[D&D 3.5e / Pathfinder] PvP-Oriented Class?

[wkwkwkwk1]

Hey, everyone!

My question is fairly simple: is there any D&D 3.5 or Pathfinder class either designed with PvP in mind, or that would serve well for such a purpose?

Please note that, when I say PvP, I do not mean your standard, 1 vs. 1, plain arena PvP, where casters are king and fighter-types suck, yadda, yadda, yadda.

No, I mean a "long-term", all-vs-all type of PvP, where casters don't know their threats in advance, must rest to prepare spells, and if they end up in a no-magic zone or simply run out of spells, they are as good as dead. And healing doesn't just "happen" between fights.

I was thinking about something in the lines of a character with several options that don't all boil down to spells:
- The Druid: Probably one of the classes with the most options. Still relies too much on magic for my taste
- The Rogue: A bunch of skills and skill points, can deal a lot of damage on a successful surprise round and after, in case she wins initiative; can cast spells with UMD
- The Ranger: Full BAB, which means nice melee and especially nice ranged combat abilities, some healing and spellcasting capabilities (even more for a mystic ranger), can pick up the Druid's shapeshifting for the cost of three feats
- The Duskblade: Full BAB, coupled with arcane spellcasting

As you can probably see, except for the Druid, these classes are Tier 3 or lower. Why? Because, if they run out of spells, they aren't screwed.

So, are there any classes that can hold their own against other PCs?

Note: Homebrew included

wkwkwkwk1

[noob]

You should say "reasonable homebrewed" else I can just make the list of the fan made classes who makes you immortal, immortal and immortal and allow you to kill anyone just by writing his name on a book and who can know the name of someone by looking at him and other kind of absurd classes.
I think that in the base manuals dwarf barbarians are not bad(in an anti-magic zone).
Else you can try prestige classes with stuff like frenzied berseker hurling hulk and so on.(in anti-magic zones)

[wkwkwkwk1]

You should say "reasonable homebrewed" else I can just make the list of the fan made classes who makes you immortal, immortal and immortal and allow you to kill anyone just by writing his name on a book and who can know the name of someone by looking at him and other kind of absurd classes.
I think that in the base manuals dwarf barbarians are not bad(in an anti-magic zone).
Else you can try prestige classes with stuff like frenzied berseker hurling hulk and so on.(in anti-magic zones)

Well, quite obviously, I'm counting on the sensibleness of Playgrounders to discern between reasonable homebrew and bad homebrew :smallbiggrin:

Welcome to Giant in the Playground, and thanks for the reply! :smallsmile:

[Spore]

If I have learned anything from the playground it it is that a wizard in his private demiplane astral projecting himself onto the battlefield (and expending a big amount of spells per day to gaining said knowledge of the battlefield) is still fairly uncontested. They still can tip the scale of a battle in mere seconds with a single spell so this isn't a matter of which classes but more a matter of: "Who picks the battlefield and time to his advantage?"

[ComaVision]

Well, quite obviously, I'm counting on the sensibleness of Playgrounders to discern between reasonable homebrew and bad homebrew :smallbiggrin:

Welcome to Giant in the Playground, and thanks for the reply! :smallsmile:

The Tier 1s, played as Tier 1s, still come out on top. The Wizard is probably hanging out in another plane while he "scry and die"s other people with Astral Projections. Nobody except other casters is going to be dropping AMFs anyway.

EDIT: damn swordsages

[wkwkwkwk1]

Okay, I should probably have said this before: I mean at low levels, before the most ridiculous spells come in. Say, 6th to 13th level.

[noob]

The Tier 1s, played as Tier 1s, still come out on top. The Wizard is probably hanging out in another plane while he "scry and die"s other people with Astral Projections. Nobody except other casters is going to be dropping AMFs anyway.
You know there is magic items creating amf(like that shield who on command create a amf once per day) also a warrior can have something giving him impenetrable spirit that 222% of the population knows to be absolutely necessary for making more than one step without dying.

[ComaVision]

Okay, I should probably have said this before: I mean at low levels, before the most ridiculous spells come in. Say, 6th to 13th level.

In that case, I change my answer to Mystic Ranger 5/Abjurant Champion X with Sword of the Arcane order so you have full BaB and Sorceror casting. Still Tier 1 though, and I'd take a Wizard over the T4s any day.

[ComaVision]

You know there is magic items creating amf(like that shield who on command create a amf once per day) also a warrior can have something giving him impenetrable spirit that 222% of the population knows to be absolutely necessary for making more than one step without dying.

What/Where is Impenetrable Spirit?

[wkwkwkwk1]

In that case, I change my answer to Mystic Ranger 5/Abjurant Champion X with Sword of the Arcane order so you have full BaB and Sorceror casting. Still Tier 1 though, and I'd take a Wizard over the T4s any day.

Hmmm, and still has healing magic and good combat abilities, I like it!

No straight classes, though?

One class that raised my interest was the Slayer from PF. What do you think of it?

[A Tad Insane]

A luck spellthief would do surprisingly well. Steal some of the t1s spells while everyone dog piles them, then be sneaky and still have spells.
The druid would still probably dominate though, as it's one of the t1s that is actually still amazing at low levels

[ComaVision]

Hmmm, and still has healing magic and good combat abilities, I like it!

No straight classes, though?

One class that raised my interest was the Slayer from PF. What do you think of it?

DISCLAIMER: I don't not play with Pathfinder and my knowledge of the Slayer consists of a cursory glance.

I think it'd do great against low-tier classes. The tracking and stealth would do great in a Hunger Games-esque scenario. Unfortunately, a Tier 1 can just do most of these things better. Slayer would really shine with good poisons but they're expensive, and Slayer doesn't have access to spells like Minor Creation. Additionally, spells for stealth, and scrying are superior to their mundane counterparts.

Caster superiority is just kind of a fact of the 3.PF system.

EDIT: And seconding that a Druid would absolutely slay at this sort of thing. Wildshape alone would make it a fierce competitor, then you tack on the companion and spellcasting.

[atemu1234]

Druid is nice at level 6+, but Wizards still... win. Maybe a Generalist Domain wizard, to win everything?

[wkwkwkwk1]

Okay, yes, as I said, casters are superior, but when they run out of spells, or when their threats are different from what they prepared for? Then they lose most of their usefulness.

Also, yes, Druids rock.

[ComaVision]

Okay, yes, as I said, casters are superior, but when they run out of spells, or when their threats are different from what they prepared for? Then they lose most of their usefulness.

Also, yes, Druids rock.

If they feel they're risking it with their current load-out, they can get away with ease. A Slayer has no chance of tracking down a Wizard that Teleported 100 km away and is smoking his pipe while scrying said Slayer.

[wkwkwkwk1]

If they feel they're risking it with their current load-out, they can get away with ease. A Slayer has no chance of tracking down a Wizard that Teleported 100 km away and is smoking his pipe while scrying said Slayer.

Well, with that I must agree! :smallbiggrin:

Still, not until 9th level :smalltongue:

[(Un)Inspired]

Okay, yes, as I said, casters are superior, but when they run out of spells, or when their threats are different from what they prepared for? Then they lose most of their usefulness.

Also, yes, Druids rock.


What kind of a schmuck caster lets themself run out of spells or prepares spells that aren't universally applicable to any situation?

Besides, even in the 6-13 level range relying on spells for fighting is like how a caveman would go to war. Just having your planar bound, undead, summoned, familiar, thrall herd army fight for you.

[Pluto!]

Even without going in for way out-there nonsense like time-accelerated personal planes, there are enough very basic effects like Teleport and Rope Trick that anything that's not a full caster is misguided.

I'm the last person who will say "scrap your quirky Monk build, play an Incantatrix instead," but if you're talking about comparing any reflection of power level, the guy who reshapes reality trumps the guy with the stick.

[icefractal]

Going to need more information. Are the PCs trying specifically to slay each-other, or are they just pursuing different goals that are likely to bring them in conflict? How much, if anything, do they know about the other PCs? Is there an overall time frame, or can an Elan literally wait for all his rivals to die off? Are they compelled to fight each-other directly, or can they raise an army to go do it for them? When you say level 6-13, do you mean the PCs will start at some point in that range and stay there, or they start at 6th level and can gain more (max 13)? Even if they can't level normally, what about methods like Lycanthropy, Barghest tricks, etc?

I wouldn't count casters out. While a non-arena format has some disadvantages for them in terms of prep and stamina, it also has some significant advantages for them in that backing off and fighting at your own pace is possible - and that's a tactic that casters are (generally) quite suited to.

At one extreme, for example, if the format is just "Your goal is to be the last PC standing, you can go anywhere in the world and do anything toward that purpose, no time limit," then personal combat ability matters much less than the ability to build up power over time.

On the other hand, if the format is "You're all in 1 mile radius demiplane. No other inhabitants. Leaving it counts as a loss." then all that long-term stuff is pretty pointless.

[wkwkwkwk1]

Going to need more information. Are the PCs trying specifically to slay each-other, or are they just pursuing different goals that are likely to bring them in conflict? How much, if anything, do they know about the other PCs? Is there an overall time frame, or can an Elan literally wait for all his rivals to die off? Are they compelled to fight each-other directly, or can they raise an army to go do it for them? When you say level 6-13, do you mean the PCs will start at some point in that range and stay there, or they start at 6th level and can gain more (max 13)? Even if they can't level normally, what about methods like Lycanthropy, Barghest tricks, etc?

I wouldn't count casters out. While a non-arena format has some disadvantages for them in terms of prep and stamina, it also has some significant advantages for them in that backing off and fighting at your own pace is possible - and that's a tactic that casters are (generally) quite suited to.

At one extreme, for example, if the format is just "Your goal is to be the last PC standing, you can go anywhere in the world and do anything toward that purpose, no time limit," then personal combat ability matters much less than the ability to build up power over time.

On the other hand, if the format is "You're all in 1 mile radius demiplane. No other inhabitants. Leaving it counts as a loss." then all that long-term stuff is pretty pointless.

What gave me the idea to look for a PvP-oriented class was the "City of Blades" game hosted by Jormengand. The premise: six players of 6th level enter into the city in different spots, one leaves.

Now, this takes away the possibility of leaving the city, and a good Gather Information check, coupled with Urban Tracking, can lead you to your quarry. Also, having to deal with five opponents in a small city can quickly exhaust your spell list at sixth level, or leave you with only low-level spells.

(Of course, they can ward their shelter more effectively than other classes. They just don't have means of teleportation or Contingency. Unless they are a Conjurer with Abrupt Jaunt, or course.)