Optimizing a Needlestorm?

[Gweed]

I have reading the Ultimate Equipment Guide II and came upon the Needlestorm (pg24). It is basically a gatling dart gun and look so fun to use.

It only has a range of 10, and it really isn't going to do much damage, but it has interesting attack properties and if you can vary the types of darts you can shoot, has the possibility of applying a poison, stun, and explosive dart all in the same round. That sounds pretty fun to me.

Any suggestions on a build that would take advantage of this beast?

[Gweed]

So this is what I came up with for a build around this weapon. I play tested it this weekend and it was fun, but I feel like it is missing something.

Character
Race: Whisper Gnome
Templates: None
Class: Fighter 1 (Sneak Attack ACF) / Rogue 5
Alignment: CN

Stats
Str: 8
Dex: 16
Con: 16
Int: 14
Wis: 10
Cha: 8

Feats
Point Blank Shot
Precise Shot
Rapid Shot
Craven

Equipment
Masterwork Needlestorm
+1 Light Mithral Chest
Ring of Protection +1
Cloak of Resistance +1
Healing Belt

The thing about the Needlestorm that makes it unique is that it doesn't require an attack roll to hit, but rather a DC25 Reflex save. The DM houseruled during play that anything that would modify my attack roll would instead modify the Reflex Save. We also houseruled that would have "100 round dart magazines" that would take a standard action to change out. So I had one with Drow Poison, one with Small Centipede Poison, etc... plus one with no poison.

Another thing I like about the Needlestorm is that is modifies the save of the poison based on how many darts hit (2d4 possible per attack) so I could get up to a +8 to the poison DC.

Unfortunately, we fought Earth Elementals (immune to sneak attack and poison) and a Juvenile Blue Dragon (never even got within 10' range) so I really didn't get to see how well this would work, but I had fun switching out "magazines" and what not.

So, how can I make this better?

[ExLibrisMortis]

That book is terrible (the needlestorm concept is cool, but the book is not). Apart from the balance/general description* , it doesn't have a table for all weapons, and it doesn't clarify whether that 10' is the range or the range increment. From the context (a bow with 110' 'range') I guess they mean increment, which is the more reasonable option, and matches the DMG's blowgun.

You can improve the range increment by taking three levels in Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone), and getting your needlestorm enchanted with the distance ability. With Cragtop Archer 3, you can make attacks at 15 range increments away, and you only take a -1 penalty per range increment, rather than -2. Distance then doubles your range increments to 20', allowing attacks up to 300' away. The Far Shot feat adds another 5' to the range increment, and there are some spells that increase it, too.

Damage-wise, you want anything that triggers once per hit. The wounding property (1 con damage per hit) would be pretty useful on selected targets, and +damage abilities like flaming, collision etcetera on anything not immune. The splitting property is nice, too. Try getting an ability modifier to damage. A one-level dip in Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures) requires three bad feats, but you get wisdom to attack and damage (you'd have to reassign your ability scores), which would boost the DC and damage quite nicely.

For special fun, try the targeteer fighter variant from Dragon #310. The Arrow Swarm ability gives you two extra attacks on a full attack, but you take a -5 penalty to attack rolls for one round. You have a base reflex save of 25, which is huge, so you're okay (and is your base attack/dex mod added to the DC?).


There are so many things wrong here, I need a paragraph. First: a DC 25 save on a 300 gp simple (!?) weapon - that's very high, and then it doesn't scale. The darts it fires deal "negligible damage (one point each)", for 2d4 points of damage on a successful attack - why is the word 'negligible' in there? That's reserved for things that deal no damage at all. You can make iterative attacks with the weapon, using attack rolls and everything, but only if you're not proficient. It doesn't mention what sort of action you normally take when firing this weapon (or how many darts you fire) - the implication is that you hit your target with 2d4 darts per round ("In competent hands, a needlestorm fires so many darts on a single round it does not need an attack roll. Rather, the target of a needlestorm attack must succeed on a Reflex save (DC 25) or be hit by 2d4 darts", but if it's like a standard blowgun, you can make iterative attacks, firing 2d4 darts each time (and an indeterminate amount of darts that don't hit, most likely 8 darts total per shot). And finally, having at least +3 armour bonus effectively gives you evasion vs. this weapon, meaning you only get hit by 1d4-1 darts on a failed save. The balance is all over the place on this one.

[Gweed]

That book is terrible (the needlestorm concept is cool, but the book is not). Apart from the balance/general description* , it doesn't have a table for all weapons, and it doesn't clarify whether that 10' is the range or the range increment. From the context (a bow with 110' 'range') I guess they mean increment, which is the more reasonable option, and matches the DMG's blowgun.

We settled on 10' being the range AND the increment.


You can improve the range increment by taking three levels in Cragtop Archer (Races of Stone), and getting your needlestorm enchanted with the distance ability. With Cragtop Archer 3, you can make attacks at 15 range increments away, and you only take a -1 penalty per range increment, rather than -2. Distance then doubles your range increments to 20', allowing attacks up to 300' away. The Far Shot feat adds another 5' to the range increment, and there are some spells that increase it, too.

Thanks, a lot of good stuff in here, I was planning on getting Far Shot, but didn't know about the rest.


Damage-wise, you want anything that triggers once per hit. The wounding property (1 con damage per hit) would be pretty useful on selected targets, and +damage abilities like flaming, collision etcetera on anything not immune. The splitting property is nice, too. Try getting an ability modifier to damage. A one-level dip in Shiba Protector (Oriental Adventures) requires three bad feats, but you get wisdom to attack and damage (you'd have to reassign your ability scores), which would boost the DC and damage quite nicely.

For special fun, try the targeteer fighter variant from Dragon #310. The Arrow Swarm ability gives you two extra attacks on a full attack, but you take a -5 penalty to attack rolls for one round. You have a base reflex save of 25, which is huge, so you're okay (and is your base attack/dex mod added to the DC?).

Yes, base attack and dex mod are added to the DC. I will look into targeteer as well! I am not really worried about anyone making the DC at this point, so taking a -5 would be fine. Also, if they are denied Dex to AC for any reason at all, they don't even get to make a save, so it might be worth looking at how to guarantee they don't have Dex to AC instead of working about the Reflex save at all.

Thanks for the post, good ideas in here!

[ExLibrisMortis]

1). If you've decided to put the maximum range at one increment, then Cragtop Archer does nothing for your build, since all the benefits it provides assume you're firing at things multiple increments away.

2). That's going to be one huge save DC. Even with the minimum of +10 base attack and a small +6 in dexterity and other bonuses, you're forcing a DC 41 save, equal to a great wyrm's breath weapon. You can essentially never miss. Maybe you should houserule it to be 10 + 1/2 base attack + dex + miscellaneous modifiers. That way, it would be roughly in line with spells, though still far easier to boost through GMW and Inspire Courage and such. If you're going down the sneak attack road, you won't even need to worry about save DCs, because you'll be denying dex to AC quite a bit.


I think you have attacks covered, what you need is other options - and since you don't need base attack, full casters are a great option. A few (well, one will do) levels in a psionic class for psionic minor creation would allow you to synthesize poisons with a craft check.

[Gweed]

What do you think about the Poisoner PRC from DM312 pg43?

It has blowgun and poison bonuses. Cool stuff like blowgun mastery, poisonous sneak attack, poison breath, poison gaze, and adds sneak attack damage

[ExLibrisMortis]

It looks okay for a pure blowgun poisoner, but only for the range increment boost. The poison touch ability is terrible. You can't use it out of combat (the poison lasts 3 rounds), you can't use it in combat (it takes 3 rounds to create poison), and both the damage and the DC are disappointing. Fast Acting II is nice, because it brings the secondary damage forward enough to make it an in-combat issue. But you're not taking 8 levels of an otherwise mediocre PrC for that.

You're better off targeting two problems with poisoners in general: the cost of poison, and monsters immune to poison (undead, constructs, plants, elementals, oozes, many outsiders and so on).

[daremetoidareyo]

I'm not sure about the rules legality of it, because I, as a DM wouldn't allow the creation of poisons by a shadowsmith without some serious parameter setting,* but you could try:

Shadowsmith 3, (ToM) allows for this:
"Shadow Craft (Su): As of 3rd level, you can create small items, such as tools or weapons, from shadow." It goes on to describe small items, no more than 2 pounds per class level, that you can pull out of a convenient nearby shadow by using an appropriate craft check. If your DM allows alchemical shadowpoisons, you can pull them out, applicate liberally by pouring into your weapons' ammunition feed, and go to town.



1* PC must create special "shadow flask" to contain shadow-alchemized poisons, either by a craft check when using the ability, or the construction of a permanent one, which would prolly cost like 250gp, and some spell use. The permanent one removes any risk of poisoning yourself, and won't break from mundane damage (high hardness and HP) the temporary one requires a second crafting role, but can be thrown like a splash vial.

2. No poisons can be shadowcrafted that you haven't "researched" except those that your character has personally encountered during his lifetime in person. Researching takes poison save DC -15 days at 8 hours apiece to research, expending 100gp per day using the craft alchemy skill, with the DC set by alchemy rules. This research produces the normal amount of the poison as if the PC had set out to make it.

3. If using the shadowcraft ability, the poison fades 10 minutes after creation. The additional poison DC can be increased by increasing the craft check by 5 for every additional +1 to the poison's resist DC. The crafting skill produces enough poison to coat a single blade 3 x class level times, or 5 times as much ammunition.
A failed craft check renders an inert substance that appears to be the shadowy poison but is unintelligible from a functional poison.

4. If using the 6th level creation enhancement class feature: For every +1 that the shadowmith can enhance a weapon with, they may instead opt to do one of two things: increase the save DC by +2, or increase the size of the poison damage die by one (d3 becomes d4, d4 becomes d6, etc.)

5. Reserve the right apply shadow conjuration %real effects (and the incumbent will save) on the poison should it be found to be crazy imbalanced, (particularly with respect to the other PCs abilities), with the understanding that all the previous success was plot-derived beginner's luck.

[Gweed]

I'm not sure about the rules legality of it, because I, as a DM wouldn't allow the creation of poisons by a shadowsmith without some serious parameter setting,* but you could try:

Shadowsmith 3, (ToM) allows for this:
"Shadow Craft (Su): As of 3rd level, you can create small items, such as tools or weapons, from shadow." It goes on to describe small items, no more than 2 pounds per class level, that you can pull out of a convenient nearby shadow by using an appropriate craft check. If your DM allows alchemical shadowpoisons, you can pull them out, applicate liberally by pouring into your weapons' ammunition feed, and go to town.



1* PC must create special "shadow flask" to contain shadow-alchemized poisons, either by a craft check when using the ability, or the construction of a permanent one, which would prolly cost like 250gp, and some spell use. The permanent one removes any risk of poisoning yourself, and won't break from mundane damage (high hardness and HP) the temporary one requires a second crafting role, but can be thrown like a splash vial.

2. No poisons can be shadowcrafted that you haven't "researched" except those that your character has personally encountered during his lifetime in person. Researching takes poison save DC -15 days at 8 hours apiece to research, expending 100gp per day using the craft alchemy skill, with the DC set by alchemy rules. This research produces the normal amount of the poison as if the PC had set out to make it.

3. If using the shadowcraft ability, the poison fades 10 minutes after creation. The additional poison DC can be increased by increasing the craft check by 5 for every additional +1 to the poison's resist DC. The crafting skill produces enough poison to coat a single blade 3 x class level times, or 5 times as much ammunition.
A failed craft check renders an inert substance that appears to be the shadowy poison but is unintelligible from a functional poison.

4. If using the 6th level creation enhancement class feature: For every +1 that the shadowmith can enhance a weapon with, they may instead opt to do one of two things: increase the save DC by +2, or increase the size of the poison damage die by one (d3 becomes d4, d4 becomes d6, etc.)

5. Reserve the right apply shadow conjuration %real effects (and the incumbent will save) on the poison should it be found to be crazy imbalanced, (particularly with respect to the other PCs abilities), with the understanding that all the previous success was plot-derived beginner's luck.



Why not just create a dart that is already poisoned? Instead of creating a poison and then having to apply it to the dart, just create the dart itself. I already have created darts and poisons both, so this fits with the character. I like your idea of having the craft enhancement add to the DC as well.

Neat idea! Thanks!

[atemu1234]

It looks okay for a pure blowgun poisoner, but only for the range increment boost. The poison touch ability is terrible. You can't use it out of combat (the poison lasts 3 rounds), you can't use it in combat (it takes 3 rounds to create poison), and both the damage and the DC are disappointing. Fast Acting II is nice, because it brings the secondary damage forward enough to make it an in-combat issue. But you're not taking 8 levels of an otherwise mediocre PrC for that.

You're better off targeting two problems with poisoners in general: the cost of poison, and monsters immune to poison (undead, constructs, plants, elementals, oozes, many outsiders and so on).

I actually stuck the PrC on an NPC once. It felt like it belonged there better than on a PC.

Quite frankly, I was making a family of assassins.

[Gweed]

So been playing this guy for a couple of weeks so far, and it has been really fun.

Here is how we worked out using the Needlestorm in combat:

DC25 Reflex save is modified by anything that would modify my attack roll (with the exception of BAB and DEX modifiers). So FEATS and Buffs work to change the save.
I apply my damage modifiers to every dart that hits and sneak attack to the first dart. This gives me the potential to do up to 8+24+56+Poison damage. (8 darts at 1 damage per dart, 4d6 SNA, and damage bonus is 7).
The way that the Needlestorm adds to the save for poison means that even lackluster poisons can now have a decent save. Up to +8 to the save per attempt.
I have added the splitting and distance enhancements to my Needlestorm, which essentially doubles damage potential each round AND doubles the increase to the poison save. It also lets me attack from 20' away instead of 10', which is nice.

This weapon is certainly exotic, but it has turned out to be really fun to use, and has become a fun conversation piece among the party.

Any further suggestions based on the rules that my DM and I have ironed out for this weapon?

BTW, lvl 8 right now: 5 Rogue/1 Fighter/2 Poisoner