-Manifest schism and make your second mind manifest synchronicity every turn, then use the action from synchronicity to manifest another power at full manifester level.

By the way, am I the only one here who finds this very arguable?

AmberVael
2015-06-24, 05:43 PM
By the way, am I the only one here who finds this very arguable?

How would you argue it?

Pippin
2015-06-24, 05:47 PM
How would you argue it?
Well the text reads


Your mind splits into two independent parts. Each part functions in complete autonomy, like two characters in one body.

So, intuitively, I would say the second mind gets the extra standard action.

AmberVael
2015-06-24, 05:58 PM
While not a bad interpretation, that's not really how it works out by RAW. The problem is that your second mind and you are largely interchangeable, and so while it might be manifesting Synchronicity, the benefit of Synchronicity isn't necessarily used by the second mind.

Flickerdart
2015-06-24, 06:06 PM
Come on man, I even gave you the page reference:

"Tiny and smaller creatures can freely share space with other creatures."
Curmudgeon has already laid out every relevant point for the authority of RC to make up new rules about anything.

Pippin
2015-06-24, 06:19 PM
your second mind and you are largely interchangeable, and so while it might be manifesting Synchronicity, the benefit of Synchronicity isn't necessarily used by the second mind.
I can't find anything that would support this claim though.

AmberVael
2015-06-24, 06:31 PM
I can't find anything that would support this claim though.

Your "second mind" as granted by schism is not a separate entity. It does not have separate buffs, initiative, or anything. Its you. Therefore, when your second mind manifests Synchronicity, its not getting targeted by that power. You are. So you take the action.

nijineko
2015-06-24, 08:15 PM
It doesn't matter if you're enemies or not - "You can’t end your movement in the same square as another creature unless it is helpless."

ah, but small enough creatures can climb on larger creatures, which is same space.


Grapple is an exception to this, but you can't grapple objects. So yes, you could grapple your own astral construct, but that doesn't exactly make it power armor.

there's a feat for that. ^^

Snowbluff
2015-06-24, 08:18 PM
there's a feat for that. ^^

Yeah, but it's kind of awful, hence me discovering the power armor idea. Which I don't agree with, if you were wondering. :smalltongue:

Psyren
2015-06-24, 10:22 PM
Curmudgeon has already laid out every relevant point for the authority of RC to make up new rules about anything.

Specific trumps general.

Also, by your reading you can't ride any mount at all unless it's helpless, which rather defeats the purpose.

Flickerdart
2015-06-25, 09:09 AM
Specific trumps general.

Also, by your reading you can't ride any mount at all unless it's helpless, which rather defeats the purpose.
The Ride skill specifically says you can. :smallwink:

Psyren
2015-06-25, 09:10 AM
The Ride skill specifically says you can. :smallwink:

And RC specifically says Tiny creatures can freely share space with others. :smallwink:

Flickerdart
2015-06-25, 09:12 AM
And RC specifically says Tiny creatures can freely share space with others. :smallwink:
Still has nothing allowing you to sit inside of another creature, though.

Psyren
2015-06-25, 09:15 AM
Still has nothing allowing you to sit inside of another creature, though.

And see, that I agree with. But sitting on its shoulder or something should be easy.

Not to mention, you sculpt the thing, so making a pocket or divot for yourself with the appropriate craft check shouldn't be hard either. At most it would give you Cover.

Rubik
2015-06-25, 09:16 AM
Still has nothing allowing you to sit inside of another creature, though.It is possible for one creature to reside within another. Swallow whole, for instance.

There's also 3rd party, if you really want. IIRC, Ectoskeleton from Untapped Potential explicitly grants it.

Flickerdart
2015-06-25, 09:23 AM
It is possible for one creature to reside within another. Swallow whole, for instance.
Well sure - but that's not an ability that the construct possesses.

Segev
2015-06-25, 09:28 AM
The rules about tiny creatures moving into other creatures' spaces are a case of specific - tiny creatures can do this - trumping general - creatures cannot in general occupy each others' spaces.

But as has been said, unless you invoke rules such as grapple, nothing allows the astral construct to flawlessly imprison anybody; they can feely leave the space. It also doesn't allow it to provide you cover, except by whatever rules exist for one creature providing cover for another.

Pippin
2015-06-25, 01:05 PM
Back to the subject, I suppose.


Runner Up Delta: Fusion/Mind Switch (Tie).
Fusion lets you combine yourself with another willing creature of your size category or smaller. Then manifest this power and do it again. And again. And again. Nothing in the power's description prevents you from doing this. Just be mindful of the 50 XP cost each time - a proverbial drop in the bucket at level 15+.

Fusion works best when combined with astral seed and form-altering abilities like metamorphosis to give yourself a more permanent version of what you turned or/and fused into. (You need to manifest astral seed, die within 30 days, then wait 10 more days to grow a new body. You also lose a level.)

Meanwhile, mind switch lets you - also for an XP cost per manifestation - switch minds (and therefore bodies) with another subject within range. It's a lower-level solution (mind switch is a level 6 Telepath power opposed to fusion which is a level 8 Egoist power) and one native to Telepaths, but produces a similar effect: You have a spiffy new body. Yes, astral seed still also works. Yes, you can use this to take control of diplomats and authority figures and cause chaos.
I really don't know what they were thinking when they wrote Astral Seed. I hadn't thought of Fusion to make it even more cheesy though, so good job.

In case the DM says no, I guess you could first Polymorph Any Object into a Hulk of Zoretha (Male, Elder Evils p. 52), which has Intelligence 33 for only 16 HDs (so Reserves of Strength is required) then Mind Switch with whatever you like, but you would still retain your Wisdom and Charisma scores. Poor you.

noob
2015-06-25, 01:21 PM
There is written:
To grow a body, you (in the storage crystal) must spend ten days in uninterrupted solitude. The body’s constituent parts are pulled as ectoplasm from the Astral Plane, then slowly molded and transformed into a living, breathing body that is an exact duplicate of your body at the time you manifested astral seed (the crystal itself breaks down and becomes a part of the new organic body). When the tenth day ends, you completely and totally inhabit the new body. You possess all the abilities you possessed when astral seed was manifested, at one level lower, but you have none of your equipment.
Since it is an exact copy of the body you had when casting astral seed it also copy the fact it was multiple things fused together which would split after X rounds.
It is a coherent with raw interpretation a mj can trivially make when you use that ability.
But it still allows you to dupe the persons you absorbed which is cool.

Flickerdart
2015-06-25, 01:38 PM
Since it is an exact copy of the body you had when casting astral seed it also copy the fact it was multiple things fused together which would split after X rounds.
Why? You don't replicate any powers that were active on you when you died. The power fusion is not a part of your body.

Wideyed1
2015-11-20, 07:30 PM
Your "second mind" as granted by schism is not a separate entity. It does not have separate buffs, initiative, or anything. Its you. Therefore, when your second mind manifests Synchronicity, its not getting targeted by that power. You are. So you take the action.

I think an argument could actually be made that any power manifested by the second mind *must* be used by the first. It's not spelled out one way or another in general, but the specific text of Temporal Acceleration power provides an example:

"Splintered or partitioned minds within your own mind, such as might be in effect through the use of powers such as schism, are not temporally speeded up, even if your second mind manifested this power (your primary mind gains the benefi t, while your second mind remains stuck in the standard time frame)." (XPH, 137)

But it could be argued also that since it's specifically called out here, that it must be the opposite in general... Blurry RAW => Rule#0.

ben-zayb
2015-11-20, 08:19 PM
I think Stygian Dominion deserves a mention here, if only because it's kinda like Necromancy.

Novawurmson
2015-11-21, 04:24 AM
Re: Chillin' in someone else's space. The 3rd party Pathfinder aegis can use the Extra Passenger customization (four points) to allow a party member to hitch a ride:


Extra Passenger

The aegis can carry one creature of the same size or smaller as the aegis’s base size (powers and effects that increase the aegis’s size do not allow him to carry larger creatures, although Increased Size and Improved Increased Size customizations do allow the aegis to carry larger passengers). The carried creature is treated as if it has total concealment and he gains the damage reduction of the astral suit, as well as any environmental customization options, such as that granted from the Energy Resistance or Underwater Breath customization. The creature carried using this ability remains adjacent to the aegis and moves with the aegis’s move actions. A creature can be loaded and unloaded into the astral suit as a free action by the aegis, but the creature can take no actions until its next turn. The aegis must be at least 11th level before selecting this customization.

Useful? Debatably. Awesome? Unquestionably.