DM help, Celestial commander

[DarkEternal]

A friend of mine that is known for playing really strong classes that I frankly have problems handling on higher levels wants to play a summoner with the celestial commander archetype:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/rite-publishing---summoner-archetypes/celestial-commander

Now, from what I see, it's pretty damn strong, but I must be missing something that will make it seem like I can't handle it. For instance, the amount of summons it can get which will pretty much overshadow the entire party or stuff like that. The thing is, he's stubborn so I have to see if there is something I need to do to intervene with this class, or something I should houserule for it to be manageable?

[stack]

As I recall, it encourages single summons more than the master summoner, which loves to spam them. If you can handle a master summoner, then this shouldn't present any problems. If the base summoner causes issues with its summoning, then this will be worse.

[Geddy2112]

Well, you could outright ban it because it is 3rd party. It does lose out on the eidolon, which is part of the reason summoners are so strong. It is a very powerful class though, and summons throw the action economy even further in favor of the PC's.

Have a bunch of protection from good spells on the enemies, it will flat out stop the summoned creatures from touching your enemies. Dispel magic is also a pretty easy workaround, but be careful using both too often. Also, ensure there are challenges that cannot simply be overcome by summoning monsters. Last, enforce the rules and make sure the player has their crap together. No spending ten minutes deciding what to summon, or looking for the stats. Either have it, and run it smoothly or pass your turn.

[Red Fel]

A friend of mine that is known for playing really strong classes that I frankly have problems handling on higher levels wants to play a summoner with the celestial commander archetype:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/base-classes/summoner/archetypes/rite-publishing---summoner-archetypes/celestial-commander

Now, from what I see, it's pretty damn strong, but I must be missing something that will make it seem like I can't handle it. For instance, the amount of summons it can get which will pretty much overshadow the entire party or stuff like that. The thing is, he's stubborn so I have to see if there is something I need to do to intervene with this class, or something I should houserule for it to be manageable?

Minionmancy is powerful primarily because of its impact on the action economy. Summons, while often useful, aren't generally the equivalent of a character; they're often each equal to a fraction of a character, but in large numbers can still be very useful. A Celestial Commander replaces his SM spell with an SM SLA, which he can use quite a lot, and which lasts minutes per level instead of rounds per level; his class features then increase the number of summons, the ability scores of those summons, extra feats, insight bonuses, and so forth. In short, the CC takes his minions and makes them substantially more powerful, en masse, which basically turns him into a one-character party. At higher levels, aside from another spellcaster, the rest of the party can pretty much just sit back and let the CC run every combat encounter.

He may be stubborn, but you're the GM. If you don't want this class, say you don't. No half measures, don't try to come up with a fix or a nerf, that will just result in irritation and awkward rules-shuffling. There are plenty of classes to choose from, plenty of Summoner archetypes too. Celestial Commander is a third-party product, and it's not unreasonable to refuse those at your table.

You shouldn't have to come up with a justification beyond "I'm not comfortable that I can handle this at my table." Your player should be satisfied with that. It's a fair statement for a GM to make.

[Vhaidara]

That is a poorly thought out archetype. I just skimmed it, but it is actually illegal to take it. It has 2 abilities (Augment Summoning and Domains) that both replace eidolon. I believe by archetype rules that creates a dysfunction.

On the archetype itself, it looks weaker than master summoner, and less fun than base summoner (eidolon is the fun). So, it's really, really powerful.

Also, it adds miracle. That's not k.


Edit: Red, the summon monster thing is actual standard for the summoner class. The only difference in the ability is an extra 2 uses per day.

[DarkEternal]

I never really liked limiting people in what they play, as long as they knew what a class can do to a campaign. Some people understand that, but there are some that simply are immune to it. I'll make due somehow...I guess, at the very least see how it goes. Plus, another guy with a similar personality type wants to play a psion telepath which will be a whole new slew of headaches for me, but that's life...

[icefractal]

It's not necessarily a power issue (it could overshadow a low-op party, but not, for example, classes like Telepath). The biggest problem with summoning, normally, is the amount of table time consumed, and Celestial Commander is potentially less trouble in this regard, due to the lack of Eidolon and the encouragement to only summon one thing at a time.

So I'd say that if he agrees to only summon one batch in combat at a time, barring situations where it's necessary to survive, it should be fine. Also, I think the Celestial Command gets Superior Summons for free - swap that out for Evolved Summon Monster; it encourages a single strong creature instead of multiple creatures from the lower-level list.

If he's like "no, I demand to summon as many things as possible" - then, no, that's no cool, and saying otherwise is a reasonable table-rule. I've used "no more than 2.5 sets of actions per player" (including the PC itself) before and it worked pretty well.

[DarkEternal]

That's some solid advice, thanks.

[Beowulf DW]

You could try telling him to use the Unchained Summoner? It's a bit more tame.

[DarkEternal]

So, we started the game and so far, it seems that it's gonna be an okay ride...but it's first level so of course everything can happen. His Celestial eagle is wrecking encounters which makes our melee frontliner pissed. Still, he also wears medium armor and a heavy shield, both of which he is not proficient with. It gives him horrid armor check penalties and he can't hit anything, but his summons are there. Can anyone tell me if he has any problems casting like that? If he was an arcane caster, I know he would have problems, but Celestial Commanders are considered divine casters.


Unlike normal summoners, celestial commanders are divine spellcasters. In all other ways the celestial commander's spellcasting is like a normal summoner.

Bolded line does interest me though, since normal summoners can't cast in middle armor without a chance of failure. I presume the summon monster things are not affected in any way, since they are spell like abilities or something?

[stack]

The divine bit is what shuts off the ASF, so he should be fine in armor.

[Eldaran]

I'd say the class really picks up at level 3, so that's what you should be wary of. But as long as he's using the summons as intended, only two at a time, it should be fine.

[DarkEternal]

Well, the party just hit level 3...and it went as good as I thought it would be. The summoner can now get 1d3+1 summoned things. Which at level 3 means that he summons on average 3 level 1 summons. And they get a lot of the good stuff that easily hits things at this level, especially stuff like celestial eagles that have multiattack and three hits.


So...what that means, with his tactics feat and them flanking all stuff that they do well over a hundred damage at level 3 if they hit with all their attacks(which they don't. But still, they can average to 60+ easily). That...is not something I can cope with at level 3, so some serious changes will have to be made.

[Red Fel]

So...what that means, with his tactics feat and them flanking all stuff that they do well over a hundred damage at level 3 if they hit with all their attacks(which they don't. But still, they can average to 60+ easily). That...is not something I can cope with at level 3, so some serious changes will have to be made.

When you say "some serious changes," what do you mean?

I'm going to point something out, here, and it's a pretty harsh thing, so please forgive me, because it comes from a good place: Don't nerf the character.

Let me explain. You were warned coming into this that the Summoner class is powerful generally, and that this archetype would make it substantially moreso. You knew and understood this, yet chose to approve it anyway. That's your prerogative as a DM, and I respect it, as should your players.

But when you approve a concept, backpedaling is kind of rough business. Imposing nerfs because it turned out to be overwhelming - particularly when you were aware that it probably would be - is bad form. It's an unpleasant kind of DM fiat.

Now, I'm not saying you should sit there and let things continue as-is. You should talk to the player and either find a way for him to tone down his own play, or suggest that he retire the character in favor of something less overwhelming. And then, in the future, you should know your limitations, and reject character proposals that are beyond what you can handle. I know that you've said you don't like to reject characters, but doing so upfront - and having clear expectations - is generally preferable to approving something, then nerfing it mid-play when it turns out to be more than you can handle.

If you tell the player to keep this character but institute nerfs, it's bad form. You're basically saying, "I can't handle this, and rather than talk it over, I'm just going to punish you, the player, for getting me to approve something that I, the DM, can't handle." It tends to lead to hurt feelings and a sense of frustration. Clear expectations are a must in tabletop games, and changing horses mid-stream creates an environment where the player can't rely on his build, because it might get neutered partway in.

Whatever you choose to do, though, I hope it works out well, and I hope everyone learns from it.

[DarkEternal]

The thing is that even the player didn't really know how strong it would turn out in practice. He suggested the nerfs, not me. I just told him we would have to talk. Seems he will change the class that he's playing. An occultist seems like something that he might find enjoyable from what we discussed and that seems much...better than anything that he would do with the occultist, but I seriously don't get what kind of design this class is and what were they thinking.

I love the fluff of the summoner, and hell, I think the crunch might also be fun, but how would this be handled by anyone, I have no idea. Because this thing can dish out hundreds of damage and lay characters 5+ levels higher in a single round(that are not preemptively buffed casters).

[Red Fel]

The thing is that even the player didn't really know how strong it would turn out in practice. He suggested the nerfs, not me. I just told him we would have to talk. Seems he will change the class that he's playing. An occultist seems like something that he might find enjoyable from what we discussed and that seems much...better than anything that he would do with the occultist, but I seriously don't get what kind of design this class is and what were they thinking.

I love the fluff of the summoner, and hell, I think the crunch might also be fun, but how would this be handled by anyone, I have no idea. Because this thing can dish out hundreds of damage and lay characters 5+ levels higher in a single round(that are not preemptively buffed casters).

That's the nature of the action economy for you. It's why solo boss encounters are so rarely as epic as we'd like them to be; a party that takes 4+ actions to the boss' 1 action will either steamroll him, or be so weak in comparison that he will slaughter them. Similarly, any class that can summon and maintain so many minions will have a massive advantage in virtually any encounter. It's why minionmancy is so powerful, and Summoner is so often restricted or banned.

Admittedly, the Summoner is hardly alone in how powerful it is. A well-designed Wizard, for example, can render virtually any encounter inconsequential at a shockingly low level. But the Summoner makes it easy to crack the game open like an egg, at least in terms of the action economy.

It sounds like you and your player are handling this well, though.

[DarkEternal]

That's exactly the thing. At how easy it is. There were no shenanigans in the build, no loops, or working around differing wordings or digging through various splat books. This is right there, in the build that seems most natural and easy to build from. At level 3, you're more than strong enough to take level 10 encounters with a fairly good to hit ratio. You won't be able to steam roll it, but you're more than likely win it. The others you have to do stuff to come online that early and go through various stuff to be able to make such havoc on the battlefield. This is just too easy to use and abuse. But yeah, we'll see what he builds next. Hopefully it will be something I can handle.

[Vhaidara]

First, it did require digging: he's using a third party archetype. The pfsrd just makes digging easy.

Second, how would things from summon monster I be able to reliably hit things that are at level 5, much less 10? And how are they not getting one shot? They should have like 6hp. A wizard with a crossbow can kill that.

[DarkEternal]

He's got a Diehard fear on all of his summons, which gives them...a whole lot of logentivity. Sure, they limit the amount of times they can hit enemies, but it's still a lot. And really, Diehard is stupid in Pathfinder(at least from how we got it) in that in lower levels, with it you basically have more hp then your total maximum(celestial pony has I think fifteen or so hp normally, eighteen in diehard mode), and he gets bonuses from augment summoning, bonus damage for constantly smiting good and a tactical feat that basically adds 1d6 precision damage to each attack of each of those beasties.


Soooo...at level 3, with 3 birds surrounding you, the moment he summons them and they get off a full attack, they have a to hit of...I think +7. With that, each of their attacks gets an extra 1d6 on each of the attacks, meaning on good rolls, an extra 9d6 precision damage, coupled with their normal attacks, coupled with smite damage. And that...pretty much kills every damn thing.

[Vhaidara]

+7 is really low (full plate alone avoids 50% of those attacks). Also, level 5 character can easily be shredding them (18 Str Greatsword= 2d6+6, or 13 on average). 7HP before they lose full attack ability (2/3 of damage)


So, total damage if all of the attacks hit at +7 (assumes flanks) is 9d4 (avg 22.5) + 39 (flat mods) + 9d6 (avg 27.5) for an average of 88.75. But that is assuming you hit with 9 attacks, which is highly unlikely.

I do also agree that the archetype is very overpowered, because of a thing I think we missed.
These summoned creatures gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At third level and every 3 levels thereafter, this bonus increase by one, to a maximum of +7 at level 18.

Since monsters are natural attack builds, that is WAY OP. Remove that, and the monsters drop to +5 to hit and lose 18 damage on combo. I'm personally surprised we didn't catch that, since that entire ability is free.

[Eldaran]

I think you're grossly overstating the damage they can do. Unless they're fighting a bunch of commoners there's simply no way they're doing anywhere close to 100 damage, even in an ideal situation.

Also, you could play on the classes vulnerabilities. One aoe spell can clear out the whole lot of them, and if only 2/3 or 3/4 of them go down, further summons become less effective because he now has multiple instances of summon monster out. Also any bad guy knows that Protection From Good is great for keeping away those pesky adventurers, and it's extremely effective against summons.

[stack]

The attack bonus goes away if you have more than one instance of your summon's out, which encourages moderation. Take that away and the only thing encouraging not going nuts spamming summons is length of adventuring day and human decency.

[DarkEternal]

+7 is really low (full plate alone avoids 50% of those attacks). Also, level 5 character can easily be shredding them (18 Str Greatsword= 2d6+6, or 13 on average). 7HP before they lose full attack ability (2/3 of damage)


So, total damage if all of the attacks hit at +7 (assumes flanks) is 9d4 (avg 22.5) + 39 (flat mods) + 9d6 (avg 27.5) for an average of 88.75. But that is assuming you hit with 9 attacks, which is highly unlikely.

I do also agree that the archetype is very overpowered, because of a thing I think we missed.
These summoned creatures gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls. At third level and every 3 levels thereafter, this bonus increase by one, to a maximum of +7 at level 18.

Since monsters are natural attack builds, that is WAY OP. Remove that, and the monsters drop to +5 to hit and lose 18 damage on combo. I'm personally surprised we didn't catch that, since that entire ability is free.

It's true that some things have to happen for it all to connect. But take in mind this is a summon monster I spell. A first level spell which can be used to change the entire encounter from at least moderately challenging to a cakewalk immediately. With a +8 to hit, it can decimate anything that's indeed not in full plate armor at this level. The problem is, you can summon these things in the range that you have in whatever way you want. Which means they act the moment you summon them for nine attacks. Of course, the synergy from other party members comes in place here too(there's a warlord in the party that has some maneuver which gives all allies in a set range +2 to hit and damage or something like that). You are right about the luck thing, it's ridiculous.




I think you're grossly overstating the damage they can do. Unless they're fighting a bunch of commoners there's simply no way they're doing anywhere close to 100 damage, even in an ideal situation.

Also, you could play on the classes vulnerabilities. One aoe spell can clear out the whole lot of them, and if only 2/3 or 3/4 of them go down, further summons become less effective because he now has multiple instances of summon monster out. Also any bad guy knows that Protection From Good is great for keeping away those pesky adventurers, and it's extremely effective against summons.


I'm afraid not, they do that amount of damage with average to hit rolls since most stuff they are fighting at this level has at best an AC of 16. I could amp it up, but again that's the problem. I can make the encounters harder, but that will make the rest of the party suffer. As for the Protection from good, it's defintely a thing that I do, but if you use it in too many encounters it becomes stale.

[Vhaidara]

You see, now your dealing with force multipliers (the warlord). Those are normally strong, combining with summons makes them insane. I had a hard tossing +12 to hit and damage and +4HD to an army of level 1-2 warrior once (3.5 game, had an item for 1-mile inspires, double inspire for courage and greatness, then hired myself on to an army).

Again, a lot of the power is coming from that luck bonus. That ability really shouldnt be there, since it doesn't trade anything. However, this is summon monster II, not I. It is being used to get multiple creatures from a lower level list, but it is currently the highest level spell available to the party.

My advice would be to remove the ability that includes the luck bonus (the whole ability) and drop them back to 3+cha mod summons. The increase to 5 was really overkill.

Edit: also, try an earth Elemental. Not evil, so smite
Is useless, and Dr 5 removes 45 damage from that combo.

[Spore]

The whole thread is actually about power levels in a group. You can never push a fighter to be en par with a character like a divine commander. But you can certainly have the sorcerer or druid compete with him.

There are points which help you in limiting his options. It's an archetype for good players so you can give neutral (or evil) PCs morally ambiguous advantages (torturing spies in order to gain information about BBEG, burning down a house in order to create an advantageous battlefield etc.). He can't loose his alignment or he can't advance in his class anymore (and loose his powers but there is nothing RAW on being an ex-commander).

Secondly regardless of their level a 3rd level Divine Commander can be widely known as a paragon of good. This gives you the information you need for wizards and/or clerics to hand out Protection from Good potions and spells. In the higher levels, Banishment and similar spells are your friend. But it's the basic jjist:

Evil opponents suffer from Smite Evil but get access to Protection from Good. Neutral opponents dodge the Smite. Battlefield control and AoE spells (Entangle, simple aoe blasts and so on) deal with the commander's summons while the heroes have better saves and get not as affected by it.