Dealing with an unfair DM

[Damocles23]

So...We started playing a 5e campaign based on the world of Dark Souls. Now, I think that Dark Souls has amazing lore but the story is an utter dreck. There is very little interaction and the story is nebulous and depressing. D&D is a game of derring-do and slaying monsters, not dealing with a dying world of ill-defined origins. Now, that's just personal. Anyways, the campaign starts well but is very linear. So linear he doesn't even allow me to interact with NPCs. As in, I try to talk to them and he just goes along with scripted dialogue! He even says "There's no need to roleplay!" I played a bard so I had one minimum of social skills and I expected to use them a little. But no. He even said "Press X to talk to him" Press X...I know about immersion but this is ridiculous. Also, he never tells us how we are positioned. He always says "You are flat footed" and that's it. Not even the hint of who's at the back, who's at the front. The worst was during the final "boss" of that session. Basically, we teleported, all in a circle around the boss and if we tried to move, we'd have an attack of opportunity on the face. Again, no foreshadowing, no positioning, just...Teleported out of nowhere. Sadly, the DM in question is a friend of mine and all of my roleplaying friends go along with this. Also, he knew I was planning a campaign on my own, all of them knew and he overstepped me, but that's another story. What do you think? I think I should quit.

[Kane0]

Three options i can think of:
- shelve your roleplaying bard and play a kick-in-the-door character. Its apparently the theme of this game and you can always bring your bard into another game in a better environment
- respectably bow out of this game because it is not to your taste, come back when their campaign has wrapped up and you can run your game. You can always game in another group while you wait or work with the DM and make cameo appearances as NPCs or something
- voice your thoughts to the group, or just the DM if you wish. Try to compromise, perhaps a bit less dark souls copy/paste is necessary.

Edit: also it sounds like your friend is a young and/or inexperienced DM. You may as well ask him if he would like some help if you feel like you can, it could help everyone avoid bad situations, give you a little agency and allow him to learn good DMing habits.

[Damocles23]

Edit: also it sounds like your friend is a young and/or inexperienced DM. You may as well ask him if he would like some help if you feel like you can, it could help everyone avoid bad situations, give you a little agency and allow him to learn good DMing habits.

Sadly, he's running games for a long time. That's always his style. I voiced my complaints, well, he suggested very politely I should play his way or the highway. He has implied it. The group, sadly, is not on my side on this. I could play the most boring, straightforward damage dealer ever but it would be so boring...

[Malifice]

Personally I would quit.

This just sounds awful.

[Damocles23]

Personally I would quit.

This just sounds awful.

I really think I will. So he wouldn't have enough people and drop the campaign, though. It would be a real **** move, but then again I was planning a campaign for a long time on my own. Once I get trough some tests in college I would be free cause they were the hardest ones. He always said "No, I can't do it right now, I have other things to do, I'm not particularly interested in this game..." Then he overstepped me with this and doesn't even treat me with an ounce of respect. Again, my way or the highway...

[caden_varn]

If you aren't enjoying the campaign, leaving is not a crappy thing to do. If he is an experienced DM and has some players left he should be able to adapt the game & encounters to suit the new group. If he can't that is still not your fault. You have raised it, he has said put up with it or leave. You are not to blame if you take the option to leave. (Note - neither is he necessarily. Playstyle differences happen, different people want different things, but neither are wrong).

It is your leisure time, you are not obliged to spend hours of it on an activity you are not enjoying. Be polite, and if he is a friend he will accept this and you can continue to socialise outside the game.

The only thing in your post that sounds concerning is the one about your own campaign. If you decide to leave the game, be careful it does not come across as trying to force people to play your game, or as sour grapes for your game not going ahead. That is just likely to alienate the whole group. Walk away politely, and see if you can find a group more in tune with your play style.

[Damocles23]

I will not force anyone. True, I am resentful but I won't let this ruin any relationship. I'll be polite, explain my reasons and walk away, hoping to find someone else. I hope so, at least.

[Citan]

Hi!

You described what feels to me a very painful situation. Why "bother" to set up a role-play game if it's to play it with all current interaction limitations of videogames? Unless being a DM who really enjoys the power of making destiny for other people, I'd rather propose that everyone buys a nice MMO and play together...

Anyways, on to your question. You obviously don't enjoy the game. Then you should quit. No point in forcing yourself in a GAME, especially since DM makes no apparent effort to go your way.

Best way would be to politely refuses to continue, explaining that you understand and respect his way of DMing and others going with it, but it's just not your thing.
Considering he manages it like a videogame, he should have no pain replacing you with an NPC.

OR, if you think that he would not accept and/or that may break your friendship, just go along with his style and "suicide" yourself (force yourself in such dangerous situations he'll HAVE to kill you eventually) and take the chance to opt out. This approach has the added benefit of allowing you to have a bit of fun since you could tease your DM with your behaviour. :)

[JAL_1138]

Personally I would quit.

This just sounds awful.

Seconded. Seconded hard.

[KorvinStarmast]

The group, sadly, is not on my side on this. You're not having fun. This is a leisure activity. Suggest you have fun doing something else.

Now, if this social group is important to you, you can still hang out but there Is no reason to play if your aren't having fun.

It's whey we do this thing: to have fun.

PS: sounds like your social group has some issues, though we do only have your side of the story.

[Damocles23]

Hi!

OR, if you think that he would not accept and/or that may break your friendship, just go along with his style and "suicide" yourself (force yourself in such dangerous situations he'll HAVE to kill you eventually) and take the chance to opt out. This approach has the added benefit of allowing you to have a bit of fun since you could tease your DM with your behaviour. :)

Would you believe this? I tried to! I woke up in Nexus! We can't die permanently just like Dark Souls!

[JAL_1138]

http://romancebandits.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/MontyPythonRunAway-300x207.jpg

[Damocles23]

Wait, wait, it gets better! I'm sorry if this is turning into a rant but now I really feel the need to unwind. This guy was so anal about getting the Dark Souls feel...That he used the actual dialogue. I'm not even joking. He printed the script from the game and used it. For all the NPCS. No matter what we did, no matter what we said, only the script for the game. I mean...I wasted a Natural 20 trying to get that soldier to talk but noooooooo. We were trapped in an unskippable cutscene. Also, by using that nice excuse of the mist from Dark Souls, no one was ever sure where we where going. Even if the fog only covers boss gates...But it's very handy if you want to place a character (Mine! What are the odds!) that always, explictely said he moved at the back of the party...Only to find himself on the front! There are bad DMs, like the one that pulls out an orc wielding a bomb to blow up the castle's walls (DM of the Rings is the Best ;) and there is this.

[PoeticDwarf]

Personally I would quit.

This just sounds awful.

Yes, I'll do it too. He's not an unfair DM, he's just not creative and he's very bad in being a DM.
I think nobody likes this. So you can suggest another DM (or offer being the DM yourself). This is so railroad, so boring and in all ways THE WORST.

[JAL_1138]

Ask him what the point of playing his game is compared to playing Dark Souls and passing the controller around. Really, ask him. Point out that there isn't any difference in dialogue, script, etc. and you have no opportunity to explore or interact with the game world--less, even, since you have no visual cues or tactical positioning--compared to the pc game, so why play the tabletop version when you could just play the pc game and get literally the exact same npc interactions and more enjoyable gameplay mechanics.

Also, drink heavily until the headache stops. Actually do this step first, then sober up and do the above, then repeat this step.

[Once a Fool]

Sadly, the DM in question is a friend of mine


Then he overstepped me with this and doesn't even treat me with an ounce of respect. Again, my way or the highway...

That doesn't sound like friendship to me. Perhaps you should take this guy up on making the only actual choice he's given you, so far. Leave. Make sure to tell him why.

[ThermalSlapShot]

That doesn't sound like friendship to me. Perhaps you should take this guy up on making the only actual choice he's given you, so far. Leave. Make sure to tell him why.

Yeah this is what I'm thinking.

[mephnick]

That sucks. There's so much good you could do with a Dark Souls setting. This is not it.

[CNagy]

I hate saying this because I dislike what you've described but it comes down to this:

If the DM always plays this way and the group is fine playing this way, then you are the person who is out of place. I don't see the game you've described as fun at all, but if the majority of the group enjoys it then there isn't much you can do.

To put it in another perspective, if I were DMing a group of friends, and one friend decided that we needed to do way more combat and turn the game into something more murderhobo-friendly, I would tell him that if he can't enjoy this game as is then he needs to find a better use for his time. As another example, I don't do the whole "Player A wants to do the barwench" scenarios that sometimes crop up in groups--if someone absolutely insisted on trying to turn the tavern downtime into a dating sim (and it has happened), I shut that down and tell them that if they want to imagine that sort of thing, it's fine, but it doesn't play out at the table. Even if what you want is better roleplay, if you are sitting at a hack n' slash table then you are the one out of place.

[Easy_Lee]

You have an opportunity for one of those stories where a player dealing with a crappy DM completely wrecks the campaign. Depending on the exact situation involved, I would figure out what direction he's trying to force the game in, then derail it. Use this scale (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Henderson_Scale_of_Plot_Derailment) to determine your success; the more you know about Dark Souls lore and his style, the more likely it is to work.

Show him a taste of his own medicine, so maybe he'll learn that there are other people at the table. Then I'd quit.

This is the kind of thing you only do when the DM has it coming. This guy sounds like he has it coming.

[mephnick]

if the majority of the group enjoys it then there isn't much you can do.

Yep, you showed up to a field expecting to play soccer, but everyone else is playing baseball.

You can either play baseball without complaining or say it's not what you were expecting and go home.

This is why it's important to have an in-depth session zero. Of course that only works if the DM is open, and self-aware, about what kind of game he's running.

[Damocles23]

You have an opportunity for one of those stories where a player dealing with a crappy DM completely wrecks the campaign. Depending on the exact situation involved, I would figure out what direction he's trying to force the game in, then derail it. Use this scale (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Henderson_Scale_of_Plot_Derailment) to determine your success; the more you know about Dark Souls lore and his style, the more likely it is to work.

Show him a taste of his own medicine, so maybe he'll learn that there are other people at the table. Then I'd quit.

This is the kind of thing you only do when the DM has it coming. This guy sounds like he has it coming.

I'm tempted. So damn tempted...I'll have to think of a plan. The TPK is ut of the question because we cannot die for now at least. There's little to no interaction unless I play by the Soul series rule and anger some critical NPC...

[mephnick]

I'm tempted. So damn tempted...I'll have to think of a plan. The TPK is ut of the question because we cannot die for now at least.

You can't die in a Souls game :smallconfused:?? Or do you come back immediately with no penalty? I'm assuming there's a auto-resurrect mechanic with some kind of penalty, like in the game. You could bog down the game with constant TPK's, but that's about it I suppose. He probably wouldn't let you kill any important NPCs.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm tempted. So damn tempted...I'll have to think of a plan. The TPK is ut of the question because we cannot die for now at least. There's little to no interaction unless I play by the Soul series rule and anger some critical NPC... Go down in a blaze of glory.
Why not?
If you do this, will it screw over the other players?
If so, maybe the choice of "get with the rest of the team" or "have fun another way" are your only two choices.

Easy_Lee: As funny as your suggestion is, I have never liked, as player or as DM, the "it's all about me" act some players pull. The passive aggressive character of what you suggest is the antithesis of what RPG as a group is all about.

Years ago I got some advice: (this had to do with the work I was doing)
"If you aren't having fun, you are doing something wrong. Either, what you are doing is wrong for you, or you are doing what you are doing wrong."

I've applied that to a lot of areas of my life and it makes sense. It really makes sense in leisure activity, which includes RPGs and golf in my case. Approaching golf "wrong" made having fun that way not fun. So, I quit doing it for a few years. I later came back to the game with a better mental PoV, and voila: played better and had more fun.

[TurboGhast]

Wait, wait, it gets better! I'm sorry if this is turning into a rant but now I really feel the need to unwind. This guy was so anal about getting the Dark Souls feel...That he used the actual dialogue. I'm not even joking. He printed the script from the game and used it. For all the NPCS. No matter what we did, no matter what we said, only the script for the game. I mean...I wasted a Natural 20 trying to get that soldier to talk but noooooooo. We were trapped in an unskippable cutscene. Also, by using that nice excuse of the mist from Dark Souls, no one was ever sure where we where going. Even if the fog only covers boss gates...But it's very handy if you want to place a character (Mine! What are the odds!) that always, explictely said he moved at the back of the party...Only to find himself on the front! There are bad DMs, like the one that pulls out an orc wielding a bomb to blow up the castle's walls (DM of the Rings is the Best ;) and there is this.

Rants are fine. Sometimes you need to rant.

[Cazero]

If I recall correctly, there is around 20 NPC with dialogue in Dark Souls.
On the top of my head :
one of them is depressively doing nothing when you meet him, and when he finally decides to move his ass it is to immediatly lose the little sanity he still has and attack you on sight like any zombie
one of them is a complete psycho that murder everyone he met that is no longer useful to him for litterally no reason
one of them is a noble and helpful knight that become completely insane when he find some kind of maggot that vaguely looks like the symbol on his chestplate
one of them is a cheerful and helpful knight (again) who is eventually killed by his own daugther after becoming insane
one of them will murder the person he swore to protect after acting cowardly once despite being forgiven and all
one of them is a wise and potent wizard that eventually attacks you almost naked after magical studies, the kind of wich he done with no ill results his whole life
and almost every single one of them have an exasperating laugh after every piece of dialogue

And that's not counting the NPCs you can't talk with, many of them having the same kind of stories implied by their loot descriptions. The curse is truly bad for your sanity.

What you can do is pretty clear. If you intend to go down in a blaze of glory, you don't need a reason at all for your character to get insane and attack the party. It will truly get that Dark Souls PVP feeling to inflict them a cruel and pointless death at the worst possible moment.

[PotatoGolem]

I'll second/third/whatever the general notion that's been going around: just politely leave the group. Everyone else likes this style of game, and you don't. That's fine both ways. If you're all friends, no one should get bent out of shape just because you don't want to play a particular game with them. I have a few friends who I've tried D&D with who either don't like the game as a whole or who don't mesh with my DM style when they play or vice versa- so long as everyone is nice and mature about it, there's no need for hurt feelings. One of my best friends is also an avid D&D player, but we can't stand playing with each other. We know it, so we just don't play together, and we're still friends.

I'm going to come out really against Easy_Lee's idea, though. Everyone but you is having fun, so you'd just be the jerk who has to ruin everyone else's time because you're not having fun. That's the sort of thing that really crosses a line, especially if you guys are friends outside the game. Don't be that guy.

Tl;dr: Just quit and stay friends. Don't be a jerk to your friends just because you don't enjoy playing a game with them.

[TrollCapAmerica]

This is why you shouldn't play RPGs with folks that eat lead paint

They sound comically stupid like to the point that I refuse to believe the story. If anyone this dumb existed ypu should run a game yourself since the bar is set so low you could trip over it and do better

[KorvinStarmast]

Sadly, the DM in question is a friend of mine and all of my roleplaying friends go along with this. Also, he knew I was planning a campaign on my own, all of them knew and he overstepped me, but that's another story.
Is this really another story, or is this an added source of frustration for you? When it comes to social group things, stuff often overlaps.

Compartmentalization is a learned skill.

[Easy_Lee]

I'm going to come out really against Easy_Lee's idea, though. Everyone but you is having fun, so you'd just be the jerk who has to ruin everyone else's time because you're not having fun. That's the sort of thing that really crosses a line, especially if you guys are friends outside the game. Don't be that guy.

If everyone else is having fun, then yeah I agree, don't ruin it for them. If you're the odd man out, sometimes you just have to walk away from a thing. Derailing is for bringing fun to games where no one is having any.

[coredump]

Yeah, don't make it a big thing. You can talk to him privately, but if that works just walk away.

You can offer to DM, you can even let everyone know that if they ever get tired of that campaign you will run one. (It may be hard to tell if the other players are happy, or just going along.)

[georgie_leech]

I will acknowledge that the wise choice is to walk away from the game, as "bad gaming is worse than no gaming." That said, I kinda hope this turns out to be the next Suefiles.

[Knaight]

I'd bail. This is one of the most pathetic games I have ever heard described (stock dialog from a videogame that will never be deviated from? Really?), you're not having fun, and it's not like not being there is going to alter anything. Just say you aren't having fun, quit, and find something better to do with your time. It shouldn't be difficult.

[Safety Sword]

You have an opportunity for one of those stories where a player dealing with a crappy DM completely wrecks the campaign. Depending on the exact situation involved, I would figure out what direction he's trying to force the game in, then derail it. Use this scale (http://1d4chan.org/wiki/The_Henderson_Scale_of_Plot_Derailment) to determine your success; the more you know about Dark Souls lore and his style, the more likely it is to work.

Show him a taste of his own medicine, so maybe he'll learn that there are other people at the table. Then I'd quit.

This is the kind of thing you only do when the DM has it coming. This guy sounds like he has it coming.

That is almost the worst advice you could have given.

Starting a game of tit-for-tat with your DM is a sure way to wreck the fun of everyone at the table. Doing so in a targeted and malicious fashion is despicable.

You're much better off just being honest and voicing your concerns. If nothing changes after that then gracefully exit the game.

Edit: There's also an opportunity for you to step up and try your hand at being a better DM. Talk it over and ask if you can run a few sessions and see how they respond. You sound like you know what you want out of a game when you play, so you probably have some idea of how to do that from the other side of the screen.

[Gryndle]

I have to agree with the folks that suggest you politely bail. If the group is fine with the game as you describe, then there's no need to ruin it for them. If you aren't enjoying it, then don't ruin your time either, find something else to do or another group to game with.

I have always been a fan of Rule 0 and its corollary:
Rule 0: what the DM says goes. Rule 0.2: if the DM says enough stupid S**T, the players go too.

[Easy_Lee]

That is almost the worst advice you could have given.

Starting a game of tit-for-tat with your DM is a sure way to wreck the fun of everyone at the table. Doing so in a targeted and malicious fashion is despicable.

You're much better off just being honest and voicing your concerns. If nothing changes after that then gracefully exit the game.

Edit: There's also an opportunity for you to step up and try your hand at being a better DM. Talk it over and ask if you can run a few sessions and see how they respond. You sound like you know what you want out of a game when you play, so you probably have some idea of how to do that from the other side of the screen.

Safety Sword, as you've shown in other threads, you don't like me, and will automatically disagree with any post I make. There's no need to be aggressive, no need to try to paint me as a bad person somehow. Everyone has opinions, and if your opinion is that players should just shut up and take it no matter what the DM does, then go right ahead and have that opinion.

But my opinion is that there are several people at the table, and every one of them is important. If everyone at the table but the DM hates what's going on, then a major derailment is the correct response. If half of them like it and the other half don't, then a friendly civil war should proceed. If only one player is upset, then he should find another table; this is what I said earlier.

Being a creator myself, both a writer and a programmer, I know that the only time you actually get better is when someone criticizes you. If everyone shows the DM that they don't like what's going on, then he will get better at it. It works for all artforms; DMing is no exception.

All of the above are a lot more fun than just sitting and taking it. And that's what D&D is about, fun. If my way of having fun is not the same as your way of having fun, then you have my permission to deal with it. Art comes from adversity, and it's the tables where everyone is going in different directions, but things turn out fine anyway, that people remember. Those are a lot more memorable than just playing the tabletop version of a video game.

[Safety Sword]

Safety Sword, as you've shown in other threads, you don't like me, and will automatically disagree with any post I make. There's no need to be aggressive, no need to try to paint me as a bad person somehow. Everyone has opinions, and if your opinion is that players should just shut up and take it no matter what the DM does, then go right ahead and have that opinion.

But my opinion is that there are several people at the table, and every one of them is important. If everyone at the table but the DM hates what's going on, then a major derailment is the correct response. If half of them like it and the other half don't, then a friendly civil war should proceed. If only one player is upset, then he should find another table; this is what I said earlier.

Being a creator myself, both a writer and a programmer, I know that the only time you actually get better is when someone criticizes you. If everyone shows the DM that they don't like what's going on, then he will get better at it. It works for all artforms; DMing is no exception.

All of the above are a lot more fun than just sitting and taking it. And that's what D&D is about, fun. If my way of having fun is not the same as your way of having fun, then you have my permission to deal with it. Art comes from adversity, and it's the tables where everyone is going in different directions, but things turn out fine anyway, that people remember. Those are a lot more memorable than just playing the tabletop version of a video game.

Whether I like you or not is irrelevant. I don't automatically disagree with you, contrary to your belief. You have again misrepresented my opinion. It's a pattern. I'm getting used to it. Please explain to me what was aggressive about my post.

To the original poster:

I disagree that malicious derailment of a game is ever the correct response. I actually think it should never be a considered response. In a game that is social in nature you should never try to ruin what anyone else is trying to do. Whether your DM is good or bad they are putting their time and effort into running a game. If you don't like it, step up and take over.

You can always decide to leave the game, but sometimes taking over and having a go yourself gives you an appreciation for how hard you have to work at it to be a good DM.

[Malifice]

I wouldnt try and de-rail the game.

Id either have a chat with the dude about it, or just bail.

Why play a game that you don't enjoy?

[Talakeal]

Wow, this guy might be even worse than my DM, and that is saying something.

So, the game is on a rail and you can't talk to anyone. Is the hack and slash aspect of the game still fun? Or does the DM ruin that for you to by criticizing your tactical and build choices and force you into performing scripted actions?

[Sigreid]

Sadly, he's running games for a long time. That's always his style. I voiced my complaints, well, he suggested very politely I should play his way or the highway. He has implied it. The group, sadly, is not on my side on this. I could play the most boring, straightforward damage dealer ever but it would be so boring...

Sounds like you need to simply tell the group that you're really not having fun, wish them luck in the game, and since they are your friends suggest a non-game get together to drive home that this is about the game and not the people.

[Damocles23]

Wow, this guy might be even worse than my DM, and that is saying something.

So, the game is on a rail and you can't talk to anyone. Is the hack and slash aspect of the game still fun? Or does the DM ruin that for you to by criticizing your tactical and build choices and force you into performing scripted actions?

Nope. Like I said, he decides the positioning at random and no matter our precautions the squishier party members find themselves at the front. What are the odds! So, no, while I was tempted I have decided not to ruin the campaign for him or others. I'll politely bail out, explain my reasons and subtly imply there is something better. I'll propose myself as an alternative in the case they want to try something else and that's it. I won't deny my relationship with this DM has gone sour but there's no need to worsen it with this. Many of us know some people that are atrocious DMs or players but when not on a table they are ok guys. This is one of those situations.

[Malifice]

Nope. Like I said, he decides the positioning at random and no matter our precautions the squishier party members find themselves at the front. What are the odds! So, no, while I was tempted I have decided not to ruin the campaign for him or others. I'll politely bail out, explain my reasons and subtly imply there is something better. I'll propose myself as an alternative in the case they want to try something else and that's it. I won't deny my relationship with this DM has gone sour but there's no need to worsen it with this. Many of us know some people that are atrocious DMs or players but when not on a table they are ok guys. This is one of those situations.

Out of curiosity, is there any reason he does this?

Is there some kind of meta-plan that maybe he has and you don't know about? Like... after a few levels, you're all meant to find out that you're all really just characters in a computer game (say... some-one casts true sight... and sees nothing but endless strings of code!), and maybe the whole point of the campaign is for you guys to realize this fact, and then try and break out of your coded reality and into the real world?

[Damocles23]

Please. That would imply he has imagination.

[Malifice]

Please. That would imply he has imagination.

****ing cool idea if you could pull it off though.

I have a similar idea for a campaign where the characters find out theyre actually characters in a roleplaying game being conducted in another material plane, and all thier actions are determined by the fall of the dice. They find out the campaign is about to end with the release of a new edition of the game (and with it their entire reality), so they seek to enter the real world and stop the new edition from being created.

It ends with an epic battle at WoTC headquarters.

[Damocles23]

Oh, I wish I could play something like this!

[JAL_1138]

****ing cool idea if you could pull it off though.

I have a similar idea for a campaign where the characters find out theyre actually characters in a roleplaying game being conducted in another material plane, and all thier actions are determined by the fall of the dice. They find out the campaign is about to end with the release of a new edition of the game (and with it their entire reality), so they seek to enter the real world and stop the new edition from being created.

It ends with an epic battle at WoTC headquarters.

I always wanted to run a game wherewake up there were all sorts ofyou've got to hints that theplease wake up PCs were under some sort of WAKE influence from an aboleth UP THIS or lich ISN'T REAL and were really moldering in someplease wake up dungeon somewhere rather than adventuring.

[KorvinStarmast]

I have a similar idea for a campaign where the characters find out theyre actually characters in a roleplaying game being conducted in another material plane, and all thier actions are determined by the fall of the dice. They find out the campaign is about to end with the release of a new edition of the game (and with it their entire reality), so they seek to enter the real world and stop the new edition from being created. This sounds a bit like a short novel called Quag Keep, written by Andre Norton, nearly 40 years ago. Of course, it didn't end up at TSR headquarters, and I like your idea ... it's like breaking the fourth wall in the movie Blazing Saddles, at the end, where the barroom brawl erupted into the Hollywood studios.

[JAL_1138]

This sounds a bit like a short novel called Quag Keep, written by Andre Norton, nearly 40 years ago. Of course, it didn't end up at TSR headquarters, and I like your idea ... it's like breaking the fourth wall in the movie Blazing Saddles, at the end, where the barroom brawl erupted into the Hollywood studios.

It's also pretty much the plot of Star Ocean: Till The End of Time, IIRC, although it was executed hamhandedly in it. Decent game, not bad to mine for source material, both to see where they went wrong and to see what they got right.

[Malifice]

I always wanted to run a game wherewake up there were all sorts ofyou've got to hints that theplease wake up PCs were under some sort of WAKE influence from an aboleth UP THIS or lich ISN'T REAL and were really moldering in someplease wake up dungeon somewhere rather than adventuring.

Quoted for awesomeness.

[Damocles23]

Well, guys...I talked to him. I said as politely as possible my piece and he accepted, not without being a snide ******* about it, sure, but he accepted my point of view.The thing is, he said something that as a DM and a player made me shiver. I hope you are ready for this. Are you comfortable? Are you sitting? You may need to sit. So, I told him there were other people at the table and he should think about them. He then said, and I quote, "I'll think about other players when I'll DM for other players. I DM only for myself."

Opinions? Any?

[Kane0]

Just one.
You made the right decision in stepping out of that game.

[Once a Fool]

I'm sure that surprises no one. I'm guessing he didn't say that in front of the other players, though?

If he did, how did they respond?

[Damocles23]

Well, two other players were there but they didn't heard him. And if they heard him they didn't care which baffles me.

[Battlebooze]

Well, guys...I talked to him. I said as politely as possible my piece and he accepted, not without being a snide ******* about it, sure, but he accepted my point of view.The thing is, he said something that as a DM and a player made me shiver. I hope you are ready for this. Are you comfortable? Are you sitting? You may need to sit. So, I told him there were other people at the table and he should think about them. He then said, and I quote, "I'll think about other players when I'll DM for other players. I DM only for myself."

Opinions? Any?

So he did this?

http://i.imgur.com/fZhNk.gif

I suggest running.
Away. As fast as you can.

[Damocles23]

Yes, it did gave me that vibe. In fact, I don't think I'm ever going to play with him as DM. Ever. Actually, I'm not that partial to play with him as a player since he also argues with the DM and refuses to roleplay. Are there any good DM on Roll20? Or here? Anywhere else?

[Battlebooze]

:smallfrown: Sorry, that really sucks. It's pretty hard to deal with that kind of personality, you're probably better off not wasting your time.

I hope you can find a decent GM. If you get along with everyone else, make sure they know you're up to playing otherwise. I'd just frame the problem as a "Personality conflict" and roll with that.

[Safety Sword]

Well, guys...I talked to him. I said as politely as possible my piece and he accepted, not without being a snide ******* about it, sure, but he accepted my point of view.The thing is, he said something that as a DM and a player made me shiver. I hope you are ready for this. Are you comfortable? Are you sitting? You may need to sit. So, I told him there were other people at the table and he should think about them. He then said, and I quote, "I'll think about other players when I'll DM for other players. I DM only for myself."

Opinions? Any?

That sucks.

Just walk away and don't lower yourself or your standards.

Good luck finding a good game to play in.

[Malifice]

Next time you're in Australia look me up bro. Got room in my weekly campaign.

[Damocles23]

Thank you all for your kindness, guys. I'm glad I wasn't alone on this. I'm glad there are persons out there that know we all deserve better.

[Yagyujubei]

man i got to this parade late but I wanna just reinforce what other people have been saying. You made the right choice....that DM sounds like a total knob, and his campaign sounds like the opposite of fun, and the whole point of DnD is to have fun.

if i wanted to play darksouls i would play darksouls, not DnD. yeah it could be alot of fun to use that feel and setting in a DnD campaign, but if you strip away all the things that are unique to DnD what are you left with? also...if he's trying to emulate darksouls; a game were positioning is literally 90% of the battle, then ignoring positioning in the campaign is absurd.

good thing you got another campaign going so you can get your fix though.

EDIT: you know, if you're looking for a game to PC in my wed. night group is looking to rep a particularly bad player. It's EST though so if you're in AUS then i don't know how the timing would work for you.

[Damocles23]

Oh, I know, right? He's always trying to emulate the videogame feel with his campaign. The point is...Videogames how a lot to D&D. Yes, maybe the rules are more complicated and the action is slower but with a bit of imagination and a good dice roll, you can do anything you can do in a videogame. Perhaps even more. But like he said "I DM for myself". He doesn't want to tell a story. You know what would've been a good answer for that? Then go play solitaire because that's what you want.

[Easy_Lee]

Oh, I know, right? He's always trying to emulate the videogame feel with his campaign. The point is...Videogames how a lot to D&D. Yes, maybe the rules are more complicated and the action is slower but with a bit of imagination and a good dice roll, you can do anything you can do in a videogame. Perhaps even more. But like he said "I DM for myself". He doesn't want to tell a story. You know what would've been a good answer for that? Then go play solitaire because that's what you want.

This is a good point. Video games are essentially an advanced form of play pretend with fixed rules. Actions are limited by what the developers programmed the game to do. Unless the developers are very creative, there won't be too many things players can do that the devs didn't think of (usually, player creativity comes in the form of combining existing mechanics in unintended ways, or finding glitches; players seldom if ever create new mechanics). The main advantage of a tabletop, like D&D, is that you can make new stuff up.

This is why I have such a strong aversion to railroading DMs, or artificial limitations to player choice. The whole point of D&D is having freedom to choose any action, else one is far better off playing a video game with fixed rules, such as an MMO. It sounds like your DM missed that point, along with a few others.

[Knaight]

He then said, and I quote, "I'll think about other players when I'll DM for other players. I DM only for myself."

Opinions? Any?
I'm not exactly surprised. That he can't DM in a manner that even superficially looks semi-competent is already known, and with this gem I'd pretty much expect him to stay that way.


Yes, maybe the rules are more complicated and the action is slower but with a bit of imagination and a good dice roll, you can do anything you can do in a videogame.

Hardly. There's a lot of stuff that videogames can do that tabletop games just can't, and that's before getting into D&D specific restrictions, where it works best with a fairly narrow range of play (only certain types of fantasy, really). With that said, there's also a ton that you can do in a tabletop RPG that video games aren't even close to.

Things like heavy railroading start to erode these advantages, particularly when it's taken to the level of canned NPC dialog pulled from a video game script.