[ToB] Source of Maneuver Progression

[martixy]

So me and a friend are arguing where martial's maneuver progression comes from.

He's saying it's based on Initiator level, meaning for example - 1 level warblade and 19 levels of fighter give you 11th initiator level or some-such and access to 6th level maneuvers.

Which I consider terribly silly.

I mean, the way I see it, and I think you'll agree with me - it's based on class features.
As in the maneuver progression(as in Maneuvers Known, Maneuvers Readied or Stances Known) is a class feature of the martial adepts, not a function of initiator level. Like a wizard's spellcasting progression is part of his class progression, not caster level.

Either I fail at expressing myself(with which you guys may be able to help) or he's just refusing to see the point.

He's a RAW kinda guy, so if you can point to specific passages it'd also help.

[geekintheground]

the manuvers you can pick are based on initiator level, the number you have is based on the chart.

[torrasque666]

Your friend is the most right. Page 39 of the Tome of Battle states as such:

Even when you gain levels in a class that does not grant
martial maneuvers, your understanding of the martial
disciplines still increases. A highly skilled fighter has the
basic combat training and experience needed to master
advanced maneuvers. If you are a multiclass martial adept,
and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a
martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding
together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other
classes. Look up the result on the table below to determine
the highest-level maneuvers you can take. You still have to
meet a maneuver’s prerequisite to learn it.
For example, a 7th-level crusader/5th-level swordsage
has an initiator level of 9th for determining the highestlevel
maneuvers he can take as a crusader. As a result, he
can take 5th-level crusader maneuvers. As a swordsage, his
initiator level is 8th, allowing him to take 4th-level swordsage
maneuvers.
This process applies to all of a character’s levels, whether
they are in martial adept classes or other classes.
Prestige classes work a little differently. In most cases, you
add the full prestige class level to your martial adept level to
determine your initiator level. See the prestige class descriptions
in Chapter 5 for details.


However, you select your maneuvers when you gain the level in the class that grants them. So while a Warblade 1/Fighter 19 would have an IL of 11, he'd still only have the maneuvers he selected at Warblade 1. If it was fighter 19/Warblade 1, he'd be able to select any maneuver of 6th level or below for his starting 3(provided that he meets the maneuvers known prereq)

[Ninane]

the manuvers you can pick are based on initiator level, the number you have is based on the chart.

Table 3-1 Highest Level Maneuvers Known page 39 of Tome of Battle since you requested specific passages.

E: Oooh, sniped while I was flipping through my book. :smallamused: And with the more relevant passage regarding multiclassing! Oof.

[Terazul]

Your friend is correct.

Your Initiator level is your Level in Initiating Classes (Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage) + 1/2 levels in all others. If you took 16 levels of Fighter you'd have an Initiator Level of 8. If you then took a level of Warblade your Initiator Level would be 9, and you'd qualify for picking up 5th level maneuvers with your class feature choices (assuming you meet the other prerequisites). It is explicitly designed to benefit martial characters who don't stay in a single initiator class.


Even when you gain levels in a class that does not grant martial maneuvers, your understanding of the martial disciplines still increases.
...
If you are a multiclass martial adept, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class, determine your initiator level by adding together your level in that class +1/2 your levels in all other classes. Look up the result on the table below to determine the highest level maneuvers you can take.

Emphasis mine, though it goes on to give an example of the very thing you think doesn't happen:


For example, a 7th level crusader/5th level swordsage has an initator level of 9th for determining the highest level maneuvers he can take as a crusader.
...
As a swordsage, his initiator level is 8th, allowing him to take 4th level swordsage maneuvers. This process applies to all of a character's levels, whether they are in martial adept classes or other classes.

[martixy]

Your friend is correct.

Your Initiator level is your Level in Initiating Classes (Warblade, Crusader, Swordsage) + 1/2 levels in all others. If you took 16 levels of Fighter you'd have an Initiator Level of 8. If you then took a level of Warblade your Initiator Level would be 9, and you'd qualify for picking up 5th level maneuvers with your class feature choices (assuming you meet the other prerequisites). It is explicitly designed to benefit martial characters who don't stay in a single initiator class.

Okay, miscommunication again. Yes, I get the Initiator Level as prerequisite for maneuvers of different levels.

What he's arguing is that the fighter in a Wb1/Fi19 gains a maneuvers known, maneuvers readied and stances progression(i.e. he is granted maneuvers) as a Warblade equal to his initiator level. As in at third level he is granted a new maneuver a warblade of level 2 can take.

I edited the original post to clarify what I mean by progression.

[torrasque666]

oh **** no. he's talking out of his butt.

[Terazul]

Okay, miscommunication again. Yes, I get the Initiator Level as prerequisite for maneuvers of different levels.

What he's arguing is that the fighter in a Wb1/Fi19 gains a maneuvers known, maneuvers readied and stances progression(i.e. he is granted maneuvers) as a Warblade equal to his initiator level. As in at third level he is granted a new maneuver a warblade of level 2 can take.

I edited the original post to clarify what I mean by progression.

Ahh, gotcha! Then no, you're on the ball then and he is very much incorrect. Initiator level from other classes determines what maneuvers you have access to, but it in no way gives you access to them. You still need to take a class that gains maneuvers or use the Martial Study/Stance feats to actually put that IL to use. A Warblade 1/Fighter 19 would have an initiator level of 11, but he would still only have the Maneuvers and Stances that were available to him at that 1st level of Warblade, because Fighter levels don't actually grant any maneuvers known/readied:


If you are a multiclass martial adept, and you learn a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class

If you want to learn a new maneuver, you need to take a level in a class that grants them (or take Martial Study). Your initial comparison to spellcasting (in that in the same way you can increase your caster level, but this alone doesn't grant new spells) is correct.

So yeah, the first reply to the thread sums it up pretty well: Initiator level determines what you can pick, class chart determines what you actually have.