curious

[Immabozo]

Is about a DC 2,500 ish fort save or die and a speed of mach 4 large enough numbers to be considered TO?

[Extra Anchovies]

Depends on how you get them and what you do with them. They're certainly above PO, at least. DC 2500 isn't much in TO, because in TO your target either A) is immune to whatever you're throwing at them or B) has arbitrary-but-finite (or even truly infinite) save modifiers.

[Uncle Pine]

It depends on whether or not it affects objects (which means undeads and constructs are affected as well), what is the source of the save and what kind of build we're talking about in general. I'd be curious to hear the details: what can this character do besides running very fast and making things a splode? Is she level 9000 (the whole topic would certainly be less interesting if she is)?

[(Un)Inspired]

Not really.

Relying on SoD effects and non-instantaneous travel is kinda chump change compared to whats possible in the vast relm of TO.

[Immabozo]

It depends on whether or not it affects objects (which means undeads and constructs are affected as well), what is the source of the save and what kind of build we're talking about in general. I'd be curious to hear the details: what can this character do besides running very fast and making things a splode? Is she level 9000 (the whole topic would certainly be less interesting if she is)?

mach 4 from level 1, SoD at level... 19 I want to say? Been a while since I made the build. I can post the full build tomorrow, when I am not sleep deprived.

I don't think it affects objects.


Not really.

Relying on SoD effects and non-instantaneous travel is kinda chump change compared to whats possible in the vast relm of TO.

True, TO can get numbers in the millions. But still, the speed is impressive, yes? I know there are builds out there that go FTL, but I came up with this one all on my lonesome, and I am proud of it!

[eggynack]

I'd give it a kinda. There's basically two classes of TO, I think. First, you have TO that is such because you'd never bring it to a game, because it's just too powerful. It's how the term tends to be used, I think. Second, you have TO that fits in that category because the character in question is largely designed as a thought experiment, rather than as a character, attempting to get really big numbers in particular areas, often at the expense of other build elements. I'm inclined to think your build is the latter, because the scale at hand is interesting, but the overall build isn't likely too powerful when really high level stuff comes into play.

[Immabozo]

I'd give it a kinda. There's basically two classes of TO, I think. First, you have TO that is such because you'd never bring it to a game, because it's just too powerful. It's how the term tends to be used, I think. Second, you have TO that fits in that category because the character in question is largely designed as a thought experiment, rather than as a character, attempting to get really big numbers in particular areas, often at the expense of other build elements. I'm inclined to think your build is the latter, because the scale at hand is interesting, but the overall build isn't likely too powerful when really high level stuff comes into play.

Eggy, I am flattered that you think it is TO! No, it might not be the most effective character in the world, but it's funny!

[ZamielVanWeber]

Am I the only one curious how the speed of the object effect anything? I don't recall the rules mentioning it anywhere.

[(Un)Inspired]

True, TO can get numbers in the millions. But still, the speed is impressive, yes? I know there are builds out there that go FTL, but I came up with this one all on my lonesome, and I am proud of it!

Numbers aren't as important as abilities. Who cares what your numbers are when there's a guy who can automatically end all life in the universe with no save?

Who cares how fast you can travel when there's teleportation? Just like, so much teleportation.

I would caution against pride. I doubt I'm an expert but I m not sure it's a good thing.

[Immabozo]

Am I the only one curious how the speed of the object effect anything? I don't recall the rules mentioning it anywhere.

Speed affects Jump Checks, and in tome of battle, there is a whole list of martial maneuvers that are affected by jump checks, including a save or stun and a save or die.


Numbers aren't as important as abilities. Who cares what your numbers are when there's a guy who can automatically end all life in the universe with no save?

Who cares how fast you can travel when there's teleportation? Just like, so much teleportation.

I would caution against pride. I doubt I'm an expert but I m not sure it's a good thing.

No reason not to take pride in my work. I never said it was the best, just that I did it and am proud of it

[ZamielVanWeber]

Speed affects Jump Checks, and in tome of battle, there is a whole list of martial maneuvers that are affected by jump checks, including a save or stun and a save or die.

Thank you. I am curious to see what you came up with.

[Uncle Pine]

Speed affects Jump Checks, and in tome of battle, there is a whole list of martial maneuvers that are affected by jump checks, including a save or stun and a save or die.

Feral Death Blow's save DC is keyed to your Str modifier though, not your Jump check.
Swooping Dragon Strike's save DC is keyed to your Jump check, but it simply stuns the target for one round if it fails.

About the pride thing, don't worry about that: Theoretical Optimization is all about being proud of your work when you come up with something interesting and loving both the system and crunching numbers. There's nothing wrong in being proud if you don't become obnoxious. :)

[Killer Angel]

Not really.

Relying on SoD effects and non-instantaneous travel is kinda chump change compared to whats possible in the vast relm of TO.

Yep, but those numbers are beyond PO. :smallwink:

[Uncle Pine]

I just realized that the OP's question is "is this TO?" instead of "is this good/efficient/cool/intriguing/take you pick TO?".

The answer to the real question is yes, because there's no way a practical build can survive such numbers unless a specific counter (i.e. necropolitan) is involved.

[Immabozo]

Feral Death Blow's save DC is keyed to your Str modifier though, not your Jump check.
Swooping Dragon Strike's save DC is keyed to your Jump check, but it simply stuns the target for one round if it fails.

About the pride thing, don't worry about that: Theoretical Optimization is all about being proud of your work when you come up with something interesting and loving both the system and crunching numbers. There's nothing wrong in being proud if you don't become obnoxious. :)

Thank you.

And it has been a while since I made the build, so I will have to re-look at it


I just realized that the OP's question is "is this TO?" instead of "is this good/efficient/cool/intriguing/take you pick TO?".

The answer to the real question is yes, because there's no way a practical build can survive such numbers unless a specific counter (i.e. necropolitan) is involved.

I was wondering, I thought as much, thank you.

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

Here's one for you:

Could you imagine bringing this character to a table and playing it? Then it's PO. If you can't, then it's TO.

(I mean, it's not that simple. There are tables where TO is completely fine, where that's the point of the table. But I think it's a decent working definition of the differences between the two, at least for a given individual.)

[(Un)Inspired]

Yep, but those numbers are beyond PO. :smallwink:

There are literally individual spells that are better the achievement's OP is touting. Kill spells that don't allow a save at all and as I've already pointed out, Teleportation.


As far as pride goes, hubris is typically a pretty unappealing trait but as I said, I'm not an expert. Most of my social experience is limited to California. Perhaps in other places humility isn't viewed as important?

[Deaxsa]

There are literally individual spells that are better the achievement's OP is touting. Kill spells that don't allow a save at all and as I've already pointed out, Teleportation.


As far as pride goes, hubris is typically a pretty unappealing trait but as I said, I'm not an expert. Most of my social experience is limited to California. Perhaps in other places humility isn't viewed as important?

... Can we move past this? He's proud, it's not a crime.

On topic, yeah. That might as well be TO, not so much because it's pretty much op (at some tables, it may not be, and yes, there are scarier spells) BUT because (IMO) you're putting that much effort into optimizing something that ends up quite powerful. If you did this (or the same with a more powerful combo) at my table, I'd probably just roll my eyes and ask when you wanted to play a role playing game, instead of counting to high numbers. That said, good on you for finding the trick. How'd you do it?

Then again, keep in mind I like to play lower-power games and e6, I'm not a huge fan of high-level dnd (not to mention high-op dnd)

[Immabozo]

There are literally individual spells that are better the achievement's OP is touting. Kill spells that don't allow a save at all and as I've already pointed out, Teleportation.


As far as pride goes, hubris is typically a pretty unappealing trait but as I said, I'm not an expert. Most of my social experience is limited to California. Perhaps in other places humility isn't viewed as important?

There is a difference between hubris and taking pride in your work. But I agree with what Deaxsa said, it is not a crime.


... Can we move past this? He's proud, it's not a crime.

On topic, yeah. That might as well be TO, not so much because it's pretty much op (at some tables, it may not be, and yes, there are scarier spells) BUT because (IMO) you're putting that much effort into optimizing something that ends up quite powerful. If you did this (or the same with a more powerful combo) at my table, I'd probably just roll my eyes and ask when you wanted to play a role playing game, instead of counting to high numbers. That said, good on you for finding the trick. How'd you do it?

Then again, keep in mind I like to play lower-power games and e6, I'm not a huge fan of high-level dnd (not to mention high-op dnd)

I'll post the build shortly. And no, I would not try to play anything like this at a real D&D table. Although, I am a power gamer, I would probably not find enjoyment PLAYING the character, although, who knows, I might!

[QuickLyRaiNbow]

So that says TO to me.