Creative tactics - best (legit) moves

[Citan]

Hi all!

I've been wondering about the legality of some creative uses of spells/techniques, either solo or as coordinated team attacks. Since I lack experience with dd5, not sure my ideas are legit. What do you think? And what are your own fun/crazy/powerful combos when working as a team (plz follow the numbering if possible)?


1. Darkness Bringer
Rogue Trickster + any spellcaster knowing Darkness.
a) Rogue Trickster invokes Mage Hand.
b) Spellcaster casts Darkness on it.
c) Rogue makes his Hand invisible.
>>> Movable, not-so-suspicious darkness area. For keeping guards blinded while you move through, or preventing pesky archers to hurt you...

2. Flame on!
Trickster's Mage Hand + oil + Firebolt.
a) Trickers use invisible Hand to pour inflammable oil on creature.
b) Ally caster prepared a coordinated attack with Firebolt.
>>> Can we assume a "burn status" on the target, and how much damage would it take?

3. "Spellcasting weapon/ammunition"
Thrown weapon or ammunition + Glyph of Warding
a) Spellcaster stores a spell "on" the weapon/ammunition, with condition such as "occurs on first hitting a creature" (even on hitting a "hostile creature").
b) Weapon holder throws the weapon or uses the ammunition.
c) Spell is triggered.
>>> "Ready to go" spell usable even by non-caster. Legit?
I see many creative ways to use it, like...
- Giving anyone a concentration-free buff (like Shield of Faith or Elemental Weapon, trigger "weapon is hold by handle") or instant reinforcements ("Conjure X, same trigger).
- Allowing a cast of damaging spell from a far distance without penalty (like Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse, Reduce, Dominate...)
EDIT: Erf, I missed the "object must not move beyond 10 feet". So goes my combos... :/ Is there any RAW or RAI way to achieve this kind of result (enchanting an object/weapon with a spell) ?

Anyway, it could work for a buff right? Glyph on weapon, buff spell, activates on touch >>> ally takes weapon in hands >>> spell activates.
Also wonders if "self spells" work too?

4. Enlarge: too big for your own good
Enlarge Spell description says "if there isn't enough space, the creature fills the room". So if that happens, can we consider that, unless being in gazeous form, the creature is totally restrained?

5. Levitate + Gust of Wind in open space.
a) Ally1 cast Levitate on creature.
b) Ally 2 places himself under creature then uses Gust of Wind upwards to push it further in the sky.
>>> Uses on ally for exploration.It certainly could be used on ally for exploration/reaching point.
>>> On enemy, is there no way to "make him fall"?
I understand that the wording "gently float to the ground" was intended for use on self/ally but I find very disturbing not being able to choose whether the creature floats or fall (should be lesser effort so acceptable) on spell end.

6. Thorn Whip (or Water Whip) as tools.
Would it be abuse to use them for something else than attacking a creature?
Ex1. Using it like a small rope to help climb a wall.
Ex2. Using it to retrieve an object (like a weapon dropped by an enemy with Command or other mean).

[SharkForce]

Hi all!

I've been wondering about the legality of some creative uses of spells/techniques, either solo or as coordinated team attacks. Since I lack experience with dd5, not sure my ideas are legit. What do you think? And what are your own fun/crazy/powerful combos when working as a team (plz follow the numbering if possible)?


1. Darkness Bringer
Rogue Trickster + any spellcaster knowing Darkness.
a) Rogue Trickster invokes Mage Hand.
b) Spellcaster casts Darkness on it.
c) Rogue makes his Hand invisible.
>>> Movable, not-so-suspicious darkness area. For keeping guards blinded while you move through, or preventing pesky archers to hurt you...

2. Flame on!
Trickster's Mage Hand + oil + Firebolt.
a) Trickers use invisible Hand to pour inflammable oil on creature.
b) Ally caster prepared a coordinated attack with Firebolt.
>>> Can we assume a "burn status" on the target, and how much damage would it take?

3. "Spellcasting weapon/ammunition"
Thrown weapon or ammunition + Glyph of Warding
a) Spellcaster stores a spell "on" the weapon/ammunition, with condition such as "occurs on first hitting a creature" (even on hitting a "hostile creature").
b) Weapon holder throws the weapon or uses the ammunition.
c) Spell is triggered.
>>> "Ready to go" spell usable even by non-caster. Legit?
I see many creative ways to use it, like...
- Giving anyone a concentration-free buff (like Shield of Faith or Elemental Weapon, trigger "weapon is hold by handle") or instant reinforcements ("Conjure X, same trigger).
- Allowing a cast of damaging spell from a far distance without penalty (like Blindness/Deafness, Bestow Curse, Reduce, Dominate...)
EDIT: Erf, I missed the "object must not move beyond 10 feet". So goes my combos... :/ Is there any RAW or RAI way to achieve this kind of result (enchanting an object/weapon with a spell) ?

Anyway, it could work for a buff right? Glyph on weapon, buff spell, activates on touch >>> ally takes weapon in hands >>> spell activates.
Also wonders if "self spells" work too?

4. Enlarge: too big for your own good
Enlarge Spell description says "if there isn't enough space, the creature fills the room". So if that happens, can we consider that, unless being in gazeous form, the creature is totally restrained?

5. Levitate + Gust of Wind in open space.
a) Ally1 cast Levitate on creature.
b) Ally 2 places himself under creature then uses Gust of Wind upwards to push it further in the sky.
>>> Uses on ally for exploration.It certainly could be used on ally for exploration/reaching point.
>>> On enemy, is there no way to "make him fall"?
I understand that the wording "gently float to the ground" was intended for use on self/ally but I find very disturbing not being able to choose whether the creature floats or fall (should be lesser effort so acceptable) on spell end.

6. Thorn Whip (or Water Whip) as tools.
Would it be abuse to use them for something else than attacking a creature?
Ex1. Using it like a small rope to help climb a wall.
Ex2. Using it to retrieve an object (like a weapon dropped by an enemy with Command or other mean).

1) the area is magically dark. it doesn't matter if the hand is invisible or not, the area will be equally suspicious in places that are not already dark whether the hand is invisible or not, even if you can cast the darkness on the hand (which is debatable, but since the hand's invisibility doesn't matter in the slightest, you can just throw it on a rock anyways)

2) the rules for using oil as described are right in the PHB, in the equipment section. (yes, it works)

3) as you've noticed, not particularly. you might be able to bypass the 10 foot restriction somewhat by using teleportation magic or portable pocket dimensions, however.

4) depends on situation. if the room is stone and they've filled the entire space, then they might even be effectively helpless.

5) i suppose you could. but levitate lets you increase your height anyways. why would you need to blow another spell on that?

6) not sure about using it as a rope (it doesn't appear to stay around for long enough... if you can climb the distance in about a second or so, maybe), but i'd let you target a weapon or other object.

[Slipperychicken]

For anything that takes a save, diviner wizard is great. Just roll low on a portent die, and make your target use that roll for his save. It can make a lot of combos go more smoothly.

[Citan]

@SharkForce thanks for your reply. Quick comments on your comments. :)

1) the area is magically dark. it doesn't matter if the hand is invisible or not, the area will be equally suspicious in places that are not already dark whether the hand is invisible or not, even if you can cast the darkness on the hand (which is debatable, but since the hand's invisibility doesn't matter in the slightest, you can just throw it on a rock anyways)
Well the thing is, if you cast on rock and throw it you cannot move it. Casting on hand would allow keeping enemies in dark even if they move (ex archers trying to get out of darkness to be able to shoot). Granted, there are probably many better ways to use bonus action in real combat, but is could be used as a non-agressive solution.


3) as you've noticed, not particularly. you might be able to bypass the 10 foot restriction somewhat by using teleportation magic or portable pocket dimensions, however.
Ok thanks for the tip on bypassing restrictions. Still, as RAW, I see it as a way to give max duration buff without concentration (like providing Shield of Faith, Stoneskin, Haste etc). Very expensive (Glyph + buff spell slot) but could be handy in some occasions since it frees one player's concentration slot. Still I admit it's very situational, considering most interesting spells last 1mn max (which implies you set this up just before combat) :/.


4) depends on situation. if the room is stone and they've filled the entire space, then they might even be effectively helpless.
Thanks for the confirmation.

5) i suppose you could. but levitate lets you increase your height anyways. why would you need to blow another spell on that?
You're right. Didn't realize the distance limit was the same so useless combination (unless you really need to move enemy quickly ^^).

6) not sure about using it as a rope (it doesn't appear to stay around for long enough... if you can climb the distance in about a second or so, maybe), but i'd let you target a weapon or other object.Ok thanks for clarification.

[SharkForce]

allow me to clarify on 1)

it doesn't matter if you can cast the darkness spell on the hand. you either cast it on the hand, or on a rock which the hand is holding. either way, the thing that is carrying the spell is in an area of magical darkness, and should not be visible.

[Ashrym]

Spell glyphs definitely have some potential use. Being permanent and bypassing concentration opens up room for all kinds of combinations.

The only issue with them is preparation time and lack of moving. And the gp costs can add up.

Setting up stacking buffs in a preplanned ambush site would be an example used to bypass stacking buff restrictions. Similarly, status effects can be stacked in a killzone that normally could not be.

[Easy_Lee]

7. Halfling Justice
Get yourself a party of lightfoot halflings who have the following characteristics:

Capable of a push spell or
Are an open hand monk

Cast fly on the open hand monk to set up this coordinated assault. Monk gets under the target (able to move through a larger creature's space) and open hand flurries it straight up. He flies upwards to open hand flurry it again while it's in the air. A wizard below releases a gust of wind. A warlock below releases a repelling eldritch blast. And so on, until the target is high in the air. Then it falls for all those d6.

[Citan]

allow me to clarify on 1)
it doesn't matter if you can cast the darkness spell on the hand. you either cast it on the hand, or on a rock which the hand is holding. either way, the thing that is carrying the spell is in an area of magical darkness, and should not be visible.
You're soo right... How could I not think of this, stupid me? :roy:

Spell glyphs definitely have some potential use. Being permanent and bypassing concentration opens up room for all kinds of combinations.
The only issue with them is preparation time and lack of moving. And the gp costs can add up.
Setting up stacking buffs in a preplanned ambush site would be an example used to bypass stacking buff restrictions. Similarly, status effects can be stacked in a killzone that normally could not be.
Well, I had another emotional downfall when reading yet again the spell description, which starts with "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures". So, while nothing in RAW prevents you to use the "spell option" to cast a buffing/positive spell, it may very well be deemed forbidden as per RAI. Which I would find very saddening because considering all the constraints to use it creatively, I don't feel it has any game-breaking power. And fluff-wise, I don't see why we would always want harmful Glyphs. Even not considering my initial ideas, you could want a restoration Glyph in your base for example (like when your cleric/bard/whatever is gone and you're hurt really bad) or any utility such as a Message (welcome Recorder Glyph). :)

7. Halfling Justice
Get yourself a party of lightfoot halflings who have the following characteristics:

Capable of a push spell or
Are an open hand monk

Cast fly on the open hand monk to set up this coordinated assault. Monk gets under the target (able to move through a larger creature's space) and open hand flurries it straight up. He flies upwards to open hand flurry it again while it's in the air. A wizard below releases a gust of wind. A warlock below releases a repelling eldritch blast. And so on, until the target is high in the air. Then it falls for all those d6.
That's exactly the kind of thing I wanted to achieve when considering Levitate / Gust of Wind. Thanks mate, very nice combination (by a stroke of luck, it so happens that one of the players in my campaign will be a halfling monk... ^^).

[Ashrym]

Well, I add another emotional downfall when reading yet again the spell description, which starts with "When you cast this spell, you inscribe a glyph that harms other creatures". So, while nothing in RAW prevents you to use the "spell option" to cast a buffing/positive spell, it may very well be deemed forbidden as per RAI. Which I would find very saddening because considering all the constraints to use it creatively, I don't feel it has any game-breaking power. And fluff-wise, I don't see why we would always want harmful Glyphs. Even not considering my initial ideas, you could want a restoration Glyph in your base for example (like when your cleric/bard/whatever is gone and you're hurt really bad) or any utility such as a Message (welcome Recorder Glyph). :)

That could be read a specific to explosive runes, fluff, or intent. The application of buff spell glyphs can be creative use of a typically but not necessarily offensive spell.

The mechanics clearly allow buffs so, imo, the harm portion in the description is nothing more than that but it would be reasonable for a DM to restrict the spell.

Protective glyphs or runes seem appropriate considering the spell caster is spending 2 slots, an hour, and gp just to bypass concentration in a specific area so I haven't seen a DM kybosh it yet.

In the event that does happen, however, the bypassing concentration on status effects in the ambush zone stands. ;-)

[burninatortrog]

1. Darkness Bringer
Legal.


2. Flame on!
Legal. See the rules for oil.


3. "Spellcasting weapon/ammunition"
DM-dependent. A strict reading of glyph of warding doesn't allow these tactics, but a very liberal reading might.


4. Enlarge: too big for your own good
No. The spell description does not say that.


5. Levitate + Gust of Wind in open space.
You can move a levitated creature using gust of wind, but you cannot use levitate to lift up an enemy and drop them for falling damage.


6. Thorn Whip (or Water Whip) as tools.
DM-dependent. By a strict reading of the rules, these tactics aren't allowed... but if I were the DM, I'd be extremely happy to see players using these spells this way.

[Citan]

That could be read a specific to explosive runes, fluff, or intent. The application of buff spell glyphs can be creative use of a typically but not necessarily offensive spell.

The mechanics clearly allow buffs so, imo, the harm portion in the description is nothing more than that but it would be reasonable for a DM to restrict the spell.

Protective glyphs or runes seem appropriate considering the spell caster is spending 2 slots, an hour, and gp just to bypass concentration in a specific area so I haven't seen a DM kybosh it yet.

In the event that does happen, however, the bypassing concentration on status effects in the ambush zone stands. ;-)
Thanks. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who feel forbidding "positive" spells would be a useless limitation. :)
Especially since, considering the RAW, there are not so many buffs that could applied after all...
I dreamt of a "self-activating" Elemental Weapon, but the spell engraved must specifically target a creature, so spells targeting weapons/objects are excluded per se.
Same with Auras or other self-buffs: considering that self-targeting spells would be legit since "self is a creature" seems too far-stretched in relation with the wording and probable intent.
Also, it could really open the door to many cheesy tactics so probably better this way in most cases.
Though, as a DM, I would probably allow it for a very high-level Artificer wizard since I feel it would be coherent with the archetype (but with custom limitations to avoid OP cheese).



Enlarge: too big for your own good
No. The spell description does not say that.

Hi, thanks for your opinions on legitimacy of these propositions. :)
One point though on Enlarge/Reduce. I'm sorry but the spell does say exactly that:

Enlarge. The target's size doubles in all dimensions, and its weight is multiplied by eight. This growth increases its size by one category—from Medium to Large, for example. If there isn't enough room for the target to double its size, the creature or object attains the maximum possible size in the space available.
So, I was considering the case of a Large creature in a small room, who would already have a hard time fitting in the room (like having to bow the head).

Or even, from a theorical point of view (because it would be probably difficult to achieve in real combat and too action-consuming), a combo of one ally enclosing a creature in a Wall of Stone (as close as possible to the creature) then another casting Enlarge nearly at the same time.

In both cases, I'd feel natural to consider that, since "the creature or object attains the maximum possible size in the space available", it means it has absolutely no way to move. Hence being under the "restrained" status. It would also be coherent with the status itself: 0 move speed, disadvantage on Dex checks, but can still use Strengh checks and cast spells.

[burninatortrog]

Sorry for the confusion. The enlarge/reduce spell description states explicitly what happens when it's cast on a target in a small space. It doesn't impose the restrained condition on the target.

[SharkForce]

Sorry for the confusion. The enlarge/reduce spell description states explicitly what happens when it's cast on a target in a small space. It doesn't impose the restrained condition on the target.

it doesn't apply a stated effect, but that doesn't mean it isn't appropriate to apply a given effect. if you are forced to your hands and knees and cannot even move because your body is compressed between the floor and ceiling, you are for all intents and purposes restrained.

[Ashrym]

it doesn't apply a stated effect, but that doesn't mean it isn't appropriate to apply a given effect. if you are forced to your hands and knees and cannot even move because your body is compressed between the floor and ceiling, you are for all intents and purposes restrained.

I concur. In such an instance it's not the spell providing the restriction but the environment. There's nothing wrong with applying the environment to the situation.

[Citan]

Hi all, thanks Ashrym and SharkForce for clarifying my intent.
By the way, this made me think about a crafty way to get rid of an opponent forever. But it would require (well, not per se but to improve efficiency) Banishment to be castable with auto-success on a friendly (willing) creature, which is not RAW...

8. Sayonara! (Perma-banish)
Requires: Giant Toad (preferably Familiar or Conjured) + Enlarge/Reduce (2 people at least because Concentration)
a) Use (conjured) Giant Toad to swallow an enemy.
b) Order it to spit on its next turn.
c) Cast Banishment on Giant Toad.
d) Wait a few seconds then...
1) end Conjuration spell (so you're certain enemy stays trapped).
2) end Banishment spell (if you're confident enemy has been spit out or you still need your Toad).
>>> Enemy creature stays on the distant plane.
It's acceptable right? It could also work even better if DM agrees that an Enlarged Giant Toad (becoming Large) could then swallow a Medium creature (it's not RAW but I would personally allow it unless people abuse it).

[Kryx]

That seems pretty abusive to me. I would likely rule that the swallowed creatures appears in the toad's space when it is banished, but I'd have to look closer.

[Morcleon]

These two aren't things that I really expect people to use in games, but they're good for theory/DM stuff.

9. Iceborn Resistance (only works at level 17+)
a) Get simulacrum and wish in your spellbook.
b) Buy 1500 gp worth of ruby dust.
c) Cast simulacrum targeting yourself. This copy will have your normal spell slots minus one 7th level slot.
d) Order the simulacrum to cast wish to create 25000 gp worth of ruby dust (or a 25000 gp ruby that you subsequently ground into dust if your DM is strict about the "one object" ruling).
e) Use Arcane Recovery (using 7 spell levels) to regain your 7th level spell slot.
f) See step c)
g) Order the simulacrum to cast wish on your entire party, granting them resistance to a damage type (going in order of fire/cold/lightning/acid/thunder/bludgeoning/piercing/slashing/necrotic/radiant/force/psychic).
h) Take a long rest.
i) Repeat steps c-h (replacing step d with another iteration of step g) six times, which should be sufficient to grant your party resistance to all damage. You also have a simulacrum with your spellcasting power (minus a 7th and 9th level slot) that you can use in your next encounter.

10. Iceborn Army (only works at level 20)
a) Get simulacrum and wish in your spellbook.
b) Buy 1500 gp worth of ruby dust.
c) Cast simulacrum, targeting yourself. This copy will have your normal spell slots minus one 7th level slot.
d) Order the simulacrum to cast wish to create 25000 gp worth of ruby dust (or a 25000 gp ruby that you subsequently ground into dust if your DM is strict about the "one object" ruling).
e) Repeat steps c and d with long rests as needed until you have 1500 gp worth of ruby dust for each soldier that you'd like your army to have.
f) See step c)
g) Order the simulacrum to cast simulacrum, targeting you.
h) Continue ordering the latest simulacrum in the chain to cast simulacrum, always targeting you, until you run out of ruby dust.
i) Congrats, you now have an army of level 20 wizards.

[Easy_Lee]

These two aren't things that I really expect people to use in games, but they're good for theory/DM stuff.

9. Iceborn Resistance (only works at level 17+)
a) Get simulacrum and wish in your spellbook.
b) Buy 1500 gp worth of ruby dust.
c) Cast simulacrum targeting yourself. This copy will have your normal spell slots minus one 7th level slot.
d) Order the simulacrum to cast wish to create 25000 gp worth of ruby dust (or a 25000 gp ruby that you subsequently ground into dust if your DM is strict about the "one object" ruling).
e) Use Arcane Recovery (using 7 spell levels) to regain your 7th level spell slot.


I read Simulacrum and thought, "oh boy, here we go." Haha, this is not a bad one, though one issue: arcane recovery can't recover spells of 6th level or higher, unless they changed it recently. Perhaps we can still salvage this, though.

[Morcleon]

I read Simulacrum and thought, "oh boy, here we go." Haha, this is not a bad one, though one issue: arcane recovery can't recover spells of 6th level or higher, unless they changed it recently. Perhaps we can still salvage this, though.

Oh, whoops. Didn't see that part. In that case, instead of taking 7 days, it takes 13. It'll go back down to 7 days once you hit level 20 and have two 7th level spell slots per day. :smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

10. Iceborn Army (only works at level 20)
a) Get simulacrum and wish in your spellbook.
b) Buy 1500 gp worth of ruby dust.
c) Cast simulacrum, targeting yourself. This copy will have your normal spell slots minus one 7th level slot.
d) Order the simulacrum to cast wish to create 25000 gp worth of ruby dust (or a 25000 gp ruby that you subsequently ground into dust if your DM is strict about the "one object" ruling).
e) Repeat steps c and d with long rests as needed until you have 1500 gp worth of ruby dust for each soldier that you'd like your army to have.
f) See step c)
g) Order the simulacrum to cast simulacrum, targeting you.
h) Continue ordering the latest simulacrum in the chain to cast simulacrum, always targeting you, until you run out of ruby dust.
i) Congrats, you now have an army of level 20 wizards. What if I corner the market on rubies, and overcharge you for ruby dust? Is that enough dust for the spell to work? :smallbiggrin:

This is just one chapter in my unfinished manuscript:

"How to Make More Gold Than an Ancient Gold Dragon Has in His Hoard."

Working with my publisher, TSR (Twisting Silly Rules) on the first print run. :smallcool:

[Morcleon]

What if I corner the market on rubies, and overcharge you for ruby dust? Is that enough dust for the spell to work? :smallbiggrin:

This is just one chapter in my unfinished manuscript:

"How to Make More Gold Than an Ancient Gold Dragon Has in His Hoard."

Working with my publisher, TSR (Twisting Silly Rules) on the first print run. :smallcool:

It's not "volume of ruby dust that costs 1500 gp based on standard market prices with discounts and overcharges taken into consideration", it's "volume of ruby dust that costs 1500 gp to get". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) :smalltongue:

[Easy_Lee]

It's not "volume of ruby dust that costs 1500 gp based on standard market prices with discounts and overcharges taken into consideration", it's "volume of ruby dust that costs 1500 gp to get". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) :smalltongue:

Yeah, the whole gold price thing is an extraordinarily arbitrary way to measure material requirements. D&D gods have no concept of economics.

[KorvinStarmast]

It's not "volume of ruby dust that costs 1500 gp based on standard market prices with discounts and overcharges taken into consideration", it's "volume of ruby dust that costs 1500 gp to get". (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0677.html) :smalltongue: Those are one and the same thing.
Econ 101. Supply, demand, and "what is price fixing? That's the fun behind my post.

Let me give you a RL example: Within the last two years, if I tell my son to get ten dollars worth of gas for the car, he will return with between 2.5 and 5.2 gallons, depending upon which week he went to the pump. The dollar hasn't changed that much in "value" in the past five years. (Gas has varied between $1.89 and $4.00 per gallon around here in that time period).

I am aware that gold as a currency is a game tool, not a real currency, and that gold piece 'value' on gems is a shorthand for size, clarity, and perfection that is easy to use in game to avoid going down the rat hole of gemology and carats and clarity and facets and "did your gem get cut in Neverwinter or Bladur's Gate or by Phineas the Gnome in the far mountains" ... needless detail.

[Wartex1]

Could you increase your material components by buying 10kg of ruby for 1500gp and then selling 100g of the rubies to one of your party members for the same price?

That way, you have 9900g of rubies, but 100g of rubies sold for 1500gp. What if continually sold smaller increments of ruby dust to someone for the same price, then got a refund?

[KorvinStarmast]

Could you increase your material components by buying 10kg of ruby for 1500gp and then selling 100g of the rubies to one of your party members for the same price?

That way, you have 9900g of rubies, but 100g of rubies sold for 1500gp. What if continually sold smaller increments of ruby dust to someone for the same price, then got a refund? And would the spell still work?

[Easy_Lee]

Here's one for ye charming lads out there reminiscent of Looney Toons.


Cast Friends on your target of choice. You now have advantage on social checks against that target, who now considers you a friend. Your DM may not even think to legendary resistance it.
Have your friend create a distraction. "He brought your one weakness! Quick, jump into this portal and I will ferry you to safety, friend!" Hold out your bag of holding and roll persuasion. Have a backup ready with the spell Suggestion.
Throw the bag of holding into a portable hole.

[Morcleon]

And would the spell still work?

By RAW, yes, since the spell specifies "1500 gp worth of ruby dust", not an actual volume of ruby dust. It would probably be in the best interest of spell component vendors to sell ruby and diamond dust in extremely small quantities at set prices so as to increase the total profits. I mean, if you can sell a single speck of ruby dust for 1500 gp instead of a small pile of ruby dust, why not? :smallbiggrin::smalltongue:

[KorvinStarmast]

By RAW, yes, since the spell specifies "1500 gp worth of ruby dust", not an actual volume of ruby dust. It would probably be in the best interest of spell component vendors to sell ruby and diamond dust in extremely small quantities at set prices so as to increase the total profits. I mean, if you can sell a single speck of ruby dust for 1500 gp instead of a small pile of ruby dust, why not? :smallbiggrin::smalltongue: Which was sort of my point with the original jest.
Fun, it's the point of the whole thing. :smallsmile:

[Icewraith]

Easy-bake oven:

1: Find a pattern for wall of fire that results in omnidirectional fire coverage in a 20-foot radius (several exist).
2: Delay or use portent to arrange that two spellcasters with appropriate spells act in sequence.
3: Spellcaster 1 casts Wall of Fire patern centered on a target of up to huge size (possibly Gargantuan).
4: Spellcaster 2 casts hemispheric or spherical Wall of Force and traps target.

(Note: Doesn't work on creatures with Tactical teleportation, fire immunity, or disintegrate. Using Forcecage will probably shunt out the damage from the Wall of Fire.)

[Vogonjeltz]

g) Order the simulacrum to cast simulacrum, targeting you.

Arguably there are two flaws in this:

1) the simulacrum is regarded as the same creature to an extent, and any given creature can only have one minion.
2) the simulacrum is not allowed to become more powerful, creating a minion with that power under its direct control would unquestionably increase its power, and is thus verbotten.

I'd do charm person->gaseous form->create & destroy water; although this requires a multi-class character or a Wizard with the magic initiate (create and destroy water) feat...or two characters working in concert. This setup completely annihilates an enemy starting at level 5.


Could you increase your material components by buying 10kg of ruby for 1500gp and then selling 100g of the rubies to one of your party members for the same price?

That way, you have 9900g of rubies, but 100g of rubies sold for 1500gp. What if continually sold smaller increments of ruby dust to someone for the same price, then got a refund?

No, by RAW you accepting or paying more or less than an object is actually worth, does not impact its actual worth.

"Gems, Jewelry, and Art Objects. These items retain their full value in the marketplace, and you can either trade them in for coin or use them as currency for other transactions. For exceptionally valuable treasures, the DM might require you to find a buyer in a large town or larger community first."

Given that the only way to acquire a gem is via the DM, they will simply tell you if it's valuable enough or not.

[Morcleon]

Arguably there are two flaws in this:

1) the simulacrum is regarded as the same creature to an extent, and any given creature can only have one minion.
2) the simulacrum is not allowed to become more powerful, creating a minion with that power under its direct control would unquestionably increase its power, and is thus verbotten.

1. There is no text regarding the simulacrum having anything to do with being the same creature, beyond having the same statistics (with half HP). It is also referred to as a duplicate which further implies that it is a similar but separate creature.
2. A minion is not a power boost in the same sense that gaining levels or abilities is, so would not increase its power directly. The wording specifies "The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities" which indicates that "become more powerful" is in relation to permanent statistics (so it would be able to benefit from a Ring of Protection, but it would not be able to learn proficiency in another language). If anything that could be regarded as influence would be considered an increase in power, the simulacrum would not be able to do very much at all, including picking up any object that could be beneficial at all or becoming an elected official.

Please keep poking at them and finding possible flaws though. I'd like to make sure that they're airtight. :smallsmile:

[Vogonjeltz]

1. There is no text regarding the simulacrum having anything to do with being the same creature, beyond having the same statistics (with half HP). It is also referred to as a duplicate which further implies that it is a similar but separate creature.
2. A minion is not a power boost in the same sense that gaining levels or abilities is, so would not increase its power directly. The wording specifies "The simulacrum lacks the ability to learn or become more powerful, so it never increases its level or other abilities" which indicates that "become more powerful" is in relation to permanent statistics (so it would be able to benefit from a Ring of Protection, but it would not be able to learn proficiency in another language). If anything that could be regarded as influence would be considered an increase in power, the simulacrum would not be able to do very much at all, including picking up any object that could be beneficial at all or becoming an elected official.

Please keep poking at them and finding possible flaws though. I'd like to make sure that they're airtight. :smallsmile:

It's a clear power increase (gains spell slots under its command).

[Morcleon]

It's a clear power increase (gains spell slots under its command).

None of that power is actually the simulacrum's though. It's all in the second simulacrum. Those spell slots and statistics aren't its own. The first simulacrum doesn't increase its power from the game's point of view since its statistics have not changed, save for the lost spell slot.

[Vogonjeltz]

None of that power is actually the simulacrum's though. It's all in the second simulacrum. Those spell slots and statistics aren't its own. The first simulacrum doesn't increase its power from the game's point of view since its statistics have not changed, save for the lost spell slot.

They don't have to be, the theoretical 2nd simulacrum is beholden to the 1st, it follows that the power of the 2nd augments the power of the 1st, resulting in a net increase in power (which is strictly forbidden by the spell). Therefore the simulacrum is incapable of creating a simulacrum.

[Morcleon]

They don't have to be, the theoretical 2nd simulacrum is beholden to the 1st, it follows that the power of the 2nd augments the power of the 1st, resulting in a net increase in power (which is strictly forbidden by the spell). Therefore the simulacrum is incapable of creating a simulacrum.

The 1st simulacrum isn't actually gaining any power of its own though. It's not a net increase in power, since it's trading one 7th level spell slot for the effects of a 7th level spell slot (the creation of a simulacrum of a target creature). If it was not allowed to gain nebulous power like this, it would not be able to pick up equipment nor would it be able to be accepted into a position of power.

[Naanomi]

Fun tactic probably more for NPCs: multiple characters with Sentinel and Polearm Mastery surrounding a target in a ring (at least three characters to triangulate) to keep them locked down, prisoner escort style

More practical: be flying with Sentinel (Druid air elemental form works well) and when flying types provoke you drop their speed to 0 and they fall from the sky.

[Vogonjeltz]

The 1st simulacrum isn't actually gaining any power of its own though. It's not a net increase in power, since it's trading one 7th level spell slot for the effects of a 7th level spell slot (the creation of a simulacrum of a target creature). If it was not allowed to gain nebulous power like this, it would not be able to pick up equipment nor would it be able to be accepted into a position of power.

If the simulacrum weren't under it's direct control, it wouldn't be a problem.

[Morcleon]

If the simulacrum weren't under it's direct control, it wouldn't be a problem.

It doesn't matter how direct the control is, the 2nd simulacrum does not add any power to the 1st simulacrum itself. Would you also disallow the 1st simulacrum from casting Dominate spells or intimidating people to the point of complete obedience?

[Citan]

11. Instant Elemental Nova
Requires : lvl1 Chromatic Orb (or elemental cantrip), lvlX absorb elements.
Have an ally target you with lvl1 Chromatic Orb (lvl1 only so low damage), on reaction cast a high level Absorb Elements.
Perfect for dealing with an enemy that is immune to your usual element or vulnerable to a specific another.

It's an obvious trick but can synergize well with many builds: Absorb Element is available to Druid, Ranger, Wizard (Bard) so is out-of-the-box good for Ranger, Eldritch Knight and Trickster and can benefit potentially all classes (although multiclass may become MAD such as with Warlock or Paladin).

Could also technically work all by yourself by RAW (target yourself with elemental damage) with many cantrips/spells.
Even better if ally can cast Elemental Bane on the enemy.

Examples facing fire-immune enemy.
Friend casts Chromatic Orb *Cold* on me.

Basic: Rogue Trickster lvl20: 10d6 SA (we suppose it can apply) + 4d6 Cold Damage (max spell level for pure Trickster) for (3d8/2) damage. Negligible on lvl 20. :)

Advanced: Paladin 6 / Bard 14 (for Absorb Elements among others). lvl8 Absorb Elements (reaction) + lvl 7 Branding Smite (bonus action) + Divine Smite.
Total: 8d6 cold (AE) + 7d6 radiant (BS) + 5d8 radiant (Divine Smite with 4th level slot).
NOTE: Better not miss it, good thing there is Extra Attack ^^.

[Vogonjeltz]

It doesn't matter how direct the control is, the 2nd simulacrum does not add any power to the 1st simulacrum itself. Would you also disallow the 1st simulacrum from casting Dominate spells or intimidating people to the point of complete obedience?

Being able to command troops makes a person more powerful than someone who can not. That's why a King is more powerful than a noble who is under them, they hold sway over more subjects.

Making a simulacrum definitely is more power. If it weren't, why do it? (Oh right, we're doing it because we think it's a power increasing move).

[Morcleon]

Being able to command troops makes a person more powerful than someone who can not. That's why a King is more powerful than a noble who is under them, they hold sway over more subjects.

Making a simulacrum definitely is more power. If it weren't, why do it? (Oh right, we're doing it because we think it's a power increasing move).

I asked this question on the 5e RAW thread for another viewpoint, which gave this response:

Q 522: The simulacrum spells states that the created simulacrum "lacks the ability to...become more powerful". Would picking up a weapon (increasing damage), casting simulacrum (gaining a minion), or becoming the ruler of a nation (can now order people around successfully) count as becoming more powerful?


A 522 Somewhat ironically, the literal definition of the word is something that I would put beyond the purview of RAW, as this will inevitably lead to increasingly contrived limitations. Any increase in potential energy, for instance, could be interpreted as the construct becoming more powerful. Because the PHB itself does not specify what 'becoming more powerful' means, besides the inability to regain spell slots and similar explicit restrictions, I would state that RAW procedure would be to ignore that stipulation, or establish a proper definition on a per-campaign basis.

...in which case, the simulacrum spell only works if your DM takes a non-strict reading of the spell.