phantasmal force and truesight

[SharkForce]

so i was just recently looking for a rule and noticed that truesight mentions it detects "visual illusions" (but makes no mention of non-visual illusions).

this made me wonder about phantasmal force. the thing you make with phantasmal force has to be something visible. however, the illusion is rooted in the creature's mind, not in a space where their eyes can see it.

which makes me wonder. is phantasmal force considered a visual illusion for the purpose of truesight? i could see it going either way. as i mentioned, it explicitly must be something visible. but it is also something that only exists in your mind.

(as an added note, this would probably also apply to phantasmal killer and weird, which would help to make those spells *marginally* less bad, along with the errata that also helps to make them suck slightly less than the original printing would suggest. but only slightly).

[burninatortrog]

All illusions exist only in the mind. I'd rule that phantasmal force is a visual illusion.

[Gwendol]

All visual impulses are created in the mind as well, so Truesight should work regardless.

[SharkForce]

not all illusions exist in the mind. other illusion spells appear to create an actual visual "thing", kinda like a hologram. there is an actual external image which things can see. phantasmal force (and phantasmal killer and weird) all exist solely in the mind of the target. if i make a silent image of a tree, everyone can see it. they all see the same tree, and there is no save against seeing the tree initially because it isn't inside their mind. not so with phantasmal force.

not saying true seeing doesn't work (RAW it most likely does), but there definitely *is* a difference between other illusions and these ones (in previous editions, this was characterized by having various types of illusions, with the "mental illusions" being called phantasms). in the case of something like a silent image, you are fooling the eyes of the person. with phantasmal force, you are fooling their mind.

[Gwendol]

Yes, of course not all illusions are the same. Some that affect the mind are seen only by those under the spell, while a "physical" illusion can be seen by all.
True seeing will work anyway.

[SouthpawSoldier]

AFB-Did 3.5's typification of illusions (figment, glammer, ___?) carry over?

I remember this leading to arguments over illusions v. Undead at my table; some illusion types are mind effecting, some actually create an image. My DM ruled mid-session that all illusions are mind-effecting, making my shadowcaster a waste of time and energy in an Undead post-apocalypse game.

[SharkForce]

AFB-Did 3.5's typification of illusions (figment, glammer, ___?) carry over?

I remember this leading to arguments over illusions v. Undead at my table; some illusion types are mind effecting, some actually create an image. My DM ruled mid-session that all illusions are mind-effecting, making my shadowcaster a waste of time and energy in an Undead post-apocalypse game.

basically, no.

i mean, there is still very obviously a difference between different kinds of illusions. but there is no subcategorization of illusion spells. by the book, they are all just illusion spells.

[Jstone0105]

There is a huge difference between non visual and visual illusions. Truesight in all games I've played has only granted the ability to see through an illusion if the illusion is location based or exists on the playing field, not when its projected into the mind. Your ability to see is not relevant in regards to the phantasms since you are tapping into the mind in the creature. That's why they automatically get a save instead of investigating or interacting with it to prove its false.

[Ashrym]

I don't let truesight see through phantasmal force because of it being in the mind instead of an external illusion.

[PoeticDwarf]

All illusions exist only in the mind. I'd rule that phantasmal force is a visual illusion.

I agree, phantasmol force is not a high level spell and you get truesight with a lv. 6 slot.

[Gurka]

Just because it's a high level spell doesn't mean it must by default be the end-all be-all counter to every possible type of magical illusion or deception. I agree that a hallucination is fundamentally different from an illusion. However, RAW I do think that it counters the spell, since the game doesn't draw a distinction between the two. I know that at my table though, it won't help. Just one of those DM calls IMO. A question of RAW vs RAI. And you never can tell if the flavor text has anything to do with RAI either.

[CNagy]

Truesight specifically calls out visible illusions, and Phantasmal Force creates an "object, creature, or other visible phenomenon." It doesn't matter that it only targets one creature--one of the senses it is affecting is sight, and sight cannot be foiled when under the effect of Truesight.

[rollingForInit]

There's nothing in the rules about different types of illusions. Personally, I would say that as long as the spell doesn't say otherwise, truesight works on it. This is especially true if it is an Illusion spell. Phantasmal Force, in this case, specifically says that it creates a visible illusion. Truesight specifically detects visible illusions. The rest is just arguing over fluff descriptions in the spell.

Now, if it were an Enchantment spell that made someone believe things are in another way ... I wouldn't allow truesight to work on that.

[ladel]

I agree, phantasmol force is not a high level spell and you get truesight with a lv. 6 slot.

:3
www .sageadvice.eu/2018/04/25/phantasmal-force-mental-prison-are-considered-visual-illusions-for-the-purpose-of-truesight/

[JackPhoenix]

:3
www .sageadvice.eu/2018/04/25/phantasmal-force-mental-prison-are-considered-visual-illusions-for-the-purpose-of-truesight/

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