Alternatives to Sacred Flame

[Strill]

Sacred Flame is the only spell in the PHB that can benefit from the Cleric's Potent Spellcasting feature. Have there been any new cleric attack cantrips released? If not, has anyone homebrewed any?

[ThermalSlapShot]

Sacred Flame is the only spell in the PHB that can benefit from the Cleric's Potent Spellcasting feature. Have there been any new cleric attack cantrips released? If not, has anyone homebrewed any?

Clerics don't really get anything from splat yet.

But if you take the ruling from the Warlock Tome subclass option and apply it to the Cleric, as in if you gain a cantrip from a class feature from another list it is considered on your class list (warlocks get to use Cha for them even if they come from a Wis base class list), you can gain poison spray and a many other nice cantrips.

Magic Stone, Shillelagh (huh... double wis mod damage unless there has been a ruling against this), Poison Spray, Produce Flame, Thorn Whip, and Frostbite come to mind.

Nature domain gives you one I think...

Note: This doesn't work with magic initiate as they don't become part of your class's spell list.

[Mechaviking]

Cannot figure out why light domain clerics didn´t get produce flame as a cantrip :D

Shillelagh as a cantrip transforms your weapon into x that allows you to use your wisdom modifier for attack or damage it doesn´t do any damage by itself :D

[Dimolyth]

It seems that WoTC avoid to give multiple choices to Potent Cantrip for clerics, maybe because they afraid to "overpower" 8th level of cleric.

By now, to get second damaging cleric cantrip, you ought to pick Death or Nature Domain... those have Divine Strike instead of Potent Cantrip feature.

[PoeticDwarf]

Sacred Flame is the only spell in the PHB that can benefit from the Cleric's Potent Spellcasting feature. Have there been any new cleric attack cantrips released? If not, has anyone homebrewed any?

What's the problem?
Like the warlock, he doesn't need another attack cantrip than eldritsch blast

[SharkForce]

sacred flame is not remotely as powerful as eldritch blast.

[ThermalSlapShot]

It seems that WoTC avoid to give multiple choices to Potent Cantrip for clerics, maybe because they afraid to "overpower" 8th level of cleric.

By now, to get second damaging cleric cantrip, you ought to pick Death or Nature Domain... those have Divine Strike instead of Potent Cantrip feature.

Huh, I though nature got potent cantrip, that sucks...




sacred flame is not remotely as powerful as eldritch blast.

Yeah, not even close.

Though Dex saves are the easiest to make the target have disadvantage with. Best way of dealing with undead (they have that weird regen) early on is to have someone knock them prone and then have the cleric Sacred Flame them. This works for other creatures as well.

I'm actually suspecting one of the next big releases to center around clerics/paladins and religion.

It really is a shame that light cleric doesn't get "produce flame" as said before... It really is the perfect light cleric cantrip and shows the versatility of light/fire.

[KorvinStarmast]

I'm actually suspecting one of the next big releases to center around clerics/paladins and religion. And hopefully, more Druid material.

Compare and contrast:
How many domains / choices for clerics?
How many circles / choices for Druids?

[SharkForce]

actually, EE had quite a bit for druids as far as spells go.

[KorvinStarmast]

actually, EE had quite a bit for druids as far as spells go. Yes, but not for domains/circles, which is what I was pointing to.

[ThermalSlapShot]

actually, EE had quite a bit for druids as far as spells go.

Yup, and it gave them exactly hat it gave other casters (sans Cleric). More spell variety.

The cleric needs some variety, though not before Barbarians, Fighters, and Rogues.

[Ace Jackson]

Yes, but not for domains/circles, which is what I was pointing to.

Arguably circle of land is consistent of different domains (grassland, forest, arctic, etc.), however I do see your point, their is a master set of attributes for all land, and the bonus spells start a while after the bonus spells of the clerical domains. I wonder if a "circle of the stars" could work, if you view the moon as representing a whole (full moon) mastery of shape shifting (ala lycanthropy), then perhaps a circle of stars druid would focus on one form and refine it, or build forms piecemeal?

Probably tons of problems with it, and off topic anyway. To the topic's point I haven't seen many homebrewed cantrips, but there are a few.
http://harbinger-of-doom.blogspot.com/2015/06/d-5e-five-new-cleric-spells.html

Beyond that, the only other thing I could say is go right on ahead and make produce flame a cleric cantrip. If you're looking for homebrew, as the OP suggested he was considering, it's not too much work. It might not flavor knowledge as well, but you could drop them a re-fluffed vicious mockery, psychic damage and such for the domain with command, suggest, and confusion.

To the points brought up before I finished this, true enough, I would also suggest that Sorcerers are chafing being only wild or only draconic. Draconic can be re-fluffed for elements (ala elemental affinity), but something more dedicated to the concept would be a plus.

[ThermalSlapShot]

Arguably circle of land is consistent of different domains (grassland, forest, arctic, etc.), however I do see your point, their is a master set of attributes for all land, and the bonus spells start a while after the bonus spells of the clerical domains. I wonder if a "circle of the stars" could work, if you view the moon as representing a whole (full moon) mastery of shape shifting (ala lycanthropy), then perhaps a circle of stars druid would focus on one form and refine it, or build forms piecemeal?

Probably tons of problems with it, and off topic anyway. To the topic's point I haven't seen many homebrewed cantrips, but there are a few.
http://harbinger-of-doom.blogspot.com/2015/06/d-5e-five-new-cleric-spells.html

Beyond that, the only other thing I could say is go right on ahead and make produce flame a cleric cantrip. If you're looking for homebrew, as the OP suggested he was considering, it's not too much work. It might not flavor knowledge as well, but you could drop them a re-fluffed vicious mockery, psychic damage and such for the domain with command, suggest, and confusion.

To the points brought up before I finished this, true enough, I would also suggest that Sorcerers are chafing being only wild or only draconic. Draconic can be re-fluffed for elements (ala elemental affinity), but something more dedicated to the concept would be a plus.

Damaging Cantrips based on Domains that grant Potent Spellcasting...

Knowledge: Vicious Mockery
Light: Produce Flame

And wow, that's the only Potent Spellcasting Domains....

Vicious Mockery may not have the damage capabilities but man is that rider one hell of an awesome effect.

[Ralanr]

What's the problem?
Like the warlock, he doesn't need another attack cantrip than eldritsch blast

Sacred flame has the annoying tendency to deal no damage on a successful dex save. In my experience (and in the experience of two of my friends) it's extremely frustrating when things like skeletons and rust monsters dodge the torrent of divine light from the sky.

More personal I guess, but I'd rather fail an attack roll than have an enemy succeed a saving throw. The ability to roll gives me some illusion of control.

[MeeposFire]

Sacred flame has the annoying tendency to deal no damage on a successful dex save. In my experience (and in the experience of two of my friends) it's extremely frustrating when things like skeletons and rust monsters dodge the torrent of divine light from the sky.

More personal I guess, but I'd rather fail an attack roll than have an enemy succeed a saving throw. The ability to roll gives me some illusion of control.

If this became a common problem you could invert the saving throw mechanic and have it be a wisdom attack against a dex defense. It does require some work though not that much.

Also produce flame is a cleric cantrip when used by a nature cleric, though sadly nature clerics do not get potent cantrip. Anybody else ever thought about letting a cleric choose which they get. A nature cleric spamming produce flame is not likely stronger really than sacred flame or getting to use shillelagh with divine strike but would allow some variety.

[Strill]

I wonder if Lance of Faith will ever get added.

[PoeticDwarf]

sacred flame is not remotely as powerful as eldritch blast.

So?
It's not about the strongest cantrip, it's about an alternative for sacred flame.
Most clerics can do many damage with their weapon attacks. A cleric doesn't need more than one attack cantrip.

[Ralanr]

So?
It's not about the strongest cantrip, it's about an alternative for sacred flame.
Most clerics can do many damage with their weapon attacks. A cleric doesn't need more than one attack cantrip.

Though a light cleric could use a little more power from the sun. Like Sunbeam or sunburst.

Maybe they should drink more SunnyD?

[SharkForce]

So?
It's not about the strongest cantrip, it's about an alternative for sacred flame.
Most clerics can do many damage with their weapon attacks. A cleric doesn't need more than one attack cantrip.

you made the observation that warlocks can do just fine with only a single cantrip as if that means the same is true for all cantrips.

my point is that the warlock is not in remotely the same scenario as the cleric. the warlock gets by just fine with eldritch blast and only eldritch blast (though it does have other options available if it *really* wants) because eldritch blast is at least twice as good as its nearest competitor when properly augmented by invocations.

it really is not remotely close to being equivalent. it is like claiming that since the fighter is fine being able to use a longbow, anyone else can be an effective melee combatant using a dart. being "restricted" (but not really) to only the most effective option by a substantial margin is not much of a drawback. being restricted to one of the least effective options *is* a drawback, and should be recognized as such.

[Ziegander]

SEARING LIGHT
Evocation cantrip
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 feet
Components: V, S, M (Holy Symbol)
Duration: Instantaneous
Focusing divine power like a ray of the sun, you project a blast of light from your open palm. Make a ranged spell attack against one creature within range. On a hit, the target takes 1d8 radiant damage. If you cast this spell outdoors while the sun is high in the sky and unobscured by clouds or fog your ranged spell attack has advantage.

This spell's damage increases by 1d8 when you reach 5th level (2d8), 11th level (3d8), and 17th level (4d8). Roll d6s for the radiant damage against constructs or inanimate objects and d10s for the radiant damage against Fiends or Undead.

There ya go. All this bickering and I'm the first person to actually homebrew an alternative.

[Naanomi]

I think Sacred Flame is fine, though I would like a 'dark' version of it that does Necrotic Damage, maybe one set to work well with Death Cleric's Domain abilities

[Strill]

I think Sacred Flame is fine, though I would like a 'dark' version of it that does Necrotic Damage, maybe one set to work well with Death Cleric's Domain abilities

That is literally what Chill Touch does. Death clerics even get Chill Touch for free.

[Naanomi]

That is literally what Chill Touch does. Death clerics even get Chill Touch for free.
Yes, what I mean is I'd like something for other evil clerics (not just Death Clerics) that isn't 'holy ball of purifying goodness'; and if it happens to also provide another option for Death Clerics then great

[Ace Jackson]

Yes, what I mean is I'd like something for other evil clerics (not just Death Clerics) that isn't 'holy ball of purifying goodness'; and if it happens to also provide another option for Death Clerics then great

Neither radiant nor necrotic are available for elemental adept, the interference with rules should be minimal if you just ask your GM to swap them.

I do have to wonder though, how exactly is radiant damage attributed 'good' whereas fire and other types, are simply 'amoral?' Most wouldn't think twice about casting a magical blue firebolt or a black firebolt, but somehow radiant damage, which is simply described as searing flesh like fire and overloading the soul with power, is always the mark of the good. Seriously, with such vague wording you could liken it to lightning striking the soul or fire burning the raw essence of something. Really the difference in my mind between necrotic and radiant is that one breaks stuff down like a hyper-accelerated erosion, the other makes stuff go out in a bonfire of sheer awe (inspiration or fear depending on which side you stand).

Guiding bolt is a streak of light surging across a battlefield meant to be seen, loud and flashy, inflict wounds is a melee spell attack, which can be used in a fight, and can be flashy, but it also seems like it might be a staple of an assassin or evil vizier as well. Get close to the target, inform them that they are in danger and you must speak away from the ears which hear. You lean in to whisper into his ear, and then he ages and dies with no one the wiser if you played your cards right and he didn't have his guards waiting outside for his immediate return.

I suppose few people would expect a streak of light as coming from an assassin either, perhaps counter agent clerics messing with other orders, but that's my take, your mileage may, and probably will, vary. Seriously, I'm trying to describe the flavor of something which can't be tasted, I fully expect a difference of opinion and have no interest in finding the "right one."

[Naanomi]

Yeah just preference really; a sneaky God of trickery or Evil God of Darkness don't seem like 'bright ball of power' should be their only basic attack choice. Not really that big of a deal except to mental imagery

[Kane0]

Take firebolt, change damage to d8s radiant, change 'lights things on fire' to 'produces 5' light around target until the end of your next turn on a hit'. Then make it a cleric cantrip.
Viola, lance of faith.

[Fralex]

Historically, clerics have never had many damaging cantrips. But it would be nice to at least have more than one, just for variety's sake. Magic stone used to be a cleric spell, although back then it did extra damage to the undead.

My question is, would it be overpowered to make Potent Spellcasting apply to all cleric spells, instead of just cantrips? Compared to the large extra damage Divine Strike grants, it looks less-useful. How do people who've played clerics feel? Does it end up working out fine the way it is?

[Strill]

Historically, clerics have never had many damaging cantrips. But it would be nice to at least have more than one, just for variety's sake. Magic stone used to be a cleric spell, although back then it did extra damage to the undead.

My question is, would it be overpowered to make Potent Spellcasting apply to all cleric spells, instead of just cantrips? Compared to the large extra damage Divine Strike grants, it looks less-useful. How do people who've played clerics feel? Does it end up working out fine the way it is?

Yes it would. It would mean that Spiritual Weapon deals 1d8 + 2x WIS per hit as a bonus action.

[rollingForInit]

Until Wizards release more Cleric cantrips, I'd totally allow a player to make up a new damaging cantrip. Considering all the other cantrips in the game, it'd be pretty easy to balance it. Base 1d10 for spell with no other effects. Base 1d8 if it has another minor effect.

[rhombism]

Historically, clerics have never had many damaging cantrips. But it would be nice to at least have more than one, just for variety's sake. Magic stone used to be a cleric spell, although back then it did extra damage to the undead.

My question is, would it be overpowered to make Potent Spellcasting apply to all cleric spells, instead of just cantrips? Compared to the large extra damage Divine Strike grants, it looks less-useful. How do people who've played clerics feel? Does it end up working out fine the way it is?

Yes, I would agree that applying the Potent bonus to all cleric spells would be too much. Guiding bold already kicks butt and as a Light Domain I get Fireball for gosh sake.

It would be nice to have something different for variety but truthfully, even with potent spellcasting, if you're standing back and doing Sacred Flame as your primary action, either you're in a long fight where it's just as good as anything, or you're out of spell slots and it's all you have left, in which case I'll still take it.

I guess to get back to the original thread thought, if I were homebrewing, I'd probably just modify Sacred Flame to be more elementally or effect-ally (if that's a word) appropriate to the PC. So i'd let you convince me that your background as a sailor gave you the Sacred ALS Challenge, or your parentage being from the frosty climes of the north gave you the Sacred Frost Tongue, all of which did the same amount of a different kind of damage with the same ignore cover bonus. Trickster clerics could have a bolt that reached a fist up from the floor and caught the target between the legs. On a crit, it pants's the victim.

[Rysto]

It would be nice to have something different for variety but truthfully, even with potent spellcasting, if you're standing back and doing Sacred Flame as your primary action, either you're in a long fight where it's just as good as anything, or you're out of spell slots and it's all you have left, in which case I'll still take it.

Personally, I'm not so much concerned with variety as I am running into something with a really good DEX save. It would be nice to have something that targeted AC as an alternative.

[R.Shackleford]

sacred flame is not remotely as powerful as eldritch blast.

I have my cleric the option of using Sacred Flame like EB... It has really made the cleric happy and it is quite cool.

[Drackolus]

Divine strike doesn't really make the melee clerics do any respectable damage - in fact, even with it, melee is barely barely ahead of sacred flame in normal damage, and dex save is generally about as accurate, all the while making you MAD. It seems clerics aren't meant to have any sort of respectable at-will options, which I think is silly. But this problem is only avoided by arcana clerics, who get to swipe two wizard cantrips and then get potent casting with them. And even then, it's not that good, but it IS a heck of a lot better than normal.

[djreynolds]

Sacred flame can be used in melee, since it does not require an attack roll. No disadvantage. That's a plus. And radiant damage is nice.

Warlock eldritch blast is awesome, but a cleric may spend more time in melee. A warlock will need something to use EB in melee.

I hear crossbow expert allows any ranged attack, spells included, to be used in melee without disadvantage. Expensive for a cleric, when he can just use sacred flame.

[8wGremlin]

Arcane Domain cleric can pick up any 2 wizard cantrips and add them to its list.
It also states that these are Cleric cantrips.
And it gives Potent.

[HoarsHalberd]

10 months ago the last post before yesterday. If the mods here care about anything besides people responding to flamebait this thread needs to be locked.