Help with Archetypes?

[Thomastwobit]

I have been wanting to play a rogue in an upcoming campaign he is running but the majority of the enemies we face are undead. Since rogues do not get sneak attack damage against the undead is there a rogue archetype that trades that feature for something else? AND PLEASE DO NOT TELL ME TO PLAY A DIFFERENT CLASS AS THAT IS NOT HELPING ANSWER THE QUESTION AND WOULD BE BOTH DISINGENUOUS AND USELESS. I only include that message because I can already see the multitudes of posts saying just play ranger or some other clas etc and etc. Thanks everyone who reads and offers a solutions ^-^.

[stack]

Okay, you didn't use an edition tag, so we need clarification. Referring to archetypes implies pathfinder, but in pathfinder you CAN sneak attack undead. If 3.5, there is an alternate class feature that lets you do some sneak attack damage against undead, though others will elaborate more than I can.

[torrasque666]

Aye. In pathfinder, Undead have immunity to critical hits, but not precision damage. See the sidebar here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sneak-Attack).

[Thomastwobit]

Aye. In pathfinder, Undead have immunity to critical hits, but not precision damage. See the sidebar here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sneak-Attack).

Ah thanks I was not aware of this, and yeah sorry or missing the Pathfinder tag. Thanks for the quick responses guys.

[Geddy2112]

None of the rogue archetypes remove sneak attack, but as stated above undead can be sneak attacked.

You might want to consider the counterfeit mage (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue/archetypes/paizo---rogue-archetypes/counterfeit-mage) archetype though, it would give you more ability to use wands of cure light wounds and other magic that is helpful against undead/evil things.

[Pex]

Aye. In pathfinder, Undead have immunity to critical hits, but not precision damage. See the sidebar here (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/rogue#TOC-Sneak-Attack).

Undead are not immune critical hits. Incorporeal undead are, but that's because they're incorporeal.

[Psyren]

Have you looked at the Unchained Rogue (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/unchained-classes/rogue-unchained)? It's still a rogue, it can still use all the same archetypes, but it is much more powerful than the regular one because it gets things like dex to damage and Debilitating Injury. And it can sneak attack undead just like the normal one can. As the name implies, it comes from the recently released Pathfinder Unchained (http://paizo.com/products/btpy9c25?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Pathfinder-Unchained) book.

[animewatcha]

Didn't unchained say that unchained classes were a no go for archetypes?

[Psyren]

Didn't unchained say that unchained classes were a no go for archetypes?

Nope, only the monk got hit by that. Unchained Rogue, Barb, and Summoner are all okay for archetypes.

[IZ42]

Nope, only the monk got hit by that. Unchained Rogue, Barb, and Summoner are all okay for archetypes.

Which is stupid, because the unchained monk was only a slight improvement over the base monk. Folks at Paizo need to stop nerfing an already weak class.

[Psyren]

Which is stupid, because the unchained monk was only a slight improvement over the base monk. Folks at Paizo need to stop nerfing an already weak class.

While I do wish they still had access to Zen Archer/Far Strike, as well as the much better bonus feat options in MoMS, Tetori and Flowing Monk, UM was definitely not nerfed - it is far and away an upgrade on the base monk. (Not to mention they kept the most important archetype, Qinggong, and made it part of the class.)

And no, I wouldn't call it a "slight improvement" either - it has pounce, much higher AC/CMD, much better to-hit which leads to more damage etc.

[IZ42]

While I do wish they still had access to Zen Archer/Far Strike, as well as the much better bonus feat options in MoMS, Tetori and Flowing Monk, UM was definitely not nerfed - it is far and away an upgrade on the base monk. (Not to mention they kept the most important archetype, Qinggong, and made it part of the class.)

And no, I wouldn't call it a "slight improvement" either - it has pounce, much higher AC/CMD, much better to-hit which leads to more damage etc.

Yeah, I did say it was an improvement, but it wasn't as big of a one as everybody thinks. My one main objection to them is that they didn't do pretty much anything to fix the MAD issues of the monk, and even slightly increased them by nerfing the will save, and still didn't provide an easy way to enhance unarmed strikes. The baseline MAD issue is a far bigger one than any other problem the monk has, and while it can be solved, it takes unnecessary effort to do so. The currently easiest way to improve the MAD problem of the monk requires 2 feats and access to 3rd party material (specifically Weapon Finesse into Deadly Agility from DSP, but you can do it other ways, that involve dipping or more feats). If they had managed to fix the MAD issue, I would be far happier with the unchained monk.

[Vhaidara]

Yeah, I did say it was an improvement, but it wasn't as big of a one as everybody thinks. My one main objection to them is that they didn't do pretty much anything to fix the MAD issues of the monk, and even slightly increased them by nerfing the will save, and still didn't provide an easy way to enhance unarmed strikes. The baseline MAD issue is a far bigger one than any other problem the monk has, and while it can be solved, it takes unnecessary effort to do so. The currently easiest way to improve the MAD problem of the monk requires 2 feats and access to 3rd party material (specifically Weapon Finesse into Deadly Agility from DSP, but you can do it other ways, that involve dipping or more feats). If they had managed to fix the MAD issue, I would be far happier with the unchained monk.

I can actually vouch for this. As an UnMonk at level 6 using Deadly Agility, I am able to keep up with PoW characters for DPR as long as I can full attack (Ki point flurry = 4 Attacks, 3 of which are at full BAB, the first of which is a stunning fist and the second of which is a free trip attempt from leg sweep)

I do personally feel the biggest thing Paizo could do for the monk is open their bonus feats up to all combat and make Deadly Agility first party.

[IZ42]

I can actually vouch for this. As an UnMonk at level 6 using Deadly Agility, I am able to keep up with PoW characters for DPR as long as I can full attack (Ki point flurry = 4 Attacks, 3 of which are at full BAB, the first of which is a stunning fist and the second of which is a free trip attempt from leg sweep)

I do personally feel the biggest thing Paizo could do for the monk is open their bonus feats up to all combat and make Deadly Agility first party.

I mean, the whole deadly agility thing is almost never a problem for me, at least, because my DM strenuously supports DSP, but others don't have that luxury. The other ways to get DEX to damage are 3 level dip in URogue, and spending 3 feats to pick up Weapon Finesse, Boar Style, and Slashing Grace.

[Psyren]

Yeah, I did say it was an improvement, but it wasn't as big of a one as everybody thinks. My one main objection to them is that they didn't do pretty much anything to fix the MAD issues of the monk, and even slightly increased them by nerfing the will save, and still didn't provide an easy way to enhance unarmed strikes. The baseline MAD issue is a far bigger one than any other problem the monk has, and while it can be solved, it takes unnecessary effort to do so. The currently easiest way to improve the MAD problem of the monk requires 2 feats and access to 3rd party material (specifically Weapon Finesse into Deadly Agility from DSP, but you can do it other ways, that involve dipping or more feats). If they had managed to fix the MAD issue, I would be far happier with the unchained monk.

They did ameliorate the MAD issue; an Unchained Monk can get away with much less Dex than a regular one with all the AC bonuses they can get, letting you divert more points to Str. And if you want to focus on Dex, you can - it's not like you need 3rd-party material to get Dex to damage.

[animewatcha]

While I do wish they still had access to Zen Archer/Far Strike, as well as the much better bonus feat options in MoMS, Tetori and Flowing Monk, UM was definitely not nerfed - it is far and away an upgrade on the base monk. (Not to mention they kept the most important archetype, Qinggong, and made it part of the class.)

And no, I wouldn't call it a "slight improvement" either - it has pounce, much higher AC/CMD, much better to-hit which leads to more damage etc.

Forgive me. Without pounce-style feats, how does UnMonk get pounce? Let alone much higher ac/cmd? I am likely missing something here.

[Eldaran]

They don't get pounce, but they have a bunch of options to get basically the same thing, which can be simplified to pounce. Flying Kick lets them move a short distance and full attack, Ki Hurricane lets them full attack while moving a lot (though it costs a bucket of Ki), and there's still good old Pummeling Charge.

[Psyren]

Forgive me. Without pounce-style feats, how does UnMonk get pounce? Let alone much higher ac/cmd? I am likely missing something here.

Flying Kick is the easiest way for them to pounce (albeit shorter range), or they can go with Pummeling Charge or Ki Hurricane.

For AC, they have Defensive Spin and Furious Defense, plus since they can pounce now they get much better use out of things like Dodge and Mobility. They also have access to Qinggong powers like Barkskin and Stone Shield.