Ability scores are bull**** and I've gotten rid of them

[Blake Hannon]

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[Citan]

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Hmm, I feel it's a tad arrogant to trash so abruptly rules that have been kept for years.

I agree with you, this is not "the best" system. Many other systems work as well. However, did you think about why they chose this "2 points = 1 bonus" rule?
My first reflex when I discovered D&D was such as yours, "why bother with this complexity?"
Answer is simple: "character growth control". Having to spend two points to improve a bonus allows a more streamlined progression (especially with bounded accuracy). Obliges player to consider both starting stats and leveling choice, and makes the powerup more progressive.

Also, setting the "0" bonus to "10 stats" makes the concept easier to grasp for people, since vast majority is used to evaluations based on a 20 scale where 10 is "not good nor bad".

With that said, plain "1 stat = 1 bonus" can be as good or better. All depends on your global game balance. In a game without bounded stats or with very high level limit, it would be great.
If "inserted as is" in current D&d5 rules, it would ruin the game balance.

[Morty]

Hmm, I feel it's a tad arrogant to trash so abruptly rules that have been kept for years.


No, it just means you have enough sense to realize when they have no purpose anymore.

That said, how they interact with ability score increases is a problem, since said increases were balanced around the pointlessly intricate existing rules. It's not a problem with racial bonuses, since they come in +2s. However, it is a problem with per-level increases.

[Blake Hannon]

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[GloatingSwine]

Hmm, I feel it's a tad arrogant to trash so abruptly rules that have been kept for years.

On the other hand, a lot of things that have been kept for years have been kept because they've been kept for years. Why does D&D have ability scores in the range it does? Because it always has.


My first reflex when I discovered D&D was such as yours, "why bother with this complexity?"
Answer is simple: "character growth control". Having to spend two points to improve a bonus allows a more streamlined progression (especially with bounded accuracy). Obliges player to consider both starting stats and leveling choice, and makes the powerup more progressive.


You can do that just as easily by dropping the number and just keeping the bonus, then moderating the value of bonuses appropriately. An item which gives +1 strength is now twice as powerful.

[the_david]

They actually do have some purpose, so you might not want to get rid of them so easily. To be honest though, it's not the best part of the d20 system and some new players do get confused by them.

The purpose of ability scores:
1. You determine your light load based on your strength score, although you could adapt that table to the strength modifier.
2. In Pathfinder you die when your hit points are down to a negative amount equal to your constitution score.
3. Ability drain and damage would be far more deadly without ability scores. You could fix this by splitting the damage in half, and by ruling that -6 would kill/incapacitate them.

You could take it a step further by having the lowest ability modifier you could have be 1 instead of -5 and shifting every ability modifier up 5 points, but that would just play havoc on things like hitpoints and damage. You'd have 5 more hit points per level, and you'd do 5 more damage with melee attacks. Saves and DCs wouldn't be affected as they both increase by 5.

[Steampunkette]

Eh. There are still systems in the game, and around it, where finer grains are useful. Carrying Capacity, for example. Comparative statting between characters and classes, and deciding between two similar results by different characters.

Two characters try to grab the same magic item off a pedastal with opposed dex saves. One has a 16 dex, the other a 17. Give the item to the 17. Things of that nature. It also gives a solid roleplaying guideline for mental stats in particular that shows just how good or bad the character is at thinking, perceiving, or persuading.

A functionally 20 point scale gives a player a better idea of intelligence, for example, than a 5 point scale does.

So while it's definitely a perfectly reasonable option, especially for combat centric and RP lite games, it doesn't really add anything of particular value to more balanced or rp centric games.

[Debihuman]

In my games, ability scores and ability bonuses are one and the same. Instead of 28 or 32 point buy, you get 14 or 16 point buy. Instead of having a Strength score of 8 or 17, you just have -1 or +3.

Just play True 20. That's all you are doing anyway.

Debby

[Blake Hannon]

A functionally 20 point scale gives a player a better idea of intelligence, for example, than a 5 point scale does.

So while it's definitely a perfectly reasonable option, especially for combat centric and RP lite games, it doesn't really add anything of particular value to more balanced or rp centric games.

Not really seeing how its less conducive to RP than the default version. It just means characters will be more often tied with each other in contests of strength/wits/whatever.

I admit that it messes with things like carrying capacity, but let's be honest; how many groups actually pay attention to that?


Just play True 20. That's all you are doing anyway.

Debby

What's True 20? Is it a system of houserules?


They actually do have some purpose, so you might not want to get rid of them so easily. To be honest though, it's not the best part of the d20 system and some new players do get confused by them.

The purpose of ability scores:
1. You determine your light load based on your strength score, although you could adapt that table to the strength modifier.
2. In Pathfinder you die when your hit points are down to a negative amount equal to your constitution score.
3. Ability drain and damage would be far more deadly without ability scores. You could fix this by splitting the damage in half, and by ruling that -6 would kill/incapacitate them.

You could take it a step further by having the lowest ability modifier you could have be 1 instead of -5 and shifting every ability modifier up 5 points, but that would just play havoc on things like hitpoints and damage. You'd have 5 more hit points per level, and you'd do 5 more damage with melee attacks. Saves and DCs wouldn't be affected as they both increase by 5.

Good points, but there are easy workarounds.

For death, you can just say that characters die when their hp is at negative 10+level, or 10+con. This would have the effect of making it slightly easier to die at low levels and slightly harder at high ones, which to me makes sense anyway.

Ability damage and drain is something of a problem, I admit. Lowering the "you die" threshold to -6 or so definitely helps. On the other hand, there aren't many attacks that deal 1 point of ability damage; its usually 2 points anyway.

The "1 is the lowest" system you suggest is actually perfectly sensible, and its probably what I would do if I were creating a new system from scratch. However, as you said, houseruling it into an existing version of DnD would create more problems than it solves.

[Debihuman]

True 20 is not a homebrew. It is a fully published game system by Green Ronin using the OGL. See here: http://true20.com. You can buy the pdf for as little as $5. (follow the link (Shop d20 at the top), the cheap one is down on bottom of the page at the right) as it is even cheaper than buying from RPG.now at the moment. The revised edition is about $10. Either way you can't go wrong.

It's just a streamlined version and it works really well. It does exactly what you seem to be looking for -- use modifiers instead of abilities. I recommend you take a look. It's also very easy to convert 3.5 to True 20 so all your material is still relevant.

Debby

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: Thread closed for multiple reasons, not the least of which being the entire opening post had to be censored. If the OP can fix the problems mentioned, it can be reopened. Also, I suggest making use of the tagging function to specify the edition you are speaking of.