When is the Order going to figure out that... [SPOILER]

[mockingbyrd7]

...Xykon has to live through the battle?

Assuming they all know what each other's prophecies were, they all know that Xykon will go to Girard's Gate. (Be within 1000 feet of it, according to the answer to Roy's prophecy.) Since they're fighting Xykon at Azure City, one must come to the logical conclusion that, unless the future can be changed or rewritten, Xykon will either win or retreat, because someday he'll be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate.

Do you think they'll figure it out? If so, who will figure it out? Discuss!

[jindra34]

...Xykon has to live through the battle?

Assuming they all know what each other's prophecies were, they all know that Xykon will go to Girard's Gate. (Be within 1000 feet of it, according to the answer to Roy's prophecy.) Since they're fighting Xykon at Azure City, one must come to the logical conclusion that, unless the future can be changed or rewritten, Xykon will either win or retreat, because someday he'll be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate.

Do you think they'll figure it out? If so, who will figure it out? Discuss!

No his propecy states that IF Xykon were to come near one of those gates Girard's or the other gate he would be at Girard's gate first... the if statement makes the difference... that said i believe Xykon will live to go on to the next gate...

[GooeyChewie]

As I recall, the Kobold cast a spell on them to make them forget everything that happened, except the answers to their questions. Thus, they should not remember each other's questions.

[Geilan]

And since the person who asked the question is dead.....

[Icewalker]

No, they do know the answers to each others question. As they leave the memory section, Roy says "so we have our answer, Xykon is heading to Girard's gate next" or something along those lines.

[Fanatic-Templar]

I should also point out that Roy knew the answer to Durkon's question.

[Bilgore]

No, they do know the answers to each others question. As they leave the memory section, Roy says "so we have our answer, Xykon is heading to Girard's gate next" or something along those lines.

Ah, but that was Roy's question.

Now, when will V's familiar get the ginkgo biloba?

[The Extinguisher]

I don't see Xykon heading for Girard's Gate, or at least being a major character in that arc.

Why? Because they have Haley's father's captor (I forgot his name >_>) to deal with on the Western Continient, and adding Xykon will just complicate things.

[Jawajoey]

No his propecy states that IF Xykon were to come near one of those gates Girard's or the other gate he would be at Girard's gate first... the if statement makes the difference... that said i believe Xykon will live to go on to the next gate...

While you're technically correct, "if" was indeed a condition of the question, the answer doesn't make sense if Xykon won't ever be going to either of them. If he wasn't going to end up at either, then Girard's gate would not be a correct answer. And even if his dead-dead bones constitutes "the lich sorcerer commonly known as Xykon" in the eyes of the oracle, why would ANYone transport his bones anywhere. Can you even kill a lich with their skeleton intact?

So Xykon is definitely going to survive, one way or another, even if it means via phylactery.



But, even if the Order realizes this, what conclusions should they draw? How should that effect their actions? What are they going to do, NOT fight him? Don't bother trying to stop him, because he's going to win anyways? That's not a good idea. Nobody likes self-fulfilling prophecies, so why should they even bother deducing that Xykon will see surely another day? They have to do their best to stop him, regardless.

[Gaelbert]

Wait, so Xykon is alive? j/k:smallbiggrin:

[Finwe]

While you're technically correct, "if" was indeed a condition of the question, the answer doesn't make sense if Xykon won't ever be going to either of them. If he wasn't going to end up at either, then Girard's gate would not be a correct answer. And even if his dead-dead bones constitutes "the lich sorcerer commonly known as Xykon" in the eyes of the oracle, why would ANYone transport his bones anywhere. Can you even kill a lich with their skeleton intact?

So Xykon is definitely going to survive, one way or another, even if it means via phylactery.


No, he was correct. Roy question was as thus: "If ... Xykon will ever be, at some future point in time, within 1000 feet..."

The oracle's answer does not in any way confirm that Xykon will be near either of the other two gates, only that if he is, it will be Girard's gate first. The oracle has not told the future, but given a condition that will be fulfilled if certain events happen to take place.

[Jawajoey]

No, he was correct. Roy question was as thus: "If ... Xykon will ever be, at some future point in time, within 1000 feet..."

The oracle's answer does not in any way confirm that Xykon will be near either of the other two gates, only that if he is, it will be Girard's gate first. The oracle has not told the future, but given a condition that will be fulfilled if certain events happen to take place.

...It's the future...events simply take place. It's pretty demeaning for an oracle to not be able to sort out possible futures.

[Sandrock]

Okay...lets say the power of the Oracle is as high as you can make it. That means that each of the things he said will have to come true at one point or an other.

Now...say the Oracle power is limited...and he can say "ya it will rain on June 19". What if...all the water in the world vanished June 19 because of some event ether the Oracle could not see or didn't look deep into. no water = no rain. So his answer could have happened but it was changed by someone.

But this is a comic, not a DnD Game so if the Oracle was to be super powerful but the maker of this comic they will happen. If the Oracle is weak then it cant really be called a plot hole...but the Oracle was not made to be right 100% of the time. [that can be a good excuse if Gaint goofs up ^_^]

[BardicLasher]

All oracles in fiction are either 100% true or 100% false! (Alternatively, they may be true once and false every other time)

[Glome]

Well assuming that the Oracle in infallible in his predictions, it also means that Xykon's plans will be stopped at AC so he will be forced to go to another gate. So really the Order of the Stick still need to fight to stop Xykon even if they assume that the oracle is correct and he won't be killed in AC.

I don't think the information will come into play until after the battle when they try to figure out how to find Xykon who has escaped, and then they can use the information to meet him at Girard's gate.

On a side note, I wonder what excuse Xykon's team has for not unleashing the MITD on Azure City. Since winning this battle would mean ruling the world, I can't imagine what they would saving him for at this point. It would be like purposefully handicapping yourself so you lose the battle.

[jindra34]

...It's the future...events simply take place. It's pretty demeaning for an oracle to not be able to sort out possible futures.

Might I also remind you how hard the oracle pressed Roy to change the question... that suggests that the oracle might know something that would make Roy's question utterly irrelavant...

[Pyrian]

On a side note, I wonder what excuse Xykon's team has for not unleashing the MITD on Azure City. Since winning this battle would mean ruling the world, I can't imagine what they would saving him for at this point. It would be like purposefully handicapping yourself so you lose the battle.

You've got things backwards, here. MitD is so incredibly stupid that they unleash him only for those battles which they want to look like they're fighting while actually losing. Thus, Xykon had MitD guard Miko so that Miko would get away. If Xykon actually wants to win the battle, then on no account should MitD be involved!

[DreadSpoon]

What if...all the water in the world vanished June 19 because of some event ether the Oracle could not see or didn't look deep into. no water = no rain.

This is not how Oracles work in classical literature or most modern fantasy literature. In almost every fiction, a prophecy is always true, unless it has a conditional. If the Oracle says it will rain on June 19th, and he did not give any conditions, then it is 100% safe to assume that it will rain on June 19th.

While some stories and myths do break the mold, OotS hasn't been very mold-breaking yet. The majority of its humor comes from rigidly adhering to stock fantasy D&D.

[CardinalFang]

I've done a lot of professional proofreading, and, semantically, just because Roy said "if" does NOT mean the answer is only a possibility. That is NOT how "if" works. If Xykon never goes to any other gate, the correct answer would have been "neither." If I say to the Oracle "if I were to win the lottery, what should I buy?" THEN that's a conditional question. But "if Xykon is ever within 1000 feet of the two gates, which one will he be near first?" is not the same, because the answer itself is part of the question, in a way. What Roy REALLY did was fit two questions into one: "Will Xykon be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate before he is within 1000 feet of Kraagor's Gate?" and "Will Xykon be within 1000 feet of Kraagor's Gate before he is within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate?" Implicit in the answers to those two questions is the knowledge of whether Xykon will be near either: if the first question gets a Yes, then Xykon is near Girard's first, and either Kraagor's after that, or never. If the second question gets a Yes, then it's the other way around. If they both get a No, then Xykon will not visit either of them. This is more the equivalent of asking "WHEN I win the lottery, what should I buy?" because you're getting two questions in one: if the Oracle says "buy a giant television," then you KNOW you will win the lottery. If the Oracle cannot answer the question, then you KNOW that you will NOT win the lottery. Just because the question contains the word "if" does not mean that it's a mere possibility.

To make more sense of the rambling, here are the Oracle's logical steps in answering Roy's question, in some pseudocode:

if(timeOf(distance(Xykon, Girard's Gate) == 1000 feet) < timeOf(distance(Xykon, Kraagor's Gate) == 1000 feet)))
then answer("Girard's Gate");else if(timeOf(distance(Xykon, Kraagor's Gate) == 100 feet) < timeOf(distance(Xykon, Girard's Gate) == 1000 feet)))
then answer("Kraagor's Gate");else answer("Neither");

[Finwe]

I've done a lot of professional proofreading, and, semantically, just because Roy said "if" does NOT mean the answer is only a possibility. That is NOT how "if" works. If Xykon never goes to any other gate, the correct answer would have been "neither." If I say to the Oracle "if I were to win the lottery, what should I buy?" THEN that's a conditional question. But "if Xykon is ever within 1000 feet of the two gates, which one will he be near first?" is not the same, because the answer itself is part of the question, in a way. What Roy REALLY did was fit two questions into one: "Will Xykon be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate before he is within 1000 feet of Kraagor's Gate?" and "Will Xykon be within 1000 feet of Kraagor's Gate before he is within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate?" Implicit in the answers to those two questions is the knowledge of whether Xykon will be near either: if the first question gets a Yes, then Xykon is near Girard's first, and either Kraagor's after that, or never. If the second question gets a Yes, then it's the other way around. If they both get a No, then Xykon will not visit either of them. This is more the equivalent of asking "WHEN I win the lottery, what should I buy?" because you're getting two questions in one: if the Oracle says "buy a giant television," then you KNOW you will win the lottery. If the Oracle cannot answer the question, then you KNOW that you will NOT win the lottery. Just because the question contains the word "if" does not mean that it's a mere possibility.

To make more sense of the rambling, here are the Oracle's logical steps in answering Roy's question, in some pseudocode:

if(timeOf(distance(Xykon, Girard's Gate) == 1000 feet) < timeOf(distance(Xykon, Kraagor's Gate) == 1000 feet)))
then answer("Girard's Gate");else if(timeOf(distance(Xykon, Kraagor's Gate) == 100 feet) < timeOf(distance(Xykon, Girard's Gate) == 1000 feet)))
then answer("Kraagor's Gate");else answer("Neither");


No, you are incorrect. Roy asks which gate Xykon will be near first, on the condition that he will at some point be within 1000 feet of one. Its like asking "if you ever go on vacation, will you go to Florida or Tahiti first?" If you answer Florida, that does not imply that you WILL go to Florida, only that if you go on vacation you will go to Florida first.

[CardinalFang]

No, you are incorrect. Roy asks which gate Xykon will be near first, on the condition that he will at some point be within 1000 feet of one. Its like asking "if you ever go on vacation, will you go to Florida or Tahiti first?" If you answer Florida, that does not imply that you WILL go to Florida, only that if you go on vacation you will go to Florida first.
That's not correct, though. Roy didn't ask that question. He asked "if I go to Tahiti or Florida, which will I go to first?" There was NO "if I go on vacation" bit, and that's important. If Roy is not going to Tahiti OR Florida, the Oracle MUST answer "neither" or be 100% incorrect. That's the problem people are making when they analyze the semantics...they're adding that extra conditional bit at the front. Roy didn't do that.

[jindra34]

That's not correct, though. Roy didn't ask that question. He asked "if I go to Tahiti or Florida, which will I go to first?" There was NO "if I go on vacation" bit, and that's important. If Roy is not going to Tahiti OR Florida, the Oracle MUST answer "neither" or be 100% incorrect. That's the problem people are making when they analyze the semantics...they're adding that extra conditional bit at the front. Roy didn't do that.

Let me remind you of the fact that the oracle tried to get Roy to change his question... thus the oracle may have been trtying to hedge his bets... and nowhere in the story does it say the oracle is 100% accurate... up until this point he has been but it never states his prophecies are garunteed to come true

P.S. Sorry about the double teaming

[CardinalFang]

True, he may not be 100% accurate, but I think that he was trying to get Roy to change his question because Roy was leaving out Azure City. Plus, so far he's been 2 for 2: leading Roy and Durkon to the Dungeon of Dorukan, and Haley's Speech.

[Copacetic]

Wait what?..... This is complex

[jindra34]

True, he may not be 100% accurate, but I think that he was trying to get Roy to change his question because Roy was leaving out Azure City. Plus, so far he's been 2 for 2: leading Roy and Durkon to the Dungeon of Dorukan, and Haley's Speech.

Actually he is 5 for 5... his predictions from prestory were true... still we may never know wny the oracle wanted Roy to change the question...

[Ralfarius]

Well, in 332, Roy says that the oracle was trying to hint at the fact that Roy had accidentally omitted Azure City as the next possible target in the wording of his question. Therefore, it's safe to assume the oracle was trying to get him to reword based on that fact, rather than the "if" condition.

On the one hand, I would agree and say that wording Roy's question with "If" would, indeed give the possibility of Xykon not being with 1000 feet of either.

However, on the other hand, the oracle said unequivocally that "Of those two given locations, Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's gate first."

He was decidedly unambiguous, suggesting that his answer was actually disregarding the "if" statement, assuring us that Xykon would be so close to the next gate, after the siege of Azure City. However, had he included the "if" statement in his answer, I would go the other way and believe he was giving a totally unhelpful answer, in that Xykon wouldn't be near either in the future.

[Finwe]

That's not correct, though. Roy didn't ask that question. He asked "if I go to Tahiti or Florida, which will I go to first?" There was NO "if I go on vacation" bit, and that's important. If Roy is not going to Tahiti OR Florida, the Oracle MUST answer "neither" or be 100% incorrect. That's the problem people are making when they analyze the semantics...they're adding that extra conditional bit at the front. Roy didn't do that.


There's no difference between "go to" and "go on vacation to." They're both an action that must be satisfied for the answer of the question to be valid. The sentence still has the basic structure "if x or y happens, which one will occur first?" The if at the beginning places a condition on the answer to the question; the answer will take the form of "x will happen first, but only if x or y occurs."

[CardinalFang]

There's no difference between "go to" and "go on vacation to." They're both an action that must be satisfied for the answer of the question to be valid. The sentence still has the basic structure "if x or y happens, which one will occur first?" The if at the beginning places a condition on the answer to the question; the answer will take the form of "x will happen first, but only if x or y occurs."
No. Your question was "If X happens, will Y or Z happen?" It has an EXTRA condition. Roy's question was "If A or B happens, which will happen first?" If Neither A nor B happens, the Oracle MUST say "neither." But in your question, if X doesn't happen, he can give ambiguous responses about Y and Z.

[Demented]

Technically, the Oracle's reply in full would be:

"(If the Lich sorceror commonly referred to as "Xykon" will ever be, at some future point in time, within a 1000-foot radius of one of these two magical gates,) of these two given locations, Xykon will be within the radius of Girard's Gate first."

[Xiander]

Demented, i don't think that is the case. To me it seems that no matter how flawed the question was, the oracle did not twist it, but gave a pretty straight answer: "Of these two given locations, Xykon will be within the radius of Girard's Gate first."
If i am correct here, that means that Xykon will indeed be within 1000 feet of one or both gates.
Also if you read comix 331 it is obvious that the suggestion of an alternative question is there because the oracle knows that Xykon is headed for azure city.

[Demented]

I essentially just quoted the strip, and you're saying that what I said was not the case? :boggleeyes: O.o

[CardinalFang]

I essentially just quoted the strip, and you're saying that what I said was not the case? :boggleeyes: O.o
Well, you DID kinda put words in the Oracle's mouth.

[Demented]

I suppose. I stole them from Roy's question, after all. =P

[CardinalFang]

I suppose. I stole them from Roy's question, after all. =P
True, but you can't give the Oracle words he didn't say, and then say you're quoting. :smallwink:

Besides, I still don't understand why anyone would WANT the story not to involve the other two gates. It seems kind of silly to set them up, go through Dorukan's Gate, explain what happened to Lirian's Gate, and then go to Soon's Gate...and ignore the other two. I understand not wanting to get the whole Elan's dad/Haley's father thing(s) mixed up with Xykon, but you can't reasonably expect Xykon to ignore them, it'd be kind of anticlimactic to have Xykon (re)die now, and if Xykon wins control of the AC gate...game over for everyone. So the whole "poking holes in the Oracle's prediction" thing seems a bit pointless to me, really.

[Tobrian]

...Xykon has to live through the battle?

Assuming they all know what each other's prophecies were, they all know that Xykon will go to Girard's Gate. (Be within 1000 feet of it, according to the answer to Roy's prophecy.) Since they're fighting Xykon at Azure City, one must come to the logical conclusion that, unless the future can be changed or rewritten, Xykon will either win or retreat, because someday he'll be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate.

Indeed. I brought up the same theory here (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showpost.php?p=2231622&postcount=294) back in the OotS #428 thread. I just link to my posting instead of quoting it here at length, where I explain why I think Xykon will lose at Azure City, but the gate there will be destroyed.

[Finwe]

"If A or B happens, which will happen first?"

An DIRECT answer to this question would take the form "if a or b happen, a will happen first." That does NOT mean that a or b are guaranteed to happen, but that b can not happen until a has. If neither will happen, then the answer is meaningless, but still correct. The oracle's answer (which, as worded, was not a direct answer to the question) might seem to imply that Xykon WILL be within 1000 feet of Girard's gate at some point in time, and it is debatable in what way he meant the answer.

[CardinalFang]

An DIRECT answer to this question would take the form "if a or b happen, a will happen first." That does NOT mean that a or b are guaranteed to happen, but that b can not happen until a has. If neither will happen, then the answer is meaningless, but still correct. The oracle's answer (which, as worded, was not a direct answer to the question) might seem to imply that Xykon WILL be within 1000 feet of Girard's gate at some point in time, and it is debatable in what way he meant the answer.
No. If the Oracle answers "A will happen first," then A will happen first (B might not happen). "B will happen first" means that B will happen first (A might not happen). Just because the word "if" is in there doesn't mean the whole thing is simply a giant possibility. If neither A nor B is going to happen, the Oracle is obliged by the rules of logic and grammar to say "neither." The Oracle specifically stated "Xykon will be within 1000 feet of Girard's Gate first," and that means EXACTLY what it says. The only thing still up in the air is whether or not Xykon will go to Kraagor's Gate afterwards...the Oracle didn't specify. But just because the question had an "if" in it does not mean the whole answer is a big maybe.

[Avatar God]

Might I also remind you how hard the oracle pressed Roy to change the question... that suggests that the oracle might know something that would make Roy's question utterly irrelavant...Presumably, that knowledge was that the Xykon was traveling to a different gate - the one in Azure City (judging by the inserted panels of Xykon et al noting the trek to Azure City...).

So... is Xykon required to be alive when nearing Girard's Gate? (I mean, as alive as he can be).

[CardinalFang]

Presumably, that knowledge was that the Xykon was traveling to a different gate - the one in Azure City (judging by the inserted panels of Xykon et al noting the trek to Azure City...).

So... is Xykon required to be alive when nearing Girard's Gate? (I mean, as alive as he can be).
It could be argued that "the lich sorceror commonly referred to as Xykon" implies the entity himself, as opposed to a pile of bones which WAS Xykon.

Personally, I think the Oracle screwed with Roy's answer enough by not telling him about the Azure City gate. I think further screwage would have made the answer 100% pointless, not simply "useless until after the fact" like most oracular predictions.