Primordial vs. individual elemental languages

[WampDiesel]

So one of my groups was about to start the elemental evil supplement and I had a question about the Primordial Languages (Auran, Aquan, Ignan, Terran).

On page 123 of the PHB it says:

Some of these languages are actually families of languages with many dialects. For example, the Primordial language includes the Auran, Aquan, Ignan, and Terran dialects, one for each of the four elemental planes. Creatures that speak different dialects of the same language can communicate with one another.

Compare that to the Elemental Evil supplement, where it says on page 5 that Aarakockra get the language of "Auran"

Then later on page 9 of the same text it says that Genasi get the language of "Primordial."

I am trying to understand why WotC used different terms for the languages here. How would one run this in game, especially for the Elemental Evil module?

Can the Aarakockra communicate with all of the elemental beings in "primordial" or can they only speak to other beings that speak Auran?

Do the genasi get only their "elemental dialect" of "Primordial" (i.e. Fire Genasi can only speak Ignan) or can they speak all of the dialects freely?

Does an Aarakockra outlander ranger with favored enemy of elementals have to pick up the "primordial" language in order to be able to speak to other elemental beings or can he get by with his "Auran" dialect (which by the PHB should allow him to speak all primordial languages) and can pick up another language from his outlander background.


I am trying to relate this to the biggest difference I have witnessed in America. Once I went on a road trip to the deep south with a friend from Boston. Listening to his heavy Boston accent surrounded by deep south drawl was very funny but aside from a few minor misunderstandings both parties were able to comprehend each other quite well (sometimes I acted as a translator being from the mid-atlantic). However in this example both speakers were the same species with the same vocal cords so the sounds were made in the same manner.

My gut feeling is that each genasi gets their native "dialect" of primordial and that each "dialect" of primordial is understandable to speakers of other "dialects" but difficult. Like the difference between Brazilian Portugese and Latin American Spanish. Communication is certainly possible but it is not going to be easy.

How does the playground feel about this?

*EDIT*
Also is it too strong of an option in the Elemental Evil module to allow someone to pick up all 4 "dialects" with a language selection of "Primordial" at the beginning of the campaign?

[Flashy]

I treat primordial as the elemental equivalent of common, while Auran, Terran, Ignan and Aquan are more like racial languages. So every elemental would speak the language appropriate to their type, but only more cosmopolitan elementals speak primordial.

[DanyBallon]

In my case, Primordial doesn't exist in my world. Creatures speaks Auran, Aquan, Ignan and Terran. Primordial is just a generic word to describe the different elemental dialects.

[burninatortrog]

I am trying to understand why WotC used different terms for the languages here. How would one run this in game, especially for the Elemental Evil module?

Primordial is a language family, any creature that knows one dialect can understand all four dialects.


Can the Aarakockra communicate with all of the elemental beings in "primordial" or can they only speak to other beings that speak Auran?

You can't speak "Primordial" without using a dialect. The Aarakocra can speak Auran and can understand any Primordial dialect.


Do the genasi get only their "elemental dialect" of "Primordial" (i.e. Fire Genasi can only speak Ignan) or can they speak all of the dialects freely?

They can speak all dialects freely.


Does an Aarakockra outlander ranger with favored enemy of elementals have to pick up the "primordial" language in order to be able to speak to other elemental beings or can he get by with his "Auran" dialect (which by the PHB should allow him to speak all primordial languages) and can pick up another language from his outlander background.

Other elemental beings can understand him when he speaks Auran, and he can also understand their dialects. He doesn't need to learn Primordial unless he wants to speak the other dialects more fluently.


I am trying to relate this to the biggest difference I have witnessed in America. Once I went on a road trip to the deep south with a friend from Boston. Listening to his heavy Boston accent surrounded by deep south drawl was very funny but aside from a few minor misunderstandings both parties were able to comprehend each other quite well (sometimes I acted as a translator being from the mid-atlantic). However in this example both speakers were the same species with the same vocal cords so the sounds were made in the same manner.

This is probably a good way to handle it. I imagine it being like Chinese, wherein regional dialects are more distinct but people often know more than one.


My gut feeling is that each genasi gets their native "dialect" of primordial and that each "dialect" of primordial is understandable to speakers of other "dialects" but difficult. Like the difference between Brazilian Portugese and Latin American Spanish. Communication is certainly possible but it is not going to be easy.

This isn't RAW but it's interesting. I think it would be cool to make high-intelligence creatures better at cross-dialect communication than low-intelligence creatures.


Also is it too strong of an option in the Elemental Evil module to allow someone to pick up all 4 "dialects" with a language selection of "Primordial" at the beginning of the campaign?

It's not too strong. It's RAW.

[FatherLiir]

Think of the dialects as accents.

Take two speakers of the same language but from different parts of the world. Someone who speaks English in the Midwestern United States is going to sound different than someone who speaks English in London, England which is going to sound different from someone who speaks English in the Caribbean which is going to sound different than an English speaker in Australia, which is going to sound different than someone who speaks English in the Eastern Seaboard of the United States. Which is all going to sound different than someone who is learning English and a Second Language.

Which btw if there are any, my hat goes off to you. I've spent six and a half years learning German and meine Deutch ist sehr schleche.

[Elbeyon]

Languages are rare and hard to learn in this edition. They had to group up the elemental languages because no character (summoner) has four languages to spare.

[Naanomi]

Note that not much speaks 'primordial' to speak all four... Gensai, Kraken, and Night Hags; everything else only speaks one 'dialect'

[WampDiesel]

Note that not much speaks 'primordial' to speak all four... Gensai, Kraken, and Night Hags; everything else only speaks one 'dialect'

That is exactly what brought up the question in the first place. Why do some get all four dialects when others get only one.

If you can speak all by knowing one then why bother make the distinction.

We talked it over tonight at the first real session (besides character creation) and are playing it as such as per the DM ruling and the advice in this thread.

If you learn primordial as a language you learn it in one of the 4 major dialects. You can understand all of the dialects of primordial but any dialect that is not your own comes with slight difficulty in communication. Basically cross dialect discussions may possibly have RP effects. Beings that speak that same dialect of primordial are more inclined to be friendly because of it and beings that speak different dialects might get frustrated more quickly because communication is difficult.

Seems like a perfect middle ground to tread on this subject. Allows communication as if it was a single language as per the flavor of the rule but still gives distinction for each dialect.

[DanyBallon]

That is exactly what brought up the question in the first place. Why do some get all four dialects when others get only one.

If you can speak all by knowing one then why bother make the distinction.

We talked it over tonight at the first real session (besides character creation) and are playing it as such as per the DM ruling and the advice in this thread.

If you learn primordial as a language you learn it in one of the 4 major dialects. You can understand all of the dialects of primordial but any dialect that is not your own comes with slight difficulty in communication. Basically cross dialect discussions may possibly have RP effects. Beings that speak that same dialect of primordial are more inclined to be friendly because of it and beings that speak different dialects might get frustrated more quickly because communication is difficult.

Seems like a perfect middle ground to tread on this subject. Allows communication as if it was a single language as per the flavor of the rule but still gives distinction for each dialect.

It may be because, if I remember well (I'm away from book...), they wrote genasi as a generic race (like elves, dwarves, ...) and fire, water, air, and earth are subrace. And they wrote primordial as language for all, instead of writing the appropriate language for each subrace...

[PoeticDwarf]

So one of my groups was about to start the elemental evil supplement and I had a question about the Primordial Languages (Auran, Aquan, Ignan, Terran).

On page 123 of the PHB it says:


Compare that to the Elemental Evil supplement, where it says on page 5 that Aarakockra get the language of "Auran"

Then later on page 9 of the same text it says that Genasi get the language of "Primordial."

I am trying to understand why WotC used different terms for the languages here. How would one run this in game, especially for the Elemental Evil module?

Can the Aarakockra communicate with all of the elemental beings in "primordial" or can they only speak to other beings that speak Auran?

Do the genasi get only their "elemental dialect" of "Primordial" (i.e. Fire Genasi can only speak Ignan) or can they speak all of the dialects freely?

Does an Aarakockra outlander ranger with favored enemy of elementals have to pick up the "primordial" language in order to be able to speak to other elemental beings or can he get by with his "Auran" dialect (which by the PHB should allow him to speak all primordial languages) and can pick up another language from his outlander background.


I am trying to relate this to the biggest difference I have witnessed in America. Once I went on a road trip to the deep south with a friend from Boston. Listening to his heavy Boston accent surrounded by deep south drawl was very funny but aside from a few minor misunderstandings both parties were able to comprehend each other quite well (sometimes I acted as a translator being from the mid-atlantic). However in this example both speakers were the same species with the same vocal cords so the sounds were made in the same manner.

My gut feeling is that each genasi gets their native "dialect" of primordial and that each "dialect" of primordial is understandable to speakers of other "dialects" but difficult. Like the difference between Brazilian Portugese and Latin American Spanish. Communication is certainly possible but it is not going to be easy.

How does the playground feel about this?

*EDIT*
Also is it too strong of an option in the Elemental Evil module to allow someone to pick up all 4 "dialects" with a language selection of "Primordial" at the beginning of the campaign?

You can choose primordial, and can speak all dialects. Because if you can just learn one dialect it is UP

(note: all my characters know primordial)

[Mjolnirbear]

Why is it OP?

Sylvan: speak to all fey
Primordial: speak to all elementals
Draconic: any magic language ever!! Also all dragons, draconians, dragonborn, lizardfolk, false dragons and basically any talking lizard.
Common: speak to all pc races and then some.
Undercommon: speak to anything in the underdark.

Language is complex and difficult. Humans alone have thousands of languages in hundreds of language families. D&D vastly simplified in-game communication for all players to make things much easier. If a DM hates his players there is no worse thing he can to than try to make in-game languages and language acquisition realistic.

Dwarf: do you think you can hit those goblins without being seen?
Elf: Sure, I--
DM: the elf doesn't understand you and stares in incomprehension. Dwarf is his second language and you have a mountain dwarf accent he's never heard before.
Elf: but i learned dwarf. It's right here--
DM: yes but you've never heard this kind.
Dwarf: whaddya mean, kind? I speak dwarf! There's only one dwarf language!
DM: you are an outlander. You speak Newfie Dwarf. The Elf learned Scottish dwarf as a second language. He just hasnt encountered enough dwarf accents. Don't worry, he'll catch on in a few months...
Dwarf: ok then i ask him in Common.
DM: there is no Common. Look, you think you can go to Japan andd India and assume everyone will understand you? That's Common. So i ruled it doesnt exist in Faerun. For now try exaggerated hand gestures.
Dwarf flicks his chin and leaves. Elf is Sicilian and looks shocked. DM is confused; ironically doesnt understand hand gestures are cultural.

[DanyBallon]

Why is it OP?

Sylvan: speak to all fey
Primordial: speak to all elementals
Draconic: any magic language ever!! Also all dragons, draconians, dragonborn, lizardfolk, false dragons and basically any talking lizard.
Common: speak to all pc races and then some.
Undercommon: speak to anything in the underdark.

Language is complex and difficult. Humans alone have thousands of languages in hundreds of language families. D&D vastly simplified in-game communication for all players to make things much easier. If a DM hates his players there is no worse thing he can to than try to make in-game languages and language acquisition realistic.

Dwarf: do you think you can hit those goblins without being seen?
Elf: Sure, I--
DM: the elf doesn't understand you and stares in incomprehension. Dwarf is his second language and you have a mountain dwarf accent he's never heard before.
Elf: but i learned dwarf. It's right here--
DM: yes but you've never heard this kind.
Dwarf: whaddya mean, kind? I speak dwarf! There's only one dwarf language!
DM: you are an outlander. You speak Newfie Dwarf. The Elf learned Scottish dwarf as a second language. He just hasnt encountered enough dwarf accents. Don't worry, he'll catch on in a few months...
Dwarf: ok then i ask him in Common.
DM: there is no Common. Look, you think you can go to Japan andd India and assume everyone will understand you? That's Common. So i ruled it doesnt exist in Faerun. For now try exaggerated hand gestures.
Dwarf flicks his chin and leaves. Elf is Sicilian and looks shocked. DM is confused; ironically doesnt understand hand gestures are cultural.

Your example is great if you consider Auran, Aquan, Ignan and Terran as dialects of a same language, but I think they aren't. They are elemental languages that are related, akin to how french, spanish and italian are related. Primordial is more a group to simplify calling these languages as we can say that french, spanish, and italian are latin languages.

[Mjolnirbear]

You did not actually understand my point at all then.

Language is complex, hard to simplify into game terms and utterly confusing and chaotic even if you study language for a living. My point was not to provide an example of a dialect but that the argument itself is pointless. There is no benefit and a great deal of possible harm to be done to a game if you try to do something as pedantic as make language realistic. Game terms say primordial is mutually intelligible to all four elemental languages. There us no need to figure out why.

Because i can also tell you knowing romance languages does not allow you to understand latin.

[pwykersotz]

I rarely find it fun to overcomplicate languages. I like Primordial being a catch-all for the elemental stuff. This is only because my games don't usually have issues that hinge on language. I'm sure if I delved into the nuance of complications with trade arrangement between planes or the like, I'd prefer to go with the individual ones.

However, whatever we do we must not bring back the language "Elven Cat" and others like it. That way lies madness. :smalltongue: