View Full Version : The Last Stand of the Beguiler

2007-04-27, 08:47 PM
Okay, here's the deal. Our gaming group has been playing a rather intense campaign that is far from over. Sadly the semester is almost over and as I am transfering to another school this coming Tuesday will be my last gaming session with the group. I want to go out with a bang so I talked with the DM and we decided that I'll turn on the group near the end of the session. My character is true neutral and is really annoyed at the rest of the party due to some recent events and would have no trouble trying to wiping them out. I don't really want to kill all of them, but one or two might work. I at least want to go out with a bang.

Our party consists of me and four other characters. The rest of the party is at either level 14 or 13. There is a Wizard/Elemental Savant, Rogue/Ranger, Monk/Tattooed Monk, and a Rogue/Shadowdancer? Do you guys have any good tactics or strategies for making this a fun battle?

My Beguiler has pretty high spell save DCs. If I get my cloaked casting my level 7 spells are DC 31 and level 6 is DC 30. The only one in the party that can consistantly make the DCs is the elemental savant who has around a +19 or 20 to his will save.

I was thinking of using Transfix to paralyze the entire party, possibly using Hold Person, Mass as well. My best chance is to get a surprise round since my initiative is only a +1. If the other four members of the party get to act before me, I don't really stand a chance. My biggest worry is the elemental savant since a single one of his spells can kill me. I have 71 hit points and my reflex save is only +9.

My tenative plan is as follows:
Spell Turning, Greater Invisibility, Displacement, Repulsion

Surprise Round:
Hold Person, Mass (Will DC 31)
Etherealness, Swift

Round One:
Transfix (Will DC 28-30)

Round Two:
Feeblemind for Elemental Savant or other spells depending on what happens.

Any ideas for making this a battle to remember?

2007-04-27, 08:51 PM
Dominate, dominate, dominate. Do you have Heighten Spell? Quicken Spell?

2007-04-27, 08:56 PM
No, I don't have either of those feats. I can always take my time dominating them after Hold Person or Transfix takes hold. I can't really dominate one person at a time: I'd die before I could get all four.

I was also thinking: True Seeing on myself then cast Mass Invisibility on the rest of the party so they can't see each other.

2007-04-27, 08:59 PM
Pre-Combat: Mirror Image beats Displacement. DIsplacement gives 50%, Mirror Image gives you a 1 in 1d4+5 max 8... you're looking at something between a 17% chance (16.66) and a 12.5% chance of being hit. Much better.

Overland Flight is also a handy spell for pre-buffing, as recent OotS strips have pointed out. Not sure if Beguilers get it, though.

See Invis if any of those rogue types run around with invisibility up to get sneak attacks.

Resist Element is a handy spell. The problem with Elemental Savant is you already know what element he's going to be chunking. So get Resist Element of that element. Problem solved. UMD it from a scroll if it isn't one Beguilers can cast.

Feeblemind will work wonders on the Elemental Savant (he gets a -4 to the save since he casts arcane spells) For the Rogue, Monk, and Ranger... Slow. Hit the whole party, but the caster is probably going to save... not that it'll do him much good when he's drooling and mindless (Int of 1) when he gets hit with Feeblemind. Slow limits them to one action per round. Either a move OR a SINGLE attack (not a full attack). Then just play keep away with Overland Flight's move, and snipe them with Save or Loose spells until they're shut down.

2007-04-27, 09:00 PM
Oh, of course, your initial tactics are golden, and I wouldn't change a thing there. When I played a beguiler, my favorite tactic was Greater Invisibility + Silence + Metamagic Rod of Silent Spell. Useless if your Wizard is smart and has glitterdust prepared at all times, though.

2007-04-27, 09:09 PM
Mirror Image might tip the party off that something is up. Perhaps Project Image would work though.

Slow would be pretty powerful, but if I can got off Hold Person or Transfix I can destroy the party at my leisure.

I don't get Overland Flight, and we are currently working our way through a castle, so flight of any kind is pretty useless. The bonus is that it is easy to get the party together in a small group!

I don't have any kind of elemental resistance, one of the downsides of playing such a specialized character. The elemental savant is my main worry, so I need to neutralize him ASAP. I plan on using swift ethearalness neutralizing his spells for the first round of combat.

I don't think the wizard has glitterdust prepared, though he just might.

I don't have any scrolls or rods, and have no way of getting them until combat is over so I only have access to spells actually on my spell list.

2007-04-27, 09:10 PM
What level are you guys at? And have you talked to your DM about this? If so, I suggest doing it, because I have a tactic that may help you out immensely.

Nevermind, you're a castle you say?

Well, my suggestion is simple:

Should your hold person fail versus the elemental savant, you can always just hit him with a zone of silence. As far as I know, every damage-based spell requires verbal components, and unless he picked up silent spell he's gonna be useless.

2007-04-27, 09:20 PM
I am level 14, and I believe the rest of the party is at level 14 save the Elemental Savant who is level 13 (item creation feats). My DM is fully behind it, so feel free to share your idea.

My plan so far is thus:

Spell Turning and See Invisibility several minutes before combat as they last 140 minutes.

Then right before combat cast Mislead, move away (round 1), cast Mirror Image, Greater and Displacement (round 2), then surprise round and combat as listed above.

2007-04-27, 09:26 PM
Well, if you're in a hostile area, tell your part you're going to go scouting and search around for some monsters that are not mindless. Diplomancy or Dominate them into helping you. Tell it(them) to be as quiet as possible and make no sound until you return, but kill anyone who steps into Room (X). After that, maneuver it into a way that will have a door open in front of it, allowing the monster a surprise round to whoever goes first. Then it's a simple matter of returning to your party and leading them to the monster(s) while telling them theres nothing there at all.

From there, I'm assuming you walk like any standard D&D party with the casters in the middle and the second tier fighter(you in this case) at the back. Feeblemind the Elemental Savant from behind. You should get a surprise round anyway, since you -know- the monster is there and have planned this.

2007-04-27, 09:28 PM
Can you get the other PCs away from the Elemental Savant? Because if you can separate them, you can either attack him or the rest of the group alone, and if you survive, bluff the heck out of whoever's left, allowing you to get the drop on them as well. You're a Beguiler, so I can only assume that your Bluff check is obscene, and Wizards aren't generally known for their Sense Motive scores. You may not be able to get past the two Rogues and the Monk that way, so you'd probably want to attack that group first.

Don't let them get close to you. Haste doesn't hurt, and Greater Invisibility is probably a good plan. As far as getting the drop on the group, Bluff is a useful tool, but only if the other players won't metagame. If your DM will go along with it, have him ask you to make die rolls--Spot or Listen checks, Knowledge: X checks, Will saves, whatever--and pass you notes detailing the "results." You've got Still and Silent Spell, so you should be able to get off some of your preparatory buffs without being noticed. During the ensuing combat, if things are going poorly for you, make them believe you're being controlled or dominated, and that you need their help. The more they want to use nonlethal means to stop you, the more they have to use suboptimal means, and the more advantage you'll have. Mess with their heads as much as you can; it'll buy you time and might yield an advantage. Make them hesitate.

When you go after the wizard, try to either do it when he's exhausted a fair number of his daily spells, or manipulate his choices of prepared spells. That's the one weakness of the Wizard, as far as I can see: they have to anticipate what they're going to run into that day, and thus can be misled--and your specialty is misleading people. Make him think that the two of you are going on a rescue mission, or need to gather information about where the other PCs have been taken--manipulate him into memorizing spells that will be of as little use in fighting you as possible. Yes, he'll still memorize several "don't leave home without 'em" spells, but the more you can limit his options, the better. Make the fact that you're a spontaneous caster your advantage.

Just a few ideas. I hope they're of help.

2007-04-27, 09:44 PM
Good ideas folks. I like the scouting and dominating a monster. I don't know if it will work, but I'll see if it's a possibility. Unfortunatly, my DM doesn't allow us to use Bluff and Diplomacy against other PC's which really sucks, but I can probably convince them that I'm being dominated if they don't metagame too much (and they probably won't).

Incidently, I also have the "False Theurgy" and "Conceal Spellcasting" skill tricks. False Theurgy can help me disguise a harmful spell as a helpful one, and Conceal Spellcasting, while useless against the rogue and ranger will be almost certain to work against the elemental savant.

| Thanks, I didn't know that. Problem solved.
\ /

2007-04-27, 09:56 PM
You can delete posts.

2007-04-28, 10:57 AM
I can probably convince them that I'm being dominated if they don't metagame too much (and they probably won't).

You are turning on the party and don't think that they will metagame? Rather niave of you I think (or maybe the party is that stupid, I have seen that too). Remember that not only is your character betraying there characters, YOU AND THE DM are betraying them. If you have issues with the group, deal with it as an adult. What you are proposing in this thread is childish.

Of course, if you are in yet another evil party, then what I said goes out the window and good killing.

2007-04-28, 11:05 AM
Meh, I don't really approve of the idea of screwing over your fellow players as a way to say goodbye, no matter what they may be like, but from an amoral standpoint, here's a few tips.

Tanglefoot Bags and Silence work very well against the low-STR caster types, and will inconvenience him to no end. Flight of your own is a vital plan, as it will negate sneak attacks entirely if you can get 40 ft. of air, so those two roguey types will be in trouble. Glitterdust is an excellent plan to counter the shadowdancers stealthery.

Bears With Lasers
2007-04-28, 11:19 AM
You want to say goodbye to a group you've had fun gaming with...

...so you're going to break some unspoken agreements and kill some of their characters (whom, I presume, they're attached to)?

That'll go over well.

2007-04-28, 11:24 AM
Really, as he's not planning on a TPK, they might have to spend a bit on ressurections, but I think the loot they'll be getting from a level 14 beguiler PC should more than make up for that.

And as it's the CHARACTER that's annoyed with the party's actions, it makes perfect sense for him to go out with some infighting. As long as they like a bit of roleplay and challenge in the game, it might well be possible to get away with minimal metagaming.

2007-04-28, 11:33 AM
Really, as he's not planning on a TPK, they might have to spend a bit on ressurections, but I think the loot they'll be getting from a level 14 beguiler PC should more than make up for that.

And as it's the CHARACTER that's annoyed with the party's actions, it makes perfect sense for him to go out with some infighting. As long as they like a bit of roleplay and challenge in the game, it might well be possible to get away with minimal metagaming.

Playing the "it's what my character would do, not me" card is not going to work. Go read the class description for Beguiler. The last thing on earth an IC Beguiler would do would be to launch an assault, on his own, against the rest of his party. But I really don't have a problem with it. Whatever works, works.

2007-04-28, 02:03 PM
Yeah, can you say "**** move" ?

2007-04-28, 06:37 PM
I don't really want to kill the party, although the entire party is evil so it would be in the range of my character. Plus, my character has gotten really mad at the party and is currently only going with them as it is the only chance he had of killing the boss. No one in our entire party trusts anyone else, so there are certainly no bonds of alligience to break. Now that the boss is dead and we are just mopping up, he would certainly take the chance if it presented itself. My Beguiler has never killed anything, and he isn't about to start now. Simply immobilizing the party and perhaps defecting to the uber-BBEG might work.

In addition, the DM is getting frustrated with the campaign, and he would probably like to see it ended too. I know at least two of the players are unhappy with their characters. Plus, the other players are really good and their characters have lots of options so the chances of me actually getting to kill even one of them, let alone all of them are really slim.

I am afraid the loot they'd get off my body would be slim pickings. I am still at level 10 WBL, but it might be enough to cover some resurrections.

2007-04-28, 06:46 PM
Actually, given the proper planning, I don't think they could take you! A flying/invisible opponent should simply confound most of them... if you get resistance to the caster's favored energy type, and Spell Turning to boot, he'll have a very hard time dealing with you (and you can disable him with feeblemind)... Glitterdust will mean that the Shadowdancer is hit with a -40 to hide he can't do anything about... basically they can't touch you, but you can hit them in various ways. So I'd be careful about it, basically.

2007-04-28, 06:54 PM
Glitterdust is a great idea. The rogue can hide VERY well, and I have a very slim change of finding him after he hides, but glitterdust would negate that. We'll see how it goes.

2007-04-28, 07:10 PM
Greater Invisibility... then Feeblemind the Elemental Savant. You can mop up at will. The rest of 'em won't even be able to FIND you, and you can take them out well before your invis wears off. Then pop off your Hold Person, Mass and Transfix. Even if they make their saves, they still won't be able to locate you.

2007-04-28, 07:24 PM
Maybe this is boring, but...entire party's evil and don't like/trust each other, and only one of them can reliably make a Will save against you? Mass Suggest they all kill each other and enjoy the show.

Cade Shadow
2007-04-28, 08:16 PM
Maybe this is boring, but...entire party's evil and don't like/trust each other, and only one of them can reliably make a Will save against you? Mass Suggest they all kill each other and enjoy the show.

Smartest thing said. I hope none of your party members read this board.

2007-04-29, 08:58 AM
I think this whole thread aims for the wrong direction. Any character can always easily kill the entire group: Take the watch at night and slip their throats. That's it. With a potion of bulls strength and a scythe can even the weakest caster do that.

You said that some people in your group mentioned that they want new characters or start again. Still, you should not just end this without talking to them.

I think you should think more about, how to make this a special battle, which will be remembered, than how to fight it effective. The moment you attack them during daytime you already decided to be ineffective.

Make sure you have a "Loose" strategy. A caster with your DCs is a real thread to the group, if he prepares himself for the battle (in terms of strategy, I know beguilers are spontaneous casters).

This whole situation is not easy. I played already several characters against my own group (curses, lycantrophy, ...). Usually the challenge is NOT to make a TPK.

If you want it to be remembered, then enlength the battle. Attack them with a surprise round and flee. Taunt them into traps. Play them using your illusions. And plan some kind of mistake, which will be your death. Talk to your DM. You could go scouting for your party to explain your superior knowlegde of the dungeon. Let your DM give you a map before the evening. Maybe ask him to add some special locations to make this whole thing more interesting.

2007-04-29, 11:38 AM
Maybe this is boring, but...entire party's evil and don't like/trust each other, and only one of them can reliably make a Will save against you? Mass Suggest they all kill each other and enjoy the show.

Actually, they might be able to argue that since they all know that listening to the suggestion "could be grieviously harmful or suicidal," because they'll all kill eachother, and therefore wriggle out of killing each other AND know that he wants them to die. However, if he made Suggestions one at a time, he'd be able to close that loophole.

And if you REALLY want to screw with them, make duplicate illusions of them and make suggestions to them as to which is which. You can watch as they stumble around, trying to figure out if the one they trust is real or an illusion, Hell, if you really tried, you could end up with five or six different fake parties, then split up the others into different parties. I'm not sure if any of that would actually work, but it's an interesting idea, at least.

Green Bean
2007-04-29, 12:09 PM
I suppose you could Dominate a party member, and have him surprise attack the Savant, while you deal with the others with hold person, etc. Then order your 'ally' to tie himself up and close his eyes, the CDG him with a scythe.

2007-04-29, 01:24 PM
I've been talking to my DM and we have come up with a few ideas. I will be tied in with the BBEG and as such the plan is basically attack party and immobilize with Transifx with a highly unlikely trigger. I then escape to inform BBEG but somehow the trigger condition is met and they meet up with me and probably kill me. I won't be killing any character, so CDG is out of the question. Not to mention, that with my lack of lethal damage, I probably wouldn't manage to kill them with a CDG anyway.

I don't think suggestion would work, but . . .Eh?'s idea was pretty good. Having the party meet three other identical parties would certainly be an interesting fight. I'll be talking with my DM more, so I'll let you know how things turn out.

2007-04-29, 03:17 PM
*shrug* If I were in such a party, if we were all evil, if my bud was leaving, if he got DM approval, if he wasn't a jerk about gloating or something, I wouldn't mind. I'd think it was a darn good prank, and laugh about it. And yes, I've lost characters I invested a lot of time in before to the stupid choices of others.

They can always be resurrected, and in any case...seriously. It's a one-time, special-event zinger, guys. In the unlikely event that any dead characters cannot be resurrected, the players can make more.

2007-04-29, 03:23 PM
Can you give them negative levels?
mass hold person and a bunch of negative levels would not kill them. it would allow the DM to take them on another campaign, steal some loot too as you flee so they are at their new wbl.

2007-04-29, 03:25 PM
I'm all for the throat-slitting. Take out those who'd be the most trouble while conscious (the wizard), then use your fancy battle plan to mop up the rest.

Fair fights are for sissies, especially when you're turning on your party.

I personally think that it's asinine, but if you want to kill 'em, do it right.

2007-04-29, 06:02 PM
Quite true, Catch. A coup de grace when you are on watch would put the wizard out quite easily, especially since he has to sleep, at some point, in order to be able to cast. It's especially easy if he's in a room at the time, cause you can kill him and then use the swift version ethereality and a five-foot step to go through the floor, then fall the rest of the way to the floor below and flee, to face the rest of the party at your leisure.

Generic PC
2007-04-29, 10:09 PM
Also, before you do the above, make sure that you use another persons weapons, then make sure that it isnt cleaned off during the night... perfect way to kill off the wizard, as well as shift the blame... then use the battle plan on the other three(four?) (Ranger/Rogue)

2007-04-29, 10:13 PM
I uh... kinda agree with Bears with Lasers. It seems this tactic might sort of sour your fun game's memory. I'd maybe be more looking for a martyr situation for your character, though you mentioned it being a sort of weird situation with them. Maybe turning on them makes the most sense for the story, but try not to burn any bridges and hope everyone has fun.

I mean, if you cheap shot wrecked my L14 character because you were quitting the game and didn't care, I might be a little miffed with you.