Non variant human character

[MrStabby]

A friend is considering running a campaign in a couple of months and he said he was hoping for at least one non variant human to make the setting work (he wants humans for the setting but thinks the variant is a little OP). We would be beginning at level 10 and the adventure should see us level up about 5 times.

My thinking was for a Human Wizard Paladin. From point buy:

Str 15
Dex 12
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 10
Cha 12

With racial bonuses I can get good combat skills and high enough Cha and Int to Multiclass.
At 10th level I will be Paladin 4, Wizard 6 with Oathbraker and Necromancer Archetypes. ASI will go on Boosting Strength and Polearm Mastery.

The plan is that I will collect utility spells for my wizard levels that don't use attacks or saves so my low int is not an issue but I will mainly be using higher level sots for animate dead and lower level slots for smites. Even with one attack I feel that heavy armour, fighting style, shield spell etc. will make me reasonable in close combat.

With one level up I get an extra attack and with three I boost all my undead.

RP Wise I was a paladin who was scared and ran off before they could take their oath. Fearing death they began to research Necromancy but returned to the adventuring life to try and find appropriate spell components.

Firstly, is this a reasonable use of variant human? Secondly will it be fun to play (I usually prefer blaster-casters and rogues so a mediocre melee fighter with magical attacks and minions is quite far from what I am used to). thirdly, will I need more hitpoints - hoping that dreadful aspect and reach attacking from behind a wall of skeletons/zombies/other PCs will keep me relatively safe and that heavy armour and the shield spell will do the rest but taking wizard levels means low hitpoints.

I am also not sure what to do for an ASI when I take Paladin to level 8. Str, Cha and Con all seem quite attractive to increase.

[Kryx]

If Vuman is allowed it is the best choice for nearly every build. Because of this I do not allow it. If your DM is likewise concerned perhaps suggest to him to either not allow it as well. Or if he wants to give everyone buffs he can give everyone a feat at level 1.

[MrStabby]

If Vuman is allowed it is the best choice for nearly every build. Because of this I do not allow it. If your DM is likewise concerned perhaps suggest to him to either not allow it as well. Or if he wants to give everyone buffs he can give everyone a feat at level 1.

V Human is not allowed. Our Party has been instructed to have at least 1 human.

[Kryx]

V Human is not allowed. Our Party has been instructed to have at least 1 human.
Ah, didn't see that in the main post.

If he wants normal Humans then he should make them more viable. I suggest at least adding another skill proficiency - though that likely isn't enough.

[MrStabby]

Ah, didn't see that in the main post.

If he wants normal Humans then he should make them more viable. I suggest at least adding another skill proficiency - though that likely isn't enough.

Yes, possibly. Having said that I would still like to consider the challenge of building a fun and viable character from a Human.

[Naanomi]

are you rolling or point buying for stats?
If you are rolling, who ever rolls the best overall can go into some multiclass with lots of MAD... But no charisma because then halfelf is the stronger choice; nothing springs to mind immediately

If point buy, then... Someone who wants de decent stats all around. A Lore Bard skill-master? Push it further for one of those 'proficiency in every skill multiclass'

9/14/14/12/14/16 as a basis?

[ThermalSlapShot]

Well first you should explain why Vuman is not OP. The Feat is nice and helps make a lot of builds early on but it is not OP.

Paladins and Wizards (as with most casters really) don't need feats all that much. You have a lot of toys and fun stuff to play with. Feats can help make a build or boost your abilities sure, but you shouldn't miss them when you have all the other things to do.

I would boost Str/Con/Cha and leave the wizard Spells for utility/general purpose.

If I was making this character I would probably make him a Paladin 4/Knowledge, Death, or Life Cleric 6.

Eventually hitting Paladin 6/Cleric 8+

Knowledge works because you want to learn more, Death works because you want to work the necromatic arts, and life because you want to extend your life. They all get animate dead too so you know, fun times.

Life cleric casting animate dead? Practice for working on Resserrection. But then again I've played an evil life cleric before.

[Naanomi]

With point but Id actually probably just choose a class that wants DEX, CON, and another (non charisma) stat, set them up at 16; and at least get something no other race can replicate. Barbarian, Monk, Land Druid, Wizard...

[Ziegander]

A friend is considering running a campaign in a couple of months and he said he was hoping for at least one non variant human to make the setting work (he wants humans for the setting but thinks the variant is a little OP). We would be beginning at level 10 and the adventure should see us level up about 5 times.

My thinking was for a Human Wizard Paladin. From point buy:

Str 15
Dex 11
Con 13
Int 12
Wis 9
Cha 13

Fixed that for you. The above is a 27 point buy while yours was a 28. The above also maximizes your stat priorities, gaining a further +1 modifier from Charisma while losing no modifier bonuses in the original.

I think it's a neat concept, and a good use of the normal Human.

[SharkForce]

in a level 10 game, variant human is not OP (to a lesser extent it is not OP at level 1, but mostly in the context that by the time you hit around level 8 things have evened up). still a better option than non-variant human, but that has more to do with non-variant human sucking than anything else. nobody needs a +6 to all stats unless their build is really really screwy.

if the DM wants a non-variant human in the game, the first step is to give non-variant humans something interesting to make them stand out.

the biggest reason variant human is so compelling at level 1 is that many feats are very character-defining and have the largest impact at level 1. when you are level 1 with polearm master and you're getting 2 attacks plus a reaction, each of which can potentially kill a common level 1 enemy like a goblin or a kobold, that is huge. when you're level 8 and most of the melees have 2 attacks already and have had the chance to pick up a feat or two if they want and enemies are more likely to have more HP and require several hits to kill, not so amazing any more (but still good). but by that time, you're starting to look at things like, say, darkvision, advantage to saves against a broad category of spells or saves, a bonus cantrip, resistance to a common damage type, increased movement speed, the ability to hide in unusual places, etc, that bonus feat feels a lot less awe-inspiring.

[CantigThimble]

Try asking if you can take variant human but only with one of the half-feats (the ones that give a stat point). It makes the race interesting without giving them a free polearm master.

[MrStabby]

I agree the variant human is better and at level 10 it is not OP... but I have no desire to begin the campaign by antagonising the DM and asking him to change his rules. If I can have a fun character whilst giving him what he wants then I am happy with that.

ThermalSlapShot: Interested in your Cleric Paladin suggestion but is this just for RP reasons or is there a mechanical edge to it? I picked necromancer wizard as it lets minions do more of the heavy lifting in terms of combat - the spells I would be using would not require intelligence. For cleric I could use animate dead, but it would be less effective and most of the other spells I would want would benefit from a high wisdom.

Ziegander: Yes I managed to make some mistakes there. This adjustment looks solid. I had thought I might want to raise my dex in future but now I think I will focus on my combat abilities through strength. This will certainly be nice in a couple of levels time when I start to add Cha bonus to skeleton/zombie damage.

Does anyone know how the Necromancer ability (grim harvest)to recover hitpoints works with things like smite spells (the actual spells, not the ability)? If I do a weapon attack with a smite spell on it for 3d8+d10+d6+4 damage for example and d6 if that is from a smite spell - will I get two hitpoints from it? Will I need to roll everything seperatly and see if the d6 from the spell tips them over the edge? Does this work whenever one of my spells kills someone - even if it is not on the turn it was cast (say for example searing smite doing damage over a couple of turns)? I am presuming it will not trigger from things like undead from animate dead killing people.

[PoeticDwarf]

If Vuman is allowed it is the best choice for nearly every build. Because of this I do not allow it. If your DM is likewise concerned perhaps suggest to him to either not allow it as well. Or if he wants to give everyone buffs he can give everyone a feat at level 1.

It's so simple
If you want to have a high CHA (paladin/warlock/sorcerer/bard) you go for half-elf or variant human
If you are a STR fighter or a barbarian (maybe a paladin) you go for mountain dwarf or variant human
If you want to be something else: you go for variant human.

Or you go for hilldwarf, because it's a dwarf

[SharkForce]

It's so simple
If you want to have a high CHA (paladin/warlock/sorcerer/bard) you go for half-elf or variant human
If you are a STR fighter or a barbarian (maybe a paladin) you go for mountain dwarf or variant human
If you want to be something else: you go for variant human.

Or you go for hilldwarf, because it's a dwarf


not quite.

wood elf is great for monk, and good for rogue. also good for ranger.
lightfoot halfling is good for rogue.
half-orcs synergize well with champion (more crits + better crits) and champion/barbarian multiclass builds.
half-orcs synergize well with assassin rogue (guaranteed crits + better crits).
gnome can be a perfectly good choice for wizard.

but yeah, for the most part... variant human is a good option for basically any class or combination of classes.

[Kryx]

for the most part... variant human is a good option for basically any class or combination of classes.
Not good. Literally better than any other option.

It is rare where a Vuman is not the best choice.

[SharkForce]

Not good. Literally better than any other option.

It is rare where a Vuman is not the best choice.

not that rare. it's mostly only great for characters that primarily exist to deal damage, and mostly only at lower levels before everyone else gets a chance to grab a feat.

is it handy for a wizard to have a feat at level 1? sure. being able to concentrate slightly better is definitely useful. is it better than shrugging off basically all mental effects and getting a bonus cantrip, or being resistant to charms and immune to sleep plus darkvision and getting a bonus cantrip? well, maybe. it isn't really clear-cut.

[Kryx]

is it handy for a wizard to have a feat at level 1? sure. being able to concentrate slightly better is definitely useful. is it better than shrugging off basically all mental effects and getting a bonus cantrip, or being resistant to charms and immune to sleep plus darkvision and getting a bonus cantrip? well, maybe. it isn't really clear-cut.
Sleep only really matters in very early levels. After 3 sleep can't really match the HP of players. Charms are quite niche. Bonus cantrip is nice, but not necessary.

Darkvision is the only reason to not pick a Vuman.


Feats are very strong. They benefit the character in nearly all circumstances (depends on choice) and often in significant ways (more for melee than casters, but casters still have great options).

[ThermalSlapShot]

Sleep only really matters in very early levels. After 3 sleep can't really match the HP of players. Charms are quite niche. Bonus cantrip is nice, but not necessary.

Darkvision is the only reason to not pick a Vuman.


Feats are very strong. They benefit the character in nearly all circumstances (depends on choice) and often in significant ways (more for melee than casters, but casters still have great options).

Well yes and no.

The round in which you use sleep is changed, not how good or bad sleep is.

Level 1 to 3? Sleep on round 1+
Level 4 to X? Sleep on round 2+
Level X to Y? Sleep on round 3+

It goes from encounter ender to encounter shortener.

[SharkForce]

the bonus feat also only makes a huge difference in the first few levels for many characters. having either GWM or PM for a melee character is huge, having both is a boost but not by nearly as much, and both are diluted greatly by hitting level 5 and getting a second innate attack and by the HP scaling of monsters.

a bonus feat at level 1 is a massive difference. at level 20, it's a very minor difference, most likely representing that you got your 4th-most important feat or that your third-most important attribute is a little higher. somewhere in the middle, it is good but not amazing.

and for a caster, it pretty much starts off as good but not amazing. certainly, having a feat is better than not having a feat, but it may not be better than having all the other things you could get. simply put, there are feats that can boost damage dealt. for a character whose primary role is dealing damage, that is huge. for a character whose primary role is control and utility, not so much.

even the feats that boost your con save are helpful, but not required. if you're getting hit so often that they're absolutely crucial, well, unconscious characters can't concentrate anyways. i'd focus on other problems before worrying too much about your con save, personally. like "why am i not controlling the fight well enough to not get hit constantly".

[zinycor]

I would go with a MAD combination, that way the +1 to eerything would do something nice for you.

I don't think V human is OP, I would most certainly try to convince your DM of this.Unless he's also nerfing other races.