Spells to Optimize Fell Drain and (Pathfinder) Dazing Spell

[g3taso]

I have these feats, one as retraining and one due to just reaching 11th level. I'm looking to optimize my spell selection for them as much as possible. That means damaging spells, but not just any damaging spells.

Fell Drain: You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level. If the subject has at least as many negative levels as Hit Dice, it dies. Assuming the subject survives, the negative level disappears (without requiring a Fortitude save) after a number of hours equal to your caster level (maximum 15). A fell draining spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.

Dazing Spell
You can modify a spell to daze a creature damaged by the spell. When a creature takes damage from this spell, they become dazed for a number of rounds equal to the original level of the spell. If the spell allows a saving throw, a successful save negates the daze effect. If the spell does not allow a save, the target can make a Will save to negate the daze effect. If the spell effect also causes the creature to become dazed, the duration of this metamagic effect is added to the duration of the spell. Level Increase: +3 (a dazing spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
Spells that do not inflict damage do not benefit from this feat.


So to optimize these feats, I am looking first for damage spells. Optimally, I am looking for spells that can either:
a) inflict damage over time, allowing enervation or dazing every round
b) inflict damage multiple times in a round: Magic missile can strike several times in a round, and taking multiple negative levels or dazings can be a fight ender

Really, stuff like no save is gravy. I know there are some spells that fit these criteria but searching is time consuming. Like I said, Magic Missile enhanced with Fell Drain becomes a 5d4+25hp spell and [5] negative levels, and coupled with no save means it's a great enemy debuffer. What else can really shine with these feats?

[Dread_Head]

Cloud of Knives (PHBII) allows you to throw out free action attacks each round and can be shared with a familiar to double its effects. Kelgores Grave Mist (PHBII) is an area of effect damage over time spell. Light of Lunia etc. (SC) can be precast and allow you to later fire of damage dealing rays and can be again shared with a familiar.

[Dusk Eclipse]

If you want to get the most out of this combo you will need some sort of meta-magic mitigation, otherwise you are looking at a +5 spell level. Since it looks like you are playing in a 3.P environment you can go the usual route of Incatatrix, Arcane Thesis, etc.

The orb of X line is awesome as usual for single target, Hail of stone is another premier metamagic seed for area attacks, both are from the SC, on the Pathfinder side I think Snowball is the usual go to for metamagic shenanigans.

Do note that it tagging someone with 5 negative levels from a single cast of Magic missile is disputed, the general consensus seems to be that it is 1 negative level per target per cast, so no stacking the debuff on MM, but you can spread the debuffs across 5 targets.

[g3taso]

Cloud of Knives (PHBII) allows you to throw out free action attacks each round and can be shared with a familiar to double its effects. Kelgores Grave Mist (PHBII) is an area of effect damage over time spell. Light of Lunia etc. (SC) can be precast and allow you to later fire of damage dealing rays and can be again shared with a familiar.

I am really liking Kelgore's Grave Mist! I like this one, giving a nice negative level every round you are inside. Couple that with a stinking cloud or maybe black tentacles and there's a party!

[Dread_Head]

I am really liking Kelgore's Grave Mist! I like this one, giving a nice negative level every round you are inside. Couple that with a stinking cloud or maybe black tentacles and there's a party!

I like coupling it with Web, the negative levels and fatigue reduce their ability to escape. One of the most brutal encounters I ever ran as a DM had a Wizard drop Web on a party in the surprise round then a Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist in the same area. As the party struggled to escape that the Wizard plinked away with Fell Drain cantrips and Magic Missiles. Furthermore there was a Goliath Barbarian with Knock-back waiting at the edge of the web ready to bullrush anyone who did escape the deathtrap right back in. The Barb also had a reach weapon and with mountain rage was able to attack into the death trap without entering.

But as others have stated Fell Drain magic missile can't inflict 5 negative levels on the same creature due to the stacking rules. There is also some dispute as to whether Fell Drain damage over time spells can inflict more than one negative level.

[Extra Anchovies]

Geyser (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/g/geyser) is one of the best seeds for Dazing Spell. No-roll damage-per-round with a duration of concentration (plus 1 round per level) and a radius between 35 and 50 feet. Drop it in your enemies and let the party archer mow them down.

[Segev]

How did you get web to deal damage in order to make Fell Drain do anything?

[Dusk Eclipse]

I think he used a normal Web to hold people while Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist did the negative levels.

[EvilAvocado]

Edit: Curse these ninjas


How did you get web to deal damage in order to make Fell Drain do anything?



He dropped the Web in the surprise round then (probably) won initiative and followed up with the Fell Drain Kelgore's Grave Mist.

[Red Fel]

How did you get web to deal damage in order to make Fell Drain do anything?

He didn't, but you could, with Snowcasting + Flash Frost Spell. The former adds the [Cold] descriptor to Web; the latter causes an area-based cold spell you cast (such as a Snowcasting Web) to add +2 cold damage to all targets within the area. The damage then triggers Fell Drain.

It's like a more localized version of the Locate City bomb.

[Dread_Head]

How did you get web to deal damage in order to make Fell Drain do anything?


As other people pointed out the Web was just there to hold them in place whilst the Kelgores Grave Mist sapped them of life. And yeh the Wizard won initiative, it's pretty trivial to optimise for them. I think the build was something like Wizard 5 with Fell Drain, Metamagic School Focus and Easy Metamagic for feats. With a Goliath Barbarian 5 for company they nearly TPK'd a party of 4 level 6's.

[Segev]

Ah, I see!

That makes sense.

[Miss Disaster]

Just like in prior Fell Drain threads, we have a number of people who think that a given opponent who receives multiple doses of damage from given Fell Drained spell ... can receive multiple negative levels. Which is not the case.

To those who think that way, I recommend you do a search for a number of those Fell Drain ruling threads for more info.

[WhamBamSam]

As other people pointed out the Web was just there to hold them in place whilst the Kelgores Grave Mist sapped them of life. And yeh the Wizard won initiative, it's pretty trivial to optimise for them. I think the build was something like Wizard 5 with Fell Drain, Metamagic School Focus and Easy Metamagic for feats. With a Goliath Barbarian 5 for company they nearly TPK'd a party of 4 level 6's.To be fair, that's a CR8 encounter.

On topic. As with the Snowcasting/Flash Frost thing, you can add damage to any Necromancy spell with Black Lore of Moil. It takes the same number of feats, as BLoM has Spell Focus (Necromancy) as a prereq, and it brings low but nonzero cost material components into the mix, but it adds more damage, so that's sort of nice. Fell Drain Moilan Split Ray Enervations are pretty spiffy, and cheap if you're rocking an Arcane Thesis build.

If the caster is a White Dragon (or, probably, a White Dragonwrought Kobold Sorcererer) capable of casting 3rd level sorcerer spells (and have some means of not increasing the casting time when you metamagic it), then Path of Frost is a swift action spell that covers an area of 5 squares and deals a small amount of damage every round and to anyone attempting to pass through. It's a prime candidate for Fell X metamagic.

On the gishier side of things, I'm fond of Whirling Blade and Blade of Blood for Fell Drain. Blade of Blood is only gonna catch one thing, but you can cast it as a swift, so that's nice. If you're doing some manner of AoO chicanery, then Fell Drain Ghostly Tail (Races of the Dragon, because where else?) is a little obscene. As it explicitly doesn't care if you have a melee weapon that can reach the target, just that they perform an action that provokes an AoO from you, I like pairing it with the Defensive Rebuke maneuver and attacks that you can make from far away. They'll have difficulty getting to you, so they'll probably have to go on attacking your allies and get smacked by the tail for doing so.

[Dread_Head]

Just like in prior Fell Drain threads, we have a number of people who think that a given opponent who receives multiple doses of damage from given Fell Drained spell ... can receive multiple negative levels. Which is not the case.

To those who think that way, I recommend you do a search for a number of those Fell Drain ruling threads for more info.

I've read multiple threads on Fell Drain and very rarely has a conclusive agreement been arrived at. The feat is vague enough that it can be read multiple ways and pretty much comes down to DM adjudication.

[Segev]

I've read multiple threads on Fell Drain and very rarely has a conclusive agreement been arrived at. The feat is vague enough that it can be read multiple ways and pretty much comes down to DM adjudication.

If this is true, then, since there are only two possible interpretations, it would seem reasonable in DM-less RAW discussions to assume the DM is less permissive, rather than more, and will rule in your disfavor. Plan for the worst, and if better turns out to be the case, you are better off than you expected.

[Miss Disaster]

I've read multiple threads on Fell Drain and very rarely has a conclusive agreement been arrived at. The feat is vague enough that it can be read multiple ways and pretty much comes down to DM adjudication.

Here's Fell Drain's primary text statement:

You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level.

It does not say:

You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level each and every time a given foe receives damage from the Fell Drain-attached spell.

[g3taso]

Just like in prior Fell Drain threads, we have a number of people who think that a given opponent who receives multiple doses of damage from given Fell Drained spell ... can receive multiple negative levels. Which is not the case.

To those who think that way, I recommend you do a search for a number of those Fell Drain ruling threads for more info.

I get it, and have already notified the DM that is is overpowered. Moving along though, I have found some lower level spells that work great with Fell Drain or perhaps Stunning Spell.

Consider Greater Magic Weapon. Having every successful attack knocking a negative level onto you, or you having to save or be dazed for three rounds is awesome! Any other good candidates? Incidentally, since you were up on the whole "one level per" issue, what are you thoughts on on Magic Weapon (Greater, with Fell Drain), since each negative level is bestowed after a successful attack roll?

[Dread_Head]

If this is true, then, since there are only two possible interpretations, it would seem reasonable in DM-less RAW discussions to assume the DM is less permissive, rather than more, and will rule in your disfavor. Plan for the worst, and if better turns out to be the case, you are better off than you expected.

Oh I agree but the OP was asking for spells that work well in accordance with this interpretation.


Here's Fell Drain's primary text statement:

You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level.

It does not say:

You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level each and every time a given foe receives damage from the Fell Drain-attached spell.

It also does not say:

You can alter a spell that deals damage to foes so that any living creature that is dealt damage also gains a negative level, each creature can only gain one negative level in this manner.

The wording here is ambiguous. It could be taken to mean each time damage is dealt by the spell a negative level is gained by the damaged creature. It could also be taken to mean that any creature damaged by the spell gains one negative level. I think that only one negative level per creature per spell is the most balanced ruling in most cases. But I think that neither ruling can be stated to be outright RAW.


I get it, and have already notified the DM that is is overpowered. Moving along though, I have found some lower level spells that work great with Fell Drain or perhaps Stunning Spell.

Consider Greater Magic Weapon. Having every successful attack knocking a negative level onto you, or you having to save or be dazed for three rounds is awesome! Any other good candidates? Incidentally, since you were up on the whole "one level per" issue, what are you thoughts on on Magic Weapon (Greater, with Fell Drain), since each negative level is bestowed after a successful attack roll?

Fell Drain doesn't work with Magic Weapon or GMW as the spell doesn't deal damage to a creature, simply provides an enhancement bonus to a weapon.


To be fair, that's a CR8 encounter.


Two CR 5 enemies makes a CR 7 encounter. I guess surprise and tactics bump it up to a CR 8. It's only 2 ECL higher than the party who were fairly optimised and had been easily defeating everything I'd thrown at them so far including encounters of a CR = ECL +3 or 4.

[WhamBamSam]

Two CR 5 enemies makes a CR 7 encounter. I guess surprise and tactics bump it up to a CR 8. It's only 2 ECL higher than the party who were fairly optimised and had been easily defeating everything I'd thrown at them so far including encounters of a CR = ECL +3 or 4.I'd have thought the Goliath race would have bumped the Barbarian's CR up to 6, but I didn't bother checking Races of Stone to be sure.


I get it, and have already notified the DM that is is overpowered. Moving along though, I have found some lower level spells that work great with Fell Drain or perhaps Stunning Spell.

Consider Greater Magic Weapon. Having every successful attack knocking a negative level onto you, or you having to save or be dazed for three rounds is awesome! Any other good candidates? Incidentally, since you were up on the whole "one level per" issue, what are you thoughts on on Magic Weapon (Greater, with Fell Drain), since each negative level is bestowed after a successful attack roll?As Dread_Head said, neither Magic Weapon nor Greater Magic Weapon works that way, as they don't actually deal damage. Blade of Blood works, because the spell is the thing dealing damage, thought it discharges after one hit. Whirling Blade works because the attacks and the damage they deal are effects of the spell. Some of the spells that create weapon-esque effects work, because the effect of the spell (the weapon) is dealing damage. Ice Axe, Thunder Lance, and Fire Shuriken are a few good ones.

[Dread_Head]

I'd have thought the Goliath race would have bumped the Barbarian's CR up to 6, but I didn't bother checking Races of Stone to be sure.

Should probably have mentioned that LA buyoff was in place that game and some of the players had used it so I was using it on monsters too. But this is a bit of a tangent.

Another good spell is Fire Shield (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/fireShield.htm) to deal negative levels to anyone who hits you, cast both the hot and cold one for double the effect and persist for all day defence if possible.

Another metamagic feat which adds rider effects to spells is Born of the Three Thunders but this time with no adjustment to the spell level. Consider trying to fit it into your build, although it is a bit of a pain to use because of the dazing effect. It works really well with persisted spells as suggested above with Fire Shield or the weapon-like spells WhamBamSam was suggesting.

[g3taso]

I've got two contenders here. Check it out:
Kelgore's Grave Mist (with Fell Drain, Dazing Spell): 1d6 cold damage per round (no save), and a negative level (no save), and save or be dazed for two rounds. Since I have Magical Lineage, this spell with metamagic is only 5th level!
Elemental Dart (with Dazing Spell or Intensified Spell): 5 missiles at 1d6+10 each (and save or be dazed for two rounds), or 5 missiles at 6d6+10 each (which if striking the same individual should net 30d6+50pts=155pts of damage.

I really like Kelgore's Grave Mist in this app. With luck, anyone in the area of affect will continue to be dazed and therefore continue to take damage (and negative levels) every round. And Elemental Dart is surprisingly powerful as a blaster spell(and one of the relative few spells that can really shine with Intensified Spell).

[Saintheart]

I'd have thought the Goliath race would have bumped the Barbarian's CR up to 6, but I didn't bother checking Races of Stone to be sure.

As Dread_Head said, neither Magic Weapon nor Greater Magic Weapon works that way, as they don't actually deal damage. Blade of Blood works, because the spell is the thing dealing damage, thought it discharges after one hit. Whirling Blade works because the attacks and the damage they deal are effects of the spell. Some of the spells that create weapon-esque effects work, because the effect of the spell (the weapon) is dealing damage. Ice Axe, Thunder Lance, and Fire Shuriken are a few good ones.

By that analysis, would good old Spiritual Weapon also work?

[WhamBamSam]

By that analysis, would good old Spiritual Weapon also work?Yes, Spiritual Weapon would work. It makes it pretty clear that it's a spell dealing spell damage.