Myrrh, Frankincense, and Steel: Kurald Galain's Guide to the Magus

[Kurald Galain]

Here's the thing: if you're going to spam a single spell over and over again, you'll run into issues with immunities. While there are some items that alleviate that, the most straightforward answer is to use more diverse spells. If you prep other spells than shocking grasp, the problem goes away immediately and your character becomes more interesting too.

Blindness is on my to-do list. Good point about it being hard to mend a magic weapon. I've seen those talismans before; I find them rather expensive for one-shots; plus using them prevents you from wearing a non-talisman neck item; and they can trigger when you don't want them to. The main exceptions are the feather fall and breath of life talismans.

(edit) added Blindness spell and Tripping Staff feat.

[Kurald Galain]

Since DSP products are occasionally discussed here in relation to the magus, I feel it fitting to mention that the Akashic Mysteries book (which I am very impressed with) has a whip-focused magus archetype; gives up spellstrike, but I think what you can get out of it might be worth it.

Interesting. Is this available online somewhere? The d20pfsrd site appears only to have Path of War.

[meemaas]

Interesting. Is this available online somewhere? The d20pfsrd site appears only to have Path of War.

Unfortunately, no, not yet. They pulled the public playtest after the release of the book, so there's nothing available freely online right now. It is also unlikely to be coming to the D20PFSRD anytime soon, or at least nobody is currently working on bringing it to the site.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I think it only has the vizier and a chunk of the veils at the moment, but one of the things the snake-charmer gets is access to the Light Whip veil (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/variant-magic-rules/akashic-magic/veils#TOC-Light-Whip), usually vizier-specific. Also you start with proficiency in both the whip and scorpion whip. Can use it to do a reposition maneuver in place of a melee attack (using your character level plus your Int bonus, pretty sure), and you get Grab at 5th level, and can deliver touch spells to grappled creatures (and can cast as part of maintaining a grapple); this ability replaces spellstrike. Investing essence (you get half your level as a pool, independent of your arcane pool) gives the whip an enhancement bonus which stacks with arcane pool, and your bonus feats can only be combat or akashic feats. In place of medium armor you can spend an arcane point to get a 3-round boost to AC (dodge, deflection, and NA boosts equal to half your invested essence in Light Whip). Gains a Fascinate ability replacing the arcana at 9th, allowing you to attack fascinated creatures (instead of breaking, they get a +5 to save against it). Improves essence capacity of the whip at 10th, and can bind the whip at 11th level in place of Improved Spell Arcana. In place of heavy armor, you get a bonus on grapple checks equal to the invested essence on your light whip, and you aren't considered grappled when you grapple with your light whip.

[longanxy]

A question about spelldance I've never figured out: could a magus use haste and blur, or haste and dimension door in the SAME spelldance? The wording says "instead" but it's not like the normal rule for "once per day as a SLA you can cast a and b and c"

[Kurald Galain]

A question about spelldance I've never figured out: could a magus use haste and blur, or haste and dimension door in the SAME spelldance?

Nope. As the archetype says, once per dance you can do A or B or instead C.

[Kurald Galain]

Added feats Fortified Armor Training, Disposable Weapon, Improved Shield Bash, and a section on Path of War feats; racial abilities from Horror Adventures; and a note on Beast Shape II. From the book Haunted Heroes, the only big thing for a Magus is the guiding spirit trait and the Hand's Autonomy feat. The Ghoststrike feat isn't needed since you've got the enchant ability; Spirit Ridden isn't needed on an int-based class; and the three new Magus spells (Grim Stalker, Horrifying Visage, Mischievous Shadows) aren't that impressive.

Turns out the whole hand line of feats is not PFS-legal.

[Britsky]

I'm making a level 20th Bladebound, this will be my first time playing at this high a level and as a spellcaster, so i have a few questions.

With Greater Spell access, which wizard spells would you recommend me getting?

Which magical items are a must? So far i'm thinking Boots of speed, Bane baldric, Eyes of the eagle, Celestial armour, headband of intelligence and gloves of dexterity.

And any general advice on feats, spells and what to do with my black blade would be greatly appreciated, thanks.

[Kurald Galain]

In other news, Divine Anthology has some nice traits (living bulwark, chaldira's luck, gemstone collector) as well as spells (see byond, visualization of the body / mind).



With Greater Spell access, which wizard spells would you recommend me getting?
See the section "Spells from Other Lists" in this guide.


Which magical items are a must? So far i'm thinking Boots of speed, Bane baldric, Eyes of the eagle, Celestial armour, headband of intelligence and gloves of dexterity.
See the section "Gear and Magic Items" in this guide.


And any general advice on feats, spells and what to do with my black blade would be greatly appreciated, thanks.
See the sections on "Feats" and "Spells" in this guide.

[Britsky]

In other news, Divine Anthology has some nice traits (living bulwark, chaldira's luck, gemstone collector) as well as spells (see byond, visualization of the body / mind).


See the section "Spells from Other Lists" in this guide.


See the section "Gear and Magic Items" in this guide.


See the sections on "Feats" and "Spells" in this guide.

I did...
It's a good guide, i've used it make the majority of the character, but those lists aren't exhaustive.

[upho]

I'm about to join a shorter high-level (and high-op) DSP game, and since my PC will replace a sorcerer based blaster and the remaining two PCs aren't exactly strong in the IQ and skill departments, it seems like a good opportunity for me to finally take the eldritch archer and the bladecaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/bladecaster) PrC for a serious spin. The DM has recommended me to make a PC able to carry his weight even in very tough fights against high CR enemies (APL +7 or more), and judging from what I know about the other PCs and the campaign so far, that recommendation should be taken very seriously.

So besides spells and various tricks to bypass high saves, SR, energy resistance and DR, I'm looking into using firearms for attacks against touch AC. One possibility that struck me would be to go with a half-sahaugin (from Bloodforge; +Dex and Wis, -Cha) with the Four-Armed Freak ART in order to Spell Combat with four guns, but after I happened to read one of the FAQ entries on regular Spell Combat I've become a bit uncertain whether Ranged Spell Combat (RSC) allows for this or not, and would like to hear your thoughts on this.


Magus, Spell Combat: When using spell combat, do I specifically have to use the weapon in my other hand, or can I use a mixture of weapons (such as armor spikes and bites) so long as my casting hand remains free? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhf)

You specifically have to use the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand.Since the RSC doesn't require a free hand, I guess "the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand" would in the case of RSC be "the ranged weapon in your hands". Which would be prevent RSC with four guns due to the singular definitive "the ... weapon", even if my PC happened to have a million hands wielding a million guns.

But on the other hand (see what I did there?), I also believe it's perfectly reasonable to claim this FAQ entry isn't relevant in this particular case because:

The FAQ is about regular SC, not RSC (and the Paizo dev team have repeatedly stated FAQ entries are always specific).
The question being answered says "such as armor spikes and bites", which are not "weapons associated with a hand" and therefore not usable with SC anyway (see FAQ 1 in spoiler below).
In a game limited to Paizo material, (the devs seem to assume) a PC cannot normally attack with more than two "weapons associated with a hand" during one full attack (even should they have gained additional hands through alchemical discoveries).

This question may also come up in games limited to Paizo material, since any eldritch archer may for example TWF with pistols or hand X-bows, or simply cast alter self and turn into a kashata (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/kasatha-20-rp) (or they may be allowed to play one).

Can you use TWF or MWF with Ranged Spell Combat?

For reference, here's the Four-Armed Freak and RSC RAW plus three FAQ entries concerning regular SC (which AFAICT are the only ones which may be relevant):


Four-Armed Freak (Ex): Some half-sahuagin have an extra pair of arms. These unfortunate freaks have a more stable physiology, losing the blood in the water and resilient physiology racial traits.



Ranged Spell Combat (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/paizo---magus-archetypes/eldritch-archer-magus-archetype)
Instead of a light or one-handed melee weapon, an eldritch archer must use a ranged weapon for spell combat. She doesn't need a free hand for ranged spell combat. The eldritch archer cannot accept an attack penalty to gain a bonus on concentration checks to cast a spell defensively.

This ability modifies spell combat.


FAQ 1:
Magus: When using spell combat, can the weapon in my other hand be an unarmed strike or a natural weapon? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhg)

Yes, so long as the weapon is a light or one-handed melee weapon and is associated with that hand. For example, unarmed strikes, claws, and slams are light melee weapons associated with a hand, and therefore are valid for use with spell combat. A tail slap is not associated with a hand, and therefore is not valid for use with spell combat.


FAQ 2:
Magus, Spell Combat: Does spell combat count as making a full attack action for the purpose of haste and other effects? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9qhe)

Yes.

Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling did not allow the extra attack from haste when using spell combat.


FAQ 3:
Magus, Spell Combat: If I use spell combat, how many weapon attacks can I make? (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9r45)

You can make as many weapon attacks as you would normally be able to make if you were making a full attack with that weapon. For example, if you are an 8th-level magus (BAB +6/+1), you could make two weapon attacks when using spell combat.

Edit 9/9/13: This is a revised ruling about how haste interacts with effects that are essentially a full attack, even though the creature isn't specifically using the full attack action (as required by haste). The earlier ruling implied that spell combat did not allow the extra attack from haste (because spell combat was not using the full attack action).


Since I'd also like to be able to cast offensive spells (and not only snowball) in combat against high CR monsters, as mentioned I of course have to get through a ton of crap such as high saves, SR, DR, resistances and immunities. Thankfully, I think a combo of items like the seraphic pistol, miserable weapons, metamagic rods (plus a Monkey Belt) and stuff such as the Elemental Focus feat and some nifty boosts from the Elemental Flux and Riven Hourglass disciplines should give me a decent chance to get through most of mentioned crap at least once or twice per encounter, without having to sacrifice more than a swift action. Most crap, but not high saves. Which is particularly annoying since save DCs would probably be the one thing in most need of a boost in order to give me even the slightest chance of success (due to 6/9 progression and being far from Int SAD).

What are the best ways for a magus to boost spell save DC?


Otherwise, I believe I've found decent solutions to problems such as the huge number of needed feats, reloading without free hands, removing misfire risks etc. I'll start at 15th level, but although I could have 14th level spell progression and CL 15 I don't think I'll be able to squeeze in more than 6 levels of magus.

[Slayer Lord]

Are any of the Rare Cantrips worth picking up? Jolt seems like it'd be particularly useful for a Magus, giving all-day Spell Strikes.

[CasualViking]

One possibility that struck me would be to go with a half-sahaugin (from Bloodforge; +Dex and Wis, -Cha) with the Four-Armed Freak ART in order to Spell Combat with four guns, but after I happened to read one of the FAQ entries on regular Spell Combat I've become a bit uncertain whether Ranged Spell Combat (RSC) allows for this or not, and would like to hear your thoughts on this.

Since the RSC doesn't require a free hand, I guess "the light or one-handed melee weapon in your other hand" would in the case of RSC be "the ranged weapon in your hands". Which would be prevent RSC with four guns due to the singular definitive "the ... weapon", even if my PC happened to have a million hands wielding a million guns.

But on the other hand (see what I did there?), I also believe it's perfectly reasonable to claim this FAQ entry isn't relevant in this particular case because:

The FAQ is about regular SC, not RSC (and the Paizo dev team have repeatedly stated FAQ entries are always specific).


RSC is a modification of SC, not an unrelated ability, and what isn't modified stays the same. Contrast with the Maneuver Master Monk's Flurry of Maneuvers, which replaces FoB, and was usable with any weapon and any armor until the obvious intent was written in during the Great UC Nerf.



Can you use TWF or MWF with Ranged Spell Combat?

For reference, here's the Four-Armed Freak and RSC RAW plus three FAQ entries concerning regular SC (which AFAICT are the only ones which may be relevant):


SC is already a special form of TWF. However, the "unarmed atrike or natural weapon?" FAQ makes it clear that one of the properties of SC is that you can only ever attack with your one hand-associated attack. In fact, all the FAQs support that restriction.

[Kurald Galain]

Can you use TWF or MWF with Ranged Spell Combat?
As Casualviking states, this doesn't work. I suggest looking into the Natural Spell Combat arcana to get more attacks with spell combat.


Since I'd also like to be able to cast offensive spells (and not only snowball) in combat against high CR monsters
Empowered Intensified Snowball is pretty good against high CR, particularly if you dip into sorcerer (as it bypasses saves, SR, and DR). Not many monsters are cold-resistant. The Magus's enchant weapon ability makes him very good at piercing DR in general.


What are the best ways for a magus to boost spell save DC?
Same as a wizard: Spell Focus and int boosts, basically. The Magus is generally better off maxing his strength (or dex) and not using spells that require a save. At level 15, you're already three points behind a full caster (because he's casting higher level spells than you) and the caster can afford a higher primary stat due to SADness.


Are any of the Rare Cantrips worth picking up? Jolt seems like it'd be particularly useful for a Magus, giving all-day Spell Strikes.
There are several other cantrips that already give him all-day spell strikes, such as Arcane Mark.

[upho]

However, the "unarmed atrike or natural weapon?" FAQ makes it clear that one of the properties of SC is that you can only ever attack with your one hand-associated attack.And I kept looking for exactly this - a clarification on SC and attacks unquestionably not related to TWF or hands - while it was right there under my nose and staring back at me practically the whole time! :smallredface: I really do feel my brain really has gotten older sometimes, and not in a good way... :smallfrown:

Thanks a lot, and sorry 'bout my obviously hazy old grognard perception causing walls of text!


I suggest looking into the Natural Spell Combat arcana to get more attacks with spell combat.Unfortunately the ranged part is a kinda big deal in this case, but thanks for the tip.


Empowered Intensified Snowball is pretty good against high CR, particularly if you dip into sorcerer (as it bypasses saves, SR, and DR). Not many monsters are cold-resistant. The Magus's enchant weapon ability makes him very good at piercing DR in general.Yeah, I think I've already found ways to use snowball effectively without really having to worry 'bout cold resistance, immunities or DR (standard WBL really does give you a huge pile of gold to spend on nifty stuff when starting at 15th). Speaking of, especially in comparison to options with similar effects, Urea seems pretty darn fantastic for really cool magi, having a ridiculously low cost and no action loss.


Same as a wizard: Spell Focus and int boosts, basically. The Magus is generally better off maxing his strength (or dex) and not using spells that require a save. At level 15, you're already three points behind a full caster (because he's casting higher level spells than you) and the caster can afford a higher primary stat due to SADness.So basically I should be prepared to spam snowball against high CR enemies? I guess that's not the end of the world, since I'll most probably get to mix my snowball fighting and gunning with at least one or two control or buff spells and some interesting maneuvers here and there anyways.

But due to the no-go on RSC and MWF, I think I should check out alternatives to the magus if I'm going to do the whole four-armed machine-gun mage freak thing, since using RSC would result in a net loss of two gun attacks in comparison to a regular full attack. And bladecaster would still allow me to basically spellstrike and RSC as a swift, adding a ranged touch or touch spell to a ranged strike. Otherwise, it seems as if a single pistol and maybe a dip into spellslinger wizard might be a good magus gunner concept, with or without the bladecaster. What's your take on this?

Ideas and tips are most welcome!

[Kurald Galain]

Unfortunately the ranged part is a kinda big deal in this case, but thanks for the tip.
At that level, your default ranged option should be Dimension Door :smallbiggrin:


Speaking of, especially in comparison to options with similar effects, Urea seems pretty darn fantastic for really cool magi, having a ridiculously low cost and no action loss.
Yes, it's been on my to-add list for some time. If you have other nifty stuff in mind, please share.


So basically I should be prepared to spam snowball against high CR enemies?
Well 10d6 is nothing to sneeze at, pun intended.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Jolt cantrip as a nice option; Visualization of the Body / Mind spells (which are ridiculously powerful and prime banning material for PFS); Chaldira’s Luck trait (a nice skill boost for anyone) and Living Bulwark (take one for the team); and salt/urea reagents.

[khadgar567]

just out of curiosity is any thing different between regular(with archetypes) magus and sphere magus

[Slithery D]

Visualization of the Body / Mind spells (which are ridiculously powerful and prime banning material for PFS)

What's the source for these?

[Extra Anchovies]

What's the source for these?

Divine Anthology. Here's Body (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-body) and Mind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-mind) on the PFSRD. The passive +5 on associated checks are pretty solid, but what makes them so great is their active parts. You can get 1d8+level healing, +4 dodge to AC for 3 rounds, +6 to break stuff or enter/leave grapples for 1 minute, ranks equal to your HD in any one skill for 1 minute, a Will save reroll at +4, or +2 luck to all d20 rolls for 1 minute. Those are all (or at least mostly) pretty great, especially since you can trigger them as an immediate action. Cast them up to six times at the start of the day, and the 24-hour duration lets you have any/all of those excellent abilities available immediately when you want to use them. They're also a very nice pick for spontaneous casters, because each of them is sorta three spells in one. Only Visualization of the Body is on the Magus list, though.

[Cieyrin]

Only Visualization of the Body is on the Magus list, though.

Nothing Spell Blending wouldn't solve. :smallwink:

[Sayt]

Divine Anthology. Here's Body (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-body) and Mind (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/visualization-of-the-mind) on the PFSRD. The passive +5 on associated checks are pretty solid, but what makes them so great is their active parts. You can get 1d8+level healing, +4 dodge to AC for 3 rounds, +6 to break stuff or enter/leave grapples for 1 minute, ranks equal to your HD in any one skill for 1 minute, a Will save reroll at +4, or +2 luck to all d20 rolls for 1 minute. Those are all (or at least mostly) pretty great, especially since you can trigger them as an immediate action. Cast them up to six times at the start of the day, and the 24-hour duration lets you have any/all of those excellent abilities available immediately when you want to use them. They're also a very nice pick for spontaneous casters, because each of them is sorta three spells in one. Only Visualization of the Body is on the Magus list, though.

Three points:
1. you can only have one meditative spell in effect at once, and can only cast them when prepping spells. (You have to ready it the day before, and then cast it the next day while prepping.)

2. Visualisation of the mind gives a bonus on skill checks, Visualization of the Mind gives you a bonus on ability checks and skill checks. (Which means body doesn't give +5 init, which is....probably reasonable, from a 2nd level spell)

3. Spontaneous casters cannot benefit from meditative spells.

[CasualViking]

just out of curiosity is any thing different between regular(with archetypes) magus and sphere magus

i would be more stingy with Arcana that require pool expenditure, that's for sure.

[Laharal]

Hello, on the front page, there is a sample build for Str/Dex/Cha builds. I'm wondering if somewhere in this thread there is an Int build as I'm looking for feat suggestions and guidelines.

Many thanks!

[Kurald Galain]

Hello, on the front page, there is a sample build for Str/Dex/Cha builds. I'm wondering if somewhere in this thread there is an Int build as I'm looking for feat suggestions and guidelines.

You use the cha build, except replacing the archetype by something else, and swapping its int and cha scores. Principle's the same.

[Laharal]

And you'd keep the same feats for the Int build as the Cha build?

Thanks for your help with this!

[Kurald Galain]

And you'd keep the same feats for the Int build as the Cha build?

Pretty much. You don't need Spont Metafocus and you may want to have fewer Extra Pool feats; decent alternatives include dazing spell, destructive dispel, and extra arcana: disruptive.

[upho]

At that level, your default ranged option should be Dimension Door :smallbiggrin:Heh, yes, that would probably be pretty spot on in most cases, I think. But I'd like to stay clear of the frontline this time, mostly because I haven't played a PC focused on ranged combat in years, and never one using guns (in 3e/PF). Since I also rarely get a chance to play anything besides NPCs, I'd like to take the opportunity to try out something I haven't really done before. And also because although the party may be small in terms of the number of members, in combat I've gathered it's typically everything but in terms of "total weight" and "frontline volume occupied". :smalltongue:

Meaning the other two PCs are both veritable mountains of metal-clad melee muscle; the battle templar "divine tank" is usually Large and sometimes Huge, and the scary combat maneuver specialist "psionic rager" (whose combat "style" has earned her the acronym "BDFO", ie "Big Dirty [CENSORED] Opportunist") will regularly grow Gargantuan if the environment permits it. Seems like the perfect partners for a small sneaky gun magus to hide behind while plugging enemies full of led and ice, especially since neither of the muscle guys are supposedly very good at dealing damage, while their control shenanigans were largely built to protect a squishier ally and to serve up softened targets for a ranged "striker" to turn into frozen meat colanders...

That said, I guess something like a bladebound magus 6/crimson countess harbinger 2/bladecaster 7 could be even more effective in this party, for example by being more able to take advantage of the many AoOs the two control guys likely generate.


Yes, it's been on my to-add list for some time. If you have other nifty stuff in mind, please share.Nothing that you aren't already aware of, I believe. The only thing I think you definitely should add to the guide besides Urea and perhaps a couple of other alchemical power components is the Monkey Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-monkey). Possibly also the miserable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/miserable) magic weapon special ability, but it's maybe too niche to be worth mentioning.

Oh, and for some reason the compsognathus isn't on the list of recommended familiars - I think it's great since it can grasp stuff (wands!) and gives +4 initiative. Was this omission intentional?


Well 10d6 is nothing to sneeze at, pun intended.Ha ha! You even managed a cool double-pun, albeit a somewhat far fetched ranged one, since snowball might just have your enemies catch a cold. Intense dude, intense... :smallbiggrin:

Though the damage is nice, an average +35 on a full attack is also decidedly unimpressive at 15th, especially since crit-fishing isn't really an option with "snowball gunning". And my hope was to find a way to be able to drastically increase the DC of other spells (especially dispel magic) a few times per day. But I think I'll manage, since I can use martial boosts to further increase damage if needed.

--------

I've talked to the GM about RSC and MWF not working according to RAW, and since the costs (in terms of accuracy penalties and especially feats and items) would be so significant and therefore limit the power of the combo anyways, he suggested a house rule for allowing it, but with two important restrictions:

No iterative attacks with any off-hand weapons (meaning Improved and Greater TWF would only be useful when making regular full attacks).
One off-hand attack less than available hands (so four attacks at the highest bab when using spellstrike with RSC and MWF, same as when making a regular full attack with all four hands).

We both thought this could be reasonable, but please let me know if we're missing something vital here which makes this problematic.

Provided we don't find any issues with the above house rule, this what my build looks like so far (comments in red):


http://res.cloudinary.com/upho/image/upload/c_scale,w_400/v1476985210/Gilda_Machine_Gun_Magus_nethysskull_uylq02.png


Gilda's primary combat role is to be a ranged damage dealer, and I've tried to find the options which makes the basic concept "initiating machine gun magus" shine with that role. In short, I had five mechanical objectives I wanted Gilda to meet:

Able to one-shot an average CR 15 foe in most rounds - including the first - of every combat, without any pre-combat prep (aside from stuff which can be expected to be always active).
Able to one-shot an average CR 17 foe with prep time.
Able to really step up her game and remain effective also against truly dangerous higher CR foes during at least a couple of rounds per day.
Bring more than DPR and a few utility spells to the party, especially some debuffing power and staple arcane buffs, and the ability to act as party scout and general skill monkey and sage.
Have a decent chance of surviving also very challenging high CR combats, which most notably means no weak saves (as powerful spells are likely to pose the most serious threat to a ranged gish).

The two most difficult objectives by far were #2 and #3, since ranged DPR generally has a much lower cap than melee, and the magus' offensive spells are increasingly difficult to boost sufficiently for use against higher level foes. Besides simply trying to get as many decently accurate and damaging gun attacks as possible into a Ranged Spell Combat full-round for good basic DPR, I decided to heavily prioritize options and combos which builds upon and expands the action economy advantage and combat versatility the magus and martial maneuvers can bring. And after quite a bit of head-scratching, searching and puzzling, I think the action economy and debuff shenanigans I've managed to squeeze into the build should mean Gilda is up to the challenge of facing truly epic threats, thankfully without having turned into some crazy tarrasque killer like more optimized melee builds have a tendency to be at this level.

Flavor-wise, since the half-sahuaging race as well as the gun-wielding magus concept are rather odd and exotic while both have such great mechanical impact on the build, I decided to embrace the weirdness and really emphasize the "good-natured and perceptive but socially awkward and ugly fish-woman in stylish clothes" and "water-cold-pirate-ish" elements. Thankfully this also got some great support from the GM, most notably in the form of a homebrew half-sahuagin spellcaster guild which I believe fits perfectly with the race, the campaign and the character concept, both in terms of flavor and in terms of mechanics.



"Ole Frosty-Fins is wha' crawled ashore afta' "the ancient cold magic o' the silent depths o' the Steaming Sea" got ta share bunk with "the revolutionary booming technology o' the fiery Mana Wastes". Damn freak bred by some unholy 'liance o' cold-blooded shark people witches an' crazy 'hot-'eaded landlubber inventors I tell ya, with contrasts plenty an' stark 'nough ta make Nethys cry with envy... Ugly as sin an' voice like a croc who's 'ad a gallon o' bad rum, but the gal's got a mind sharper than a shark's tooth an' hands quicker than a whore in Absalom - an' she's got four of 'em!

Yep, could've made it big an' ruled the seas hadn't her heart been so bloody soft!" - Captain Bordinius "Twelve-Toes" Riddhorne, "Inner Sea Privateer", about his old friend of Gilda Fengonir.


All following values while in Broken Blade Stance, using arcane pool for +2 enhancement to bonded weapon, and under the effects of overland flight, haste and reduce person.

Half-Sahuagin Eldritch Archer Magus 6, Myrmidon (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/fighter/archetypes/dreamscarred-press---fighter-archetypes/myrmidon-fighter-archetype) Trench Fighter 3, Privateer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/classes/martial-class-templates/privateer-template) Warlord 1, Bladecaster (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/prestige-classes/bladecaster) 5
NG Small female humanoid (aquatic, crossblood, human)

Initiative +16; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +29

DEFENSE
AC 35, touch 23, flat-footed 25 (9 armor, 3 shield, 9 dex, 2 deflection, 1 dodge, 1 size)
HP 112 (10+6d8+8d10 hit dice, 30 con, 1 favored class)
Fort +21, Ref +20, Will +18; +2 to Will vs compulsion and fear
Defensive Abilities arcane steel (casting grants THP = 2 x spell level), constant endure elements (Ex), unbreakable (spend 1 grit as immediate for +4 to one save); Resist cold 5


OFFENSE
Speed 40 ft., fly 90 ft., swim 60 ft.
Ranged spellstrike w. Deadly Aim: doomfrost +18/+18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+8 (1d6+23 plus 2d6 vs evil and 1d6 cold), demon-chiller +16/+16 (1d6+21 plus miserable) and trusty +16 (1d6+21) Machine gunning! :smalltongue:
Space 5 ft., Reach 5 ft.
Attack Abilities and Special Attacks arcane ruin (foe damaged by strike take -2 AC and saves vs spells until maneuver recovery), battlecaster's strike 5/day (cast touch as swift against target of strike), ranged spell combat, ranged spellstrike, sea combat (melee with pistols, pistols treated as light weapons, reload w/o free hand or provoking), Steaming Sea surge 3/day (free action at start of turn, all damage dealt during 1 round changed to cold)

Animus 2 at combat start, +1 per round, +1 per round in which maneuver was used, max 2 per maneuver
Arcane Pool 9/day
Grit 6 at start of day and max, +1 per crit or kill with firearm
Deeds deadeye, man of action, ready for trouble, ricochet shot, utility trick These are only the deeds not fully accounted for elsewhere.

Myrmidon/Bladecaster Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 13, 7 known (Broken Blade, Elemental Flux, Glacial Frost, Riven Hourglass, Tempest Gale)
Stances Dancing Winds StanceTG5, Sniper’s Eye StanceTG1, Stance of Arcane Steel3
Boosts Shatter ResistanceEF6
Counters Beat the ClockRH7, Temporal Body AdjustmentRH4
Strikes Elemental VortexEF5
Glacial Frost (from PoW:E) is the cold-based version of Solar Wind.

Warlord Stances and Readied Maneuvers IL 7, 6 known (Broken Blade, Glacial Frost, Riven Hourglass, Tempest Gale)
Stances Broken Blade StanceBB3
Boosts Iron KnuckleBB4, Searing BreakGF4
Counters Deflecting ShotTG2
Strikes Dazzling Solar FlareGF3

Maneuver Recovery
Myrmidon full-round: recover 5, each attack vs Gilda grant AoO and 5-foot step Used if out of maneuvers and no foe can be attacked, so hopefully not in combat.
Privateer full-round: recover 2, check to demoralize all opponents within 30 ft. No, don't think so. Listed only for completeness sake.
Daring Gambit swift: perform pinhole gambit, allies within 30 ft. recover 1 on success Go-to method: swift, class independent and allows everyone to recover.
Heroic Recovery swift: spend 1 grit to recover 1 maneuver Secondary method, used if pinhole gambit isn't an option or seems likely to fail.
Arcane Recovery free: expend prepared spell to recover maneuver of up to same level and gain +2 CL to next spell cast within 1 min. Rarely worth the cost, but a free action recover (even of a maneuver used in same turn) and CL boost can be exactly what the doctor ordered vs truly bad-ass BBEGs (or would that be "BTBAEGs"? :smallconfused:).

Magus Spells Prepared CL 15 (spells/day as 14th level magus), concentration +21
5th—corrosive consumption, overland flight, wall of force
4th—dimension door, named bullet (2), pyrotechnic eruption, ward shield
3rd—dispel magic, displacement, irradiate, sleet storm, vampiric touch
2nd—defending bone, glitterdust, frigid touch (2), invisibility (2)
1st—abundant ammunition (2), snowball (4), true skill
0th (at will)—detect magic, light, mage hand, prestidigitation, ray of frost


STATISTICS

Ability Scores 20 point-buy
Str 7 7 base, 2 enhancement, -2 size
Dex 28 16 base, 2 race, 2 level, 6 enhancement, 2 size
Con 14 12 base, 2 enhancement
Int 20 15 base, 1 level, 4 enhancement
Wis 18 14 base, 2 race, 2 enhancement Primary initiation modifier. Seems there are no good ways to combine Int-based initiating with firearms.
Cha 8 10 base, -2 race
Yeah, she's about as MAD as Alfred E. Neuman. Especially her Con suffers for it, but thanks to her good Fort progression, not being on the frontline and having several good defensive abilities I think she'll manage. And at least her relatively high Wis also improves her otherwise rather mediocre Will.

Class and Feat Progression The order of the feats should be reasonable and not require retraining, but doesn't otherwise matter.
1 Fighter 1: Combat ReflexesB, Deadly AimB, Precise Point-Blank Shot Precise Shot and Point-Blank Shot is house ruled into one feat.
2 Magus 1: -
3 Magus 2: Combat Casting This is unfortunately a requirement for bladecaster.
4 Magus 3: -
5 Magus 4: Improved Counterspell This is unfortunately a requirement for bladecaster.
6 Magus 5: Tap Animus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats)B
7 Fighter 2: Elemental Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) (water)
8 Fighter 3: - Dex to damage with guns, and it's compatible with the myrmidon archetype. Thank you DSP!
9 Bladecaster 1: Rapid Shot Bladecaster is weak compared to the Battle Templar and Awakened Blade, but the only PrC for arcane and initiating progression.
10 Bladecaster 2: -
11 Bladecaster 3: Weapon Group Adaptation (firearms) Broken Blade Stance with multiple guns? Hell yeah!
12 Bladecaster 4: -
13 Warlord 1: Amateur GunslingerB, Rapid Reload (pistol), GunsmithingB, Ricochet Shot DeedB
14 Bladecaster 5: -
15 Magus 6: Multiweapon Fighting This final level of Magus is taken late in order to increase choices for Spell Blending.
Familiar: Alertness
Incandescent Blue Sphere in wayfinder: Blind-Fight
Lord of the Wheel: Lurker in Darkness (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats)
The reason for going warlord privateer rather than stalker privateer, despite a good Wis and a bad Cha, is the huge pile of gun related stuff which can be gained with a mere 1-level dip. Besides the bonus gun feats listed here, the warlord version also grants Gilda the very useful Sea Combat ploy and her main maneuver recovery method. As a comparison, no less than seven levels of stalker privateer would've been needed to gain the three ploys Gilda now gets through her one-level dip. I don't think a single level of any other class grants even remotely as much to a gun wielder.

Miscellaneous
Skills Acrobatics +13, Disable Device +29, Fly +30, Knowledge (arcane, planes) +23, Knowledge (dungeoneering, history) +9, Perception +29, Sense Motive +26, Sleight of Hand +34, Spellcraft +23, Stealth +33, Swim +21, Use Magic Device +17 The boosted SoH is primarily because Tempest Gale maneuvers make heavy use of it. A few skill points still remain to be placed.
Languages Abyssal, Aklo, Aquan, Common, Elven, Giant, Goblin, Halfling, Undercommon

Magus Arcana Familiar (Bertus, compsognathus), Spell Blending (abundant ammunition, named bullet); SQ Amphibious
Alternate Racial Traits Four-Armed Freak; Traits Magic Knack, Practiced Initiator
Martial Traditions Acolytes of the Arrow, Lords of the Wheel; Spellcaster Guild Cold Cave Laboratories Guild designed by the GM, prestige points grants the cold resistance and the Steaming Sea surge ability.

Gear doomfrost (+1 greater reliable holy frost pistol, bonded item), demon-chiller (+1 greater reliable miserable (evil outsiders) pistol), trusty (+1 greater reliable pistol), mithral celestial armor of +2 deflection and +5 resistance, +2 buckler, beneficial monkey belt (+6 dex, +2 str, con), buffering cap of the cool mind (+4 int, +2 wis), eyes of the eagle, deft gloves (+5 sleight of hand), scarf of manipulation (+7 use magic device, worn by Bertus), steelwalker's boots, familiar satchel, muleback cords, power charm of the empowered on bracelet of charms, cracked incandescent blue sphere in wayfinder, mwk thieves' tools, gunsmith's kit, pearls of power (two 1st level, two 2nd level, one 3rd level), lesser intensified metamagic rod (2), lesser rime metamagic rod, wands of contingent action (10 charges, carried by Bertus), haste (carried by Bertus), mirror image and reduce person (carried by Bertus), dweomer's essence (2), oil of silence (6), myrrh (25 castings), urea (100 castings), alchemical cartridges (200), 1,350 gp The game uses the Steelforge item rules, i.e. tax-free stacking of big six and skill competence bonuses onto any slotted item. The GM gave me an extra 60 grand (25% of WBL due to bonded item and crafting feats of allies) on the condition that the market price of my bonded gun would be at least equal to this amount.



The damage values in parenthesis below isn't DPR, just the average damage if all attacks hit, none crit, and the target is evil and has no DR or cold resistance.

Familiar Wand Wielding
Bertus can use wands with 100% success chance, effectively almost doubling up on buff actions.

Spell Combat Turn (507.5 damage)
1. Swift - Iron Knuckle (+14 average damage to all attacks for 1 round)
2. Full-round - spell combat with spellstrike:

2a. may move total distance of up to 45 ft. before, after or between attacks (steelwalker's boots)
2b. casts intensified snowball (using rod)
2c. spellstrike to deliver snowball via attack (+18) with doomfrost (86 damage)
2d. attack granted by haste (+18) with doomfrost (51 damage on hit)
2e. attack granted by Rapid Shot (+18) with doomfrost (51 damage on hit)
2f. main hand attack granted by Broken Blade Stance (+18) with doomfrost (51 damage)
2g. regular attack (+18) with doomfrost (51 damage vs evil opponent)
2h. off-hand attack granted by Broken Blade Stance (+16) with demon-chiller (38.5 damage)
2i. regular off-hand attack (+16) with demon-chiller (38.5 damage)
2j. regular off-hand attack (+16) with trusty (38.5 damage)
2k. first regular iterative attack (+13) with doomfrost (51 damage)
2l. second regular iterative attack (+8) with doomfrost (51 damage)
3. Turn ends - gains 2 points of animus

Machine Gun Action Round (658.5 damage, target may also be entangled and/or dazed or dazzled)
1. Bertus casts contingent action (using wand) on Gilda during his turn or before combat
2. Swift - Iron Knuckle (+14 damage to all attacks for 1 round)
3. Free - contingent action triggered: Elemental Vortex (+18) with doomfrost augment 2 (86 damage, Fort DC 21 or entangled 4 rounds)
4. Full-round - spell combat with spellstrike, as above
5. Turn ends - gains 2 points of animus
6. Immediate - Beat the Clock directly after turn: Dazzling Solar Flare (+18) with doomfrost (65 damage, Fort DC 18 dazzled 1 round or dazed 2.5 rounds)

Auto-Cannon (up to +822 additional damage with Spell Combat Turn as above)
This is only for when prep is possible and the enemy type and/or name is known.
1. Casts Abundant Ammunition on Beneficial Bandolier
2. Casts Named Bullet on one alchemical cartridge in Beneficial Bandolier
3. Fires free auto-threatening bullets and adding 15 damage to crits against chosen enemy type within 30 ft. during next 15 minutes (x4 crit weapons have their uses...)

Deep Freeze Turn (enemy takes additional damage and -10 SR for 1 round)
If a particularly annoying enemy seems to be suffering from a bad case of SR and/or cold resistance/immunity
1. Free - uses Steaming Sea surge (all damage is cold damage for 1 round)
2. Swift - Shatter Resistance augment 2 (attacks gain +14 damage, ignore energy resistance, SR of creature damaged is lowered by 10 for 1 round)
4. Full-round - spell combat with spellstrike, as above but with rime corrosive consumption/pyrotechnic eruption/irradiate (using rod) instead of snowball (plus Urea or Dweomer's Essence if deemed necessary)
5. Turn ends - gains 2 points of animus



Improvement suggestions most welcome!

[upho]

A few other things I forgot to mention which you might wanna add to the guide:

Pyrotechnic eruption (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/pyrotechnic-eruption) is an OK (orange?) single-target 4th level blasting spell, a sorta more front-loaded fire-based corrosive consumption but with Dex for half.
Polearm Dancer (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) (from PoW:E) if your Dex magus cannot stop drooling over reach weapons. Counts as Finesse and is combos nicely with Deadly Agility, Combat Reflexes, Weapon Trick: Polearm and maybe Seize the Opportunity (see below). Dip Warder for free Combat Reflexes and add bladecaster levels for extra melee control and AoO damage fun (swap in say Elemental Flux, Riven Hourglass and/or Shattered Mirror via trait/tradition).
Seize the Opportunity (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) (from PoW:E) might not play to the strengths of a magus in particular, but it's still a simply amazing feat. It's hard to overestimate the amount of shenanigans this allows you to pull off.
Elemental Flux (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/elemental-flux-maneuvers) discipline and the associated Elemental Focus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) and Tap Animus (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/pow-e-feats) can be worth mentioning. These have some potentially great synergy with especially a magus focusing on a specific type of energy damage, and may help substantially with not only piercing energy resistance but eventually also SR (see for example Shatter Resistance (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/elemental-flux-maneuvers#TOC-Shatter-Resistance) and Gilda's "Deep Freeze" combo in my previous post).
Finally, the excellent Riven Hourglass (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/disciplines-and-maneuvers/riven-hourglass-maneuvers) discipline, since it has a number of action-saving stances, boosts and counters which jam well with the magus' love of full attacks.

Otherwise, your guide seems to be choke full of pure win! :smalltongue:

[digiman619]

I'm aware that it's a totally different system, but what are your thoughts on a Magus in a campaign that includes Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/)? Is it worth using in such an environment? I ask because I GM a SoP game and want to know if including it in the game world is worth it or not.

[hector212121]

How is the Cyclops Helmet NOT on this list? A good strike with a +1 Flaming Burst(with Freezing Burst and Shocking Burst, along with, let's say Keen for the turns where Cyclops Helm isn't guaranteeing instacrit, from the arcane pool) scythe is 9d10+8d4+3d6+quadruple strength to damage+4.

9d10 averages to 49.5, 8d4 to 20, 3d6 averages 10.5, so that makes 74 plus 4 times your strength bonus--which is already 1.5 times your modifier. More if your friends have the feat that lets them give away criticals.

And if you're spellstriking with a different weapon? Well, the Cyclops Helm will let you pick to crit then, too, your Intensified Shocking Grasp hitting for 20d6, or, if you're really stacking on the metamagic(say, a metamagic rod of empower+maximize from spell slots--which typically means a 4th level spell slot given that pretty much every magus reduces Intensified Shocking Grasp to a level 1 spell), 120+10d6 for a average of 155 damage on a desperation attack.

Slap those together, and you can inflict a good 250 damage, easy. AND THAT'S ONLY ON YOUR FIRST ATTACK OF THE TURN. And that's assuming that the scythe is your backup weapon--at a +3, it costs about 20k, so a high level character could easily afford to lug it around.

Edit:This becomes even more vicious with a gun magus build, because then you can invest in AMMO EFFECTS, like Thundering and Corrosive Burst, and you're working with your main weapon.... not to mention you can use NAMED BULLET, letting you instead focus on auto-confirming.

[upho]

I'm aware that it's a totally different system, but what are your thoughts on a Magus in a campaign that includes Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/)? Is it worth using in such an environment? I ask because I GM a SoP game and want to know if including it in the game world is worth it or not.I haven't yet played with SoP, but from what I've heard and as far as I can tell from reading up on the system, the Paizo Magus should work fine balance-wise, since both SoP casters and the magus are less powerful than Paizo full casters. And I know people said they used SoP with Paizo magus (and some other Paizo 6/9 casters) without issues a year back or so. Also, you might wanna check this homebrew out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?392982-Spheres-of-Power-All-Class-Conversions) if you'd prefer to have only one magic system in your setting/game and don't like the SoP magus archetype (black blade?), which IIRC combines only with a rare few worthwhile Paizo magus archetypes.

[Kurald Galain]

The only thing I think you definitely should add to the guide besides Urea and perhaps a couple of other alchemical power components is the Monkey Belt (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/wondrous-items/wondrous-items/a-b/belt-monkey). Possibly also the miserable (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abilities/miserable) magic weapon special ability, but it's maybe too niche to be worth mentioning.
Urea and salt are on the list, I haven't found other useful alchemical components for a Magus. Monkey Belt is good for its prehensile tail, I'll add that. Miserable would be nice if it worked on everything, but as it's limited to one creature type it's really not worth it.


Oh, and for some reason the compsognathus isn't on the list of recommended familiars - I think it's great since it can grasp stuff (wands!) and gives +4 initiative. Was this omission intentional?
I don't see any mention of hands or grasping in its statblock. (edit) to clarify, I'm not listing all familiars (or all feats or all spells) because that's not what most readers are looking for; there's already database pages for that. So under familiars, there's a list of abilities granted by familiars, with a few examples for each ability; it's not a full list of possible familiars.


A few other things I forgot to mention which you might wanna add to the guide:
Thank you for the suggestions! I'll have to check out the POW feats later. Pyro Eruption was on my list, but I considered it not interesting enough to include. That's because for a Magus that wants damage, either a touch spell or an area effect reflex spell is much better than a single-target reflex spell.


How is the Cyclops Helmet NOT on this list?
Because this item is not normally available outside of Emerald Spire. I try to avoid campaign-specific material.


I'm aware that it's a totally different system, but what are your thoughts on a Magus in a campaign that includes Spheres of Power (http://spheresofpower.wikidot.com/)?
I'm not familiar with SOP, and as far as I can tell it's not widely used (so I don't see much of a reason to add it to the handbook, so far).

[upho]

Miserable would be nice if it worked on everything, but as it's limited to one creature type it's really not worth it.Yeah, you're right. And I'm actually starting to reconsider the choice for my "machine gun magus" as well.


I don't see any mention of hands or grasping in its statblock. (edit) to clarify, I'm not listing all familiars (or all feats or all spells) because that's not what most readers are looking for; there's already database pages for that. So under familiars, there's a list of abilities granted by familiars, with a few examples for each ability; it's not a full list of possible familiars.Oh gods no, I don't think you should list everything. Please remain highly selective, it's a major reason why I find your guide to be so user-friendly! :smallsmile:

I was mostly just surprised that you mentioned the other +4 initiative familiars but not the compso, since the wand wielding thing (although GM dependent) is kinda big.

The grasp ability hides in the magic item slots for animals table (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items#table-magic-item-slots-for-animals), which says:

Some creature body types are able to grasp and carry one object at a time in their paws, claws, or hands, including weapons, rods, wands, and staves, though they may not be able to use such items effectively (GM's discretion) and take penalties for nonproficiency as usual.

(Generally speaking, from my limited experience with other GMs, they tend to be much more likely to allow wand manipulation to animals which actually have grasping "hands" (such as a monkey and most biped dinosaurs with an acceptable number of digits) rather than grasping "feet" (such as a dodo or a raven). But YMMV, of course.)


Pyro Eruption was on my list, but I considered it not interesting enough to include. That's because for a Magus that wants damage, either a touch spell or an area effect reflex spell is much better than a single-target reflex spell.True. The reason I noticed and added it was because of the lack of other good 4th level blasting choices. But since most magi have a metamagic feat or two, I guess it's kinda pointless.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Life Bubble spell, Monkey Belt and Page of Spell Knowledge items, Polearm Dancer feat.


A few other things I forgot to mention which you might wanna add to the guide:
Thank you. Seize the Opportunity is not so great because you can already use trip and disarm as an attack of opportunity. Elemental Focus feat doesn't seem to work on spell damage or magic weapon damage, meaning that it remains a good choice to pick a different element. I haven't gotten around to adding specific disciplines yet.


True. The reason I noticed and added it was because of the lack of other good 4th level blasting choices. But since most magi have a metamagic feat or two, I guess it's kinda pointless.
Dragon's Breath is a decent choice.

[Kurald Galain]

So, I took a look at Inner Sea Temples. For use with spell blending, the spells Free Spirit and Incessant Buzzing may be nice. The item Saliharion is a good deal for anyone who's into knowledge checks (and seems like banhammer material for PFS, really).

[meemaas]

On the topic of Sphere Magus, Sphere's of Power is actually a surprisingly popular subsystem, especially here on the forums, that said, I wouldn't suggest adding it to your guide. While it plays similarly to the core magus, the change in casting would make it a larger project than you should take up.

If you decide to add it in on your own accord, I suggest linking to Stacks handbook The Orrery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?434247-the-Orrery-a-Handbook-to-the-Spheres-of-Power&p=19676212#post19676212) and note that most of the information you have is still valid, except for metamagic feats being much less viable for the Magus, due to spontaneous style casting time increases.

[upho]

Thank you. Seize the Opportunity is not so great because you can already use trip and disarm as an attack of opportunity.For magi in general, I guess StO can be interesting primarily because it makes focusing on dirty trick much more worthwhile, giving a potentially highly effective debuff/control tool without opponent size caps and which remains largely unaffected by immunities even in higher levels. Both trip and disarm are, or at least become in later levels, significantly more limited in most games IME.

Especially for a Str-size-reach AoO build, it can also really ramp up damage via Vital Strike (for example combined with trip generated AoOs). Or control/mobility shenanigans with bull rush and/or overrun (and for example a 2-level dip into siegebreaker fighter for extra fun).

Finally, if someone ever makes a grapple focused magus build viable, StO allows you to both initiate and then immediately maintain a grapple (with some supporting options), tying up a foe using only two AoOs. Hilarious and potentially devastatingly effective, although admittedly probably not particularly fitting for magus based builds.


Elemental Focus feat doesn't seem to work on spell damage or magic weapon damage, meaning that it remains a good choice to pick a different element. I haven't gotten around to adding specific disciplines yet.Yeah, it's not very interesting before 10th level, although it can have some limited benefits earlier if focusing on Elemental Flux.


Dragon's Breath is a decent choice.Yep. I realize my suggestion of Pyrotechnic Eruption was highly colored by the specific context of a bladecaster.

[Kurald Galain]

Visualization of the Body / Mind spells (which are ridiculously powerful and prime banning material for PFS)

The item Saliharion is a good deal for anyone who's into knowledge checks (and seems like banhammer material for PFS, really).

Called it :)


Also, added the Saliharion and the Free Spirit spell.

[Kurald Galain]

So, this month's book is Blood of Beasts. It contains some interesting spells for the Magus including Bit of Luck, Curse of Befouled Fortune, Gullibility, Pouncing Fury. There's also the Naga Shape line of spells, but changing into a form without arms is not a great plan for a melee character.

Also, the kitsune can now be a dex/int race, and vanara can be small-sized (giving bonuses to hit and AC as usual).

[Laharal]

Hello, first time Magus here,

I'm wondering what are good options for exiting from combat/threatened spaces. I had my first combat game yesterday (lvl 4) and I've found myself in a situation where an ''in-attack-out'' or ''easy-out'' tactic would had been useful.

Anything to suggest? Might that be a feat, item, spell (I really don't know all spells so forgive of my ignorance).

I'm planning for an Int/Dex build.

Many thanks!

[Kurald Galain]

I'm wondering what are good options for exiting from combat/threatened spaces. I had my first combat game yesterday (lvl 4) and I've found myself in a situation where an ''in-attack-out'' or ''easy-out'' tactic would had been useful.

I suggest Vanish (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish).

[Cieyrin]

I suggest Vanish (www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/v/vanish).

Illusion of Calm (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/illusion-of-calm) also works and doesn't require recasting after you pop your Vanish with an attack. Of course, it becomes less useful if your attackers disbelieve it but either is a temporary solution in combat, anyways.

[Laharal]

Thanks!

1) Any teleportation spells you'd recommend (ready to achieve via spell blending if needed) ?
2) Why is the improved critical feat not on the list? I understand that at lvl 5 you could use keen, but on the other hand this feat is a means to have the same effect without spending arcana points or money (to hard-enchant). So there is obviously a good reason that I don't know yet. What did I miss?
3) Finally, I'm wondering what would be my bread-and-butter damage spell at mid and high levels. I know (thanks to this guide) that an intensified/maximized shocking grasp can go a long way but at one point it will still be in need of remplacement ,right? (If yes, near what levels do you guys recommend switching to another dmg spell?).

I really appreciate your help guys,

[Kurald Galain]

You're welcome!

(1) There are surprisingly few combat teleport spells, and Magus already gets the good ones (Storm Step and Dimension Door).
(2) Because you have much better things to spend your feat slots on, but not many better things to spend a +1 weapon enchantment on.
(3) Try Vampiric Touch and Corrosive Consumption.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I'll second that Improved Critical is not a feat that should be taken. Having to not worry about activating Keen is all well and good, but by the time you get the feat, the list of things worth adding to your sword is... painfully small. I took it with a Bladebound character, and he was constantly scratching at the +5 cap for weapons. I wouldn't say it's a trap option, since it certainly does help your character, but I certainly felt limited.

[Kosryn]

I just registered to say I really enjoyed your guide. I have a question on your Eldritch Scion build though. What school do you recommend for Spell Focus? Also, what spell do you recommend for Spontaneous Metafocus?

[Serafina]

Worth mentioning, for the Eldritch Scion at least:
Divine Anthology also has the Divine Fighting Technique "Desnas Shooting Star". It allows you to use your Charisma-modifier for attack and damage with a Starknife. Which isn't the best weapon for a Magus - it only has a 20 crit range - but going SAD can be pretty good.
I think it's worth a mention on the Charisma-magus at least.

[Kosryn]

The other question is any thoughts on the Moonlight Stalker feat, since you rate Blind Fighting high, but is it worth a feat for Combat Expertise?

[Kurald Galain]

I just registered to say I really enjoyed your guide. I have a question on your Eldritch Scion build though. What school do you recommend for Spell Focus? Also, what spell do you recommend for Spontaneous Metafocus?
Thank you. In this case I'd recommend Spell Focus Conjuration (for the battlefield control spells) or Evocation (for fireball), and Spont Metafocus Fireball. Optionally, dip into crossblooded sorcerer to boost your damage.


Divine Anthology also has the Divine Fighting Technique "Desnas Shooting Star".
Good catch. And yes, a SAD character is very good to have, especially if you take feats like Scion of War (cha to initiative).


The other question is any thoughts on the Moonlight Stalker feat, since you rate Blind Fighting high, but is it worth a feat for Combat Expertise?
CE by itself is pretty worthless. MS is therefore spending two feats for a +2/+2 (as long as you have certain buffs active to grant you concealment). That's basically the equivalent of taking Weapon Focus and Weapon Spec (which are always on). Frankly the Magus already has very high spike damage and good buff spells, so these feats aren't needed. I'd rank them all orange (ok but not spectactular, and you can do much better).

[AzureDidact]

Thanks!

1) Any teleportation spells you'd recommend (ready to achieve via spell blending if needed) ?
2) Why is the improved critical feat not on the list? I understand that at lvl 5 you could use keen, but on the other hand this feat is a means to have the same effect without spending arcana points or money (to hard-enchant). So there is obviously a good reason that I don't know yet. What did I miss?
3) Finally, I'm wondering what would be my bread-and-butter damage spell at mid and high levels. I know (thanks to this guide) that an intensified/maximized shocking grasp can go a long way but at one point it will still be in need of remplacement ,right? (If yes, near what levels do you guys recommend switching to another dmg spell?).

I really appreciate your help guys,

If you're looking for mid level blasting spells, I became REALLY fond of using "Storm of Blades" in conjunction with Arcane Accuracy to fire off Large-sized Great Swords. Extra points for firing them through an Augmenting Wall and boosting the damage with Arcane Strike.

Extra, Extra points if you use the False Focus feat to eliminate the material cost of swords. :smallcool:

[Kurald Galain]

If you're looking for mid level blasting spells, I became REALLY fond of using "Storm of Blades"
There's several reason why that doesn't work. First, arcane accuracy cannot be used together with arcane strike (because both require a swift action). Second, SOB doesn't work with false focus (since it explicitly makes a copy of the weapon you're holding, and you're not holding any). Third, SOB doesn't work with augmenting wall (since SOB's swords are neither a thrown weapon nor ammunition). Fourth, SOB explicitly creates standard weapons, meaning it doesn't work for large or huge weapons. And fifth, because SOB creates standard weapons, it doesn't copy the bonus from arcane strike either.

Storm of Blades is a really bad spell, really not something to recommend for blasting. Just go with Scorching Ray or Snowball, they're much better (primarily because they're both touch attacks).

[Laharal]

Howdy,
I used spell combat and spellstrike today for the first time and I just wanted to check some details with you guys, in order to be extra sure.

A)In a round when I cast a spell and then fail the attack, I can hold the charge until my next attack hits right? (from my standard attack in the same turn or my next round's attack or even an AOO).

B) In a second attempt to hit with my weapon (with a held spell), I do not incur the -2 penalty to attack of spell combat.

C) I do not lose a spell prepared with spellstrike if I miss a traget due to incorporeality.

D) I saw in the Ultimate Magic FAQ http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fz#v5748eaic9oym : Magus: Can a magus use spellstrike (page 10) to cast a touch spell, move, and make a melee attack with a weapon to deliver the touch spell, all in the same round?

Yes. Other than deploying the spell with a melee weapon attack instead of a melee touch attack, the magus spellstrike ability doesn’t change the normal rules for using touch spells in combat (Core Rulebook page 185).
--------
So if I understand correctly, as long as I don't make all my other iterative attacks, casting+hitting like this doesn't count as a full-round, thus I can move in this context?

Many thanks for your help guys!

[Kurald Galain]

Howdy,
I used spell combat and spellstrike today for the first time and I just wanted to check some details with you guys, in order to be extra sure.

A) Correct, assuming you're casting a touch spell.

B) If it's still your same turn, then you do take the penalty. If the attack is on your next round (or an AOO) then you don't take the penalty.

C) Well, you've still cast the spell so it's not prepared any more. But yes you'd be holding the charge.

D) Yes, and since this isn't spell combat you don't take the -2 either.

[Laharal]

Thanks for the help with all the mechanics of the magus.

It really felt good to discharge my first shocking grasp through a weapon while having the only magic weapon in the group! (against incorporeal creatures, nonetheless)

Shock them all!

[Kurald Galain]

It looks like nothing in either Paths of the Righteous or The First World is particularly applicable to the Magus, although there is now a feat that lets you treat the first level of any prestige class as "+1 level of spellcasting" (as long as the prestige class offers that on at least one higher level). That may open up some options.

[TiaC]

It looks like nothing in either Paths of the Righteous or The First World is particularly applicable to the Magus, although there is now a feat that lets you treat the first level of any prestige class as "+1 level of spellcasting" (as long as the prestige class offers that on at least one higher level). That may open up some options.

I would disagree with this.

The Bladed Brush feat on page 15 of PotR lets you use spell combat and weapon finesse with a glaive, as well as allowing you to remove its reach if you want.

A dip into Brewkeeper lets you turn all your buffs into potions and then drink them quickly with Accelerated Drinker or Potion Glutton.

Also, one PrC from elsewhere that could be nice is a Diabolist dip. It's easy to enter, just requiring you to buy a scroll of Planar Binding. The first level makes you harder to raise or resurrect, but you get an Imp Animal Companion at your caster level.

[Kurald Galain]

The Bladed Brush feat on page 15 of PotR lets you use spell combat and weapon finesse with a glaive
Yeah, that was my first reading as well. But on second glance, spell combat doesn't just require a one-handed weapon, but also that you have your other hand free. And Bladed Brush doesn't help with that.

[Kurald Galain]

Re-reading the prestige classes from Path of the Righteous, it looks like Brewmaster is extremely good for a Magus. Not for drinking buff spells more quickly (because per the FAQ that doesn't work), but for the free Empower Spell several times per day, adding save-or-daze to any touch attack, and using your own caster level for potions you drink. Just watch your swift actions.

Stargazer is also a good pick, because you get a free familiar even with a one-level dip, and the prereqs are easy. You get one hex, which is particularly nice for the hexcrafter archetype (and by my reading, they stack). Also, you can get +4 on death saves, +10' to speed, and/or ignore the flatfooted condition. The domain/mystery/spirit abilities are unimpressive but hey, gift horse.

[TiaC]

Yeah, that was my first reading as well. But on second glance, spell combat doesn't just require a one-handed weapon, but also that you have your other hand free. And Bladed Brush doesn't help with that.

Ah, it just says "as if you were not making attacks with your off-hand", not as if you had it free. My bad.


Re-reading the prestige classes from Path of the Righteous, it looks like Brewmaster is extremely good for a Magus. Not for drinking buff spells more quickly (because per the FAQ that doesn't work), but for the free Empower Spell several times per day, adding save-or-daze to any touch attack, and using your own caster level for potions you drink. Just watch your swift actions.

The FAQ says that Accelerated Drinker doesn't work with extracts, but the Brewkeeper says "A draught functions as a potion or oil". So, Accelerated Drinker works just fine.

[Serafina]

If this doesn't get FAQed away (and let's face it, it probably won't), then Brewmaster + Accelerated Drinker is just incredibly strong for almost any spellcaster who casts spells on themselves. You can get up to three spells/round that way - standard-action cast, move-action drink, swift-action quickened cast. With just a single-level dip into a class that just requires worship, 5 useful skill points (alchemy) and a single feat.
Even if it does get FAQed, it's still really good since it allows you to just have your allies buff themselves, vastly improving your action economy.

For the Magus it's not even that good, since it doesn't work with spell combat. And neither can you make use of the Blade and Tankard style (which would allow you to take a drink instead of an off-hand attack), since it requires two-weapon fighting.

And then there's the possible shenanigans from the "functions as a potion or oil" clause. Can you use a Bountiful Bottle (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Bountiful%20Bo ttle) with it to create free, permanent potions? Does it work with a Chalice of Communal Dweomer (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Chalice%20of%2 0Communal%20Dweomer)?

[TiaC]

And then there's the possible shenanigans from the "functions as a potion or oil" clause. Can you use a Bountiful Bottle (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Bountiful%20Bo ttle) with it to create free, permanent potions? Does it work with a Chalice of Communal Dweomer (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Chalice%20of%2 0Communal%20Dweomer)?

It shouldn't work with Bountiful Bottle, because it only lasts 24 hours and the bottle takes a full 24 hours to work. You could use a Bountiful Bottle on a potion of Alchemical Allocation to replace Echoing spell though. I can't see why it wouldn't work with the chalice though. A high level alchemist could use this with eternal potion.

[Kurald Galain]

the Brewkeeper says "A draught functions as a potion or oil"
Ah, that's good. I was worried they had created yet another type of potion-like objects that don't count as potions.

Of course, the brewmaster is disallowed in PFS (because it has Brew Potion as a prereq) so that means they probably won't errata it. Yes, that makes it a very good prestige class, and since Paizo doesn't have a lot of those I welcome the addition. I'd say that it works fine with the Chalice (although the chalice explicitly requires a standard action) and that's a good combo; and that the bountiful bottle gives a potion with the exact same expiration limits as the original (meaning it's effectively a cheaper-but-slower Pearl of Power for the brewmaster).

[Kurald Galain]

Added Brewkeeper and Stargazer prestige classes; Spell Spec, Varisian Tattoo, Moonlight Assault, Divine Fighting, and Bodyguard feats; Kitsune race; cutlass and starknife weapons; Sword Scion trait; Slippers of Scampering and Necklace of Stolen Breath items; Glibness and Gullibility spells. Also, the guide now indicates which spells ignore spell resistance, and which have no somatic component. Notably, Storm Step and Dimension Door can be cast while you're grappled.

[longanxy]

raven's flight is also a spell without somatic component. It's useful in complicated terrain (especially in earlier levels), but can hardly do what fly or flight hex could.

[aonar]

Was wondering what you thought of the Souleater(drinker) Prestige class for a magus?

I'm not sure if the level drain ability would work through spellstrike, but it could be houseruled to.

[Kurald Galain]

I'm not sure if the level drain ability would work through spellstrike

It doesn't, and neither does it work with spell combat. That makes it not such a good choice for the Magus; a more straightforward approach would be to use Spell Blending to add Enervation to your list.

[Kurald Galain]

Predictably, this month's release of the Healer's Handbook contains absolutely nothing for the Magus (who can be a lot of things, but is clearly not a healer). Paging through it I must say it's one of the least interesting player companion books I've seen from Paizo.

[Serafina]

Predictably, this month's release of the Healer's Handbook contains absolutely nothing for the Magus (who can be a lot of things, but is clearly not a healer). Paging through it I must say it's one of the least interesting player companion books I've seen from Paizo.The Alchemist-Archetype is actually pretty great - optimize it for reach (you just need it for touch-attacks, so some sorcerer bloodlines work well, though there's also other means) and you essentially got swift-action healing for anyone in a good radius. One that can even be used to deliver buffs.
Paladins get one really great Mercy that grants fast-healing. Druids get to worship a deity and take one it's domains. (And also get utterly broken free potion crafting).

But overall, you're right - most of the stuff just doesn't address the main problem with healing, that which attempts to do so does so poorly, and generally most of the stuff is underwhelming.

[Aldrakan]

It doesn't, and neither does it work with spell combat. That makes it not such a good choice for the Magus; a more straightforward approach would be to use Spell Blending to add Enervation to your list.

Late here, but if I understand correctly it could be used infinitely with a Conductive weapon, adding 1-4 negative levels and +5-20 temp HP to one hit/round without interfering with normal actions. It's probably still not worth it; you'd need to get enchantment the hard way unless you're a gnome and the rest of the souleater's features are pretty lackluster for you, but they are nice enough to reward crit-fishing.

[Triskavanski]

Predictably, this month's release of the Healer's Handbook contains absolutely nothing for the Magus (who can be a lot of things, but is clearly not a healer). Paging through it I must say it's one of the least interesting player companion books I've seen from Paizo.

Well not absolutly nothing. The hexes could be used by a hex crafter. And there is a few feats in there that a magus could use for things, some with a bit of mechanic acrobatics. Like Combat Vigor. While I'd never spend a feat on it, if there is anyway for a magus to get martial flexibliity or something similar its useful.

But overall I'd agree it was a bit of a bleh book. Many of the recent Player's companions changed the rules on things. Like Armor Masters/Weapon Masters, made fighters not suck as much.

This book was like "Yo dawg, Healer classes can heal."

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I heard alchemists got a fun archetype, but not much else. What new hexes, and what does Combat Vigor do?

[Triskavanski]

Combat vigor You fatigue yourself for a minute to heal a paltry sum of HP

Hexes, one allows you to temp suppress some negative status effects for a few minutes. Another lets you supress a few others, Another gives fast healing. Another is a weird semi-resurrection spell.

[Ilorin Lorati]

While I'd never spend a feat on it, if there is anyway for a magus to get martial flexibliity or something similar its useful.

Barroom Brawler is a 1/day feat. Myrmidarch can increase that a little bit, up to 6/day with Gloves of Dueling, though it just feeds into still not being enough to salvage the archy.

[Kurald Galain]

Well not absolutly nothing. The hexes could be used by a hex crafter. And there is a few feats in there that a magus could use for things,
Obviously I didn't mean that it contains no options a Magus can take, but that it contains no options that are good for a Magus, or at least good enough to mention in this guide. A hex that could suppress stun or nauseate would be interesting; a hex that can suppress fatigue and shaken, not so much.

The blightbreaker is interesting (if not so much for a Magus) because nothing says that you can't have multiple Touch Injections active at the same time (although the intent was probably only one).


Like Combat Vigor. While I'd never spend a feat on it
Yes, that's what I meant.

[Kurald Galain]

Added arcane shield and disruptive recall feats; trap finder trait; cosmic ray, telekinetic strikes and debilitating pain spells. And looking into the new Phantom Blade archetype, which is technically a spiritualist but practically a Magus.

[the_archduke]

You mention it as a prereq for style feats, but I think an expansion on the Martial Training feat could be useful. Scarlet throne especially because Scarlet Einhander is amazing on a Magus.

[the_archduke]

You rated Close Range Arcana pretty low, but there are some really good options of ray spells that would be great with the critical potential of a keen rapier/scimitar/etc

*spells not on magus list, but can be added

0: Ray of Frost - Extra cold damage on your spell combat attack, great for spamming
0: Disrupt Undead - Even more damage for spell combat (undead only)
1: Ray of Enfeeblement - 2d6+10 strength penalty on a crit (fort/half, but still)
1: *Ray of Sickening - no crit potential, but added for completeness, sickened on failed save (unless you can convince GM to let it nauseate on a crit)
2: *Blinding Ray - [good] cleric spell, for vampire hunting magi 2d4 rounds blind plus 10d4 damage on a crit to something light vulnerable
3: Ray of Exhaustion - no returning full attacks from opponent, fatigued even on successful save
3: *Heatstroke - Ray of Exhaustion plus 1d4 nonlethal and -4 to saves if they are armored
4: *Enervation - 2d4 negative levels on a crit
5: *Wracking Ray - 10d4 strength and dex penalty on crit
5: Cosmic Ray - 2xCLd6 damage on a crit, save is only for sickening, not damage OMGWTFBBQ
6: Disintegrate - 4xCLd6 damage on a crit, it does allow a save which reduces damage significantly
6: *Hellfire Ray - damage is not as good as Cosmic Ray, but the rider could be useful to prevent resurrection?


Scorching ray, contagious flame, admonishing ray, etc are rays but not good for this purpose.

Tl/dr: Ray of Frost, Disrupt Undead, Ray of Enfeeblement, Ray of Exhaustion, Enervation, Wracking Ray and Cosmic Ray make Close Range Arcana a valid build choice

[Kurald Galain]

Added Redirect Attack feat; ectoplasmatist (it's a trap!) and phantom blade (good but not great) archetypes; Disrupt Undead, Good Hope, and Gallant Inspiration spells; blighted physiology trait; souleater prestige class; and cestus weapon.


You rated Close Range Arcana pretty low, but there are some really good options of ray spells that would be great with the critical potential of a keen rapier/scimitar/etc
While some of these are indeed good spells to use, what you're overlooking is that they don't really become better with the close range arcana. This is because you cannot control when you crit or not, and because spells like Cosmic Ray are lethal even without the crit. You'd be better off saving your arcana and casting the spell as a ray.


(unless you can convince GM to let it nauseate on a crit)
I am rating the spells as written, not as you might be able to convince your GM to houserule, and not as they work against one specific rarely-encountered monster type. Compared to other spells of its level, ray of sicken and exhaust (and for that matter, wracking) just aren't so great.

[Malacandra]

I've nothing of substance to add except a big Thank You. My son wanted to play a magus in a campaign I'm starting up and I had no idea how they worked. This entire thread is made of 22-carat win, beginning with the title which is sheer poetry. Thumbs way, way up!

[Kurald Galain]

I've nothing of substance to add except a big Thank You. My son wanted to play a magus in a campaign I'm starting up and I had no idea how they worked. This entire thread is made of 22-carat win, beginning with the title which is sheer poetry. Thumbs way, way up!
You're welcome :smallsmile:

Also, I've checked the new Monster Hunter's Handbook, and added the monster stalker trait; knowledgeable spellcaster, creature focus, and favored enemy spellcasting feats; and the resinous skin, tiny hut, huntmaster's spear and slick wall spells. If I've missed anything that'd be relevant for a Magus, please let me know.

[Florian]

You might add "Creature Focus" (p. 22). It´s actually pretty decent in APs/campaigns with a heavy focus on certain creature types and opens up the option für "Favored Spellcasting" or other equipment/feats that need Favored Enemy as a prerequisite.

Edit: You´re nor running out of giants in Giant Slayer, Humans in Hell´s Rebels, Undead in Mummy´s Curse, and so on, making it a very cheap WepSpec-knock-off.

[Kurald Galain]

other equipment/feats that need Favored Enemy as a prerequisite.
Such as? I've seen that it counts as a prereq but don't see anything useful to take with it.

[Florian]

Such as? I've seen that it counts as a prereq but don't see anything useful to take with it.

This depends on whether we´re talking general or with a specific AP in mind. Generally, there´s a good synergy with Favored Enemy Spellcasting and Foebane Magic, a windseeker bow is a good way to keep stacking bleed damage for a ranged magus.

[adjerram]

hey just wanted to say thank you for the amazing guide!! im pretty new to the D&D and Pathfinder scene and decided to pick up magus (this is my second campaign, first spellcasting). i had a couple of questions. Im only level three but i copied your flamestaff prebuilt character. My GM told me that everytime that i go and do the spellcombat trick where i cast a touch attack and get my free attack that it provokes AOO. How am i to avoid this, do i just stand 5ft out do my thing and do a 5ft step in?:smallconfused: also i saw in the thread but not the build, but if i go more CC than dmg should i focus conjuration rather than evocation, and if that is the only little tweak i make? sorry for the wall of text and questions just trying to wrap my head around the magus and how to use him in combat lol.

[Kurald Galain]

hey just wanted to say thank you for the amazing guide!! im pretty new to the D&D and Pathfinder scene and decided to pick up magus (this is my second campaign, first spellcasting). i had a couple of questions. Im only level three but i copied your flamestaff prebuilt character. My GM told me that everytime that i go and do the spellcombat trick where i cast a touch attack and get my free attack that it provokes AOO. How am i to avoid this, do i just stand 5ft out do my thing and do a 5ft step in?:smallconfused: also i saw in the thread but not the build, but if i go more CC than dmg should i focus conjuration rather than evocation, and if that is the only little tweak i make? sorry for the wall of text and questions just trying to wrap my head around the magus and how to use him in combat lol.

Thanks, it's always nice to hear that people are enjoying my favorite class.

Your GM is correct that spellcasting provokes an AOO, and yes you can deal with this by standing away to cast, then 5' stepping up to deliver the touch. You can also deal with this by casting defensively: at low levels, use a cantrip so it's no big deal if you fail the check; at moderate levels you can do this reliably. Another way to mitigate AOOs is by putting up Mirror Image or other defensive spells.

And yes, if you want BFC then you pick BFC spells, most of which are conjuration. Mix and match as you want, as learning new spells is cheap. HTH!

[adjerram]

is casting defensively a niche thing to do at lower levels or is this something i need to learn how to do? Because as of now the only thing i really know how to do is ready an action lol....:smalleek:

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Casting defensively doesn't take an action; it's something you do when you cast the spell. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/#TOC-Concentration) You're always going to have to do it if you are casting in melee range, but it gets easier with levels and items.

[Kurald Galain]

From Heroes of the Darklands, added Obscuring Beacon feat, Grasp and Rock Whip spells, clear ear and focus chew items. Also, they've finally updated the list of PFS-legal options (which, predictably, turns out almost all of them except the Debilitating Pain spell).

[Florian]

From Heroes of the Darklands, added Obscuring Beacon feat, Grasp and Rock Whip spells, clear ear and focus chew items. Also, they've finally updated the list of PFS-legal options (which, predictably, turns out almost all of them except the Debilitating Pain spell).

The real gem here is Shadowfade (p.9). This gives you conditional invisibility as a 1st level spell, to use with the Eldritch Assault feat.

[Kurald Galain]

The real gem here is Shadowfade (p.9).

That seems like a pretty bad spell. It only works in darkness or dim light (whereas your party is very likely to have a light source up) and it only works against creatures actively using darkvision (which they can shut off whenever needed, and which doesn't work against magical darkness anyway). Not a good combo.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, looks like we're up for another red-rated Magus archetype from the Adventurer's Guide. But other than that, there appear to be a number of useful spells and items in there. I'm making a list, if people have recommendations then please share them.

[Florian]

It´s sad, yes. The Cypher Lodge section was the one I was looking forward to and it´s pretty disappointing. So far, the most interesting spells and feats seem to be in the Swordlord section, with Contest of Skill and Tactical Adaption standing out.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I should mention that the Path of War errata changed the Martial Training feats so you choose your initiator modifier from your mental stats as opposed to having it decided based off the discipline skills. Opens up a lot of disciplines that would otherwise have required MAD, such as Scarlet Throne (the one with the Einhander stance). Also, I'm playing that hexcrafter that uses Cursed Razor maneuvers, and it's going pretty well.

[Ellrin]

I should mention that the Path of War errata changed the Martial Training feats so you choose your initiator modifier from your mental stats as opposed to having it decided based off the discipline skills. Opens up a lot of disciplines that would otherwise have required MAD, such as Scarlet Throne (the one with the Einhander stance). Also, I'm playing that hexcrafter that uses Cursed Razor maneuvers, and it's going pretty well.

It also specified that extra damage from maneuvers or stances isn't multiplied on a crit, which may affect crit-fishing initiating maguses.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It also specified that extra damage from maneuvers or stances isn't multiplied on a crit, which may affect crit-fishing initiating maguses.

True, but the utility of some maneuvers does not change. Also, non-increasing damage on crits isn't something a magus is unfamiliar with (since they can enchant their weapons with Burning/Shocking/Frost).

[g51503john]

Elven Leafblade and Elven Thornblade in the Adventurers' Guide are good weapons.

Both two weapons can apply Weapon Finesse, have cri 18-20, and have +2 on critical confirmation.
The only drawback is that both weapons are exotics weapons.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Unless I'm missing something, elven magi would by default have proficiency in them.

[SaintNick]

I should mention that the Path of War errata changed the Martial Training feats so you choose your initiator modifier from your mental stats as opposed to having it decided based off the discipline skills. Opens up a lot of disciplines that would otherwise have required MAD, such as Scarlet Throne (the one with the Einhander stance). Also, I'm playing that hexcrafter that uses Cursed Razor maneuvers, and it's going pretty well.

I wonder if it was intentional that the initiator level cap was also removed from the Martial Training feat chain.

Edit: Looks like it was added to the general Initiator Level description. Though it seems more like RAI then RAW that it applies to the feat chain.

[Serafina]

Well, looks like we're up for another red-rated Magus archetype from the Adventurer's Guide. But other than that, there appear to be a number of useful spells and items in there. I'm making a list, if people have recommendations then please share them.That archetype would be okay-ish if the first ability didn't replace spellstrike. I mean, it's just +1 to attacks in exchange for -2 to attack in some cases, and the ability not to cast certain spells for the day - that's pretty neutral and could have easily been a free feature of the archetype.
But nope, it has to replace something and for whatever reason a core feature of the Magus was chosen. Heck, even replacing an Arcana would have been too much IMO but at least it wouldn't cripple the character.

And it's not like the 7th-level feature is so strong as to be worth that. It's some energy resistance and eventually +2 to AC, that hardly breaks anything.


Deivons Parry is interesting as a first-level immediate-action spell. The parry isn't that strong on account of working off your medium BAB, but it's still worth a mention for later levels where you can spare first-level spell slots on something like that.

Tactical Adaptation is yet another way to get temporary bonus combat feats. Someone should write a guide about the things you can do with those at some point, but Brawler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367839-The-Wombo-Combo-Martial-Flexibility-Combinations-Thread) guides (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uhCZmbd8MUoro9RbeUQPuJBQvIjmIzEEKza8R0JBVKs/edit) have a small section on those.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Deivon's Parry and Tactical Adaptation spells, both rated blue (and likely to end up banned in PFS). Added sigilus archetype, rated red only because I don't have any worse colors than that. Downrated Magic Warrior archetype since it got nerfed in the new book. Added thornblade (which is arguably best on a half-elf, which also gets proficiency).

[TiaC]

You rated Visualization of the Body blue, but did you notice the 200 gp material component cost?

[Kurald Galain]

You rated Visualization of the Body blue, but did you notice the 200 gp material component cost?

Yes. That's a cost comparable to a second-level scroll or potion, which should be pocket change for a moderate-level adventurer. Of course, you'd cast Vis/Body only when you're heading into trouble, not every day as default (like e.g. Mage Armor or Prot from Arrows).

[Florian]

Tactical Adaptation is yet another way to get temporary bonus combat feats. Someone should write a guide about the things you can do with those at some point, but Brawler (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?367839-The-Wombo-Combo-Martial-Flexibility-Combinations-Thread) guides (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uhCZmbd8MUoro9RbeUQPuJBQvIjmIzEEKza8R0JBVKs/edit) have a small section on those.

A guide to creating Schrödingers Fighter? Very tough topic to handle considering the whole material that´s available right now and considering that most guides have stopped being updated, this one here standing out for the continued work on it.

[Kurald Galain]

A guide to creating Schrödingers Fighter? Very tough topic to handle considering the whole material that´s available right now and considering that most guides have stopped being updated, this one here standing out for the continued work on it.

Oddly, the common view on the Paizo forums is that guides written five or more years ago are better than any of the new guides (even if it's on the same class and even if the newer guide contains more material). Obviously this doesn't give people an incentive to update anything :smallconfused:

[Florian]

Oddly, the common view on the Paizo forums is that guides written five or more years ago are better than any of the new guides (even if it's on the same class and even if the newer guide contains more material). Obviously this doesn't give people an incentive to update anything :smallconfused:

The only explanation I can come up with is that people want things to be easy, get a short guided tour on a class and then simply pick one of the example builds and be done with it.
Updating the available material means you actually have to read, understand and make choices based on your (now hopefully expanded) understanding of a class, but that´s actually not treated as a very desirable thing.

[stormsouldevil]

That.... is problematic.

Separate thing, is power attack really that bad? My GM is letting me do it 2 handed so Im getting a higher damage and with Furious focus that gets pretty useful.

[Florian]

That.... is problematic.

Separate thing, is power attack really that bad? My GM is letting me do it 2 handed so Im getting a higher damage and with Furious focus that gets pretty useful.

Your gm doesn´t have to allow you that, as you can 2H any one-handed (non-light) weapon anyways.
PA is just not as useful on a Magus as it scales with BAB and you have to counter the drop in precision with your arcane pool.

[stormsouldevil]

Good to know. Any good retraining options for the 2?

Currently I got, at level 9

1Toughness
Human bonus:
3Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
5Intensify Spell:
5b Weapon Focus
7Craft Wonderous Item
9

[Krazzman]

That.... is problematic.

Separate thing, is power attack really that bad? My GM is letting me do it 2 handed so Im getting a higher damage and with Furious focus that gets pretty useful.

For most Magi not. A strength based Magus might have a use for it but in most cases spell combat and other things already diminish your to-hit which means you either find yourself not really using it as your modus operandi is Spell strike or spell combat.

Furthermore your PA is weaker than other front liners and you have other thing's to focus on which in turn raise opportunity costs.

For example if you would be playing a gestalt magus//slayer it might be more useful as it has higher returns and you have more resources.

[stormsouldevil]

Ty, but still at a bit of a loss on what to take in place of them.

[Florian]

Ty, but still at a bit of a loss on what to take in place of them.

Can´t help you unless you state your current build, archetype used and game style.

[stormsouldevil]

Ask and you shall receive. :D
Stats are at level 9 with magic items 24 str, 16 dex, 14con, 23int, 10 wis, and 7 cha.
AC is 35 with shield cast.

str build, bladebound/hexcrafter (for flight)

Feats are-
1Toughness
Human bonus:
3Weapon Proficiency Bastard Sword
5Intensify Spell:
5b Weapon Focus
7Craft Wonderous Item
9
Arcana are Enduring blade, and Hasted assault.

Not sure what you mean on game style but we are running through Rise of the Runelords. Fairly heavy on comabt. Was playing Magus as a smart fighter kinda deal but we are getting a fighter finally (Rotating door of players sadly.)

[Florian]

Ask and you shall receive. :D
Stats are 24 str, 16 dex, 14con, 23int, 10 wis, and 7 cha.

str build, bladebound/hexcrafter (for flight)

Feats are above
Arcana are Enduring blade, and Hasted assault.

Not sure what you mean on game style but we are running through Rise of the Runelords. Fairly heavy on comabt. Was playing Magus as a smart fighter kinda deal but we are getting a fighter finally (Rotating door of players sadly.)

Style is about Shocking Grasp build, or more general BFC build, being conservative with spell use or going nova, and so on. Generally speaking going for the Eldritch Assault feat chain works on most Magus builds.

[stormsouldevil]

Ive been using SG and Mask of Goz+Obscuring Mist (occasionally with enlarge thrown in) I dont get to do the latter a lot but Ive turned 2 or 3 big encounters into clean up fests because of it.

I imagine you mean improved initiative, blind fight, and Eldritch assualt. Not seeing a lot of other feats keyed there. And only seeing minimal usage for EA because I dont use Vanish very often. It might help with my ObscurringMist shenenigans though.

[Florian]

Lvl 10 gives you Greater Invisibility. Instead of +4 crit confirmation roll, you can auto-confirm crits then.

[stormsouldevil]

I imagine our Rogue is going to be more absorbed with that spell. Ty though

[ChaosShadow00x]

Hi guys!

Thanks Kurald Galain for making this guide. I read it up and down and still refer to it constantly.

Was hoping that I could get some advice from fellow Magus players. I've been working on my first Magus, but soon as I read up on them I instantly fell in love. Mixing blade and magic is one of my favorite ways to play in any game. I find myself enthralled by the sheer flexibility of the Magus, and that they can be extremely competent even unsupported, unlike my other favorite class, the Rogue (though, my heavy rogue can handily take down targets alone, but it's the only build for them I've found that works, and gets odd glances from DM's and players alike being very atypical).


Anyway, I'll try to explain what I'm going for and what I've done towards that end, and also why so people can understand, so it'll be a bit of a wall of text, but I'll sum it up at the end.



Our party is small, and I'm trying to make my Magus competent in both their spells and maneuvers, as well as in frontline combat (damaging). So really, a bit of jack of trades.

To save on point buy, I've built a Tiefling Dex Magus landing at 8/19/14/16/10/7 (20pts) for my attributes. I've chosen the Blade Bound and HexCrafter archetypes for a kickass self upgrading, invulnerable weapon, as well as early access to flight and some extra debuff spells/abilities. Spell recall didnt seem a huge loss, as a Bladebound magus has fewer arcana to dish out, even though the Tiefling favored class still brings back barely above normal, I havnt asked my DM if I can just call it even.

Were currently level 3, so I obviously have the Weap. Finesse and Dervish Dance feats to make my dex build usable, but I'm having a very difficult time choosing which feats/arcana to pick up down the road. Or rather, when to pick them up, as I've made a shortlist of the ones I know I want, or would like.

At level 5, I really want to greatly expand my ability to consistently use spells, and am looking to pick up both Wand Wielder, as well as Spell Scars. I've talked to my GM, and being that Spell Scars leaves your offhand "free", and do not need to handle the scroll like scar, it can be used with Spell Strike/Combat. Wands will be dedicated to the level 1, perhaps lvl 2 spells I will cast at least once every combat, such as Shield, True Strike and Vanish.

Between these two, this will free up my Magus to allow her to instead prepare a wider variety of spells, and carry situational spells that are to be used less frequently in the form of Spell Scars (such as support/buff spells that may be useful, but not always). I really want to maximize the number and variety of spells I can use.

At level 7, I KNOW I will pickup Intensified spell to keep my Shocking Grasp relevant. I have taken the Magical Lineage trait so it will stay as a level 1 spell. This, once I can cast a few more of them, will be my go to "nuke" spell when I just want to hit something hard.

I will also take Lunge at level 9 for obvious reasons. As a Dex Magus, my AC will be great, and hitting things as reach is a huge enabler.

Beyond this, I've isolated an oodle of feats/arcana that I believe would support my build.

Accurate Strike: Because hitting things is good
Flamboyant Arcana: countering AoO's is good! But it's low on my list.
Hasted Assault: Haste is excellent. Always.
Misfortune: Very powerful debuff
Spell Shield: Potentially avoiding a powerful attack can save your life
Close Range Arcana: Enable many more spells to be used with Spell Strike/Combat

These are the feats I've plucked out, but cannot decide at what levels I should pick them up. There are also very likely other feats/arcana I should look at, but these jumped out at me.

Do note however that I've never had a campaign go past lvl 10, they usually die off well before that. I have a feeling however that this one may endure.

TL;DR

Condensing the above, I'd like to make a jack of all trades Magus leaning towards combat, maximize the number and variety of spells I have at my disposal, and still be solid and competent. I have picked a few feats that will directly benefit this, specifically the Dervish Dance line, and Wand Wielder/Spell Scars for spell count/variety. The rest, however, is very up in the air, at least as far as when things should be picked up.

If anyone is willing to give me some pointers, I would greatly appreciate that.


Bonus Question!

Is there a way to store/prepare MORE cantrips? Theres a few that I would rather like to have on hand, but not always, and rarely worth while to wait a full day to change my prepared cantrips to use.


Thanks!

[Ellrin]

Our party is small, and I'm trying to make my Magus competent in both their spells and maneuvers, as well as in frontline combat (damaging). So really, a bit of jack of trades.

To save on point buy, I've built a Tiefling Dex Magus landing at 8/19/14/16/10/7 (20pts) for my attributes. I've chosen the Blade Bound and HexCrafter archetypes for a kickass self upgrading, invulnerable weapon, as well as early access to flight and some extra debuff spells/abilities. Spell recall didnt seem a huge loss, as a Bladebound magus has fewer arcana to dish out, even though the Tiefling favored class still brings back barely above normal, I havnt asked my DM if I can just call it even.

In my opinion, I'd say the bladebound archetype puts you slightly below a vanilla magus's optimization potential at standard WBL, though that changes for the better the lower your campaign's WBL goes (and for the worse the higher it goes). Optimization obviously isn't everything, but it's something to consider, and the loss in potential flexibility (adding abilities to your weapon that aren't available through your arcane pool) definitely hurts a little.

For flight, I actually like Magic Warrior a little better than Hexcrafter, but Hexcrafter is significantly better overall (I think they stack, though?), and I've heard the new book nerfs Magic Warrior (though I haven't seen it so I don't know what the changes are).

Hexcrafter will definitely help you in the flexibility department--it's got some nice save-or-die hexes, as well as the various debuff, utility, and flavor hexes. If you get the arcana that lets you add all [curse] descriptor spells to your list, be sure to ask your DM at what level those will be at, since some are different for different classes.


Were currently level 3, so I obviously have the Weap. Finesse and Dervish Dance feats to make my dex build usable, but I'm having a very difficult time choosing which feats/arcana to pick up down the road. Or rather, when to pick them up, as I've made a shortlist of the ones I know I want, or would like.

At level 5, I really want to greatly expand my ability to consistently use spells, and am looking to pick up both Wand Wielder, as well as Spell Scars. I've talked to my GM, and being that Spell Scars leaves your offhand "free", and do not need to handle the scroll like scar, it can be used with Spell Strike/Combat. Wands will be dedicated to the level 1, perhaps lvl 2 spells I will cast at least once every combat, such as Shield, True Strike and Vanish.

Between these two, this will free up my Magus to allow her to instead prepare a wider variety of spells, and carry situational spells that are to be used less frequently in the form of Spell Scars (such as support/buff spells that may be useful, but not always). I really want to maximize the number and variety of spells I can use.

At level 7, I KNOW I will pickup Intensified spell to keep my Shocking Grasp relevant. I have taken the Magical Lineage trait so it will stay as a level 1 spell. This, once I can cast a few more of them, will be my go to "nuke" spell when I just want to hit something hard.

I will also take Lunge at level 9 for obvious reasons. As a Dex Magus, my AC will be great, and hitting things as reach is a huge enabler.

Beyond this, I've isolated an oodle of feats/arcana that I believe would support my build.

Accurate Strike: Because hitting things is good
Flamboyant Arcana: countering AoO's is good! But it's low on my list.
Hasted Assault: Haste is excellent. Always.
Misfortune: Very powerful debuff
Spell Shield: Potentially avoiding a powerful attack can save your life
Close Range Arcana: Enable many more spells to be used with Spell Strike/Combat

These are the feats I've plucked out, but cannot decide at what levels I should pick them up. There are also very likely other feats/arcana I should look at, but these jumped out at me.

I'd say the Slumber and (eventually) Ice Tomb hexes are going to be pretty important if you can get your Int up to a respectable level, since those will eventually end up as your highest DC save-or-lose abilities (and they target different saves), and have no limit on uses per day. If you grab those hexes, you might want to consider the Fey Hex trait, which once per day lets you retry a once/day/creature hex if it fails.

Other than those, the flight and misfortune hexes are pretty great.

As for intensified shocking grasp, I do want to point out the major alternative--rime frostbite. Intensified shocking grasp has a higher DPR potential, assuming an average of two successful attacks per round, starting at level 5 and lasting until level 13; frostbite's DPR potential (with two successful attacks per round) is higher at levels 1-4 and 15+ (they're tied at level 14). With an average of three successful attacks per round, frostbite is superior DPR at all levels (though obviously getting three+ attacks before level eight won't be an every combat sort of thing). Adding rime spell to the combination gives you the ability to auto-entangle enemies. Combine with the Enforcer feat and Blade of Mercy trait to apply shaken via Intimidate, too (you might want the Bruising Intellect trait and Skill Focus (Intimidate) for the best results there). Finally, if you can grab Piercing Cold (a metamagic feat from 3.5), your frostbite spell can overcome cold resistance. Obviously this combination only really starts shining after a certain level, and if you're in a campaign with a lot of enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting effects, the Intimidate stuff will be of lower consequence; and a campaign with lots of nonlethal immunity or fast healing/regeneration might make frostbite severely underpowered.

If you have access to third-party material (specifically DSP), you might consider the Deadly Agility feat instead of Dervish Dance--it's dex to damage on any finessable weapon with no restrictions, and after the recent errata only has Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite.

[Kurald Galain]

Good to know. Any good retraining options for the 2?

Currently I got, at level 9
If you're looking into retraining, note that toughness, weapon focus, and WP: bastard sword aren't particularly good feats either. And enduring blade is a rather weak arcana. Check the lists in the top posts for suggestions, e.g. Lunge, Step Up, or Blindfight. If you're working with concealment a lot then the Moonlit Stalker combo may be good.


In my opinion, I'd say the bladebound archetype puts you slightly below a vanilla magus's optimization potential at standard WBL,
In practice you'll be ahead of standard WBL, except at very high levels. Black blades are very powerful.


I've heard the new book nerfs Magic Warrior (though I haven't seen it so I don't know what the changes are).
Yes, their main ability goes from being usable at will to costing a pool point per usage.


As for intensified shocking grasp, I do want to point out the major alternative--rime frostbite. Intensified shocking grasp has a higher DPR potential,
As soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp. And you don't need any traits here: Frostbite already does non-lethal so Enforcer will trigger.

HTH!

[Ellrin]

As soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp. And you don't need any traits here: Frostbite already does non-lethal so Enforcer will trigger.

You do need to get a certain number of hits off per round to surpass an intensified shocking grasp, though. The higher your opponent's AC, the more valuable shocking grasp's single hit will be. If you can reliably hit at least three times per round, frostbite is always superior, but less than that and shocking grasp can surpass it at mid levels.

As for Blade of Mercy, I've seen some DMs point to the fact that the Enforcer feat specifies you have to do nonlethal damage "with a melee weapon" for its effect to work as justification for not allowing it to function with a frostbite spellstrike (since the nonlethal damage is coming from a spell, even if the spell is coming through the weapon). Obviously this is a table-by-table thing, so ymmv, I just wanted to point out the most widely acceptable method of achieving the desired end.

Besides, Blade of Mercy lets you get the effect even when using other spells, as well as giving you a +1 damage on just about every attack you'll ever make if you go with a nonlethal damage schtick, which is decent for a trait.

[Kurald Galain]

You do need to get a certain number of hits off per round to surpass an intensified shocking grasp, though.

Well, you actually need to calculate DPR based on the expected AC of monsters of that level, rather than assume a number of attacks. Somebody actually did that earlier in the thread :smallamused: The summary of that research was that, as soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp.

[ChaosShadow00x]

In my opinion, I'd say the bladebound archetype puts you slightly below a vanilla magus's optimization potential at standard WBL, though that changes for the better the lower your campaign's WBL goes (and for the worse the higher it goes). Optimization obviously isn't everything, but it's something to consider, and the loss in potential flexibility (adding abilities to your weapon that aren't available through your arcane pool) definitely hurts a little.

For flight, I actually like Magic Warrior a little better than Hexcrafter, but Hexcrafter is significantly better overall (I think they stack, though?), and I've heard the new book nerfs Magic Warrior (though I haven't seen it so I don't know what the changes are).

Hexcrafter will definitely help you in the flexibility department--it's got some nice save-or-die hexes, as well as the various debuff, utility, and flavor hexes. If you get the arcana that lets you add all [curse] descriptor spells to your list, be sure to ask your DM at what level those will be at, since some are different for different classes.



In practice you'll be ahead of standard WBL, except at very high levels. Black blades are very powerful.


I'm actually expecting my party to be well below WBL, as we do not have access to buy magical items for this first stretch of our campaign. Every DnD campaign I've actually been in, in fact, has been horribly below WBL. Sometimes by as much as 1/6th. ATM, I was allowed to build my Magus at level 3 with 2/3rds WBL. This makes the Black Blade's value go up dramatically just for being more reliable.



I'd say the Slumber and (eventually) Ice Tomb hexes are going to be pretty important if you can get your Int up to a respectable level, since those will eventually end up as your highest DC save-or-lose abilities (and they target different saves), and have no limit on uses per day. If you grab those hexes, you might want to consider the Fey Hex trait, which once per day lets you retry a once/day/creature hex if it fails.

Other than those, the flight and misfortune hexes are pretty great.

As for intensified shocking grasp, I do want to point out the major alternative--rime frostbite. Intensified shocking grasp has a higher DPR potential, assuming an average of two successful attacks per round, starting at level 5 and lasting until level 13; frostbite's DPR potential (with two successful attacks per round) is higher at levels 1-4 and 15+ (they're tied at level 14). With an average of three successful attacks per round, frostbite is superior DPR at all levels (though obviously getting three+ attacks before level eight won't be an every combat sort of thing). Adding rime spell to the combination gives you the ability to auto-entangle enemies. Combine with the Enforcer feat and Blade of Mercy trait to apply shaken via Intimidate, too (you might want the Bruising Intellect trait and Skill Focus (Intimidate) for the best results there). Finally, if you can grab Piercing Cold (a metamagic feat from 3.5), your frostbite spell can overcome cold resistance. Obviously this combination only really starts shining after a certain level, and if you're in a campaign with a lot of enemies immune to fear or mind-affecting effects, the Intimidate stuff will be of lower consequence; and a campaign with lots of nonlethal immunity or fast healing/regeneration might make frostbite severely underpowered.


I did not know about these other two Hexes! Though the background traits dont fit my character (build-wise, yes, background-wise, no. We have to justify this in our games), I will certainly add these hexes to my short list.

I have also taken a closer look at frostbite, and done some research using AnyDice. Assuming 2 landed hits, Sub level 5, Frostbite actually will deal MORE average damage at level 3, until 5. At level 5, shocking grasp averages .5 more, and this gap widens in shocking grasps favor for a good while, UNLESS, you can consistently land 3+ attacks.
Also, throughout and at any level, Shocking Grasp has more damage potential, but Frostbite has a MUCH higher minimum damage, usually around 50% more.

There is one thing I need to ask however, about Frostbite. I know that some of these touch spells allows you to continue to hold the charge if you miss I believe... If this applies to all remaining potential "uses" of the spell, Frostbite is CONSIDERABLY more efficient as a spell. At level 4, if all attacks from Spellstrike hit, you could use it for 2 rounds, casting Frostbite the first round, then shocking grasp the second. I have, so far, seen nothing that says that casting another touch attack spell overrides the previous spell cast. Even if it does, it still lasts for multiple rounds worth of attacks. If it works like this, then Frostbite is an INCREDIBLY powerful spell for Magus.



\output 0's are just for spacing when viewing summary. \
\Assuming a damage bonus of 5.\
\Assuming all attacks are landing\

\Level 2, 2 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 3, 2 attacks"
output 2d6+3d6+10 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 2d6+2d6+10+6 named "Frost Bite"

\Level 5, 2 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 5, 2 attacks"
output 2d6+5d6+10 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 2d6+2d6+10+10 named "Frost Bite"

\Level 8, 2 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 8, 2 attacks"
output 2d6+8d6+10 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 2d6+2d6+10+16 named "Frostbite"

\Level 8, 3 assumed attacks\
output 0 named "Level 8, 3 attacks"
output 3d6+8d6+15 named "Shocking Grasp"
output 3d6+3d6+15+24 named "Frostbite"

\Code for AnyDice online calculator.\





Well, you actually need to calculate DPR based on the expected AC of monsters of that level, rather than assume a number of attacks. Somebody actually did that earlier in the thread :smallamused: The summary of that research was that, as soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp.
I will, if I get around to it, consider updating this little nibble of code to include hit chances based on D20 rolls VS a settable variable for AC. That sounds like work though... But if I do it will make the figures a much more realistic expectation VS encounters.


Last note on Frostbite however, is that with only 7 charisma, I do not have a ton of potential for intimidate at a -2, which limits the feasibility of using Enforcer. But despite that, it's still a very valid option for additional or alternate damage.




If you have access to third-party material (specifically DSP), you might consider the Deadly Agility feat instead of Dervish Dance--it's dex to damage on any finessable weapon with no restrictions, and after the recent errata only has Weapon Finesse as a prerequisite.

If I were not already playing as a Bladebound, this would be something very much worth considering. I will remember this for future potential builds.

However... The question still is, and probably got lost in my post, but is at which levels do I start choosing feats/Hex/Arcana from the shortlist I have now expanded? I know I want many of these, just choosing when to gain them is something I am struggling with, as I feel picking some up too late may dull their potential, while others such as Intensified, are only useful after a certain level.

[Kurald Galain]

There is one thing I need to ask however, about Frostbite. I know that some of these touch spells allows you to continue to hold the charge if you miss I believe...
This specifically applies to all touch spells (but not ranged touch spells), including Frostbite.

Yes, a second touch spell does override the first. However, on round one you can cast Frostbite, make the attack for that spell; then full attack. Then on round two you make a full attack first and then cast another spell. There's a reason why it has top ratings, after all :smallcool:



Accurate Strike: Because hitting things is good
Flamboyant Arcana: countering AoO's is good! But it's low on my list.
Hasted Assault: Haste is excellent. Always.
Misfortune: Very powerful debuff
Spell Shield: Potentially avoiding a powerful attack can save your life
Close Range Arcana: Enable many more spells to be used with Spell Strike/Combat

Was this your shortlist?

Flamboyant is better than Spell Shield (and the two of them overlap somewhat). Both are better than Misfortune, which in turn is better than Close Range (there aren't actually many more spells that can be used with it). Acc.Strike and Hasted both require level 9, and Hasted Assault is better than the former. That should give you an idea of picking order.

[ChaosShadow00x]

This specifically applies to all touch spells (but not ranged touch spells), including Frostbite.

Yes, a second touch spell does override the first. However, on round one you can cast Frostbite, make the attack for that spell; then full attack. Then on round two you make a full attack first and then cast another spell. There's a reason why it has top ratings, after all :smallcool:


Omg, this is amazing. Knowing this had unfurled even more options in combat. I'm assuming that non spellstrike spells can still be used in spell combat with out overriding the Frostbite? Such as Shield, Vanish, Truestrike, ect?






Was this your shortlist?

Flamboyant is better than Spell Shield (and the two of them overlap somewhat). Both are better than Misfortune, which in turn is better than Close Range (there aren't actually many more spells that can be used with it). Acc.Strike and Hasted both require level 9, and Hasted Assault is better than the former. That should give you an idea of picking order.

Yes! And Yes it does! Thank you very much.

It's worth noting though that I do intend to take Lunge at level 9, so it's a toss up between hitting more (hasted assault) and hitting more frequently (Acc.Strike).

Being that the effects of Hasted Assault can be gained in other ways, and I should be rich enough to hopefully buy boots of speed so I'm assuming the ability to land strikes as touch attacks makes Acc. Strike the better choice.

EDIT: While I can now confidently fill out my first 10 levels of feats and cool perks, the question would remain that if later, at higher levels, if there are other feats/arcana/hex I have not yet considered that are better than the ones I am currently looking at. I'm dropping Misfortune for now, but Slumber and Ice Tomb are on the list now.

[Ellrin]

Well, you actually need to calculate DPR based on the expected AC of monsters of that level, rather than assume a number of attacks. Somebody actually did that earlier in the thread :smallamused: The summary of that research was that, as soon as Haste becomes a regular feature in your combats, Frostbite outdamages Shocking Grasp.

The expected AC of a monster is ultimately just one factor in determining your expected DPR in a round (attack bonuses and miss chance being the other major components), and it's really difficult to make any kind of assumptions about monster AC for a specific campaign (unless you're using a pre-made adventure path), even by level, since monsters of the same CR often have extremely variable AC. The average AC you can expect to run into can vary pretty wildly from campaign to campaign. Haste and spell combat is going to get you three attacks at your highest BAB (-2), so you've got decent odds compared to someone stuck with just iteratives with the same sort of attack bonuses, but if you only have, say, a 40% chance to hit your enemy's AC with full BAB -2 at level 9, even with haste you'll probably end up doing more DPR with intensified shocking grasp.

I agree frostbite is overall the superior damage option, since in most situations, at most levels, you'll probably end up with a higher DPR, it's a more efficient use of your spell slots (especially important for kensai!), and you can combine it with Rime Spell for some really nice debuffing; but there are certainly going to be campaigns where intensified shocking grasp outperforms it in nova DPR at mid-levels. Construct- and undead-heavy campaigns are much worse playgrounds for frostbite than a jaunt on the elemental plane of fire, for instance.


Omg, this is amazing. Knowing this had unfurled even more options in combat. I'm assuming that non spellstrike spells can still be used in spell combat with out overriding the Frostbite? Such as Shield, Vanish, Truestrike, ect?

I'm afraid you can't cast any spells at all while holding a touch spell without losing the charge(/remaining charges), and since with frostbite you'll usually have about two to four rounds worth of attacks, you'll want to pre-buff as much as possible before the general melee gets going.


It's worth noting though that I do intend to take Lunge at level 9, so it's a toss up between hitting more (hasted assault) and hitting more frequently (Acc.Strike).

Being that the effects of Hasted Assault can be gained in other ways, and I should be rich enough to hopefully buy boots of speed so I'm assuming the ability to land strikes as touch attacks makes Acc. Strike the better choice.

Accurate Strike is sort of better the higher your level, since you'll be facing more and more high AC, low touch AC enemies as the CR of your enemies rises, but it's a decent choice even at 9th level. Hasted assault is a really nice arcana, since you basically always want haste, but it sort of gets worse as your level increases, assuming you have another spellcaster in the party who'll be casting it on everyone anyway, since as your characters gain more spell slots, you can generally rely on either you or him to be casting it in the first round of combat (or as a pre-combat buff) in pretty nearly every combat, anyway. It's great for when you don't have haste prepared and you get ambushed, but boots of speed are nearly equally great for the same thing.


I'm actually expecting my party to be well below WBL, as we do not have access to buy magical items for this first stretch of our campaign. Every DnD campaign I've actually been in, in fact, has been horribly below WBL. Sometimes by as much as 1/6th. ATM, I was allowed to build my Magus at level 3 with 2/3rds WBL. This makes the Black Blade's value go up dramatically just for being more reliable.

Ah, geez. I've only ever been in really low WBL campaigns, too. It's really rough on these theoretical builds, isn't it?

It sounds like bladebound will absolutely push you ahead of the curve, then, especially if your DM likes to target equipment. If you have access to third party arcana, you might even want to consider Warding (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/magus-arcana/super-genius-games-magus-arcana/warding-su)--it'll let you enhance your armor through your arcane pool (though the special ability selection isn't great), letting you spend your cash on enchantments instead of increasing the enhancement bonus.


I did not know about these other two Hexes! Though the background traits dont fit my character (build-wise, yes, background-wise, no. We have to justify this in our games), I will certainly add these hexes to my short list.

Well there is one other possibility for Int to Intimidate, though I don't know if it'll fit your character any better; Clever Wordplay lets you replace Cha with Int on any one Cha-based skill.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Hmm. I picked up Evil Eye on my 6th level hexcrafter when I leveled up last session (staying away from swift action stuff because I took the Path of War Martial Training feats). I haven't been able to fully combo the two abilities, but the level 5 feat to get a stance (which debuffs nearby enemy's saves) has been worth it. Should I have picked up something else? I picked Evil Eye for its versatility. Is Misfortune better?

[Kurald Galain]

I picked Evil Eye for its versatility. Is Misfortune better?

Yes, since the Magus doesn't have actions to spare on Cackle (and therefore EE's main appeal, i.e. that it works even on a successful save, doesn't really help you).

Also, if you're not a Bladebound, look into getting a Conductive weapon.

[ChaosShadow00x]

You guys are cool and helpful =P


The expected AC of a monster is ultimately just one factor in determining your expected DPR in a round (attack bonuses and miss chance being the other major components), and it's really difficult to make any kind of assumptions about monster AC for a specific campaign (unless you're using a pre-made adventure path), even by level, since monsters of the same CR often have extremely variable AC. The average AC you can expect to run into can vary pretty wildly from campaign to campaign. Haste and spell combat is going to get you three attacks at your highest BAB (-2), so you've got decent odds compared to someone stuck with just iteratives with the same sort of attack bonuses, but if you only have, say, a 40% chance to hit your enemy's AC with full BAB -2 at level 9, even with haste you'll probably end up doing more DPR with intensified shocking grasp.

I agree frostbite is overall the superior damage option, since in most situations, at most levels, you'll probably end up with a higher DPR, it's a more efficient use of your spell slots (especially important for kensai!), and you can combine it with Rime Spell for some really nice debuffing; but there are certainly going to be campaigns where intensified shocking grasp outperforms it in nova DPR at mid-levels. Construct- and undead-heavy campaigns are much worse playgrounds for frostbite than a jaunt on the elemental plane of fire, for instance.



It's these reasons I still intend to stick with Magical Lineage:Shocking Grasp. I will be able to intelligently choose which of these two spells that will benefit the days worth of encounters, granted that I have any foreknowledge to plan upon.

Still, did some simulated results with AnyDice, and discovered the incredible burst potential from a lvl 10 hasted Magus using the Frostbite/Shocking Grasp 1-2 combo, averaging 197 damage over the two rounds.



output 8d6+40+10d6+7d6+70 named "2 round damage potential"

\Hasted: 4 attacks per round, 1d6+5 each\
\1 BAB attack, +1 @ BAB from haste, +1 @ BAB from Spellstrike, +1 iterative\
\Frostbite @ lvl 10 deals 1d6+10 per attack\
\Shocking Grasp @ lvl 10 deals 10d6\
\Assumed Attack Damage @ +5\


output 4d6+20+4d6+40 named "4x Frostbite"
output 4d6+20+3d6+30+10d6 named "3x Frostbite w/Shocking Grasp"

\Code for AnyDice online dice calculator\

The only other build I can think of that can hit harder is my Catfolk Rogue with sharp+viscous claws and fully feated Deadly Sneak, with full-attack sneak attack. Then again, her thing is kill her target with the first Salvo... Or die. Decoy ring helps a ton for survivability, but it's not infallible.



I'm afraid you can't cast any spells at all while holding a touch spell without losing the charge(/remaining charges), and since with frostbite you'll usually have about two to four rounds worth of attacks, you'll want to pre-buff as much as possible before the general melee gets going.

This makes me sad =(
But it is still acceptable. At least I can swap when the spell is cast to after my full attack.



Accurate Strike is sort of better the higher your level, since you'll be facing more and more high AC, low touch AC enemies as the CR of your enemies rises, but it's a decent choice even at 9th level. Hasted assault is a really nice arcana, since you basically always want haste, but it sort of gets worse as your level increases, assuming you have another spellcaster in the party who'll be casting it on everyone anyway, since as your characters gain more spell slots, you can generally rely on either you or him to be casting it in the first round of combat (or as a pre-combat buff) in pretty nearly every combat, anyway. It's great for when you don't have haste prepared and you get ambushed, but boots of speed are nearly equally great for the same thing.

I'll feel it out then as the campaign progresses. Boots of haste seem the better, long term option as they're not too expensive, but no, we dont have another arcane caster. [/quote]



Ah, geez. I've only ever been in really low WBL campaigns, too. It's really rough on these theoretical builds, isn't it?

It sounds like bladebound will absolutely push you ahead of the curve, then, especially if your DM likes to target equipment. If you have access to third party arcana, you might even want to consider (warding)--it'll let you enhance your armor through your arcane pool (though the special ability selection isn't great), letting you spend your cash on enchantments instead of increasing the enhancement bonus.

Ehh... Sorta. Being so used to it, I generally assume that, whatever my character level, that they'll have either no, or extremely limited magical gear. So when theory crafting I lean heavily towards making the build as solid and self sufficient as possible, and never relies on specific magical items unless I know I can start with it.

As for warding... This, very much, sounds like something I should pick up. Buffing my armor just seems excellent. Not only that, it is VERY much in line with my character. (She's a researcher/artifact hunter, obsessed (as her Black Blade is) with finding and acquiring arcane knowledge and magical artifacts.)



Well there is one other possibility for Int to Intimidate, though I don't know if it'll fit your character any better; Clever Wordplay lets you replace Cha with Int on any one Cha-based skill.

Hmm... I like this, and will certainly have to consider it. Unfortunately, this likely would not come online until much later as for the first 10 levels I will be building the core of this build up, focusing first on expanding the number of spells I can use/prepare at any given moment.

With the help of you guys, my first 10 levels are built out:
1: Weapon Finesse
3: Dancing Dervish
5: Wand Wielder
B5: Spell Scars
A6: Flamboyant Arcana
7: Intensified
9: Lunge
A9: Acc. Strike

As I stated initially, this build is a jack of trades, so versatility is #1 (Hence my drive to have as many spells at the ready as possible). Not only is she the groups caster, but is also needs to support as a frontliner... So I dont mind not perfecting one aspect or another.

To turn Frostbite (or any other cold spell) into a vicious debuffing monster, I would need to invest at least 3 more feats. Metamagic Rime, Additional Traits, and Enforcer.

Lvl 11, I could take both Enforcer and Additional Traits, then at 12, I could actually make extremely good utility of Versatile Combatant. Even if my +3 just never improved, I would still get 3 rounds of any feat of my choosing.

Thoughts? (This would fill out the next 3 levels)

EDIT:
I guess I could sacrifice my reactionary trait by retraining it, but I do very much like my Initiative. But this combo would be fully online by lvl 11.

EDIT2: Thinking on it though, it may not really fit my character (were expected to actually RP who we make). Though she is Chaotic Good, she really isnt about bullying others to get what she wants. I would have to ask if this type of setup could merely be a force of character, a scary looking Tiefling intimidating them by proxy, but I dont think it will fly.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Yes, since the Magus doesn't have actions to spare on Cackle (and therefore EE's main appeal, i.e. that it works even on a successful save, doesn't really help you).

Also, if you're not a Bladebound, look into getting a Conductive weapon.

I'll see if I can retcon it. I haven't used it yet besides preemptively hexing allies to make them immune for if my character was dominated (long story), so it shouldnt be a problem. Why would I get conductive, to conduct the hexes through?

[Ellrin]

Hmm. I picked up Evil Eye on my 6th level hexcrafter when I leveled up last session (staying away from swift action stuff because I took the Path of War Martial Training feats). I haven't been able to fully combo the two abilities, but the level 5 feat to get a stance (which debuffs nearby enemy's saves) has been worth it. Should I have picked up something else? I picked Evil Eye for its versatility. Is Misfortune better?


Yes, since the Magus doesn't have actions to spare on Cackle (and therefore EE's main appeal, i.e. that it works even on a successful save, doesn't really help you).

Also, if you're not a Bladebound, look into getting a Conductive weapon.

The one thing I like about Evil Eye on a magus more than Misfortune is that you can spam it on the same enemy—if misfortune fails, that's it, you have to move on.

That said, a magus should really have better things to do than spamming standard action debuffs on a single enemy, so I get why that's not too much of a factor.

[Kurald Galain]

Why would I get conductive, to conduct the hexes through?

Precisely.

[ChaosShadow00x]

Hey, I was perusing through my spells. Last night we got into some combat and I discovered I really, really like tripping things. This made me turn and look a little more into Blade Lash... Of which I now have a question about.

It's a touch spell... Does that mean I get to spellstrike it? And would it do damage? Or would the spellstrike merely be the trip attack?

Basically, I'm wondering if it turns my weapon into a 20ft ranged attack for a round. If so, Blade Lash is pretty awesome.

[Kurald Galain]

Blade Lash... Of which I now have a question about.

It's a touch spell... Does that mean I get to spellstrike it? And would it do damage? Or would the spellstrike merely be the trip attack?
Well here's the thing, spellstrike replaces "the free melee touch attack normally allowed to deliver the spell", and Blade Lash doesn't have one of those, so that wouldn't work.

On the other hand, if you deliver another touch spell (e.g. Shocking Grasp), then you could deliver that through a trip maneuver, and if the trip hits then you'll deal shocking damage too. If not, you'll hold the charge. You just need another way to get reach.

[TiaC]

So I just found a very nice combo for magi.

Either dip a level of Wizard or VMC into Wizard, and pick the void school (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/wizard/arcane-schools/paizo-arcane-schools/elemental-arcane-schools/void-elemental-school/). Now, take School Strike (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/school-strike-combat/). If you want to use a weapon other than unarmed strikes, you will also need Ascetic Style (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/ascetic-style-combat-style) and Combat Stamina (http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=School%20Strike).

The point of all this is that your first hit every round now applies a penalty equal to half of your caster level to your target's saves and AC for that round. Now all those debuffs that had DCs too low to care about become much more appealing and your iterative attacks become much more likely to hit. In addition, the penalty improves things for your team as well.

[zook1shoe]

Have you seen the Armbands of the Golden Serpent (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Armband%20of%2 0the%20Golden%20Serpent)? It allows your touch spells (melee and ranged) not provoke when cast in melee combat. Ranged still trigger if you make the attack with them.

[Kurald Galain]

The point of all this is that your first hit every round now applies a penalty equal to half of your caster level to your target's saves and AC for that round. Now all those debuffs that had DCs too low to care about become much more appealing and your iterative attacks become much more likely to hit. In addition, the penalty improves things for your team as well.
Well, you'd have to VMC wizard, otherwise the penalty is not going to be worth it. It works, but given the sheer feat cost it's probably easier to use the frostbite + rime + enforcer stack combo.


Have you seen the Armbands of the Golden Serpent (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Armband%20of%2 0the%20Golden%20Serpent)? It allows your touch spells (melee and ranged) not provoke when cast in melee combat. Ranged still trigger if you make the attack with them.
That's a nice item; however by the time you can afford that, your concentration check should be high enough that you can cast defensively with no problem.

[Ellrin]

Well, you'd have to VMC wizard, otherwise the penalty is not going to be worth it. It works, but given the sheer feat cost it's probably easier to use the frostbite + rime + enforcer stack combo.


That's a nice item; however by the time you can afford that, your concentration check should be high enough that you can cast defensively with no problem.

I've tried going through the math on concentration checks a few times and it seems like it doesn't pan out very reliably, even at higher levels. What am I missing?

[Kurald Galain]

I've tried going through the math on concentration checks a few times and it seems like it doesn't pan out very reliably, even at higher levels. What am I missing?

What you're missing is that you do it with your lower-level spells. For instance, an 8th level Magus has about an 85% chance of casting a 1st level spell defensively. You use your third-level spells either when you're not threatened, or when you have Mirror Image up. If all else fails, def-cast a cantrip for a 95% chance at a free spellstrike attack.

[TiaC]

Well, you'd have to VMC wizard, otherwise the penalty is not going to be worth it. It works, but given the sheer feat cost it's probably easier to use the frostbite + rime + enforcer stack combo.

You don't actually need to VMC, because Reveal Weakness scales off caster level, not class level.

[Kurald Galain]

You don't actually need to VMC, because Reveal Weakness scales off caster level, not class level.

That's not going to fly with most GMs, as it pretty obviously means caster level from your wizard class. A class guide should aim at commonsensical interpretations, not "yeah but technically..." loopholes.

[soulwhisper]

Hi buddy, could I translate your guide into Chinese and re-post it to a Chinese TRPG site?

PS. Link is not allowed for me. so google goddessfantasy, you will find it.
PS2. Also, i would like to build a TWF-style magus(mainly dex), any suggestions? Mindblade, Kensai, Eldritch Scion, which is better considering this?

[Ellrin]

Hi buddy, could I translate your guide into Chinese and re-post it to a Chinese TRPG site?

PS. Link is not allowed for me. so google goddessfantasy, you will find it.
PS2. Also, i would like to build a TWF-style magus(mainly dex), any suggestions? Mindblade, Kensai, Eldritch Scion, which is better considering this?



TWF Magus is probably one of the most difficult to build, since you need a fair number of feats to pull it off and juggling multiple weapons and keeping a hand free for spellcasting is pretty difficult. The easiest way to pull it off is probably with a double weapon, so you can free up a hand for a round of casting without actually dropping your weapon—a Staff Magus might not be bad for that. You could also use the Quick Draw feat, a quickdraw shield, and use TWF with shield bashing to have a free hand on the fly.

If 3PP is allowed, there are some feats that'll let you sheathe your weapon as a free action (Weapon Juggle (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/3rd-party-feats/kobold-press/combat-feats-3rd-party-kobold-press/weapon-juggle-combat/) being my favorite) or shield bash with a buckler (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/path-of-war/feats/buckler-bash-combat/), and there's a third party Magus archetype built around TWF (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/magus/archetypes/ascension-games-llc-magus-archetypes/mystic-dervish/), as well, though you lose out on Spell Combat until level 8 as well as getting one less daily spell of each level, which is really rough at low levels, not to mention its version of spell combat only works while two-weapon fighting, so if there's a lot of disarming or sundering in the campaign, you could pretty easily get crippled.

[Serafina]

The easiest way would be to play a Kasatha (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/races/other-races/more-races/advanced-races-11-20-rp/kasatha-20-rp), who are multi-armed.
They're also a pretty powerful race (+2 AC, Perception- and Stealth-proficiency, all jumps count as running jumps, no ability score penalties), and perhaps more importantly they're aliens to Golarion. So they might not be allowed in your game.
But with having four arms, you could easily wield two weapons - or even more, though the benefit is low - and still use spell combat, and you could also wield metamagic rods with ease later on.

[Kurald Galain]

From the adventurer's armory 2, added Spring-loaded Scroll Case, Ring of Balanced Grip, Wildblood Concoction. The aquatic campaign guide has nothing particularly useful to the Magus.


Hi buddy, could I translate your guide into Chinese and re-post it to a Chinese TRPG site?
Yes, no problem. Please PM me a link (to the guide, not to the site the guide is on somewhere), I think you can PM links.


PS2. Also, i would like to build a TWF-style magus(mainly dex), any suggestions? Mindblade, Kensai, Eldritch Scion, which is better considering this?
The first question is "why". TWF gives you an extra attack at a -2 penalty, whereas Spell Combat with any touch spell already does that for you. Attacking with a weapon, the same weapon again, and a spell is simply better than attacking with a weapon and then with another weapon.

Mindblade is your best bet, assuming your GM lets you use both of its weapons in spell combat (the wording is not clear on whether this is allowed). Alternatively, use the various polymorph spells on your list to turn into something with extra attacks and/or extra limbs.

[Raxxius]

On selectable weapons for crit fishers.

Another weapon not currently on the list is the wakizashi with path of war feats.

A d6 18/20 light weapon which is both slashing and Piercing as damage type, it needs an exotic weapon proficiency, it's not great but it's not bad for Tengu and Half-elves as a light weapon, it can be finessed with no shenanigans. It also has Deadly as a trait but I don't find that useful in general.

What pushes it up for low level effectiveness is Daisho Expertise. Here you can get weapon finesse and a damage die bump at level, giving you a 1d8 18/20 light weapon. Daisho Expertise works as finesse so you can get deadly agility/slashing grace for dex to damage.

Overall providing you have the exotic weapon proficiency for free it's the same feat requirements but a statistically superior weapon to the rapier, has a few advantages over the scimitar (damage type choice, light means it can be used when grappled and works with piranha strike) but can't gain the two handed bonuses.

So I think it's worth a spot in the weapon choices, all be it as a situational one depending on allowed feats.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

That Daisho Expertise feat also works with katanas. I don't see why you would use the knife when you can use the sword instead.

[Raxxius]

That Daisho Expertise feat also works with katanas. I don't see why you would use the knife when you can use the sword instead.

Wakizashi: Light, slashing/piercing

Katana: Slashing only, on average 1 extra damage, can be two handed for extra damage/powerattack if you have strength


It's not as straightforward as it seems, while slashing/piercing isn't great, it can be useful. And light allows for piranha strike meaning you don't need 13 strength for powerattack.

Also can be used to hit your opponent if you're grappled. Now this might just be DMs but I've been grappled a lot as a dex based character.

Like I say, it's not the standout choice but the Katana doesn't have to be the exclusive exotic choice.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

You're forgetting the other part of Daisho Expertise, the damage dice bump. 1d6>1d8 for medium wakizashis, and 1d8>2d6 for medium katanas. Though I was not accounting for pirahna strike. But Deadly Strike should be on the table if you're using this feat at all, and two-handing a one-handed dex weapon has been made possible with the new errata.

[Raxxius]

You're forgetting the other part of Daisho Expertise, the damage dice bump. 1d6>1d8 for medium wakizashis, and 1d8>2d6 for medium katanas. Though I was not accounting for pirahna strike. But Deadly Strike should be on the table if you're using this feat at all, and two-handing a one-handed dex weapon has been made possible with the new errata.

1D10 for katana surely?

[Ellrin]

1D10 for katana surely?

Judging by the language used, I would agree with that being RAW here.


Increase the damage die of katanas and wakizashi you wield by one die step.

If the damage were going up as if you were increasing in size by one step, that would suggest 1d8 -> 2d6; but it specifically refers to increasing the damage die by one step. Since the relevant Paizo FAQ relating to increasing damage based on size differentiates between steps in increasing size and steps on the included damage dice chart, I would say that the RAW should suggest going up a single step on that chart, not in effective size.

[g51503john]

Hi~ I have a optimized question about the arcane spell failure chance(SFC) to ask. I currently play a bladebound/kensai in a AP campaign, there is any way to let me wear chain shirt(or any better armor) with 5% or 0% SFC?

The celestial armor be made of mithral which only have 5% SFC, but my DM doesn't allow that specific magic armor can be made of special material. The arcane armor training feat cost a swift action, but magus really needs a swift action, besides kensai doesn't have the light armor proficiency.

I don't consider still metamagic rod, because it only have 3 times, but in my experience, in the battle of the day to cast the spell with somatic component is far more than three times.

BTW, my DM doesn't allow 3pp resource neither. So.... this question may be too strict or ask too much, sorry.

[khadgar567]

Hi~ I have a optimized question about the arcane spell failure chance(SFC) to ask. I currently play a bladebound/kensai in a AP campaign, there is any way to let me wear chain shirt(or any better armor) with 5% or 0% SFC?

The celestial armor be made of mithral which only have 5% SFC, but my DM doesn't allow that specific magic armor can be made of special material. The arcane armor training feat cost a swift action, but magus really needs a swift action, besides kensai doesn't have the light armor proficiency.

I don't consider still metamagic rod, because it only have 3 times, but in my experience, in the battle of the day to cast the spell with somatic component is far more than three times.

BTW, my DM doesn't allow 3pp resource either. So.... this question may be too strict or ask too much, sorry.
dex or str and whats your race since adventure armory might have what you want which is drow silk bodysuit.

[Kurald Galain]

Hi~ I have a optimized question about the arcane spell failure chance(SFC) to ask. I currently play a bladebound/kensai in a AP campaign, there is any way to let me wear chain shirt(or any better armor) with 5% or 0% SFC?
The straightforward answer is the Mage Armor spell, either from a wand and UMD, or from the Spell Blending arcana.

[Cieyrin]

Hi~ I have a optimized question about the arcane spell failure chance(SFC) to ask. I currently play a bladebound/kensai in a AP campaign, there is any way to let me wear chain shirt(or any better armor) with 5% or 0% SFC?

The celestial armor be made of mithral which only have 5% SFC, but my DM doesn't allow that specific magic armor can be made of special material. The arcane armor training feat cost a swift action, but magus really needs a swift action, besides kensai doesn't have the light armor proficiency.

I don't consider still metamagic rod, because it only have 3 times, but in my experience, in the battle of the day to cast the spell with somatic component is far more than three times.

BTW, my DM doesn't allow 3pp resource either. So.... this question may be too strict or ask too much, sorry.

My go-to for Kensai is Silken Ceremonial Armor. Given the lack of Light Armor Proficiency, ACP also matters and Silken Ceremonial has both no ACP and no ASF. Being a Kensai also means having good Dex and Int for AC and Max Dex is an important factor, which Silken Ceremonial also fulfills by having no Max Dex.

[g51503john]

My magus is dex build and race is tiefling, I currently use mage armor potion, I mentioned chain shirt before because it can be enhance further, either enhancement bonus or special ability(such as Spell Storing).

[nerious]

What about the spell Sense Vitals from wizard?It gives you 1/3cl sneak attack up to 5d6.
With the feat Sap Adept and Sap Master,it can make tons of damage and never worry about energy resistance.

[Kurald Galain]

What about the spell Sense Vitals from wizard?
Well, you can't use temporary spell effects as the prereq for feats, so using Frostbite is a better deal. Cold resistance is not all that common (and if it is, use a different spell; that's what knowledge skills are for).

[nerious]

Well, you can't use temporary spell effects as the prereq for feats, so using Frostbite is a better deal. Cold resistance is not all that common (and if it is, use a different spell; that's what knowledge skills are for).
Oh,I forgot it.
But there are some monsters with kinds of energy resistance,which is tough for magus.SR is another trouble。
And Sense Vitals itself is not a bad deal. At lv15,it gives you 5d6 SA,17.5 on average,while Frostbite gives 18.5.
Besides,I think it's fair to dip rouge or something and pick up Sap Adept for some damage bounce.

[Ellrin]

Oh,I forgot it.
But there are some monsters with kinds of energy resistance,which is tough for magus.SR is another trouble。
And Sense Vitals itself is not a bad deal. At lv15,it gives you 5d6 SA,17.5 on average,while Frostbite gives 18.5.
Besides,I think it's fair to dip rouge or something and pick up Sap Adept for some damage bounce.

There's a couple rather significant advantages to frostbite at level 15 beyond that average +1 damage, assuming you're facing enemies without cold resistance.

First, the minimum possible damage frostbite will do at level 15 is 16 damage; compare that to the ~30% chance that a 5d6 sneak attack has of doing 15 or less damage, and the merely ~15% chance that sneak attack has of doing more damage than frostbite's maximum of 21.

Second, sneak attacks are much harder to reliably set up. You can sink more resources (WBL, feats, daily spells, etc.) into making them easier, but at some point you reach a state of diminishing returns, and even then it's just not as reliable as frostbite, which requires precisely zero investment beyond using the spell to perform reliably in every situation that doesn't involve a cold-resistant/immune enemy.

I could see a build being channeled into a sneak attack, using a vivisectionist dip or VMC rogue to qualify for SA-dependent feats, but I don't think it'd really compare all too favorably to a reasonably optimized DPR build that doesn't give up resources to attach SA to a magus chassis.

[Ellrin]

My magus is dex build and race is tiefling, I currently use mage armor potion, I mentioned chain shirt before because it can be enhance further, either enhancement bonus or special ability(such as Spell Storing).

As a Dex magus, you're really not going to be getting that much out of chain shirt that you can't get out of lighter armor. Assuming you're starting with 16 Dex at character creation, by level 8 you should probably have a Dex of at least 22 (after level up and a +4 belt), and it's only going up from there. That 22+ Dex is already a +6 mod, which is the highest you can enjoy the benefits of from a mithral chain shirt. As soon as you get to +7, you're getting the same AC out of studded leather, which can be made out of darkleaf cloth for a mere 5% ASF.

Sadly, darkleaf cloth can't reduce spell failure below 5%, so any armors lighter than studded leather that still have even a 5% ASF are all a bit pointless for you.

Beyond that, you can get actual 0% ASF with an unlimited Dex bonus to AC from silken ceremonial armor or a haramaki (both from the Eastern armors section), albeit with only a +1 armor bonus to AC; but by the time that you've got a +9 or higher Dex mod, you'll probably be relying primarily on non-AC solutions for not being hit, meaning the armor is only really there to serve as a platform for enchantments.

[nerious]

There's a couple rather significant advantages to frostbite at level 15 beyond that average +1 damage, assuming you're facing enemies without cold resistance.

Yep,I do agree with you that the frostbite is much better.My point is Sense Vitals can do a good job when frostbite suffers SR or energy residence. It's planB,cheap but not bad.

[longanxy]

Hawk is also a very solid choice for familiar.

With evolve familiar : perception feat and a pair of eagle eyes, you familiar gain a percepetion bonus equal to your level + 26, that said, for exemple, +31 at level 5.

If it is a valet and you have lookout feat, you basically gain the ability to always act in surprise round, and can almost auto-spot every nearby invisible ennemies then true strike or glitterdust them.



Blink is not a bad choice at higher level. Yes it's 20% weaker than displacement on the offense side, but many monsters can ignore illusionary defense such as mirror image and displacement, and magi have poor reflex save so -50% to area damage is also helpful against many types of enemies, those two qualities grant you a big plus chance to survive.

[Kurald Galain]

Added aquatic elf race; several familiar feats, eldritch heritage, expanded arcana, and flamefire rage feats; a note on the hawk familiar; holy ice weapon and slipstream spells; nimble armor, vigil cap, and smoldering blood items. This covers the Elemental Master's Handbook and Blood of the Sea.


Like I say, it's not the standout choice but the Katana doesn't have to be the exclusive exotic choice.
The aim is not to list every single weapon, but rather to give a good selection. And you can't assume that path of war feats are allowed (although I have a separate section for that).


Hawk is also a very solid choice for familiar.

With evolve familiar : perception feat and a pair of eagle eyes, you familiar gain a percepetion bonus equal to your level + 26, that said, for exemple, +31 at level 5.
Unfortunately, not all of that stacks. In particular, the hawk's racial bonus does not stack with the evolution, and it cannot normally use eye-slot items. So that's level + 13 unless I'm missing something (+2 wis, +3 class skill, +8 racial). Still a decent option, though.


Blink is not a bad choice at higher level. Yes it's 20% weaker than displacement on the offense side, but many monsters can ignore illusionary defense such as mirror image and displacement, and magi have poor reflex save so -50% to area damage is also helpful against many types of enemies, those two qualities grant you a big plus chance to survive.
I'm not convinced that a 20% miss chance on all your own attacks is worth that. If you're dealing with monsters that see through illusions, you could also use Stoneskin or Parry instead. If you're dealing with monsters that do area damage, you could also use Ward Shield or Resist Energy.

[HammerBrother]

So what is the purpose of Liquid Ice?

[Kurald Galain]

So what is the purpose of Liquid Ice?

Liquid Ice - If you're going to use Ray of Frost for spell combat, this will add +1 to your damage every time. It gives a much bigger boost to the Cone of Cold spell.

[longanxy]

I'm not convinced that a 20% miss chance on all your own attacks is worth that. If you're dealing with monsters that see through illusions, you could also use Stoneskin or Parry instead. If you're dealing with monsters that do area damage, you could also use Ward Shield or Resist Energy.

Stoneskin cost gold and last only againt a few attacks, barely equal to 2 shots of optimezed lay on hands of a paladin of the same level.

Parry cost action and will not endure, neither the spell it self nor your spell slot.

Ward Shield need a shield and neither SR nor +5 ref is as predictable as 50% off is.

Resist Energy cost a feat.

Blink is the only spell which cost nothing but it self, and also a bundle of defense buffs, which fonctions well against almost all kinds of attacks, with just 1 action. It's a spell that you can cast even before you know every offensive abilities of the monster.

20% is just something that looks scary. Reducing your DPR from 100 to 80 and improve the number of rounds in which you can survive from 4 to 8 is just a good deal.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

I don't really have an opinion either way, but I will say that at least you're still gonna get Spellstrike off, due to the way holding the charge works.

[longanxy]

Unfortunately, not all of that stacks. In particular, the hawk's racial bonus does not stack with the evolution, and it cannot normally use eye-slot items. So that's level + 13 unless I'm missing something (+2 wis, +3 class skill, +8 racial). Still a decent option, though.


Yes, I've mistaken that.

By the way, parrots have a nature Skill Focus Perception, granting level +16 perception with involved familiar.

Actually, I'm playing multiple magi using Parrot as familiar, including my PFS heavy armor magus (with battle host dip, which I've explained), because it's the only familiar that grant Linguistics +3, and Orator is a good feat for magi if you want be a party face or somekind (when you ARE a talker, bluffer and intimidator, and you NEED to spend 2 traits to gain diplomacy class skill + int modifiable).

[Yanisa]

By the way, parrots have a nature Skill Focus Perception, granting level +16 perception with involved familiar.

Not sure where you are coming from, but Parrots (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/WizardFamiliars.aspx) use the same stats as Ravens (I thought Hawks which is why I started this post...) and Ravens (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Raven) don't have Skill Focus but Weapon Finesse. :smallconfused:

Pinguins (http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Penguin) are one of the rare familiars with a Skill Focus Perception and places them 2 points above Hawks, Ravens and Parrots (+15 Penguin vs +13) when you count in evolved familiar. Sadly Penguins have a lot of... troubles... outside arctic aquatic campaigns and their stats don't make for a great flanking buddy either to make use of their huge familiar size (small size actually). No love for penguins.

Parrots are still a good choice for a perception buddy (+13 evolved, or same bonus as Hawk) because they can vocalize warnings, an interesting benefit over Hawks. Personally I would pick Raven over Parrot because Ravens are less conspicuous but before that I would pick Hawk over either because it saves me a feat. To each their own, but all valid options.

[Second Arrow]

Yes, I've mistaken that.

By the way, parrots have a nature Skill Focus Perception, granting level +16 perception with involved familiar.

Actually, I'm playing multiple magi using Parrot as familiar, including my PFS heavy armor magus (with battle host dip, which I've explained), because it's the only familiar that grant Linguistics +3, and Orator is a good feat for magi if you want be a party face or somekind (when you ARE a talker, bluffer and intimidator, and you NEED to spend 2 traits to gain diplomacy class skill + int modifiable).

Re: Hawk & Perception: I thought racial bonuses stacked? "With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works." (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Bonus)

Sure, the skilled evolution says that it doesn't stack, but that seems to be wording aiming at preventing you from selecting it for the same skill again and again.

[Kurald Galain]

Re: Hawk & Perception: I thought racial bonuses stacked? "With the exception of dodge bonuses, most circumstance bonuses, and racial bonuses, only the better bonus of a given type works." (https://sites.google.com/site/pathfinderogc/basics-ability-scores/glossary#TOC-Bonus)

I stand corrected. Very well, +21 it is for Mr. Hawk.

[longanxy]

Great, with +21 for hawk, Lookout + Valet combot becomes usable.

Edit: Hawk DO HAVE eyes slot: in animal archive, it is said that avian have Armor, belt, chest, eyes, headband, neck, ring, wrist slots.

Even in PFS, you can replace the familiar standard feat by extra slot feat appeared in that book.

Still +26 !

[upho]

Just passing through and happened to read the following two old posts:


1D10 for katana surely?


Judging by the language used, I would agree with that being RAW here.
Increase the damage die of katanas and wakizashi you wield by one die step.If the damage were going up as if you were increasing in size by one step, that would suggest 1d8 -> 2d6; but it specifically refers to increasing the damage die by one step. Since the relevant Paizo FAQ relating to increasing damage based on size differentiates between steps in increasing size and steps on the included damage dice chart, I would say that the RAW should suggest going up a single step on that chart, not in effective size.I'm pretty darn certain "increase the damage die size by one step" and "increase the damage as if you were increasing in size by one category" have exactly the same mechanical outcome per RAW: the weapon's damage die increases as if the weapon was designed for a creature one size category larger.

Or IOW, in terms of the resulting actual damage die a weapon has and outside of stacking rules, there is absolutely zero difference between a "damage die size increase" and a "damage die increase due to a size increase". The only reason the FAQ might appear to be differentiating between the two is because of the rules for increasing the damage die for smaller than medium creatures/weapons or die sizes smaller than 1d8. Note also that "damage die size" does not necessarily correspond to the number of sides of the physical die used to roll damage, and that rolling a single "damage die" may very well mean rolling several physical dice.

In summary, unless otherwise explicitly specified, increasing a 1d8 damage die "by one step" always makes it a 2d6 damage die for a Medium or larger weapon. Regardless of whether the increasing option's text refers to actual size increases ("as if") or only to increasing the die by one step (like Daisho Expertise does).

The above can easily be verified by reading the FAQ entry directly below (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t5u) the one with the die size chart, which says (my emphasis):

"As per the rules on size changes, size changes do not stack, so if you have multiple size changing effects (for instance an effect that increases your size by one step and another that increases your size by two steps), only the largest applies. The same is true of effective size increases (which includes “deal damage as if they were one size category larger than they actually are,” “your damage die type increases by one step,” and similar language)."

I have no idea of whether increasing a Medium katana damage die from 1d8 to 2d6 was intended by the designer of Daisho Expertise, but it's certainly what the feat does as written. Personally, I don't think the 2d6 die size would be even remotely OP, considering the cost and that it doesn't stack with any other "virtual" damage die size increases (such as Lead Blades).

[Ellrin]

I'm pretty darn certain "increase the damage die size by one step" and "increase the damage as if you were increasing in size by one category" have exactly the same mechanical outcome per RAW: the weapon's damage die increases as if the weapon was designed for a creature one size category larger.

[emphasis mine]

Except it doesn't mention "size" anywhere in the description. It just says increase by a die step, and the FAQs make it pretty explicit that die steps and size increases are different things. I mean, you could hunt down the PoW writers and ask them what their intention was—it shouldn't be particularly difficult, DSP's writers seem relatively accessible—, but until then, read as written it looks to me like it's increasing damage by a single step, not as if there's a size increase. There seems to be no size-related language here.

Conversely, this means that it does stack with virtual or actual size increases.

[Kitsuneymg]

I'm pretty darn certain "increase the damage die size by one step" and "increase the damage as if you were increasing in size by one category" have exactly the same mechanical outcome per RAW: the weapon's damage die increases as if the weapon was designed for a creature one size category larger.


This is entirely incorrect. The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f) is pretty clear on how this works, and pretty clearly decouples size steps from dice steps.


Size Changes, Effective Size Changes, and Damage Dice Progression: I'm confused by how to increase and decrease manufactured and natural weapon damage dice when the weapon's size or effective size changes. There's a bunch of different charts, and I'm not sure which to use.
When the damage dealt by a creature’s weapons or natural attacks changes due to a change in its size (or the size of its weapon), use the following rules to determine the new damage.

• If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.
• If the size decreases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and decrease the damage by two steps. If the initial size is Medium or lower (or is treated as Medium or lower) or the initial damage is 1d8 or less, instead decrease the damage by one step.
• If the exact number of original dice is not found on this chart, apply the following before adjusting the damage dice. If the damage is a number of d6, find the next lowest number of d6 on the chart and use that number of d8 as the original damage value (for example, 10d6 would instead be treated as 8d8). If the damage is a number of d8, find the next highest number of d8 on the chart and use that number of d6 as the original damage value (for example, 5d8 would instead be treated as 6d6). Once you have the new damage value, adjust by the number of steps noted above.
• If the die type is not referenced on this chart, apply the following rules before adjusting the damage dice. 2d4 counts as 1d8 on the chart, 3d4 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d4. 1d12 counts as 2d6 on the chart, and so on for higher numbers of d12.
• Finally, 2d10 increases to 4d8 and decreases to 2d8, regardless of the initial size, and so on for higher numbers of d10.

Damage Dice Progression Chart
1
1d2
1d3
1d4
1d6
1d8
1d10
2d6
2d8
3d6
3d8
4d6
4d8
6d6
6d8
8d6
8d8
12d6
12d8
16d6


So yes, a Katana goes from 1d8 to 1d10 when it goes up one dice step.

[upho]

[emphasis mine]

Except it doesn't mention "size" anywhere in the description. It just says increase by a die step, and the FAQs make it pretty explicit that die steps and size increases are different things. I mean, you could hunt down the PoW writers and ask them what their intention was—it shouldn't be particularly difficult, DSP's writers seem relatively accessible—, but until then, read as written it looks to me like it's increasing damage by a single step, not as if there's a size increase. There seems to be no size-related language here.

Conversely, this means that it does stack with virtual or actual size increases.
This is entirely incorrect. The FAQ (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f) is pretty clear on how this works, and pretty clearly decouples size steps from dice steps.This has already been thoroughly discussed elsewhere more than a year ago. But in short, there is no need for the word "size". The only time the word "step" refers to one step in the table in the FAQ, is when mentioned by the FAQ entry itself, never in the actual rules text of related abilities/effects etc. In the case of such options, "one step" means exactly the same thing as "as if increased by one size category". The FAQ below the one with the table makes it obvious that for all intents and purposes related to damage die, the following language (and similar) are all "effective size increases" (and explicitly do not stack):

"increase the damage die by one step"
"increase the damage die size by one step"
"increase the damage die type by one step"
"increase the damage as if you were increasing in size by one category"

But again, there's no need for repeating this discussion. Instead, I suggest you google the unchained summoner eidolon Improved Damage evo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner-unchained/eidolons-unchained/), which uses exactly the same relevant language as Daisho Expertise:

"Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die by one step."

(If you don't feel like looking it up yourself, you'll have to trust me that at least all the more recent discussions on the subject come to the same conclusion, see for example here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s703?Improved-Damage-Improved-Natural-Attack-and) and here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2to5u?Eidelon-Improved-Damage-Improve-Natural).)

[cebadec]

Hi everybody! I've been lurking here for a while now and have finished this whole thread guide. I am traditionally a 3.5 sorc player and a friend of mine invited me to join a game he is starting up of Pathfinder. Pretty sure it is going to be a "home-brew" story. No module or anything. After looking through all the classes, I decided I wanted to give magus a shot. I like the flavor and what I've read about it. I have one question that is probably very basic, this guide is written as if it is already understood, but I sadly just can't seem to grasp it; shocking I know. (see what I did there?) The question I have centers around archetype and actually building the character. I can't seem to find the info on "how" to actually combine archetypes.

Maybe I just don't understand it. But one specific example I see a lot of and is mentioned several times throughout this thread is Bladebound and Hexcrafter. I'm still very new to these concepts and have no idea how it all works on a level by level breakdown. I would appreciate any help in explanations. Feel free to inbox me as well if needed. I am truly a beginner just looking to understand more of a new to me game.

[Florian]

@cebadec:

Think of an archetype as a template applied to a class, modifying some aspects of it. "Stacking" archetypes means finding two (or more) that modify different parts of the base class with no overlap happening. (Edit: The general rule is simply that overlap negates archetypes)

[HammerBrother]

On the striker Magus, you have the Bane Baldric when you have the ability to get bane blade would you swap that out for something else or keep it?

[cebadec]

@cebadec:

Think of an archetype as a template applied to a class, modifying some aspects of it. "Stacking" archetypes means finding two (or more) that modify different parts of the base class with no overlap happening. (Edit: The general rule is simply that overlap negates archetypes)

Okay. I mostly understand that. My question is I guess I don't understand the actual "building" of the character while using the archetypes and how they stack and so then how is it actually built? Like, I get how to build a sorcerer, druid, fighter, etc in 3.5. But it's when trying to apply these archetypes to it that I start to get lost. Like "when" do the archetypes come in. Are the first 2 levels magus then level 3 bladebound magus then level 4 hexcrafter magus? That's where I'm getting confused I think is in the actual construction of the character on the paper.

[Aldrakan]

Okay. I mostly understand that. My question is I guess I don't understand the actual "building" of the character while using the archetypes and how they stack and so then how is it actually built? Like, I get how to build a sorcerer, druid, fighter, etc in 3.5. But it's when trying to apply these archetypes to it that I start to get lost. Like "when" do the archetypes come in. Are the first 2 levels magus then level 3 bladebound magus then level 4 hexcrafter magus? That's where I'm getting confused I think is in the actual construction of the character on the paper.

My understanding is they apply when the archetype changes something. So yes, in your example the 2nd level magus has no archetypes, at 3rd level they're a bladebound magus, at 4th level they're also a hexcrafter. Assuming you're leveling up normally anytime before you reach that level you're just planning to take that archetype and could change your mind.
Of course many archetypes apply from 1st level.

[Powerdork]

Okay. I mostly understand that. My question is I guess I don't understand the actual "building" of the character while using the archetypes and how they stack and so then how is it actually built? Like, I get how to build a sorcerer, druid, fighter, etc in 3.5. But it's when trying to apply these archetypes to it that I start to get lost. Like "when" do the archetypes come in. Are the first 2 levels magus then level 3 bladebound magus then level 4 hexcrafter magus? That's where I'm getting confused I think is in the actual construction of the character on the paper.

You make decisions about when to take an archetype as soon as that archetype would make a difference. For a lot of archetypes, this is as you enter the class (because they start replacing things at level 1), but there are paladin archetypes that replace their 4th-level spellcasting and their 14th-level aura (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/paladin/archetypes/paizo-paladin-archetypes/warrior-of-the-holy-light/), for instance, so 3rd-level paladins who were undecided could choose to take the archetype as they level up.

[Florian]

Okay. I mostly understand that. My question is I guess I don't understand the actual "building" of the character while using the archetypes and how they stack and so then how is it actually built? Like, I get how to build a sorcerer, druid, fighter, etc in 3.5. But it's when trying to apply these archetypes to it that I start to get lost. Like "when" do the archetypes come in. Are the first 2 levels magus then level 3 bladebound magus then level 4 hexcrafter magus? That's where I'm getting confused I think is in the actual construction of the character on the paper.

Ah, ok. Basically you decide on using one or more archetypes the moment you take the first level in a class, even when the archetype doesn´t come into effect until later. In this case, you´d use the annotation of "Magus (Bladebound/Hexcrafter) 1" to note the base class, as well as the archetypes used.

[Powerdork]

Basically you decide on using one or more archetypes the moment you take the first level in a class, even when the archetype doesn´t come into effect until later. In this case, you´d use the annotation of "Magus (Bladebound/Hexcrafter) 1" to note the base class, as well as the archetypes used.

Per Retraining, in Ultimate Campaign:
https://i.gyazo.com/e9d7a19fd2d88039055d20af5d64bd41.png

Which only makes sense.

[cebadec]

Ah, ok. Basically you decide on using one or more archetypes the moment you take the first level in a class, even when the archetype doesn´t come into effect until later. In this case, you´d use the annotation of "Magus (Bladebound/Hexcrafter) 1" to note the base class, as well as the archetypes used.

So then, if I go the route of Bladebound/Hexcrafter, do I lose access to the magus spells and only get access to the hexes, or do I get access to the hexes in addition to the Magus Spells?

Also, thank you and everyone else so far for the help and explanations. It is helping to solidify the understandings I was having as well as clearing up the misconceptions.

[Kurald Galain]

On the striker Magus, you have the Bane Baldric when you have the ability to get bane blade would you swap that out for something else or keep it?
There are surprisingly few good chest-slot items in the game, so I'd probably keep it.

[Aldrakan]

So then, if I go the route of Bladebound/Hexcrafter, do I lose access to the magus spells and only get access to the hexes, or do I get access to the hexes in addition to the Magus Spells?

Also, thank you and everyone else so far for the help and explanations. It is helping to solidify the understandings I was having as well as clearing up the misconceptions.

You keep the spells. In fact you add extra spells (the [curse] spells) to your spell list. You lose spell recall, that's a separate class feature.

[HammerBrother]

There are surprisingly few good chest-slot items in the game, so I'd probably keep it.

Ok so would passing Bane blade Arcanna Hurt the build if not what would you replace it with if it would then nevermind

[Powerdork]

You keep the spells. In fact you add extra spells (the [curse] spells) to your spell list. You lose spell recall, that's a separate class feature.

Italics are probably not good for emphasis when discussing a game that stylizes magic (especially spells) with italics.

[Kitsuneymg]

This has already been thoroughly discussed elsewhere more than a year ago. But in short, there is no need for the word "size". The only time the word "step" refers to one step in the table in the FAQ, is when mentioned by the FAQ entry itself, never in the actual rules text of related abilities/effects etc. In the case of such options, "one step" means exactly the same thing as "as if increased by one size category". The FAQ below the one with the table makes it obvious that for all intents and purposes related to damage die, the following language (and similar) are all "effective size increases" (and explicitly do not stack):

"increase the damage die by one step"
"increase the damage die size by one step"
"increase the damage die type by one step"
"increase the damage as if you were increasing in size by one category"

But again, there's no need for repeating this discussion. Instead, I suggest you google the unchained summoner eidolon Improved Damage evo (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/summoner-unchained/eidolons-unchained/), which uses exactly the same relevant language as Daisho Expertise:

"Select one natural attack form and increase the damage die by one step."

(If you don't feel like looking it up yourself, you'll have to trust me that at least all the more recent discussions on the subject come to the same conclusion, see for example here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2s703?Improved-Damage-Improved-Natural-Attack-and) and here (http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2to5u?Eidelon-Improved-Damage-Improve-Natural).)

Except this isn't a Paizo produced product. Given that every other effect in PoW designed to increase your effective size explicitly mentions size increase (as if one size larger), it's not a size increase, but rather, exactly what it says: one dice step increase.

[upho]

Except this isn't a Paizo produced product. Given that every other effect in PoW designed to increase your effective size explicitly mentions size increase (as if one size larger), it's not a size increase, but rather, exactly what it says: one dice step increase.Short simple answer: Whether it's 3PP or not is irrelevant. If the Improved Damage evo increases the effective size of the damage die per RAW, then so does DE per RAW.

Long answer: If there is a precedent set by Paizo which uses a specific wording, whatever is true for that precedent is also true in the case of any other option/rules item made for the PF system which also use that same wording, including 3PP options. Note also that in this case, an actual precedent made by Paizo isn't even necessary, as their next FAQ entry also use the exact same wording as an example in of what constitutes an effective size increase.

Of course, all DSP content adheres to the rules of the system it was written for, meaning the RAW of at the very least the PF CRB and (Paizo's) related FAQ entries apply unless otherwise specifically mentioned in the DSP content in question. And while an exception could perhaps be made if the rule in question was changed/clarified by Paizo after DSP's content was released, in this case both relevant FAQ entries were published (and thoroughly discussed) in March 2015, months before DE was even released for play testing, and a year before PoW:E was released.

In conclusion, if the intent of DE was to increase the damage die to 1d10, then the feat would have to explicitly say so. Likewise, if this damage die change were intended to stack with that of effective size increases, the feat would also have to at the very least use a different wording. (Like say: "The base damage die of a katana you wield becomes 1d10 (if Medium size, 1d8 if Small). This change stacks with that of damage die size increases.")

As is, the RAW of DE is that the damage die becomes 2d6 and that this increase does not stack with any other effective size increases. And as is, the only way around this would be to house rule the feat.

RAI? You'd have to ask Elricaltovilla (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/member.php?67512-Elricaltovilla) who wrote the feat. (And if he says that the intent was 1d10 and he cannot see how the feat's RAW could be read in any other way, please be a nice guy and refer him to this post so that he may better understand the issue.)

[Kurald Galain]

While that's a fascinating discussion, it has very little to do with the Magus class. Perhaps you could take it to another thread? Thanks.

[Coventry]

Has the Star Cinder (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Star%20Cinder) from the Daughters of the Fury module come up as an item to include in the Gear and Magic items list?

At 50,000 gold and the use of the neck slot, the price is a bit steep ... but it still has value to the Magus even if someone else in the party happens be wearing it and triggers the suppression of immunity to electricity.

[Kurald Galain]

I was asked over PM to comment on third-party archetype the Spiderhawk. This is a Magus / rogue hybrid with spontaneous casting; it could be some literary allusion that I'm not familiar with. The archetype is a straight upgrade of the regular Magus, giving a sizeable damage boost and new arcana with no real downside.

However, the archetype suffers from poor editing. It appears the author intended to balance it with drawbacks, but these have little or no effect. In particular, restricting a Magus to "only" one martial weapon and "only" three pool enchantments is pretty meaningless, as normally you wouldn't use more anyway. The sentence that sneak attack doesn't work with "spell combat criticals" is poorly worded, and depending on interpretation is somewhere between "not really a drawback" and "completely irrelevant". You do lose spell recall, but pearls runestones of power can cover for that.

Out of the new arcana, evasion and swift-action teleports are real gems; the rest are not very good. Also, the knowledge pool ability is vastly boosted for this archetype. The best rogue talents are either tacking debuffs or self-buffs on top of your sneak attacks, or swapping them back for combat feats; most other rogue talents are pretty weak. Obviously you want the accomplished sneak attacker feat on this build.

So this gets an easy BLUE rating and is arguably unbalanced.


Has the Star Cinder (http://archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Star%20Cinder) from the Daughters of the Fury module come up as an item to include in the Gear and Magic items list?
Thanks for the tip, but I can't really recommend an item that expensive and from a source unlikely to be allowed in most campaigns.

[Powerdork]

Magus / rogue hybrid with spontaneous casting

You do lose spell recall, but pearls of power can cover for that.

You mean something else, right?

[Kurald Galain]

You mean something else, right?

Right. Runestones, not pearls.

[Powerdork]

Plus, spontaneous spellcasting in the first place, so keeping that spell you just cast is a basic part of casting.

[Syll]

Thank you for the response on the archetype Kurald (also, I'm a malazan fan, so i appreciate that too :P )

A question about runestones though; the wording on them seems to me they would not be eligible for use with spellstrike, am I off base on that? The loss of spell recall would be a sizable hit to spells/day.

There may be a workaround, or a misinterpretation on my part, but the switch to spontaneous will hurt Spellscars Arcana quite a bit, as well as the inability to couple metamagic with spellstrike. Are these just non-issues relative to the power gained from the archetype? (spontaneous metafocus being 1 spell only, and also having a CHA requirement while Spiderhawk is a INT spontaneous caster)

[Kurald Galain]

A question about runestones though; the wording on them seems to me they would not be eligible for use with spellstrike, am I off base on that?
The runestone specifies it's part of spellcasting, not a distinct standard action. So yes, it works.


There may be a workaround, or a misinterpretation on my part, but the switch to spontaneous will hurt Spellscars Arcana quite a bit, as well as the inability to couple metamagic with spellstrike.
The point of spell-scars is to use scrolls without having to draw them. That it functions as a backup spellbook isn't really important. As you've mentioned, spont.metafocus covers for using metamagic in spellstrike; there's usually only one or spells you want to use metamagic with, anyway.

But what you haven't actually mentioned is why you want a spiderhawk. You're looking at a poorly-written archetype and then concluding that it has issues. And indeed it does; so why not play another archetype that boosts damage, such as the Bladebound? Or if you want to be spontaneous, how about the Eldritch Scion?

[Syll]

The point of spell-scars is to use scrolls without having to draw them. That it functions as a backup spellbook isn't really important. As you've mentioned, spont.metafocus covers for using metamagic in spellstrike; there's usually only one or spells you want to use metamagic with, anyway.

My default assumption is that I will be unable to shop for scrolls, and the ones I do find will be randomly generated; spell scars would be my only reliable means of having scrolls. I'm not convinced I'll be able nab runestones either, for that matter

And I was saying spont. Metafocus was Not viable, because of the Cha pre-req.



But what you haven't actually mentioned is why you want a spiderhawk. You're looking at a poorly-written archetype and then concluding that it has issues. And indeed it does; so why not play another archetype that boosts damage, such as the Bladebound? Or if you want to be spontaneous, how about the Eldritch Scion?

Swift action teleports, far better class skill list, evasion, full access to rogue talents & swift action teleports. Sneak Attack's not bad either. Also they stay int based, unlike eldritch scion.

Would you still consider spiderhawk an upgrade without assumed access to scrolls/runestones?

We rolled stats; spont. Metafocus isn't an option.

[Kurald Galain]

My default assumption is that I will be unable to shop for scrolls, and the ones I do find will be randomly generated; spell scars would be my only reliable means of having scrolls.Or you could take the scribe scroll feat. Spell-scars is better for a Magus, but comes online a few levels later.


Would you still consider spiderhawk an upgrade without assumed access to scrolls/runestones?
Yes, because lack of magical items and consumables hurts every Magus build, not just this one.

[Kurald Galain]

PFS update. Predictably, the flamefire rage feat isn't going to be legal. Neither are nimble armor and, surprisingly, spring-loaded scroll cases. Also surprising is that wildblood concoction is legal now, making it a great pick for any melee character.

[narvosa]

Hello, I have a sort of random question. I have used your guide for a bit for quick references, so thank you and great job on that!

So question time, I am playing a mindblade magus coming up. I am looking for a endgame goal of two weapon fighting with multiple charge spells for flavor. I know its not 100% max damage output or what have you but its more a RP campaign than a combat campaign. Is there any way other than a multiple charge touch spell to apply spellstrike on both weapons? Like say casting a spell holding a charge, and then on the next round apply it with one strike then cast another touch spell after its discharged to discharge two in one round? I am assuming know due to action economy but didn't no if there was a way to quicken or do anything odd with it.

[Kurald Galain]

Like say casting a spell holding a charge, and then on the next round apply it with one strike then cast another touch spell after its discharged to discharge two in one round?
Yes, that's legal. For instance, round one cast Frostbite and make four attacks with it (spell combat, regular, haste, iterative); then next round first make three attacks with frostbite (regular, haste, iterative) then cast another spell.

Another way of doing this is Quicken Spell, although that's a very late-game option. Yet another way is spellstoring weapons.

[narvosa]

Awesome thanks! That is exactly what I wanted!

[Ellrin]

PFS update. Predictably, the flamefire rage feat isn't going to be legal. Neither are nimble armor and, surprisingly, spring-loaded scroll cases. Also surprising is that wildblood concoction is legal now, making it a great pick for any melee character.

Sorry to take us off on another tangent, but while the subject's relatively fresh, does anyone know if there's a way to adjudicate by RAW whether the nimble enchantment's extra weight is added before or after adjusting weight for a special material? E.g., if you make your masterwork breastplate (normally 30 lb.) out of mithral (divide weight in half) and give it the nimble property (+5 lb.), would it weigh 17.5 lb. or 20 lb.?

[upho]

Sorry to take us off on another tangent, but while the subject's relatively fresh, does anyone know if there's a way to adjudicate by RAW whether the nimble enchantment's extra weight is added before or after adjusting weight for a special material? E.g., if you make your masterwork breastplate (normally 30 lb.) out of mithral (divide weight in half) and give it the nimble property (+5 lb.), would it weigh 17.5 lb. or 20 lb.?The enchantment's weight adjustment is made after that of the special material, since you need to have an actual armor (which has a certain weight) before you can enchant said armor. You cannot start with a certain enchanted steel armor and then transform it into being made of mithral instead. Hence, a nimble mithral breastplate weighs 20 lb.

[Kurald Galain]

The enchantment's weight adjustment

"Nimble" is not an enchantment, but an armor modification.

[upho]

"Nimble" is not an enchantment, but an armor modification.Ouch, sorry. Totally brainderped. :smallredface:

Anyhow, strictly according to RAW, it appears what I wrote in my previous post still applies though (my emphasis):

"While these modifications add to the price (and often the weight) of the modified armor... ...These modifications are added to mundane armor after creation at the listed cost." (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment/armor/armor-modifications/)

The modifications due to special materials are however added when the armor is created, not after. So in other words, mods cannot be made in special materials. Their cost and any changes are independent of any alterations caused by special materials and stack with those alterations.

[Kurald Galain]

From Ultimate Wilderness, added the Nature Bound archetype (whose main point is getting druid spells; other than that it doesn't really do anything and it does lose Arcane Pool of all things...) and downgraded the Snowball spell since it's been errata'ed to no longer bypass SR.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

Blood of the Coven has a new archetype for magus, as well as a handful of new curse spells (one of which the magus gets natively).

The Hexbreaker suffers from a narrow focus, but I think it does actually get the job done effectively. It loses spell recall for the ability to spend an arcane pool point as an immediate action to remove a curse spell or curse-like effect such as a hex, as per Remove Curse. They also add Remove Curse and Break Enchantment to their spell list. Instead of improved spell recall, they can spend an additional two points when successful to reflect it back onto the caster. It comes with two arcana options, one for spending multiple points to get bonuses on the dispel check for Remove Curse (though it also makes the first point do it at +2), and another that makes it when you remove any spell with Remove Curse, Break Enchantment, or Dispel Magic, you can spend a point to deal 1d4/level of the spell.

[Kurald Galain]

Blood of the Coven has a new archetype for magus, as well as a handful of new curse spells (one of which the magus gets natively).
Interesting, I had missed that one.

The main problem of the hexbreaker is the extreme rarity of curse effects. You can basically play through an entire campaign without encountering one, even if your GM is very lenient on the otherwise-undefined "curse-style effect". And even when the hexbreaker's counter is triggered, it has about a 50% chance to fail.

However, the archetype doesn't give up much to gain this effect, so it falls under "sure, why not?" At least it doesn't lose spell combat or arcane pool this time, right? :smallbiggrin: Of course the two new arcana are entirely pointless.

The new air curse spell has the problem that at lower levels, it's unlikely to do much (if it doesn't force the enemy to land it's basically wasted) whereas at higher levels the party can probably fly by themselves, so it's not very good. The water curse is pretty decent in a ship-based campaign, but otherwise aquatic opponents are likely capable of waterbreathing anyway.

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It's very campaign-specific. I'm running Reign of Winter, and the PCs would KILL for easy curse removal at the level the hexbreaker gets it.

[Jim41]

Hello everyone!

First off, thanks for the guide! It's so great and I've used it to help design a Magus for the current campaign I'm playing. I'm really just getting into Pathfinder, this is only my second campaign, and it's really helped me with the mechanics of building my character this time around.

I do have a question about the mechanics of spellstrike. I've seen lots of posts and threads on this topic, including this one, and the general consensus is that after casting Frostbite casting another spell overrides the charges left from the casting of FB, which RAW seems to be the way it is. However, I found this comment from one of the creative directors of Paizo on a old FAQ page (2012, and nothing on the matter officially since, that I can find anyway) and was wondering how it effected the rules on this (if at all). The post I'm referencing is this:

"Diego Rossi wrote:
'A question about chill touch and similar spells with an instantaneous duration and multiple touches.
The touches after the first round count as held charges and so disappear if you cast any other spell?'

Chill touch is a weird spell. The touch attacks it grants do not function as "held charges." They don't disappear if you cast another spell, and the spell is pretty vague on how long the effects last—in theory, you could cast the spell on a Tuesday and still have some touches left over on Friday, for example, as long as you haven't made more touches than your level. Re-casting the spell when you still have charges left doesn't add to the existing charges—it merely resets your total available touches to its maximum."



This seems to imply that in fact another spell could be cast after Frostbite and the "charges" would still be there to use. Am I missing something, or is it just that most people apply the RAW for held charges and override the touches leftover when another spell is cast, in order to preserve balance? Which way would be RAI given the above quote?

[Kurald Galain]

I do have a question about the mechanics of spellstrike. I've seen lots of posts and threads on this topic, including this one, and the general consensus is that after casting Frostbite casting another spell overrides the charges left from the casting of FB, which RAW seems to be the way it is.
Yes. The way to work with this is, on turn one, to cast Frostbite and make all your attacks; then on turn two, first make all your iteratives and then cast another spell. Spell combat works both ways.


However, I found this comment from one of the creative directors of Paizo on a old FAQ page
Sorry, but comment posts from creative directors are just not an official rules source. I have no idea where this guy is coming from when he says they don't function as held charges, because the FAQ spells out that they totally do.

He's right that neither FB nor CT have a duration, so you could technically cast the spell last tuesday and still have it active. However, by RAW, touching pretty much anything will deliver a charge of the spell. I hope you like your food frosty!

[Jim41]

Thanks for the reply! That helped clear things up for me.

[Kurald Galain]

For the Nature-bounded archetype, added Cheetah's Sprint, Flame Blade, Free Spirit, and Wave Form spells. Added Agent of Chance trait, Collar of Sacrifice item, Tamer's Lash spell.

Does anyone see any good forms for the new Fey Form and Ooze Form spells? Ooze form strikes me as a rather horrible idea for a Magus, but Fey form may have potential. I'm considering the Pouncing Fury spell but it strikes me as not worth it (compared to e.g. Bladed Dash) unless you somehow get more than two claw attacks. I like the concept of the Flowering Lattice familiar, but providing a single goodberry per week just doesn't help. The new feats and familiar archetypes don't strike me as useful for the Magus.

[BornFlunky]

Huge fan of your guide, Mr. Galain. I'm still in the midst of my first Pathfinder campaign, but I've really gotten invested in the whole system, and your guide has made my initial experiences most enjoyable.

Anyway, I've been looking into a lot of possibilities with the new Ultimate Wilderness book, and I thought I'd quit lurking for a bit to mention some possible options for Fey Form, once you mentioned you were looking for suggestions. Forgive me if a few (if not most) of them are largely useless or done better with other options, as I'm still a bit of a novice, and even moreso when it comes to shapeshifting options -- I'll do my best to keep things relevant and concise.

So far, Fey Form seems particularly fantastic for a Natural Attack Magus, especially a sneaky one, as many of them have Invisibility as a spell-like option. A few of these are derived from Bestiary entries with really high CR, so there may be some standouts -- though again, I'm not 100% sure if these all translate into Fey Form. The spell caveat that transforms your items into those needed for certain abilities seems a bit odd, and may come down to GM discretion. I imagine it would apply to Fey that use weapons to apply their poisons.

This was just a quick blitz through the Fey listings under d20pfsrd's Bestiary. (Edit: Originally included links, but as this is my first post, I can't provide URLs. I'll edit and update this post when I'm not such a newbie here.)

The Ankou is a Large fey (5 ft. reach, sadly) that's got Blindsense, 60 ft. flight (good), a whopping 5 natural attacks (3 with a 2d6 bleed effect), and DR 2/Cold Iron.

The Boggart is small, and doesn't deal notable damage. However, it's got a 10 ft. reach and the Abduct ability. I'm unsure if the Psychic Magic available to it allows for the spell-like ability caveat in Fey Form, but if so, it's got access to Invisiblity.

The Boggle is small, has a climb speed, 4 natural attacks, DR 2/Cold Iron, and spell-like ability access to Invisibility and Dimension Door (unlike other fey options I've seen thusfar, this Dimension Door is not limited to self-only). Constant Greater Magic Fang as well, if you've done some Spell Blending.

The Cold Rider has got Darkvision, a decent natural attack, and icewalking. It's also got a pretty hefty list of weaknesses, though.

The Ekekeh is a Large Aquatic form that's got darkvision, high swim speed, DR 2/Cold Iron, and a rather "ouch-worthy" natural attack that includes electricity damage, on top of the spell-like option for Lightning Bolt. A cursory glance at standard aquatic baddies showed a few results for electricity vulnerability, so I thought that might be worth mentioning.

The Fey Giant Toad is a Large frog that has scent, swim and fly(?) speeds, DR 2/Cold Iron, and a natural attack with grab and 10 ft. reach. It can also Glitterdust as a spell-like. Unsure if its Poison Skin falls under "poison" listed in Fey Form II. I'm guessing not, but there it is.

The Fey Wolverine has darkvision, scent, burrow and climb speeds, and 3 natural attacks.

The Glaistig has... A lot of stuff that I'm not sure what to make of. It's CR 21 and Mythic 10 -- I'm not really sure how many, if any, of its attacks would translate into Fey Form. If any of them do, however, it would be rather stupidly powerful.

The Grig seems great for stealth and scouting. Tiny, decent flight, ability to cast invisibility on itself.

The Grimm is Large, has 10 ft. reach, and a trio of very painful natural attacks (2 claws for 2d8 each). Notably, it does not benefit from the usual DR, as it's against silver/good.

The Grimstalker is medium, has a climb speed, and has a couple natural attacks, but both apply Dex poison that requires multiple saves to cleanse.

The Huldra has darkvision, scent, and two natural attacks -- one of which, interestingly, does Charisma damage. It's listed under the attack, but also as a special ability, so I'm not sure if it applies.

The Ijiraq is a solid natural attacker that can, finally, be used with Fey Form I, as it's medium. 4 natural attacks (a pair of 2d4s and 2d6s, each), and the ability to use Fly, Dimension Door, and Sleet Storm as spell-likes. No speed or senses worth writing home about, though.

The Kamaitachi is medium, has scent, a fly speed, and 4 natural attacks -- All of which have a 19-20 crit range for x3 damage, in addition to applying bleed. Ouch. (This might be a candidate for Pouncing Fury -- all four of those are claw attacks)

The Lurker in Light is largely unremarkable, save for its poison, which has STR drain going for it, on top of STR damage.

The Nereid has a poison that can target touch AC, at melee or range. It's got a high save DC, and inflicts Con damage and blindness.

The Oceanid is an aquatic that has a high swim speed, darkvision, tremorsense (in water), and a particularly damaging ranged natural attack (7d6).

The Pooka is unremarkable beyond its poison, which damages both WIS and CHA at the same time. Or, it can make its target drunk.

The Remacera is Large, has reach, and has a bite attack that does decent damage -- including sonic damage.

The Rusalka is Medium, has 4 painful natural attacks that each have 15 ft. reach and come with grab, and the constrict ability.

The Sangoi is Small, has 3 natural attacks that all come with bleed, and Blood Rage.

The Stroke Lad has a natural attack that comes with 1d6 DEX drain.

The Vilderavn is medium, has See in Darkness, high land and fly speeds, and some solid natural attacks -- all of which have bleed, and the bite attack has a crit range of 15-20.

The Whisperer is Large and normally CR 20 -- See in Darkness, top-notch flight, and 6 natural attacks that hit for 3d10 each, against touch AC, with a 19-20 crit range.

The Wild Hunt Horse is Large, has reach, high speed and 3 natural attacks, two of which have bleed. Can possibly be ridden, for maximum ridiculousness?

The Wild Hunt Hound is medium, comes with almost every sense you'd ever need (scent, blindsense, see in darkness), has a decent speed, and three natural attacks. The bite attack trips.

I hope this was at least a bit helpful, and not ill-formatted. 'Tis my first post here. Apologies for any incidental social faux pas.

Regardless, thanks again for all the effort you've put into this guide!

[Kurald Galain]

Anyway, I've been looking into a lot of possibilities with the new Ultimate Wilderness book, and I thought I'd quit lurking for a bit to mention some possible options for Fey Form, once you mentioned you were looking for suggestions. Forgive me if a few (if not most) of them are largely useless or done better with other options, as I'm still a bit of a novice, and even moreso when it comes to shapeshifting options -- I'll do my best to keep things relevant and concise.
Thank you for your suggestions. The main issue is that Fey Form does not give you the spell-like abilities of the form you take. So no free invisibility to go around. Fey Form II does give a metric ton of abilities, although you only get that spell at level sixteen...

[Ninjaxenomorph]

It doesn't give you the SLAs, but its worth noting what SLAs the form would have because Fey Form lets you auto still/silence the spell when you cast it, plus the spell cannot be countered.

[Kurald Galain]

That's fair.

I've also just realized that the Nature-bound Magus is an excellent one- or two-level dip for most other melee classes. You'll get spell combat, cast from two different lists, and a free familiar as part of the bargain. At levels 1 through 4, a familiar is better than your arcane pool enchant ability.

[BornFlunky]

Ninjaxenomorph beat me to it -- I just mentioned the SLA availability for that reason. A lot of fey seem to be built around ambushing and sneak attacks -- since a few sneak attack options are listed in the guide, I thought it was worth consideration. Fey Form II really does seem like a devastating option for the Natural Attack Magus for those reasons and more; I'm a bit torn on whether or not some of those options beat Monstrous Physique at high levels, now.

Putting Fey Form II aside, though, the Boggle, Kamaitachi, Rusalka, and Ijiraq all seem like pretty solid natural attack options available from Fey Form I at level 10, even without bleed. At the very least, it seems they'd be on par with the Tikbalang or Witchwyrd at the same level, if not a bit better.

[Coniugatio]

Since you didn't mention them in your original guide: What do you think of making a merfolk magus?

[Kurald Galain]

Since you didn't mention them in your original guide: What do you think of making a merfolk magus?

Their ability scores and AC bonus make them a strong pick. The only problem is lack of land speed, so I suggest taking the Strongtail racial ability and the Fleet feat. Or play at a high enough level that you can fly at need.

[Chitoh]

Hi, I'm trying to build an Archer Eldritch and I do not know where to start, any recommendations?

Ty

[Kurald Galain]

Hi, I'm trying to build an Archer Eldritch and I do not know where to start, any recommendations?

Yes, that's what the guide is for :smallbiggrin:

I recommend you start by picking a blue- or green-rated race you like, then distribute scores as suggested for a dex build (because, you know, archer), then look for three or four blue- or green-rated feats you like. Then post the result.

[tadkins]

Weird question, was just something I was thinking about earlier...

Is it possible to build a Gun-toting Magus?

[Kurald Galain]

Is it possible to build a Gun-toting Magus?

Yes. Despite its name, the Eldritch Archer works best with firearms such as the musket, which make attacks against touch AC.

[tadkins]

Yes. Despite its name, the Eldritch Archer works best with firearms such as the musket, which make attacks against touch AC.

Oh awesome, thanks! That's precisely what I was thinking about too. "Something like the Eldritch Archer but with guns." But that's a lot more convenient. :)

[Kurald Galain]

Looking over the Potions & Poisons book, I find that most of the content of this books are either consumables that are way too expensive (seriously, why would anyone pay 1500 for a one-shot elixir when scrolls are around 150?), or lower-level variants of existing spells. The problem with the latter is that they tend to already exist. For instance, the book prints a level-3 version of Dimension Door with shorter range, but whoever wrote this forgot that the Storm Step spell already does that. And there are numerous feats for grippli and nagaji who want to spit venom at people. Overall I don't see any particular stand-outs for the Magus in thie book.

[tadkins]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be magically skilled to use a scroll? Whereas any dummy can chug a potion?

Magi would have no issues there but fighters and the like would still find those potions useful.

[khadgar567]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be magically skilled to use a scroll? Whereas any dummy can chug a potion?

Magi would have no issues there but fighters and the like would still find those potions useful.
exacly right tadkins

[Sayt]

Pots and Poisons also opens up spells for Alchemists, but this is a Magus guide thread, first and foremost.

[Kurald Galain]

Correct me if I'm wrong but don't you have to be magically skilled to use a scroll? Whereas any dummy can chug a potion?
Sure. But regular potions are between 50 and 300 gp, and this book has several at 1500 gp that aren't noticeably stronger than their cheaper counterparts.

[longanxy]

Must say that Orator is a great feat for any magus who needed social skill, like in PFS or some social-intensed AP, or for players who likes both social interacting and magus it self. It's not full use of diplomacy, but compinaison with really high bluff, intimidate and multiple languages makes you shining in an additional 50% of times.

If a magi is nor dex build nor one slash one killed shocking grasp build, they can afford those two feats (orator and prereq: skill focus lingustics)

Magi needs to spend two trait for diplomacy class skill+ int mod. That's expensive, especially if you need another trait like magical lineage or magic knack.

[Kurald Galain]

Added Fey Form spell and Shackle spells; and Murksight and Gift of Consumption hexes.


Magi needs to spend two trait for diplomacy class skill+ int mod. That's expensive
Yes it is. So I don't get why your proposed solution is spending two feats on it :smallamused:

[longanxy]

I've explained why in my last post. But it's my plaisir to explique again. Maybe you should consider the quality-price of those two feats before simply judging it.

Magi don't need much ressources to build a "considerable" combat capacity. It's not a full combat game, right? As I said, its great for players who likes BOTH MAGI AND SOCIAL INTERACTING, and there is certainly no better alternative. It's like spending one feat for +4 or spending two feats for +20. Spending THOSE two feats worth much for charactors like wizards or magi, who can have a high int attribute, have neither diplomacy class skill nor charisma, and have some not so feat intensed build (the most important).

Those two feats makes a great deal in games such as PFS or social oriented AP/modules, especially with human or half-elf, and probably, a parrot familiar which granted an additional +3.

I must submitted that now I prone to lying to NPCs while gaining advantages during a social encounter, while being able to discribe all thassilonian or osiriani ancient gryphs and enjoying of being the team's face.

My first charactor in this concept reachs level 8 months ago (PFS), he's NOT a fighting machine, but handles fight stuffs as well as many skill challenge. I used two similar (but differents in combat style) charactors to play other house games, one killed in an ambush and the other lives and leads well.

[Kurald Galain]

It's like spending one feat for +4 or spending two feats for +20.
Please show the math on that +20, noting that the Magus doesn't have linguistics as a class skill, and that the Orator feat only applies to one out of the four listed uses for Diplomacy, and one out of six specified uses for Bluff.

[longanxy]

Please show the math on that +20, noting that the Magus doesn't have linguistics as a class skill, and that the Orator feat only applies to one out of the four listed uses for Diplomacy, and one out of six specified uses for Bluff.

OK my bad you got the point, my charactor have one level dip in occultist that gives me linguistic class skill. Beside of it, it's 50% time of use of diplomacy and
90% time of use of bluff and intimidate, if not used in combat: many of the ways of use of bluff are really not common in campaign, you know it but you just avoid it. Another point of mine is one trait with linguistic as class skill is no big deal, because you can still choose the one magic trait, it's far different than two trait.

Here is the math: Magi's int modifier is usually 4 (5 or more at higher level) higher than cha modifier, that makes an addition of (+4 attribute +3 class skill +3 feat) x 230% = +23.

Additionally, at higher level, the +3 feat becomes +6 and you probably have a parrot that makes all thos social skills +22 with an ioun stone at level 7, which makes reduce any beyond-planned situation in social encounters to the minimum.

Remember that Magi also lacks of skill point, so those feats makes greater use to magi than to, for example, investigators.

Hard to convince peoples with ideas that wasn't on their original way of though, even with open and brilliant peoples, but I hope you can consider it before fast reply and deny. Whatever I really appreciate your guide and give my supplementary suggestion as what I gave before, to peoples who needs, and I think it woudn't help if I reply to any short-judging-denying replies again.

[Aldrakan]

Another point of mine is one trait with linguistic as class skill is no big deal, because you can still choose the one magic trait, it's far different than two trait.

So you're now spending two feats and a trait. For someone who dismissed Shocking Grasp builds your suggestion curiously treats not being able to get "one magic trait" (could it be Magical Lineage?) as too high a cost to pay.



Here is the math: Magi's int modifier is usually 4 (5 or more at higher level) higher than cha modifier, that makes an addition of (+4 attribute +3 class skill +3 feat) x 230% = +23.

What is this? This isn't the math. This isn't even math. It's numbers and symbols reminiscent of math. This is gibberish. You are showing us gibberish.



Additionally, at higher level, the +3 feat becomes +6 and you probably have a parrot that makes all thos social skills +22 with an ioun stone at level 7, which makes reduce any beyond-planned situation in social encounters to the minimum.

So you're also locking in your familiar for this. And now you're buying an ioun stone.

I note you appear to have moved from demonstrating the benefits gained from taking those two feats to showing your total bonus.

[longanxy]

I repeated again and again:
1. This is situational, but great in such situations.
2. It cost something, but worth the cost.
3. The math part didn't includ parrot nor ioun stone. With familiar and ioun stone, it's about 35 additional total skill bonus. Something easily multipled and optimized is also one of its advantages.

Please don't replying like I was say "it is a golden choice for every one without any cost", and tell me that's gibberish.

Or are you just power gamer who never thought about a magus who talk and represent the party?

[Kurald Galain]

There's really no need to be insulting to people who disagree with you.

[Florian]

Or are you just power gamer who never thought about a magus who talk and represent the party?

I _am_ just a powergamer who lets the dedicated "Face" of the party do their work without trying to steal their thunder, while I'm happy to do the killing and be good at it.

Now if that "Face" is present, who am I to infringe on the chosen role?

So think about it and what this guide is for: Magus in a character in a party of four, clear roles distribution, be good at your role in the party.

What you're going on and on about could be seen in a favorable light of "Can a Magus step in when there's no Face", or "How can a Magus infringe on the role of a Face with the least effort?".

[longanxy]

There's really no need to be insulting to people who disagree with you.

Agreed. But the people I'm supposed to insult by saying "powergamer" insulted me first by qualifying my calcul as "gibberish", without any explaination.

I'll said it's understandable reposite.

To still say something constructive about the other "I_am_just a power gamer" reply:

About the "face" problem, even in a five adventurers party, you sometimes can be the face without stealing other roles (when there is no "NATURAL FACE"), for exemple, in a team composed by a Frontliner that is not paladin, a Main Caster that is not charisma based, a Healer like cleric who lacks of skill point, and a Scout who don't have charisma neither, plus you, a magus.

In this really common case, or you or the main caster must use intelligence to be the face. Both is better, to avoid failure.

In a 4 players party, there is even more possibility that there is no such a natural face.

And then Magus, as a multi-talented class, often takes the place of those natural team face, like bards, inquisitors or investigators. A structurel fact that is not known by many peoples.

[Florian]

That might be true, but that is not the point of a "Guide to the Magus in a regular party".

While I actually agree with you, we´d need a (more or less) commonly accepted "Guide to the roles" and a "Guide to PFS" as a reference point in the first place, Maybe we´d need some guides to the different APs, too? I mean, did you know that a Shocking Grasp Magus is by far the worst build for the Wrath of the Righteous AP due to demons being the most common enemy type and being outright immune?

So, no, a guide can handle more than only the "raw class" and maybe make note of specialities outside of that.

[Ellrin]

Agreed. But the people I'm supposed to insult by saying "powergamer" insulted me first by qualifying my calcul as "gibberish", without any explaination.

As a neutral party in this discussion, I'd like to point out that your "calcul" was pretty gibberishy. Perhaps it makes more sense when the thought process behind it is fully laid out, but the equation you gave is hardly transparent. Where are you even getting a multiplier from?

I get that you're trying to come at this with the goal of consolidating these skills' functions, but your argument in support of its hypothetical superiority to a more piecemeal approach to a social magus is a bit all over the place, and more than a little difficult to follow.

[Kurald Galain]

Here's some math.

Level 7 Magus with diplomacy skill + skill focus + additional traits feat gets a modifier of +17, and can get +21 by casting Assumed Likeness. He can only make about half of all social checks since he doesn't have Bluff.
Level 7 Magus with linguistics + skill focus + orator gets a mod of +13. He can only make about half of all social checks because Orator only works with certain usages of the skills.

Masterwork item, ioun stone, or familiar bonus apply to both equally. So while party face is certainly a viable role for the Magus, this shows that the Orator feat is just not the best way to do that.

[longanxy]

As a neutral party in this discussion, I'd like to point out that your "calcul" was pretty gibberishy. Perhaps it makes more sense when the thought process behind it is fully laid out, but the equation you gave is hardly transparent. Where are you even getting a multiplier from?

In my reply #740, I explained:

“Beside of it, it's 50% time of use of diplomacy and
90% time of use of bluff and intimidate, if not used in combat: many of the ways of use of bluff are really not common in campaign, you know it but you just avoid it”

50%+90%+90%=230%, that's where the "x230%" comes. It's not a precise multiplier, but still reasonable.


Here's some math.

Level 7 Magus with diplomacy skill + skill focus + additional traits feat gets a modifier of +17, and can get +21 by casting Assumed Likeness. He can only make about half of all social checks since he doesn't have Bluff.
Level 7 Magus with linguistics + skill focus + orator gets a mod of +13. He can only make about half of all social checks because Orator only works with certain usages of the skills.

Thank you for replying seriously.

Magus with int diplomacy generally don't take skill focus, and magus with orator can take a trait to make linguistic a class skill AND another important trait without taking additional trait. Assumed likeness is a will disbelief 2nd level spell, which makes it expensive and not reliable, so it is not appropriate to bring it directly in the calcul.

Orator is not only "about half of all checks", because it's almost all the common social use of bluff and intimidate, and if you succeed at changing people's attitude toward friendly, the DC of making request becomes really low - so it's even more than half of diplomacy itself. Experienced adventurer makes rarely request without changing other's attitude. I must say it's still humble to say it's just "3/4 of all checks"

As a result of those two point, it's about "+14 for 1/2 of all social checks plus one free feat" or "+17 for 3/4 of all social checks". Giving up one feat for +15% succed chance (additional +3 means +15% in d20s) and 50% of usage coverage (1/2 to 3/4) is still a good deal.

[Ellrin]

50%+90%+90%=230%, that's where the "x230%" comes. It's not a precise multiplier, but still reasonable.

https://i.imgur.com/LWlOV7h.png