Please help me design a really cool and imaginative gladiatorial tournament format !

[Dr TPK]

In a generally NG human-dominated city in my campaign, a gladiatorial arena is being built. Gladiatorial combats have been banned for centuries, but through some really hard work, the PCs have lifted the ban and the proponents of the gladiatorial combat have built the arena to the capital.

Now I need a cool format for the tournaments. Please give me some ideas.

My preliminary ideas:

1st tournament -

An 8th-man tournament where the battles are fought to the first blood (a loss of 5% of total hp or more) or to the subjugation of either of the contestants. Being under a serious mortal danger will also cause the contestant to lose a fight. In other words, the gladiators can't really die in this format.
The winner of the tournament will fight a dangerous monster in the next gladiatorial tournament (some other day). If (s)he defeats the monster, (s)he will be crowned as the Champion of the Arena.

However, there will be a Special Bout in which only noncitizens may fight and the men who fight in the 8th-men tournament are not eligible to fight in it. The Special Bout will be fought either to the death or submission, but the winner is not required to accept the submission. The winner will be permitted to fight a dangerous condemned criminal in the next tournament. If the criminal loses, (s)he will be pardoned by the King, but if (s)he loses, the gladiator is required to execute the criminal (without hesitation). It's a secret, but in fact the gladiator can still spare the criminal's life, but then the King will pardon the criminal on the spot, and the gladiator will receive one more chance to kill the criminal before the pardon takes effect.

What do you think? Would you add anything more? Or are my choices even logical for an NG human city in a good and orderly kingdom?

[Extra Anchovies]

I'd advise against gladiatorial PvP. It, like all forms of PvP, quickly turns into an optimization contest, and those are never fun because it becomes based on player skill and knowledge rather than character skill and knowledge.

Monsters fights are awesome fun, though.

[daremetoidareyo]

Betting? There's gotta be betting.

[Dr TPK]

I'd advise against gladiatorial PvP. It, like all forms of PvP, quickly turns into an optimization contest, and those are never fun because it becomes based on player skill and knowledge rather than character skill and knowledge.

Monsters fights are awesome fun, though.

I got that angle partially covered.
The other contestant for the Special Bout will be a surly deep gnome, who only loves two things in life: killing and slaughtering. He knows something the PCs absolutely need to know, but refuses to tell it. If one of the PCs defeat him and spare his life, he will yield and tell them everything they want to know.

Thus at least one of the PCs is out of PvP battles. The 8th-man tournament will have several NPCs and with them, I can sway the combat in the favor of non-OP characters by making the NPC gladiators perfect OP character killers and surprisingly wussy against the non-OP characters.

[Dr TPK]

Betting? There's gotta be betting.

Certainly, certainly! That's a lovely idea! They will have plenty of that!

[Honest Tiefling]

I'd advise against gladiatorial PvP. It, like all forms of PvP, quickly turns into an optimization contest, and those are never fun because it becomes based on player skill and knowledge rather than character skill and knowledge.

Monsters fights are awesome fun, though.

I would also think that the time needed to run fights would make this prohibitive. Once eliminated, what would players do, eat all of the snacks? I suggest a team game instead, in that the PC team fights another team or big bad monster.

And...Yes, I do find the death match thing incongruious with a mostly Neutral Good government. I could see Neutral Good being forced to kill people, okay, somewhat grim world but most people can work with this. But the problem lies in both the idea of equipping really dangerous or twisted individuals and hoping they don't try to escape. The second being a mostly good aligned people being invested and cheering on messy death. Sorta...Weird if you ask me.

A suggestion would be that some wizards approach the party with an alternative. Why fight real monsters, when you can fight illusions? The goal being an emphasis on intelligence, cunning and awareness. The illusions would be paired with genuine environmental hazards, so it is hard to tell what is real and what is not. Give saves for interacting, so mundanes with high speed and throwing abilities can work out what is real and what is not a little easier. Or even make the goal of the combat not to kill poor innocent monsters, but to instruct the populace on the hazards of certain things like trolls or zombies. Heck, the combats could even be historical re-enactments of ancient and glorious battles from the kingdom's own stories. Polymorph could also work on volunteers willing to rampage around as a big beefy troll for a little bit.

[Dr TPK]

And...Yes, I do find the death match thing incongruious with a mostly Neutral Good government. I could see Neutral Good being forced to kill people, okay, somewhat grim world but most people can work with this. But the problem lies in both the idea of equipping really dangerous or twisted individuals and hoping they don't try to escape. The second being a mostly good aligned people being invested and cheering on messy death. Sorta...Weird if you ask me.

Your criticism is perfectly fair, but the matches don't have to fully please the majority. The first death match between foreigners is just to please the non-good citizens of the realm that have managed to lobby for the gladiatorial combats. The format of the tournament gives something for everyone. I would say that the majority of the people will avoid the tournament altogether, but it will be hugely successful for the minority, and this case, very rich majority.

The neutral good people will expect the "death matches" to end in mercy every time. Seeing that in a such violent tournament will make everyone remember that deep down, we are all good people. The King's mercy will be just since the punishment to fight in the tournament with the prospect of painful death will be enough.

Just my logic! Maybe flawed, but feel free to object.

[Honest Tiefling]

I would assume that the NG people wouldn't be dumb enough to think that people who are willing to bloodily assault other people for glory and fame are going to pick the mercy option every time. If it is so important, why not make it law? Why trust morally-questionable people when you can stop it with some simple changes to the law? And if the city is NG dominated, doesn't that imply the king is as well, so why is he even being associated with such a bloody sport that might cost him supporters? The more questionable people might like the tournament, but I think if I was a royal with a target on my back I'd try to get the support of people less likely to assassinate me for kicks and giggles or their own profit.

I also cannot see neutral good people totally okay with death matches just because foreigners fight and not their own people. I think that's edging into neutral territory, if not outright evil. Might I ask if the criminals have a choice in the method of their execution, or are they just tossed into the gladiatorial combat? I would think that okaying a sport where people are unwillingly chased down by bloodthirsty murderhobos, regardless of their crimes is a bit much for good aligned folks. What sort of crimes do they need to commit to even get into the arena, anyway?

[daremetoidareyo]

Your criticism is perfectly fair, but the matches don't have to fully please the majority. The first death match between foreigners is just to please the non-good citizens of the realm that have managed to lobby for the gladiatorial combats. The format of the tournament gives something for everyone. I would say that the majority of the people will avoid the tournament altogether, but it will be hugely successful for the minority, and this case, very rich majority.

The neutral good people will expect the "death matches" to end in mercy every time. Seeing that in a such violent tournament will make everyone remember that deep down, we are all good people. The King's mercy will be just since the punishment to fight in the tournament with the prospect of painful death will be enough.

Just my logic! Maybe flawed, but feel free to object.

Make the tournament a layover of tradition. When two rivals cities that were once at war a bunch finally made peace, they kept these tournaments as a symbol of how conflict can exist in a united people.

Grab HonestTieflings' advice and put a little protest up of people who think that the violence is archaic. They have signs. They yell at the gladiators, calling them killers, bloodythirsty nitwits, and such.

An upcoming politician illusionist is at the forefront of the movement asking why we cant be fighting shadow conjurations, because it's safer: they can be dismissed.

[Brookshw]

Team games, more than two teams. Traps and interesting terrain in the arena, monsters/animals, either wild or caged with levers on the arena to release them.

For fun make part of the arena a spiked pit, with several walkways to a center part with a persistent reverse gravity trap and an overhang it launches the gladiators up to with a special prize in a box that takes several rounds to open. Gladiators can have fun knocking each other out of the reverse gravity area so they fall into the spikes (or if theu're lucky, a walkway).

A maze with spell turrets in various hallways and a few monsters roaming around, gladiators stalk each other while avoiding the turrets and monsters (or luring one another into them).

Edit: audience participation! Audience throws prizes in the arena for exciting performance, crits and kills for example.

[Honest Tiefling]

Make the tournament a layover of tradition. When two rivals cities that were once at war a bunch finally made peace, they kept these tournaments as a symbol of how conflict can exist in a united people.

Grab HonestTieflings' advice and put a little protest up of people who think that the violence is archaic. They have signs. They yell at the gladiators, calling them killers, bloodythirsty nitwits, and such.

An upcoming politician illusionist is at the forefront of the movement asking why we cant be fighting shadow conjurations, because it's safer: they can be dismissed.

I would skip the signs due to feeling anachronistic, but I would also suggest having a NG temple be concerned about the influence the violent games are having. And then have a CG temple try to fleece the excited and possibly drunk crowd or throw bets to turn the rich, but morally questionable people into just morally questionable people.

I would also suggest having one of the monsters escape. The players can try to use the chaos to their advantage, or they can subdue the monster for the crowd.

[Dr TPK]

I would assume that the NG people wouldn't be dumb enough to think that people who are willing to bloodily assault other people for glory and fame are going to pick the mercy option every time. If it is so important, why not make it law? Why trust morally-questionable people when you can stop it with some simple changes to the law? And if the city is NG dominated, doesn't that imply the king is as well, so why is he even being associated with such a bloody sport that might cost him supporters? The more questionable people might like the tournament, but I think if I was a royal with a target on my back I'd try to get the support of people less likely to assassinate me for kicks and giggles or their own profit.

I think your getting Lawful Good and Neutral Good badly mixed up here. Look here, (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx0NhN0o9JzxVVJIZWQ1SF90MjQ/view?usp=sharing) it's from the DMG.


I also cannot see neutral good people totally okay with death matches just because foreigners fight and not their own people. I think that's edging into neutral territory, if not outright evil. Might I ask if the criminals have a choice in the method of their execution, or are they just tossed into the gladiatorial combat? I would think that okaying a sport where people are unwillingly chased down by bloodthirsty murderhobos, regardless of their crimes is a bit much for good aligned folks. What sort of crimes do they need to commit to even get into the arena, anyway?

Criminals can choose to opt for gladiatorial combat. They are then screened and the one that would be best choice for a pardon will be selected. Crimes can be really heinous, like murder and rape, but the amount evidence that led to the conviction, perpetrator's dependents or if there is still hope for better are all important factors. Mercy, that's the key.

[Dr TPK]

Make the tournament a layover of tradition. When two rivals cities that were once at war a bunch finally made peace, they kept these tournaments as a symbol of how conflict can exist in a united people.

Grab HonestTieflings' advice and put a little protest up of people who think that the violence is archaic. They have signs. They yell at the gladiators, calling them killers, bloodythirsty nitwits, and such.

An upcoming politician illusionist is at the forefront of the movement asking why we cant be fighting shadow conjurations, because it's safer: they can be dismissed.

I'm loving this, thank you! Perfect!

[Honest Tiefling]

I think your getting Lawful Good and Neutral Good badly mixed up here. Look here, (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bx0NhN0o9JzxVVJIZWQ1SF90MjQ/view?usp=sharing) it's from the DMG.

Actually, I'm not. I assume that being Neutral Good does not render you completely and utterly incapable of realizing that laws can be utilized your advantage, nor make you forget that laws exist and tend to make people stop doing things you don't like. They don't believe that law is an important concept to be upheld, but why would they ignore a tool to get what they believe is right?

[Ferronach]

You could always do something like the FF VII battle area (http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Battle_Square)from the Golden Saucer.

If you are not familiar with it here is a quick overview.
There are up to 8 rounds of opponents.
You can decide to stop or continue after you defeat each oponent/group of oponents.
If you choose to continue, you will receive a random penalty that lasts until you finish the tournament, stop or lose by KO/death.
The more hadicaps you have and the more debilitating they are, the more points you get.
Points can be used as a form of money to buy prizes and such.

for the opponents you could use summoned monsters/illusion etc.


To add my 2cp to the debate:
I think that the trial by tournament might chafe the population a bit. If you have a mass murderer, chances are he is a much better fighter than a guy accused of tax evasion (or something like that). THis means that the worse the criminal, the higher the probability that they will end up getting a pardon from the King...

[Honest Tiefling]

To add my 2cp to the debate:
I think that the trial by tournament might chafe the population a bit. If you have a mass murderer, chances are he is a much better fighter than a guy accused of tax evasion (or something like that). THis means that the worse the criminal, the higher the probability that they will end up getting a pardon from the King...

That's a good point. You could murder the crap out of someone and then volunteer for this arena. Either get the snot beat out of you, banking on the mercy of the NG, or put up an entertaining and sadistic enough fight to grab a more evil patron depending on your abilities. If you get a pardon, you basically go free for the price of one fight. It might hurt like crazy, but hey, free kingy pardon!

Oh, another plot point? Steal the ol' 'go to jail to murder a criminal' thing. Someone goes to the gladiatorial arena with the intent of murdering one of the other contestants no matter what, be it in the arena or out of the arena.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I'd advise against gladiatorial PvP. It, like all forms of PvP, quickly turns into an optimization contest, and those are never fun because it becomes based on player skill and knowledge rather than character skill and knowledge.

Teams, however, work fine and are historically accurate. (A lot of gladiatorial stuff is historically accurate; the Romans were very enterprising).
Speaking of Romans can we go with the classic mock naval battle?

[Jowgen]

First of, Complete Warrior has rules for gladiator combat, archery competitions and such starting pate 131. City of Stormreach has some gladiator type competition rules that you'd also might want to check out. p 139 I think they are on, but there might be more elsewhere in the book. Races of Stone 57 has rules for a game called Goatball, if you'd prefer something light.

Second, I think the two main things is that you need to have variety and that player's can/have to do more than just plain roll dice to win whatever you're having them do.

I personally like to do free for all matches in an arena that features pillars and platforms of different elevations that allow characters to move about tactically. The arena itself should be as much of an opponent as the other contestants in my opinion :smallsmile:

[Nashira]

To add my 2cp to the debate:
I think that the trial by tournament might chafe the population a bit. If you have a mass murderer, chances are he is a much better fighter than a guy accused of tax evasion (or something like that). THis means that the worse the criminal, the higher the probability that they will end up getting a pardon from the King...

This right here would be my biggest concern (though, I got the impression that it would be criminal v. PC). What citizenry and/or politicians in their right minds would allow a convicted criminal, sentenced to death, to choose between the death penalty and a chance at a full pardon so long as they go kill some random guy in an arena for sport. This literally incentivizes people to murder. It's a little like saying, "hey, do you live in our city and like killing people? Well, as long as you are really, really good at it you can do it as much as you want."

Alternatively, you might consider giving criminals the option to live out their lives as gladiators, kind of like the slave-gladiators back from ye olde Rome. They got paid for their fights and had a bit of freedom, but had to fight no matter what. You could also ban such a gladiator from killing any opponent on pain of death barring special circumstances.

[Dr TPK]

Alternatively, you might consider giving criminals the option to live out their lives as gladiators, kind of like the slave-gladiators back from ye olde Rome. They got paid for their fights and had a bit of freedom, but had to fight no matter what. You could also ban such a gladiator from killing any opponent on pain of death barring special circumstances.

Quite honestly this is a lot better than my idea. I will do it like you have suggested. However, I would add that if the gladiator fights a hundred fights AND shows genuine remorse asking a good-aligned god for forgivance, the death sentence will be waived and the criminal receives a pardon. Fair?

[Nashira]

Quite honestly this is a lot better than my idea. I will do it like you have suggested. However, I would add that if the gladiator fights a hundred fights AND shows genuine remorse asking a good-aligned god for forgivance, the death sentence will be waived and the criminal receives a pardon. Fair?

I'm always a sucker for redemption. I think your idea is a good one. Maybe for some added fluff, when someone is finally pardoned you could have the city hold a ceremony for them. Add something in about how this person was able to stay their hand from killing another such and so many times and and fought with great honor and now shows true remorse for their actions.

You might also want to consider allowing less heinous criminals fight in the arena as well. They risk their life in the arena for so many years with each year served counting as two years in prison or something.