LGBTAI+ #56: Prismatic Spray!

[BladeofObliviom]

...who the in the Nine Hells does affirmative consent kill the mood for? Rapists?

Well...yes. That pretty much sums it up, really.

[Lentrax]

...who the in the Nine Hells does affirmative consent kill the mood for? Rapists?

Maybe not in the sense that it kills the mood to be upfront and clear, but that the way it is said completely kills the mood you were building up to? Like popping a bubble? One little pop and the mood is changed entirely?

[JNAProductions]

"Do you want me to use my blood-inflated meat hose to titillate your nether regions?"

That could be a mood killer.

[Jeff the Green]

Maybe not in the sense that it kills the mood to be upfront and clear, but that the way it is said completely kills the mood you were building up to? Like popping a bubble? One little pop and the mood is changed entirely?

Again, if you can't think of at least one way to make it part of the mood building, you're bad at sex. It's not rocket surgery.

[golentan]

"Do you want me to use my blood-inflated meat hose to titillate your nether regions?"

That could be a mood killer.

Well, I mean, if you're being deliberately weird or gross, that'd be a turn off. But...

"I want you to screw me senseless."

"Oh god, yes, please, I need you right now."

How is that not hot, doubly so asked breathlessly between kisses...

Or, with my ex, since I was the one with the history of sexual assault trauma and sometimes wouldn't be okay with things, if we were drinking on date night I'd say "If I'm under the influence and say yes, that's a legit yes," or "I don't wanna do anything right now, but if I change my mind and ask you, that's a yes," or "I don't wanna do anything tonight, so please don't ask and if I do please turn me down." No was always no.

Boom. 1 line, consent under the influence established or revoked while sober before it becomes a question, without trampling the ability to say no.

[Lentrax]

Again, if you can't think of at least one way to make it part of the mood building, you're bad at sex. It's not rocket surgery.

Yes, I am well versed in the matters of foreplay and maintaining a mood. I was trying to come up with a way of explaining how being blunt could potentially ruin the mood you worked hard to establish and build up.

But, hey, thanks for treating me like an idiot.

[Anarion]

Boom. 1 line, consent under the influence established or revoked while sober before it becomes a question, without trampling the ability to say no.

Golly, that's not at all how that works. Like, not even a little bit. :smallfrown:

[Grytorm]

This strikes me as a discussion liable to devolve even if I have no experience with the issues. So just be careful.

[golentan]

Golly, that's not at all how that works. Like, not even a little bit. :smallfrown:

How not? How is establishing a firm no before alcohol bad, or establishing "yes means yes" when under the influence beforehand bad? They had their own standing policies on that stuff. We talked about it first, negotiated consent, and there wasn't question!

[Lissou]

How not? How is establishing a firm no before alcohol bad, or establishing "yes means yes" when under the influence beforehand bad? They had their own standing policies on that stuff. We talked about it first, negotiated consent, and there wasn't question!

I'd personally be careful about it, too. I mean I understand your case: you guys were in a relationship, before drinking you go "hey, I'm in the mood for something happening today, so if I tell you so after drinking, it's not just the alcohol talking". But consent can be revoked at any time, hence why I'd be careful about it. I wouldn't trust someone telling me "you have my consent for later". I trust people saying "you have my consent right now". But if they're drunk... then I don't. Personally, I'd do something before drinking, or after sobering up. And hey, maybe the activities start before the drinking, and then having a drink is part of the whole thing, that's probably the furthest I can see it go.

But giving consent in advance is tricky business. It's saying "at a future time, I will be fine with X". But many of us are terrible at predicting things, and there can be unforeseen situations and actually, you're not fine with it. And if the other person goes "well you already gave consent" and acts like it's binding...

I feel consent can be withdrawn at any time, even in the middle of the act. But if someone's judgement is impaired, they may be unable to withdraw or void consent, so you just won't know. So I'd rather steer away from those situations in the first place. I don't want to find out after the fact that had they been sober, they would have withdrawn their consent, but never got a chance to because they were under the influence.

So yeah, if someone goes "I'm sober now and I consent now, so it won't be the alcohol talking", my thought would be "if you're sober now and you consent now, why wait?" and the consent becomes void to me the second they become tipsy.

[Athedia]

I'd personally be careful about it, too. I mean I understand your case: you guys were in a relationship, before drinking you go "hey, I'm in the mood for something happening today, so if I tell you so after drinking, it's not just the alcohol talking". But consent can be revoked at any time, hence why I'd be careful about it. I wouldn't trust someone telling me "you have my consent for later". I trust people saying "you have my consent right now". But if they're drunk... then I don't. Personally, I'd do something before drinking, or after sobering up. And hey, maybe the activities start before the drinking, and then having a drink is part of the whole thing, that's probably the furthest I can see it go.

But giving consent in advance is tricky business. It's saying "at a future time, I will be fine with X". But many of us are terrible at predicting things, and there can be unforeseen situations and actually, you're not fine with it. And if the other person goes "well you already gave consent" and acts like it's binding...

I feel consent can be withdrawn at any time, even in the middle of the act. But if someone's judgement is impaired, they may be unable to withdraw or void consent, so you just won't know. So I'd rather steer away from those situations in the first place. I don't want to find out after the fact that had they been sober, they would have withdrawn their consent, but never got a chance to because they were under the influence.

So yeah, if someone goes "I'm sober now and I consent now, so it won't be the alcohol talking", my thought would be "if you're sober now and you consent now, why wait?" and the consent becomes void to me the second they become tipsy.

But what goletan was saying was you can still revoke at any point

[golentan]

Because dinner gets cold and the wine pairing is decanted and I worked for hours on those stuffed portobellos. Because I like expressing affection in a number of ways, and one of them is cooking and food and other creature comforts. Because I'm usually pretty good about knowing my own limits on all fronts, and never have had nor will have more than 2 glasses of wine, and since we may be drinking together I wanted my partner to know I was interested and that yes means yes and will still in an hour, but no still means no and always and forever will regardless of when it's said, and maybe means neither yes or no but rather ask again later. Because I trusted my then partner and because drinking and sex work well together for some people, because alcohol sometimes helps me relax enough to enjoy myself. Because talking about all this stuff (not just the alcohol, but the past history, and the sometimes panic attacks which are an automatic full stop, and all the other stuff) removes the wishy-washy, because I'm not trying to establish legal culpability but rather trust. Because it's super important to me that someone trusts me to say either yes or no, and because a no in the middle of things would still mean no and that doesn't change, ever, and because the whole thing is predicated on my ability to still say yes later.

Because it feels super hurtful when someone says no not because they don't want to, but because they don't trust me to know my own wishes. Because if they don't trust me to say yes when I have thought about it and said it, I don't trust them enough to give them a yes. :smallfrown:

[celtois]

Or that it kills the mood. If you can't think of some way to make it sexy, you're bad at sex.

Totally agree.
I think some people have this conception of affirmative consent that it has to look like this.
Person 1 "May I kiss you?"
Person 2 "Yes"
*they kiss*
Person 1 "May I kiss you again?"
Person 2 "Yes"
*they kiss again*
...
Verbatim for every single thing.
I can see how that might be a mood killer.
But affirmative consent doesn't have to look like that.

There have been some great examples up thread of what affirmative consent can look like. Where it either doesn't interfere with, or adds to the experience.

A good guideline is:
If you're both sober, ask to initiate things, and as long as both of your are enthusiastically into it, keep at it.
Ask if you feel like you're crossing any boundaries, and if you feel like your parter ceases to be enthusiastically into things stop, & ask them.
If one or both parties in inebriated, don't. Sexy times are more fun when they can be remembered.
(This is more complicated in long term relationships. But hey, you have time to figure things out with your partner if you're in one of those. )

Note this is not meant to be legal advice in any way shape or form. Just common sense-type advice.

[Anarion]

How not? How is establishing a firm no before alcohol bad, or establishing "yes means yes" when under the influence beforehand bad? They had their own standing policies on that stuff. We talked about it first, negotiated consent, and there wasn't question!

I'd rather not go too deep into this topic. I'm very pleased if you have something that works well for you and everyone involved was happy, and even more pleased if you and another person have found a bond of trust between you. :smallsmile:

[noparlpf]

I dunno, I didn't see any issue with Golly's system. No is always no, and yes while drunk is only a yes if it was already a yes while sober.

[Svata]

I see no issue either, but that could just be me being an idiot.

[ThinkMinty]

I don't drink, so...I dunno, I don't think I'm comfortable ****ing a drunk person. It's...uneven, and not in any way that could be fun.

[goto124]

Better safe than sorry?

[Lissou]

I dunno, I didn't see any issue with Golly's system. No is always no, and yes while drunk is only a yes if it was already a yes while sober.

Golly's system obviously worked for him and his partner at the time, which is great. Although you forgot the part (which I might be misinterpreting) that says "It's no right now, but if I change my mind while drunk it will be an actual yes, not just a drunk yes", which is the one I would have been most uncomfortable with (although depending on the time scale, I'm also uncomfortable to some extent with "I'm giving consent now in advance").

It's great if it worked for you, golly, but obviously if the idea makes me uncomfortable, then I'm not going to do it. Either party is allowed to withdraw consent for any reason, and "you've had more drinks than I'm comfortable with" is a perfectly valid reason for withdrawing consent (since everything is). That doesn't have to reflect on you personally or mean that the person doesn't trust you specifically. I'm sorry if my post hurt your feelings.

On a slightly different topic, I agree with celtois on affirmative consent. I think people who think it's impossible for it to be natural and not "break the mood" may have a distorted image of how it usually works.

[Astrella]

The thing is also that society downplays communication a lot, you know? Like to be a good lover / partner you have to magically know whatever your partner wants at all times, which is rubbish of course, good relationships are founded on communication, but I suspect the fact that consent isn't touched upon so often is related to this. Media plays into it a lot too, like, of course people think it's awkward if they are never introduced to it / never see examples of it.

[Lissou]

Yeah, the media is... very frustrating. There is that romantic ideal that you will know the perfect moment to do something, and whoever you like and likes you will want to do it at the exact same time and in the exact same way, and that any talk whatsoever just means you aren't actually meant for each other or you'd just know.

It's up there in the things that bother me with the "just keep trying to end up with someone who already said no, they'll eventually realise how awesome you are" trope that's used so often to keep the tension going. I've been re-watching Futurama, one of my favourite shows for many reasons and in many ways, but one of its flaws is that it has that in spades in many of the episodes.

Both can lead to very unhealthy behaviour from people so it's definitely a problem that they're seemingly everywhere.

[noparlpf]

Golly's system obviously worked for him and his partner at the time, which is great. Although you forgot the part (which I might be misinterpreting) that says "It's no right now, but if I change my mind while drunk it will be an actual yes, not just a drunk yes", which is the one I would have been most uncomfortable with (although depending on the time scale, I'm also uncomfortable to some extent with "I'm giving consent now in advance").

I figured that wasn't exactly "no" so much as "I'm open to the idea, but let's see where things go first."

[Jeff the Green]

Yes, I am well versed in the matters of foreplay and maintaining a mood. I was trying to come up with a way of explaining how being blunt could potentially ruin the mood you worked hard to establish and build up.

But, hey, thanks for treating me like an idiot.

Sorry, I didn't intend it that way. I meant that the fact that you have to be bubble-popping proves my point. (Quoting JNAProductions may have been more appropriate.)

I'm not always good at predicting how the way I phrase things will be interpreted or affect people. This is one of those cases.

[ThinkMinty]

Well...yes. That pretty much sums it up, really.

Huh. I didn't know I could be that laconic and still make the right amount of sense.

Also, can I sig this?

[Ravens_cry]

Question, what if you're both drunk, giggly and in no fit condition to drive and probably a little uninhibited, but not pass-out/black out drunk? My first sexual encounter was like that, I admit.:smallredface:

[JNAProductions]

Sorry, I didn't intend it that way. I meant that the fact that you have to be bubble-popping proves my point. (Quoting JNAProductions may have been more appropriate.)

I'm not always good at predicting how the way I phrase things will be interpreted or affect people. This is one of those cases.

That's a fair point about quoting me. So, apologies for that. It's really hard to interpret tone over the internet, and I'm not the best at it in person to start with.

[celtois]

Question, what if you're both drunk, giggly and in no fit condition to drive and probably a little uninhibited, but not pass-out/black out drunk? My first sexual encounter was like that, I admit.:smallredface:

Generally affirmative consent is about what works for both parties. So if both of you were enthusiastic during the encounter, and both of you felt at the time that you were in a fit state to consent. Great! :smallbiggrin:

Consent is a personal thing, since its about what you want to do with your body. So everyone will have a different comfort level. Its worth establishing that comfort level so that everyone is happy with the choice they are making. After all sexy-times should be enjoyable for both or all parties.

I'd say drunken flings are probably a bad idea simply because, unless you've talked about it before hand you won't know how your partner's views on consenting while tipsy. Far better to follow a guideline of saving drunken sexy times until both people are comfortable with each other.

This is complicated a little bit by the fact that various different places have varying legal definitions of consent. Its worth looking up the one for where you are to determine how consent is defined there. Law-obviously trumps personal preferences. So knowing the law is super important. (Hopefully that's not to close to legal advice.)

[ThinkMinty]

Generally affirmative consent is about what works for both parties. So if both of you were enthusiastic during the encounter, and both of you felt at the time that you were in a fit state to consent. Great! :smallbiggrin:

Consent is a personal thing, since its about what you want to do with your body. So everyone will have a different comfort level. Its worth establishing that comfort level so that everyone is happy with the choice they are making. After all sexy-times should be enjoyable for both or all parties.

I'd say drunken flings are probably a bad idea simply because, unless you've talked about it before hand you won't know how your partner's views on consenting while tipsy. Far better to follow a guideline of saving drunken sexy times until both people are comfortable with each other.

This is complicated a little bit by the fact that various different places have varying legal definitions of consent. Its worth looking up the one for where you are to determine how consent is defined there. Law-obviously trumps personal preferences. So knowing the law is super important. (Hopefully that's not to close to legal advice.)

I...seconded. This is what I would say on the subject if I wanted to give it more nuance than, "Consent is an inerrant prerequisite to sex."

[noparlpf]

Question, what if you're both drunk, giggly and in no fit condition to drive and probably a little uninhibited, but not pass-out/black out drunk? My first sexual encounter was like that, I admit.:smallredface:

As long as you're both still okay with it afterwards then I guess no lines have been crossed. The law is just there for when somebody isn't still okay with it afterwards.

[Lissou]

As long as you're both still okay with it afterwards then I guess no lines have been crossed. The law is just there for when somebody isn't still okay with it afterwards.

That's really why I don't like those situations. Basically, you won't know for sure until afterwards if everything was fine. So I'd rather avoid the whole thing than risk some hurt. It's one of those gray areas where nobody's a criminal or anything, but someone could get really hurt or even traumatised and you'll only realise it after the fact. So I don't really see any harm into waiting until you sober up and then seeing how you feel about it. Because if you don't feel like it anymore once you're sober, well the way I see it, good thing you didn't do anything! And if you do still feel like it once you're sober, now you get to do it, not worry about whether it's actually consensual or not, and in many cases enjoy it more because lack of coordination, slower reaction times and a potential to get sick (all side effects of alcohol) don't go that well with sexy times in the first place, in my opinion.

Alcohol simply to lose one's inhibitions, in a smaller dose, is slightly different. I guess it would be more like taking an anti-anxiety pill or something. Once you know someone enough to know how they handle alcohol, and if one glass will make them tipsy or just relaxed, for instance, you can adjust your position slightly (although even in those cases I'd be more comfortable establishing consent before the person is in that more relaxed state).

If you were both tipsy, both enthusiastic, and after the fact both glad it happened, then great! But the possibility of one or both (or more) parties wishing after the fact it had never happened, feeling terrible about the whole thing, etc, is the reason why I don't like those situations in the first place. It feels too much like you're playing the lottery with other people's feeling and vulnerability (and/or your own).

[Ravens_cry]

To be fair, you could be stone cold sober and potentially regret it after the fact, even if you were both raring to go in the moment.
As for my thing, it worked out. We did a bit more but never got serious, relationship wise.

[Dire Moose]

The thing is also that society downplays communication a lot, you know? Like to be a good lover / partner you have to magically know whatever your partner wants at all times, which is rubbish of course, good relationships are founded on communication, but I suspect the fact that consent isn't touched upon so often is related to this. Media plays into it a lot too, like, of course people think it's awkward if they are never introduced to it / never see examples of it.

This sums up a lot of my issues with relationships. I really have no idea what I'm doing most of the time. I've tried to do what I assume people are supposed to do: ask someone out for something fun once or twice, if it works out tell them I like them, then try to work from there. And if I'm turned down because of scheduling issues, I don't know how to suggest alternatives without sounding too persistent and therefore creepy. In reality I have no idea how to approach someone about starting a relationship; I'm just copying what I've seen and likely doing a bad job of it.

Then it falls apart, though. Most of my prospective partners just sit there expecting me to initiate everything (the ones I've gotten that far with were all female and most played by the "men act, women respond" rule). They give off nothing to indicate the kind of advances they want me to make, but I'm sure they want me to do something instead of sitting there like an idiot. And my attempts at doing something always seem to drive them away. It's like they expect me to instinctively know when to act and what level of action to take, by reading some kind of nonverbal cues. If I take no action, they will likely assume that I'm not serious, and if I do take action, they panic at my being "too fast" and leave me.

[celtois]

To be fair, you could be stone cold sober and potentially regret it after the fact, even if you were both raring to go in the moment.

Totally, regrets are pretty much a by-product of living.
While both parties giving enthusiastic consent may result in less situations that people regret;
consent is really just about not violating the agency of another person. Which is the most basic prerequisite to sexy times.

Consent is about taking an active role in a situation, and the responsibility for that role. There are tons of mental states you could be in where you could say, "Hey look, I'm not really in a mental state to consent right now". Maybe you're too tired to process the implications of your decisions, maybe you're feeling totally over the moon and know that you just cannot evaluate the situation, maybe you're drunk. Everyone has to figure out what sort of states they feel like they are capable of making decisions in. For some people they're happy to grant themselves agency and the ability to consent in just about any mental state. Others prefer to leave consent to mental states where they feel more calm and collected.

This is a really long way of saying I agree with you. Regret doesn't imply lack of enthusiastic consent. Because consent is kind of this separate thing which deals with when you are willing to take an active role in a situation and responsibility for the outcomes of doing so.

@Dire Moose

If you find it difficult to follow the non-verbal social cues you suspect that you are being given. Best thing to do is ask, and ask whenever you need to.
There are two possible outcomes.
i) The person finds asking really weird and doesn't want to deal with that. This is actually good news. You know you find reading non-verbal cues hard, dating someone who doesn't want to give verbal cues even when asked about them is going to result in problems down the line. Because they will always expect you to be reading their non-verbal cues and getting upset when you don't.
ii) The person doesn't mind and is happy to answer your questions and you can build something together. Where both you, and them are getting your needs met. This is a good thing, sure, you might never have the "movie perfect" relationship where you can instantly read each other's desires. But hey, for most people that's unrealistic anyway, and attempting to follow that example results in strife. Instead you'll have a relationship built around mutual understanding which is a far more stable relationship long term. Its worth finding someone who doesn't mind you communicating about your needs, and doesn't mind communicating their needs.

II is possible and worth trying to find. Admittedly this is probably better fodder for the relationship thread. But hey, its here, so the answer can go here. :smallbiggrin:

[genderlich]

This sums up a lot of my issues with relationships. I really have no idea what I'm doing most of the time. I've tried to do what I assume people are supposed to do: ask someone out for something fun once or twice, if it works out tell them I like them, then try to work from there. And if I'm turned down because of scheduling issues, I don't know how to suggest alternatives without sounding too persistent and therefore creepy. In reality I have no idea how to approach someone about starting a relationship; I'm just copying what I've seen and likely doing a bad job of it.

Same. Usually I'm too nervous to actually ask cause of these thoughts. Doesn't help that I only ever get the desire to go out with someone after we've already become friends - I don't know how dating strangers is even supposed to work, that seems so incredibly awkward to me. Plus my confidence is shot to hell from rejections, it honestly makes it hard for me to even imagine that I could ever be in a relationship - I can't think of a way it would actually happen.

............

Oh right, the thing I actually came to talk about.

The book we're using for this queer studies class, Victory by Linda Hirshman, is terrible. It's not a single bit intersectional, paying no more than very brief mentions to any queer story or identity other than cis white gay men and sometimes lesbians. Hell, the chapter on Stonewall doesn't even mention Sylvia Rivera. Fortunately our professor is aware of this and is using it as an opportunity to foster classroom discussion of trans and intersectiona issues and how they can be ignored within the community and by allies, so, good on her.

[lio45]

And if I'm turned down because of scheduling issues, I don't know how to suggest alternatives without sounding too persistent and therefore creepy.

That's normal: there's no way to do that that doesn't sound persistent and creepy. The courted party invoking scheduling issues without also suggesting ways around those scheduling issues (therefore leaving it a dead end and apparently content to do so) is just a more circuitous and diplomatic manner of flat out declining, hopefully (from their point of view) once and for all.

[Grytorm]

I really wish people weren't circumspect about rejection. Its an especially terrible idea when involving someone who isn't the best at reading social messages and has a bad habit of developing crushes and takes a while to work up the nerve to ask.

[ThinkMinty]

I really wish people weren't circumspect about rejection. Its an especially terrible idea when involving someone who isn't the best at reading social messages and has a bad habit of developing crushes and takes a while to work up the nerve to ask.

I try my best to be clear about everything, because being honest is both the right thing to do, and more fun.

[celtois]

That's normal: there's no way to do that that doesn't sound persistent and creepy. The courted party invoking scheduling issues without also suggesting ways around those scheduling issues (therefore leaving it a dead end and apparently content to do so) is just a more circuitous and diplomatic manner of flat out declining, hopefully (from their point of view) once and for all.

This is basically correct.
However, if you've already worked up the courage to ask the person to go on a date, and you know your mind won't rest until you have a definitive answer. Than you're already prepared to handle rejection. A non-creepy way to get a solid yes or no would be to ask:
"Is there another time that works for you, or was that a 'no, I'm not interested'."
(or) depending on what you want to lead with
"Is that 'No, I'm not interested', or is there another day we go could go out?"

If they aren't interested, (which they probably aren't if they haven't given you a suggestion of a way to fix the scheduling problem ) you've given them an out, which makes it less awkward than just asking if another time works. It will likely still be a bit awkward, but hey you'll have a definitive answer.

Yes, it would be nice if people would just have the stone to give solid rejections, given that you've worked up the courage to face one. But since you might not get one, be prepared to ask for a solid answer.

(Edit: Some people actually are oblivious enough to shut you down by invoking scheduling issues, despite being interested without offering an alternate time. Which is the whole reason its worth asking either question, rather than just assuming it is a no, aside from a desire for a definitive answer. )


Edit the Second:

Since I feel like I'm drifting slightly off topic with the above, and I haven't seen anyone mention it yet.
Happy Bi-sexuality awareness week to everyone! (It started on Sunday)
http://www.bisexualweek.com/about/
Wednesday (Today if most timezones)
Is Celebrate Bisexuality Day

http://www.autostraddle.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/bisexual-umbrella-640x563.jpg

[Lissou]

If someone rejects you saying they can't that day, you can ask "oh, okay, what day works for you then?" and if they say that really they're too busy right now, they don't have the time, then you should drop it. I've had times when I thought I was being rejected and it turned out there was actually a scheduling issue and they had no idea I was asking them out in the first place rather than wanting to hang out as friends. On the other hand, if they don't offer their availability, then yeah, drop it. If they actually had scheduling issues, when they become available they'll be the one to contact you (believe it or not, that too has happened to me. 2-3 months down the lines "hey, I've got some free time now, you still up for hanging out?"). And if they did have scheduling issues but don't think to contact you once they get some free time, then obviously they didn't want to be with you this much in the first place, and that still pretty much counts as a "no" anyways.

But I agree, I wish people could just reject someone by saying "I'm not interested in you". I understand why a lot of people don't do that (fear of hurting the other person's feelings and losing them as a friend, fear of the other person getting upset and drama or worse ensuing, wanting to keep your options open if you're interested later on...) but I wish things were different. Sometimes it's very difficult to tell "I've just been rejected" from "they didn't realise I was asking them out". I used to think "oh, they do realise, they just want to make sure things aren't awkward, it was a rejection" but I've had too many guys tell me after the fact that no, they had absolutely no idea I was asking them out. So now... I end up being super awkward and asking for a specific answer, and yeah, I know it makes people uncomfortable but at least after that you can move on.

[Heliomance]

The frustrations of being a lesbian in an office that's like 90% men. Not only are there no dating prospects, there's not even any other women to just chat to >_>

[SowZ]

Question, what if you're both drunk, giggly and in no fit condition to drive and probably a little uninhibited, but not pass-out/black out drunk? My first sexual encounter was like that, I admit.:smallredface:

I wouldn't be comfortable with it personally, unless we were dating and had discussed such a scenario beforehand, but if you both felt fine and were still capable of rational thought? Like, if neither of you regreted it I see no reason to feel badly about it at all.

[Coidzor]

Question, what if you're both drunk, giggly and in no fit condition to drive and probably a little uninhibited, but not pass-out/black out drunk? My first sexual encounter was like that, I admit.:smallredface:

I'm too busy living my own life to chastise people for having sex they both wanted, enjoyed, and neither later regretted enough to make an issue of it the next day, week, month, or year. So, good for you, hooray, I suppose? :smallconfused:

I guess there's an argument somewhere that part of a woman's right to own her sexuality is her ability to choose to be able to get drunk with who she wants to get drunk and have sex with somewhere in all this. At any rate, I'm not comfortable telling a woman she can't have sex with her gedonkle or whatever after they've been drinking.

This is definitely one situation where being anything other than a man going after a woman greatly simplifies the matter, though, since aside from particular personal issues such as what golentan mentioned in his example, there's not nearly the baggage or amount of concerns when one is woman, going after a person of the same sex, or both.

[TaiLiu]

...
Oh, Celtois! Good to see you again!

[Heliomance]

So this is a thing. (http://www.ijreview.com/2015/09/424875-disney-just-made-controversial-decision-comes-kids-halloween-costumes) On the one hand, go Disney! On the other... there are actually people complaining that Disney aren't specifying "this is for boys" and "this is for girls" anymore? If it's something that matters to you, why on earth do you need Disney to tell you that the dresses are for girls? Are they afraid that they'll get confused and accidentally buy little Timmy a fairy costume or something?

[KyooTrap]

My first day at my new job was yesterday... Probably saw hundreds of customers and most of them gendered me male even when I didn't talk :/ the only person to use she/her for me was my manager who I asked if I could change my gender in the system, not even my coworkers did. It was pretty crushing, at my last job I got through it by just dissociating for most of the shift and I was hoping that wouldn't have to happen anymore. Maybe my next job will be better..

[celtois]

Oh, Celtois! Good to see you again!
Thanks, its nice to see you again too. I'm prone to disappearing :smallredface:


My first day at my new job was yesterday... Probably saw hundreds of customers and most of them gendered me male even when I didn't talk :/ the only person to use she/her for me was my manager who I asked if I could change my gender in the system, not even my coworkers did. It was pretty crushing, at my last job I got through it by just dissociating for most of the shift and I was hoping that wouldn't have to happen anymore. Maybe my next job will be better..
Aww, :smallfrown:. That sounds really frustrating. I imagine you cannot do much about the customers. But do you think you could talk with your co-workers about pronouns? Or have your manger do so?

If you've decided the job isn't worth it, I wish you all the best finding another job. I hope you are able to find something where you don't have to dissociate yourself everything you go to work. :smallfrown:

[Astrella]

My first day at my new job was yesterday... Probably saw hundreds of customers and most of them gendered me male even when I didn't talk :/ the only person to use she/her for me was my manager who I asked if I could change my gender in the system, not even my coworkers did. It was pretty crushing, at my last job I got through it by just dissociating for most of the shift and I was hoping that wouldn't have to happen anymore. Maybe my next job will be better..

Store worker clothes tend to be really unflattering which doesn't help. :? (Get it a lot myself), maybe wearing a hairband or something else that hints "hey, girl here", could help?

[ThinkMinty]

So this is a thing. (http://www.ijreview.com/2015/09/424875-disney-just-made-controversial-decision-comes-kids-halloween-costumes) On the one hand, go Disney! On the other... there are actually people complaining that Disney aren't specifying "this is for boys" and "this is for girls" anymore?

I'm always amused by the people who are dumb enough to care about which is for who, but too lazy to put any effort into their stupidity and demand everyone else accommodate their terrible decisions.


If it's something that matters to you, why on earth do you need Disney to tell you that the dresses are for girls? Are they afraid that they'll get confused and accidentally buy little Timmy a fairy costume or something?

Accidentally? Lil' Timmy wants to be the most prettiest, most badassest crossdressing fairy prince he can be. Most of his little friends are girls, and he wants to fit in at the tea parties and to fit in, he's gotta be decked out in bows, frills, and glitter. He needs that fairy costume so he can get precocious smooches from the girl he likes.

...wow, I made this hypothetical kid sound really cool.

[Lentrax]

That's assuming he wants to be a girl fairy.

Maybe he just wants to be a boy fairy (They have a two gendered biology, too) and a Tinker Bell costume lets him be lazy with the prep work... I mean, jeez dad, it may not be that he wants to wear a dress, but he wants to just be a fairy alright?

[golentan]

That's assuming he wants to be a girl fairy.

Maybe he just wants to be a boy fairy (They have a two gendered biology, too) and a Tinker Bell costume lets him be lazy with the prep work... I mean, jeez dad, it may not be that he wants to wear a dress, but he wants to just be a fairy alright?

NO SON OF MINE WILL BE A FAIRY FOR HALLOWEEN! Fairy is far too general a term, and I will insist any child learn enough comparative mythology and fantasy lit to at least be a Pixie, Nymph, Grig, or some other specific group.

Tinker bell costume should be fine for Pixies, though.

[Lentrax]

Geez, dad. will ya lay off, and let me generalize once in a while?

[LaZodiac]

Yo guys here's a thing that's probably relevant to your interests. (https://twitter.com/LurkingWind/status/647225188782747648)

Those of you not super interested in clicking, it's a Trans person I know on Twitter who's doing a sort of project "regarding the treatment of Trans people in public"

Y'all might have some interesting stories to contribute and stuff.

[Grytorm]

Does anyone else often have a lot of anxiety when talking to people online, often from this thread? Oftentimes when I recieve a message I am scared that whoever I am talking to will hate me and be deeply offended by my attempts to communicate with them.

I'm pretty certain I have posted that here before. Also I need to talk about other anxieties some other time.

[alaalba_123]

Yo guys here's a thing that's probably relevant to your interests. (https://twitter.com/LurkingWind/status/647225188782747648)

Those of you not super interested in clicking, it's a Trans person I know on Twitter who's doing a sort of project "regarding the treatment of Trans people in public"

Y'all might have some interesting stories to contribute and stuff.

I crossdress in public, and almost universally get negative reactions. It's not exactly a trans issue, but I feel it's related, at least tangentially.Recently, at my college campus, somebody was making fun of me for wearing girls pants, and then I pulled out and a lit a clove. The following exchange happened.

Him: "You like smoking those?"
Me:"Yup."
Him:"Really? You smoke pole too?"
Me:"Yup."

He seemed shocked, and everybody else there suddenly felt the need to comment. I was largely bemused by the whole thing.

[LaZodiac]

I crossdress in public, and almost universally get negative reactions. It's not exactly a trans issue, but I feel it's related, at least tangentially.Recently, at my college campus, somebody was making fun of me for wearing girls pants, and then I pulled out and a lit a clove. The following exchange happened.

Him: "You like smoking those?"
Me:"Yup."
Him:"Really? You smoke pole too?"
Me:"Yup."

He seemed shocked, and everybody else there suddenly felt the need to comment. I was largely bemused by the whole thing.

Well don't tell me tell my friend who's in the linked tweet!

[alaalba_123]

Well don't tell me tell my friend who's in the linked tweet! I don't use twitter, and my Google Plus has my real name attached and I prefer not to associate it with any issues that could be seen as politically or sexually charged. Especially because I'm using it to build a portfolio for my planned career, and I live in Texas.

[Rain Dragon]

If you want to, you should be able to sign out then modify it anonymously I think. I can't check at the moment as I'm on my tablet, though.

[Lissou]

Does anyone else often have a lot of anxiety when talking to people online, often from this thread? Oftentimes when I recieve a message I am scared that whoever I am talking to will hate me and be deeply offended by my attempts to communicate with them.

I'm pretty certain I have posted that here before. Also I need to talk about other anxieties some other time.

Often on forums in general, or on sites like reddit for instance, I get really scared when there are new answers to threads I contributed to because I worry about what response I might receive for something I posted. Most of the time people aren't responding to me in the first place, and when they are, it's rarely a huge argument thing (even where some disagreement occurs) but I still sometimes don't check a thread for days after I made a post because I get so worried about the responses I'll get.

So yeah, I can relate to that, definitely (although this thread definitely isn't one of the top offenders for me personally).

[ThinkMinty]

NO SON OF MINE WILL BE A FAIRY FOR HALLOWEEN! Fairy is far too general a term, and I will insist any child learn enough comparative mythology and fantasy lit to at least be a Pixie, Nymph, Grig, or some other specific group.

Tinker bell costume should be fine for Pixies, though.

**** that noise, I'mma be a Redcap, an Imp, a Gremlin, a Spriggan, or a Sylph. Somethin' that'll put the trick in trick or treat.

[KyooTrap]

Thanks, its nice to see you again too. I'm prone to disappearing :smallredface:


Aww, :smallfrown:. That sounds really frustrating. I imagine you cannot do much about the customers. But do you think you could talk with your co-workers about pronouns? Or have your manger do so?

If you've decided the job isn't worth it, I wish you all the best finding another job. I hope you are able to find something where you don't have to dissociate yourself everything you go to work. :smallfrown:


Store worker clothes tend to be really unflattering which doesn't help. :? (Get it a lot myself), maybe wearing a hairband or something else that hints "hey, girl here", could help?

Today was a lot better! My manager asked if I had a preferred name too and that helped a lot, I think from now forward it'll be a lot better :) and we have to order shoes for work and the ones I got are pretty girly ^_^

[TaiLiu]

Thanks, its nice to see you again too. I'm prone to disappearing :smallredface:

Oh, you also remember me. What a lovely bonus!

What have you been up to while you were away?

[golentan]

Oh, you also remember me. What a lovely bonus!

What have you been up to while you were away?

:smalleek::eek::biggrin:

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?!

[Jeff the Green]

Does anyone else often have a lot of anxiety when talking to people online, often from this thread? Oftentimes when I recieve a message I am scared that whoever I am talking to will hate me and be deeply offended by my attempts to communicate with them.

I'm pretty certain I have posted that here before. Also I need to talk about other anxieties some other time.

A bit, yeah. I have social anxiety that's much worse offline, but I do occasionally get a freak out that I've seriously messed up, been excessively me-focused in a thread where I'm supposed to be an ally, or inadvertently say something hurtful. Because I'm not really a native to LGBTQ discussions, nor a thoroughly integrated immigrant (to stretch a metaphor to breaking), but it matters a lot to me, this is the thread where it comes up most. You're certainly not alone there.

[Coidzor]

That's assuming he wants to be a girl fairy.

Maybe he just wants to be a boy fairy (They have a two gendered biology, too) and a Tinker Bell costume lets him be lazy with the prep work... I mean, jeez dad, it may not be that he wants to wear a dress, but he wants to just be a fairy alright?

Hold the phone, when did Disney add male fairies to their canon? :smallconfused:

[Lissou]

Hold the phone, when did Disney add male fairies to their canon? :smallconfused:

Well, I was tutoring a girl, and as part of the tutoring she needed to read at least one chapter of a book a day, and I needed to ask her questions about it, so I needed to read it too. The first book she read was a Disney book set in Neverland, with Tinkerbell as one of the characters. There were male fairies, too. So I don't know when they were added, but I know they exist in canon.

[TaiLiu]

:smalleek::eek::biggrin:

WHERE HAVE YOU BEEN?!
Oh, you know: general busyness here and there. I'm pleasantly surprised you remember me! How have you been?

[Ifni]

Often on forums in general, or on sites like reddit for instance, I get really scared when there are new answers to threads I contributed to because I worry about what response I might receive for something I posted. Most of the time people aren't responding to me in the first place, and when they are, it's rarely a huge argument thing (even where some disagreement occurs) but I still sometimes don't check a thread for days after I made a post because I get so worried about the responses I'll get.

So yeah, I can relate to that, definitely (although this thread definitely isn't one of the top offenders for me personally).

Yep, I do exactly the same thing, although not particularly more with this thread than with others. For example, OOC arguments in PbP games are a pretty effective way of killing my enthusiasm and involvement in said game; I'll post my thoughts and then not read the thread for a week because I don't feel like looking at hostile responses. Which of course means I'm not reading all the other game-related announcements and discussion for that week.

[golentan]

Oh, you know: general busyness here and there. I'm pleasantly surprised you remember me! How have you been?

Finished up school, found a vet hospital I think looks good and start work in a couple of weeks, madly in love with Miraqariftsky (met here on the forum, been corresponding and dating since). You?

[squidbreath]

Hi there, does anyone know where the prismatic spray image on the first page comes from?

[JNAProductions]

The Giant made it in celebration of the US legalizing gay marriage.

[GrayGriffin]

Well, I was tutoring a girl, and as part of the tutoring she needed to read at least one chapter of a book a day, and I needed to ask her questions about it, so I needed to read it too. The first book she read was a Disney book set in Neverland, with Tinkerbell as one of the characters. There were male fairies, too. So I don't know when they were added, but I know they exist in canon.

Boy fairies are in the original Peter Pan books, as a matter of fact. Along with nonbinary ones.

[Grytorm]

Now to talk about another thing that worries me. I don't really understand who I am after a year of worry. I've dressed as a girl several times, but always fairly timidly while my parents were away, I've never been able to tell them. And not that often. I have a few people who are really supportive and I'm glad they are there but things are still hard. I don't know what I want to do.

[ThinkMinty]

Boy fairies are in the original Peter Pan books, as a matter of fact. Along with nonbinary ones.

Nonbinary ones? It's not that I don't believe you, I just haven't read them.

[Astrella]

@ThinkMinty:


"There are always a lot of young ones," explained Wendy, who was now quite an authority, "because you see when a new baby laughs for the first time a new fairy is born, and as there are always new babies there are always new fairies. They live in nests on the tops of trees; and the mauve ones are boys and the white ones are girls, and the blue ones are just little sillies who are not sure what they are."
- J.M. Barry, Peter Pan

[ThinkMinty]

@ThinkMinty:

Thanks, Astrella.

[SowZ]

Now to talk about another thing that worries me. I don't really understand who I am after a year of worry. I've dressed as a girl several times, but always fairly timidly while my parents were away, I've never been able to tell them. And not that often. I have a few people who are really supportive and I'm glad they are there but things are still hard. I don't know what I want to do.

Do you think you're genderqueer?

[Heliomance]

So I'm at a party with my old uni friends, so I've not seen for months, and the guys have started flirting with me :smallredface:

[JNAProductions]

Then what are you doing here on GitP? That's awesome, go socialize!

[golentan]

So I'm at a party with my old uni friends, so I've not seen for months, and the guys have started flirting with me :smallredface:

I'm trying to think of a way to say "duh" while sounding supportive, but... I can't. So... "Duh?" Supportively.

Long as they're being nice and not giving you unwanted attention, good on you, have fun!

[Heliomance]

Then what are you doing here on GitP? That's awesome, go socialize!

I was flagging and thinking of leaving by that point, no energy left to socialise. I go sleep now. *falls unconscious*

[ThinkMinty]

So I'm at a party with my old uni friends, so I've not seen for months, and the guys have started flirting with me :smallredface:

You're nice, have fairy wings, hair down to the floor, and are (if I recall) some kinda British. The flirting thing kinda explains itself.

[Thufir]

You're nice, have fairy wings, hair down to the floor, and are (if I recall) some kinda British. The flirting thing kinda explains itself.

Strangely enough, being British isn't that likely to make people flirt with you in Britain...
In general though, I register my lack of surprise alongside Golly's. If they're the kind of guys to be flirty, it should be expected that at least some of them will flirt with one of the prettiest girls they know

[Lentrax]

Considering how attractive Tamsin is, I think the more I organs question to ask is, why weren't more people flirting with her?

[ThinkMinty]

Strangely enough, being British isn't that likely to make people flirt with you in Britain...

That was my personal reasoning; I dunno what those dudes were after. Maybe her butt's really cute? I haven't seen it, so it's entirely speculative booty astronomy at this point.

"Speculative booty astronomy" is probably inappropriate, but the phrase "speculative booty astronomy" is just too fun to say for me to stop.

[JNAProductions]

I believe when we last left off, we were all excited for Heliomance/Tamsin.

I, for one, would love to hear some more details whenever she comes back on. That's some exciting news!

{scrubbed}

[Lentrax]

I believe when we last left off, we were all excited for Heliomance/Tamsin.

I, for one, would love to hear some more details whenever she comes back on. That's some exciting news!

It is, even though IIRC it is not in her particular orientation, it must be nice to be flirted with as your true self.

[golentan]

Replaying borderlands 2 these days. I'm reminded how great all the queer throw-ins are. They tend not to slap you in the face with "so and so is gay," it just turns out to be part of the character. Like the recorded messages around the Hyperion Game Preserve where you find out the scientist in charge of all the immoral human experiments objected to being forced to do all the immoral human experiments and is threatened by the villain, who tells her, "Hey, remember that pretty little wife of yours that you wanted to see, EVER again?" Or Sir Hammerlock referring to an old boyfriend. Or Mr Torgue, Paragon of Masculinity, finding you VERY ATTRACTIVE, regardless of your gender. Or...

[Lentrax]

Mister Torgue was probably just talking to that sweet, sexy pile of munitions you carry around.

He is some form of explosive pyrophiliac.

[golentan]

Mister Torgue was probably just talking to that sweet, sexy pile of munitions you carry around.

He is some form of explosive pyrophiliac.

Word of god (and his Reddit AMA) say otherwise: Mr. Torgue is Bisexual. Offhand, I'd say he's a butt man, because really can you see him settling for anything less than a perfect Badass?

Incidentally, cuz the developers did AMAs for a number of characters, we also know Handsome Jacks' middle name is Newustationsarentcanon. It's german. Apparently.

[Lentrax]

Word of god (and his Reddit AMA) say otherwise: Mr. Torgue is Bisexual. Offhand, I'd say he's a butt man, because really can you see him settling for anything less than a perfect Badass?

Incidentally, cuz the developers did AMAs for a number of characters, we also know Handsome Jacks' middle name is Newustationsarentcanon. It's german. Apparently.

Did not actually know that.

Still say he's an EXPLOSIONphiliac though. Cause he's always up for a good bang.:smallcool:

[Heliomance]

I believe when we last left off, we were all excited for Heliomance/Tamsin.

I, for one, would love to hear some more details whenever she comes back on. That's some exciting news!

Edit: With Drack's last post, I don't think they're a troll, I just think they're misguided. T'ain't nothing wrong with that, and they seem nice enough.

Not many more details to give. I was flirted with, by multiple (two is multiple) guys that knew me pre-transition. It was equal parts flattering and bemusing. There's not really any more to the tale :P

[JNAProductions]

Well, either way, it's still fantastic news, and we're all happy for you.

[Haruki-kun]

The Winged Mod: Thread Re-opened upon review.

Everyone, remember that we have rules on these boards regarding posting etiquette. Regardless of how you may feel about issues on a personal level, please do not attack, insult, or belittle other posters. This includes accusations of trolling: please don't.

[Dire Moose]

Yo guys here's a thing that's probably relevant to your interests. (https://twitter.com/LurkingWind/status/647225188782747648)

Those of you not super interested in clicking, it's a Trans person I know on Twitter who's doing a sort of project "regarding the treatment of Trans people in public"

Y'all might have some interesting stories to contribute and stuff.

I put several suggestions on there, including this one:


Your partner’s parents refuse to use any pronouns to refer to you and insist on using “partner” instead of “boyfriend/girlfriend.”

That's really what my dad did four years ago regarding my ex-girlfriend from back then.

[goto124]

My workplace blocks Twitter (but not GitP :smalltongue:). If I may ask, what type of Trans is that Transperson?

[Dire Moose]

My workplace blocks Twitter (but not GitP :smalltongue:). If I may ask, what type of Trans is that Transperson?

Male to female.

[TaiLiu]

Finished up school, found a vet hospital I think looks good and start work in a couple of weeks, madly in love with Miraqariftsky (met here on the forum, been corresponding and dating since). You?
Oh, right: you're a vet tech now, right? Congratulations, and congratulations on your relationship! May you two have many happy years together! :smallsmile:

As for me: right now, I'm trying to get a part-time job teaching precollegiate philosophy. Fingers crossed!

[Serpentine]

I remembered the show I was thinking about before! It's called Please Like Me (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/pleaselikeme/), a sort of coming-of-age drama-comedy about a young man working out his sexuality, etc. It's the brainchild of a gay Australian comedian called Josh Thomas, who brought us such gems as "homosexuals in northern Queensland, they exist. There's an app called Grindr. I'll put it on your phone (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wce7-cnaxE)" and this:

http://i.imgur.com/gZaYOXa.jpg

Anyone know it? I think it'd be worth a look if you're interested.

[Astrella]

I found a trans woman (https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Aid_Worker_Sya) in Guild Wars 2 randomly wandering around Lion's Arch. Game also has a canon lesbian couple featuring two main characters. I like representation handled well. :)

[Ravens_cry]

That's rather neat, though, like with El Goonish Shive, it's hard not to feel at least a hint burning jealousy for people who can use magic to get the body they need.

[JNAProductions]

How I wish the T-Gun was a real thing.

[Ravens_cry]

How I wish the T-Gun was a real thing.
Or if I could have a stoner angel to misfile my cosmic paper work. The T-Gun would be better though, yes. Yay gender fluidity.

[Heliomance]

So yesterday I met a new friend for the second time, went ad had dinner with her, and discovered that apparently I pass well enough that she'd honestly had no idea I was trans!

[The Bandicoot]

Hello, long time lurker but first time poster in this thread.

I just wanted to say that while I've always been open minded, it's this thread and its stories that has allowed me to open up and admit my own sexuality to myself. Despite not knowing exactly what to call it(if I had to give it a name I'd say pan with medium straight leanings), it's still refreshing to admit it to myself.

[Dire Moose]

Hello, long time lurker but first time poster in this thread.

I just wanted to say that while I've always been open minded, it's this thread and its stories that has allowed me to open up and admit my own sexuality to myself. Despite not knowing exactly what to call it(if I had to give it a name I'd say pan with medium straight leanings), it's still refreshing to admit it to myself.

*GLOMP!*

Welcome to the thread!

[Kittenwolf]

That's rather neat, though, like with El Goonish Shive, it's hard not to feel at least a hint burning jealousy for people who can use magic to get the body they need.

Amen to that! Why haven't we developed magic powers yet, no fair :(


So yesterday I met a new friend for the second time, went ad had dinner with her, and discovered that apparently I pass well enough that she'd honestly had no idea I was trans!

Awesome! Huzzah for new friends and confidence boosts :)

[The Bandicoot]

*GLOMP!*

Welcome to the thread!

I feel entirely TOO welcome being rainbow-glomped by a giant moose. :biggrin:

[Ravens_cry]

Taste the Rainbow:smallbiggrin:
Also, welcome to the thread. The more the merrier.

[The Bandicoot]

Thanks for the welcome guys. I'm feeling all the rainbow fluffy love. :smallbiggrin:

[celtois]

Oh, you also remember me. What a lovely bonus!

What have you been up to while you were away?
Sorry about the delay. As I said, prone to disappearing. (I was actually travelling to I even have an excuse this time :smalltongue: )
I've mostly been finishing my undergrad thesis, followed by travelling & hunting for jobs in the summer.

Best of luck with getting a philosophy position, I know how hard those can be to get!


Welcome Hipho, congratulations on the epiphany. Learning/admitting things about oneself if quite exciting. :smallbiggrin:

[Rain Dragon]

As for me: right now, I'm trying to get a part-time job teaching precollegiate philosophy. Fingers crossed!

Hellu TaiLiu!
Yes. /crosses fingers


Thanks for the welcome guys. I'm feeling all the rainbow fluffy love. :smallbiggrin:

Welcome! :smallbiggrin:

[Skeppio]

As for me: right now, I'm trying to get a part-time job teaching precollegiate philosophy. Fingers crossed!

Best of luck! :smallbiggrin:

[JusticeZero]

Your partner’s parents refuse to use any pronouns to refer to you and insist on using “partner” instead of “boyfriend/girlfriend.”That's really what my dad did four years ago regarding my ex-girlfriend from back then.
Isn't that good? Or am I hanging with too many enbys? And not understanding the scenario?

[Astrella]

Isn't that good? Or am I hanging with too many enbys? And not understanding the scenario?

His dad was refusing to acknowledge his former girlfriends' gender?

[noparlpf]

It's like three quarters transphobia (refusing to acknowledge the individual's gender) and one quarter homophobia (queer relationships are perceived as less than straight/cis relationships so they're "partners" and not boyfriends/girlfriends).

For some people, especially some non-binary people, "partner" may well be the preferred term, but think of it like this: Say you have a non-binary friend who likes the term "enbyfriend" and their SO's family insists on calling them a "partner" and by gendered pronouns instead.

[Dire Moose]

Yes, the issue was that I was dating a woman, and as such she should have been referred to with female pronouns. The proper term for her in this relationship was "girlfriend." But because my dad did not see her that way regardless of what I tried to impress on him, he basically used gender-neutral terms out of defiance.

Also, simply not understanding is one thing, but he even stated that he didn't want to understand.

And now that you mention it, both of my parents were devaluing the relationship. My mom, despite using the right pronouns, had to be reminded that we were more than just friends on a regular basis. When I went off to get my geology degree during that time, someone mentioned something like "He'll meet a local girl and fall in love, and he'll be gone." My mom laughed but made no attempt to bring up the fact that I was already seeing someone. At that point, I intervened and reminded her that I was already in a relationship, to which she responded with something like "Ok, I suppose she is more than a friend, something like a romantic partner."

Yes, their behavior during that relationship was really frustrating. I don't suppose there's any better way I could have handled this?

[TaiLiu]

Sorry about the delay. As I said, prone to disappearing. (I was actually travelling to I even have an excuse this time :smalltongue: )
I've mostly been finishing my undergrad thesis, followed by travelling & hunting for jobs in the summer.
Oh, that's wonderful! What was your thesis on?

Hellu TaiLiu!
Hello Rain Dragon!

Best of luck with getting a philosophy position, I know how hard those can be to get!

Yes. /crosses fingers

Best of luck! :smallbiggrin:
Thanks for your support, everyone! :smallsmile:

[Killer Angel]

When I went off to get my geology degree during that time,

Another geologist! wonderful. :smallwink:



Yes, their behavior during that relationship was really frustrating.

To be fair, parents' (and relatives) behavior is often frustrating, when we're talking about relationships.
"when you will decide to engage someone?"
"Hi! are you finally fiance? No? what do you expect?"
and...
"Do what you want, but I don't agree"
"She's a good person, but I don't like this and that"

All I can do, is to hug you out of sympathy. :smallsmile:

[Athedia]

I know that every time I bring up relationships or the fact I want kids my mom gives me a look and asks if I understand that having bio kids requires the dreaded S word (or more expensive treatments). I keep trying to explain that I am not averse, it just doesn't pop into my head as necessary for my attraction to someone. I still don't know if she gets it. *sigh*

[Lissou]

I was all "what's the dreaded S word? Adoption starts with an A. Surrogacy maybe?" then I realised you probably meant "sex".

Parents can have a lot of trouble understanding their kids. Sometimes it feels like they can't imagine their child being right about something if they (the parent) don't feel the same way.

[Orcus The Vile]

Parents can have a lot of trouble understanding their kids. Sometimes it feels like they can't imagine their child being right about something if they (the parent) don't feel the same way.

Can you really blame them? Would you not do the same?

[golentan]

Anyone live along california's central coast? I've started freaking out about finding housing now, and I'm on a deadline...

[Astrella]

I found this neat read (http://kinkandcode.com/trans-woman-12-things-learned-in-first-12-months-with-vagina/) by a trans woman after her surgery, might be helpful for other trans women here.

[golentan]

Can you really blame them? Would you not do the same?

Yes I can blame them, no I wouldn't do the same on a thing which is closer to my child's heart or which they have studied more.

My family has a tradition of deferring to other family members. My father is the one people turn to about computers and economics, he has studied them at great length. My mother gets logical reasoning and statistics. My sister gets general math and healthcare logistics. My aunt, business acumen and hiring practices. My grandma, historical facts and desserts. My uncle, music and language. My other uncle, military service. Myself, I'm Biology and queer knowledge.


I know that every time I bring up relationships or the fact I want kids my mom gives me a look and asks if I understand that having bio kids requires the dreaded S word (or more expensive treatments). I keep trying to explain that I am not averse, it just doesn't pop into my head as necessary for my attraction to someone. I still don't know if she gets it. *sigh*

There's always also In Vitro or (not to be gross) the dollar store method that is the Turkey Baster.

[Orcus The Vile]

Yes I can blame them, no I wouldn't do the same on a thing which is closer to my child's heart or which they have studied more.

My family has a tradition of deferring to other family members. My father is the one people turn to about computers and economics, he has studied them at great length. My mother gets logical reasoning and statistics. My sister gets general math and healthcare logistics. My aunt, business acumen and hiring practices. My grandma, historical facts and desserts. My uncle, music and language. My other uncle, military service. Myself, I'm Biology and queer knowledge.



There's always also In Vitro or (not to be gross) the dollar store method that is the Turkey Baster.

I meant the "it feels like they can't imagine their child being right about something if they (the parent) don't feel the same way." part. Like if you had a homophobic kid would you not try to change his mind? Or if he/she dated someone who hates fantasy.

[Lissou]

I would try to change views I consider harmful to others, or at the very least warn my kid about it. Homophobia is a form of bigotry, I would want my child not to get involved with bigots or be one.

As far as the kid's orientation, or taste in book/movie genres, favourite subject at school, etc, I don't see how that's relevant. Even less so if it's the person they're dating.

[Athedia]

Yeah, but I am not averse to sex and to be honest it seems less disgusting than the dollar store method and less expensive than in vitro. And I would probably enjoy it... but this is all theoretical at the moment... I don't even have a SO right now.

[golentan]

Yeah, but I am not averse to sex and to be honest it seems less disgusting than the dollar store method and less expensive than in vitro. And I would probably enjoy it... but this is all theoretical at the moment... I don't even have a SO right now.

Fear not good lady! It will happen so long as you want it to.

:smallfrown:

Guys, I could super use hugs and support right now. With my lady love incommunicado due to family vacation and the stress of everything going on in my life, I've had trouble leaving be the past couple days, let alone accomplishing anything meaningful. Fortunately I can run an apartment search from my computer, but I'm still having the worst time right now.

[Lentrax]

Many hugs for you multi-limbed one.

*hugs*

Wish I could help with the place to live thing, but alas, I live in the almost literal middle of nowhere.

[Grytorm]

Fear not good lady! It will happen so long as you want it to.

:smallfrown:

Guys, I could super use hugs and support right now. With my lady love incommunicado due to family vacation and the stress of everything going on in my life, I've had trouble leaving be the past couple days, let alone accomplishing anything meaningful. Fortunately I can run an apartment search from my computer, but I'm still having the worst time right now.

Frown. I hope you can get in touch with her again soon. An idea I had to cheer you up turned out to not really work because you are already on her care package list. I could probably send you a package of a hedgehog though if that would help.

[golentan]

Many hugs for you multi-limbed one.

*hugs*

Wish I could help with the place to live thing, but alas, I live in the almost literal middle of nowhere.

Thanks.


Frown. I hope you can get in touch with her again soon. An idea I had to cheer you up turned out to not really work because you are already on her care package list. I could probably send you a package of a hedgehog though if that would help.

Thanks, but no.

[Lissou]

Many hugs to the golly one!

Good luck with your search. These things are really frustrating :S.

[gunnar11]

Wow. I left the forum on part 19 of these LGBT+ series of the thread. Now, about 2-3 years later I think? it's gotten to part 56 O.o

Impressive

[Svata]

*all of le hugs*

[Astrella]

So I'm taking a baby-trans girl shopping this Saturday, but I'm sorta panicking about it. I don't know her that well and I'm not good with people in general (thank you social anxiety) and clothes shopping isn't exactly my forte, but I do want to help her out cause it's hard, transitioning and all of it, and I want to give support.

[ThinkMinty]

So I'm taking a baby-trans girl shopping this Saturday, but I'm sorta panicking about it. I don't know her that well and I'm not good with people in general (thank you social anxiety) and clothes shopping isn't exactly my forte, but I do want to help her out cause it's hard, transitioning and all of it, and I want to give support.

Bring someone along you know who's good at it, then? It'll ease the tension by adding a third person.

[goto124]

Baby trans girl? Forgive my ignorance, but what is the situation?

[Athedia]

I believe what is meant is someone who has just come out and is now getting advice??

In frustrating news I lost my nice USB with all my writing on it. Only 1 thing is lost for good, I have paper copies and other versions saved elsewhere. But it also means I have to totally retype and format a 10 minute play....

[Miraqariftsky]

Fear not good lady! It will happen so long as you want it to.

:smallfrown:

Guys, I could super use hugs and support right now. With my lady love incommunicado due to family vacation and the stress of everything going on in my life, I've had trouble leaving be the past couple days, let alone accomplishing anything meaningful. Fortunately I can run an apartment search from my computer, but I'm still having the worst time right now.
Sorrytahear, dearest.

Be aware of your breathing. Take life one day at a time. OWN your hours, own your moments. Make each action deliberate. Should help. Look at your strides, don't look at the runners far in front of you, nor the finish line.

You can do it. I believe in you.


Frown. I hope you can get in touch with her again soon. An idea I had to cheer you up turned out to not really work because you are already on her care package list. I could probably send you a package of a hedgehog though if that would help.
I second his motion, ma'am Grytorm. Hope! Persevere.

I ain't him, but lemme just say, right appreciated, comrade.


Wow. I left the forum on part 19 of these LGBT+ series of the thread. Now, about 2-3 years later I think? it's gotten to part 56 O.o

Impressive
Welcome back, comrade Gunnar.

Er... and hallo, how do ye do, then?


So I'm taking a baby-trans girl shopping this Saturday, but I'm sorta panicking about it. I don't know her that well and I'm not good with people in general (thank you social anxiety) and clothes shopping isn't exactly my forte, but I do want to help her out cause it's hard, transitioning and all of it, and I want to give support.
Are y'all already friends? If not, then Get To Know Her. Just go with the standard how-do-you-do questions and lines of conversation. Plus comrade queer and transgirl-to-transgirl talk. Y'all got SOMEthing in common right there, should provide a good platform from which to take off to the stuff you're asking for. Her being a trans-girl isn't the entirety of her life. What are her hobbies and interests? Favourite colours and whyso? Any animals she likes? Favourite movies or books? Things of that sort. Any artwork that she likes? How active is she, physically? Where does she work at? How's her family doing? Just how out of the closet is she? How long? And what the heck kind of clothing does she Need, Want, Is Interested In/Curious Of, and Is Comfortable With? Got any particular creed or philosophy or statement she lives by, loves by, or laughs by?

Etcetera, etcetera.

And try not to be so... conscious... of a "How To Conversationize" protocol--- haha(?)--- being so aware likely would make your conversationing a bit more anxious.

How does the above tie in with your question? Examples...
>Where does she live--- Is storage space, stealth a concern for her? Is the family supportive or not? Can she shop and store freely, or must she put her stuff in trans-stashes in her bag or [wherever-hidden]? If these are concerns, you might want to look for small, or easy-to-fold items.
>Where does she work at--- Might have dress code, or might have to take practical concerns into consideration.
>Physical fitness/interest in ruggedness or working out--- Again, practical concerns. Look at sports bras, swim-dresses, bike shorts, tank tops, etc.
>Hobbies, interests, etc--- Heyyyyy, geekiness! Might want to check out comics/hobby/game shops which might offer clothes with tributes to certain stuff of [insert particular geeky interest here].
>Favourite colour--- Admittedly, mileage varies here. But hey, some people ARE particularly attached to or particularly averse to certain colours. Poke for conversation there, might dig a good thread of conversation. For example, yours truly? I like fiery colours and patterns and, if not available, anything with a great degree of contrast and brightness. Or, if y'ask me ta simplify [ha-ha] "RED." Why? Because fire is fun, fire is rage, fire is life. Because it is a reminder of the brilliance of life, of the world, of hope, of struggle. Because it is a reminder of blood, of life, of struggle, of fighting.
>Artwork she likes--- Look for that stuff in colours and patterns.
>Statement--- Be it statement shirts, or geekery references, how one dresses is a way for them to communicate to the world, simply by standing, wearing, walking.
>Is there anything that she... well... WANTS? For example... "A missed girlhood"--- Simple, pretty and "young", might do the trick there. Or go for a schoolgirl uniform.
>Is? Budget? A? Concern?
---If so, stick to bargain shops, bazaars, department stores. Bargain hunting has its own flavour of fun, lemme tell ya.

Other stuff:
Skirt stuff... Trust pleats. Less likely to show off any... unfortunate guest appearances by trouser titans [HAH-HAH-HAH]. Or at the least, really LOOSE or FLUFFY or FLOWY skirts, whether just skirts or the skirts of dresses.

Bra stuff... Well, hey, we gotta say, eh, the chest is often a sensitive topic. Sometimes, some transwomen have a bit of luck with some FAT there, gives bras a bit more stuff to actually hold on to, even if she's totally pre-OP and pre-hormones. Generally, though, most bras are a bit moulded already nowadays, so, well, speaking from what little [HWAH-HAH-HAH] experience I've got, a bra with moulded cups under a dress with garters along the torso area [excellent for promoting your figure. the minimum requirement here is at least have a belt to tuck you in at the waist.] or just under a shirt or a top or whatever works well enough in our quest for breasts.

Regarding stuffing, do remember to try to put your [insert stuffing material of choice here] UNDER the breasts to still have the impression of a natural bosom. Improperly stuffed bras give off a lumpy look, or are uncomfortable, or even have a pointy look. [That happened one time when I was "borrowing" one of my mother's bras and my friend called me on it. Hey, thanks comrade Strawbs.] Okay... IF the trans-lady in question has yet to acquire professional falsies, one trick I've learned there is to use either ONE sock OR a hankerchief per cup, folded into small triangles, and put them under the breasts towards the edge of the cup. Gives you a subtle but definite pump. But hey! I'm sure trans-ladies more veteran and richer than I would be able to give better advice there, ha-ha!

Oh! Remember as well the aspects of practicality and modesty. Not every lady wants to have her lingerie showing through their fabrics, nor are bra straps okay to have hanging out always, unless the lady in question is okay with that. Me, a little trick I've found with that is to configure your bra strap to connect the two cups across the back of your neck. It's a little tight at first, but gives good chest moulding. Another thing you guys might want to do [I have yet to buy special "fashion straps", I admit.] is to have fun with bra straps! Pretty sure stores offer many designs thereof [go ahead and mix and match your bras/straps, is a little bit of enjoyment], or buy plain ones plus inks or dyes or sequins or whatever and make your own!

MIND you, though, if you happen to be in a hurry or shy about approaching store personnel for a proper bra-fitting, or don't have a tape measure handy, another little trick I've learned is to use your hands to roughly measure your chest, then do the same with your prospective bra/s while they're still hanging on the rack. Measure by handspans [and fractions thereof, probably.] First time I did that... whoah! I was frankly surprised at the time, that the closest my by-hand measuring came to the bras that were on the rack then was a 38. The feeling of a bra that fits JUST right [or close enough], it's a little bit of magic, lemme tell ye. [And because I took too long to decide, and took lingerie into the fitting booth, store guards later on caught up to me with an accusation of being a thief. HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH! HAH! Don't worry.] Oh! And when doing like that, remember to add on a "male tax". Like, if what's available's either a 36 or a 38, go for the larger one. Though, you CAN go lower, for ease of stealth/storage concealment, if she's not yet all that out of the closet especially to her family.


Bring someone along you know who's good at it, then? It'll ease the tension by adding a third person.
I second the motion, your honour.


I believe what is meant is someone who has just come out and is now getting advice??

In frustrating news I lost my nice USB with all my writing on it. Only 1 thing is lost for good, I have paper copies and other versions saved elsewhere. But it also means I have to totally retype and format a 10 minute play....
Agreed.

Sorry ta hear, Athedia. GOOD that you have plenty of backups, though.

A ten-minute play... That's a pity that it was lost. My suggestion, hmm, can you look at it as if this were a chance for you to go back to your Model One Mark One draft in your mind, write it up as if new and fresh? And when you're done crafting that, I'm pretty sure it'll have a not insignificant amount of changes from the one that was lost. With that... look at it as your piece's resurrection, eh? Build it up better and stronger than before! Or come at the matter with a fresh angle.

[Astrella]

I know her to the degree that I talked an hour or so with her at a trans meet up about a year ago.

It's just, like, I can do the shopping thing it just takes energy and social anxiety makes talking to people I don't know super super well really hard. I think I can manage and I want to, it's just that my anxiety has been so unpredictable lately, like just last week I had a big anxiety attack over just walking into a gaming store I wanted to buy some mini stuff from. I just, I want to be a good help to her but I'm really nervous about doing it.

[JNAProductions]

I know her to the degree that I talked an hour or so with her at a trans meet up about a year ago.

It's just, like, I can do the shopping thing it just takes energy and social anxiety makes talking to people I don't know super super well really hard. I think I can manage and I want to, it's just that my anxiety has been so unpredictable lately, like just last week I had a big anxiety attack over just walking into a gaming store I wanted to buy some mini stuff from. I just, I want to be a good help to her but I'm really nervous about doing it.

That's not a bad thing. Don't let your nervousness control you, but if you're nervous, that means you're worried about doing right by her, and that's a good sign.

I don't really know what advice I can offer, but I do want to say I have full confidence in you. I think you'll be able to do just fine. :smallsmile:

[Serpentine]

I know her to the degree that I talked an hour or so with her at a trans meet up about a year ago.

It's just, like, I can do the shopping thing it just takes energy and social anxiety makes talking to people I don't know super super well really hard. I think I can manage and I want to, it's just that my anxiety has been so unpredictable lately, like just last week I had a big anxiety attack over just walking into a gaming store I wanted to buy some mini stuff from. I just, I want to be a good help to her but I'm really nervous about doing it.

Might it help both of you if you went full disclosure and told her in advance what your anxiety is like and how she can recognise and help you with it? A friend of mine had a panic attack when we were out a while ago and it was really scary, not least because I didn't *really* know what was happening or what to do. If we'd talked about it in advance, just the practical "what should I do if -" it could have been less of a big deal and over much faster than it was.

[Miraqariftsky]

I know her to the degree that I talked an hour or so with her at a trans meet up about a year ago.

It's just, like, I can do the shopping thing it just takes energy and social anxiety makes talking to people I don't know super super well really hard. I think I can manage and I want to, it's just that my anxiety has been so unpredictable lately, like just last week I had a big anxiety attack over just walking into a gaming store I wanted to buy some mini stuff from. I just, I want to be a good help to her but I'm really nervous about doing it.

Ah, I see. At least y'all HAVE trans-meetups like that.

Alrighty, understood. Key is calmness. Breathe, girl. Breeeeeeaaathe. Breathe. Take yourself aside when you feel anxiety's pounding on you like so, and concentrate on your moments. Breathe. OWN every moment. Breathe.


That's not a bad thing. Don't let your nervousness control you, but if you're nervous, that means you're worried about doing right by her, and that's a good sign.

I don't really know what advice I can offer, but I do want to say I have full confidence in you. I think you'll be able to do just fine. :smallsmile:
I second the above, your honour.

Hell yeah, ma'am Astrella!


Might it help both of you if you went full disclosure and told her in advance what your anxiety is like and how she can recognise and help you with it? A friend of mine had a panic attack when we were out a while ago and it was really scary, not least because I didn't *really* know what was happening or what to do. If we'd talked about it in advance, just the practical "what should I do if -" it could have been less of a big deal and over much faster than it was.

I second the motion, your honour. That DOES make sense, it does.

[Kalmageddon]

Tomorrow in the early morning my friend is finally going to have bottom surgery, after many delays and bureaucratic obstacles.
Her boyfriend will be with her, I'd like to but I'm too far away.

I'd like some good luck and best wishes sent her way, if only in spirit, if you don't mind.

[JNAProductions]

I don't know who your friend is, but I wish them the best of luck!

[Grytorm]

Tomorrow in the early morning my friend is finally going to have bottom surgery, after many delays and bureaucratic obstacles.
Her boyfriend will be with her, I'd like to but I'm too far away.

I'd like some good luck and best wishes sent her way, if only in spirit, if you don't mind.

I see a distant ship passing by
Charting the same waters as I
I call for a mighty cheer
So even they so far may hear

[Athedia]

Sorry ta hear, Athedia. GOOD that you have plenty of backups, though.

A ten-minute play... That's a pity that it was lost. My suggestion, hmm, can you look at it as if this were a chance for you to go back to your Model One Mark One draft in your mind, write it up as if new and fresh? And when you're done crafting that, I'm pretty sure it'll have a not insignificant amount of changes from the one that was lost. With that... look at it as your piece's resurrection, eh? Build it up better and stronger than before! Or come at the matter with a fresh angle.

I found a paper copy, then remembered I had sent it to my father since a character was based on an interaction with him. So the revisions I made are lost, but as you said "I have the technology" so better, faster, stronger here I come.


EDIT: And a note on informing on panic attacks. I had one last night due to losing the USB and then accidentally walking in on a class in my search. Opposite of fun, but I called two friends and while the one was coming to my location the other one talked me through breathing exercises. I would have been unable to function if they hadn't been there with the knowledge of what to do.

[CoffeeIncluded]

I found a paper copy, then remembered I had sent it to my father since a character was based on an interaction with him. So the revisions I made are lost, but as you said "I have the technology" so better, faster, stronger here I come.


EDIT: And a note on informing on panic attacks. I had one last night due to losing the USB and then accidentally walking in on a class in my search. Opposite of fun, but I called two friends and while the one was coming to my location the other one talked me through breathing exercises. I would have been unable to function if they hadn't been there with the knowledge of what to do.

*hugs* I'm so glad your friends were there and that you found a draft. I hope you find your usb.

Jim Obergefell (the lead plaintiff of the recent gay marriage case) is currently speaking at the school where I'm s vet student. This should be interesting.

[Xihirli]

*hugs* I'm so glad your friends were there and that you found a draft. I hope you find your usb.

Jim Obergefell (the lead plaintiff of the recent gay marriage case) is currently speaking at the school where I'm s vet student. This should be interesting.

I love Jim Obergefell! He's the best. He's a very brave man who deserves all of our respect.

[JusticeZero]

Still trying to perfect my brief response to kids asking if I'm a boy or a girl (generally the high point of my day). So far I'm down to "Thank you for asking, it's better than assuming - I'm non-binary and a 'they'.." Still feels a bit stumbly though.

[Orcus The Vile]

Still trying to perfect my brief response to kids asking if I'm a boy or a girl (generally the high point of my day). So far I'm down to "Thank you for asking, it's better than assuming - I'm non-binary and a 'they'.." Still feels a bit stumbly though.

"Well, one isn't purely defined by their sex or gender. I have yet to find out who I really am."
-Adventure time lamp.

[Kittenwolf]

Still trying to perfect my brief response to kids asking if I'm a boy or a girl (generally the high point of my day). So far I'm down to "Thank you for asking, it's better than assuming - I'm non-binary and a 'they'.." Still feels a bit stumbly though.

I tend to go with something like "Depends, what day of the week is it again" :)

[Rain Dragon]

Still trying to perfect my brief response to kids asking if I'm a boy or a girl (generally the high point of my day). So far I'm down to "Thank you for asking, it's better than assuming - I'm non-binary and a 'they'.." Still feels a bit stumbly though.

I had an opportunity to respond to this once.
"No." /grins

It doesn't work out very well if the goal is to clarify rather than being a bit of an ass though. Might give you some ideas, hopefully?

[JusticeZero]

Well, I'm not gender fluid, so that snark is out.. And if I don't give a sufficient answer, the parents "correct" it. So I'm trying to be informative as well as brief.

In other news, I helped someone figure out that he is binary trans a couple months back.. The past couple days he has been posting a lot of transphobic stuff on social media. He also hasn't responded to me lately. I worry about him...

[goto124]

And if I don't give a sufficient answer, the parents "correct" it.

Yea, that's a problem too. It's tough.

So... what pronouns would you prefer us to use to refer to you? It's what I usually mean when I ask if someone is male or female

[Astrella]

Shopping with trans friend went well, got her a nice coat and some other stuff, had lunch together and talked a bunch. :smallsmile: (Did have a big anxiety attack prior to meeting her, had to sit down on a bench and had dissociation happen then which caused me to be late... bluh.)

[JNAProductions]

Awesome! Sorry to hear about your anxiety attack, but glad your shopping went well!

[noparlpf]

Yesterday was apparently the first time my boss had run into the trans client I clocked a few weeks ago since before he had transitioned. (I guess he's been seeing the new vet this year.) She didn't realise he was the same person at first and thought he was his brother or something. So I feel bad for noticing, but he's clearly passing well to people who don't have transgenderism near the front of their minds. And I have tended to clock most trans people I've met irl so maybe I just look at the wrong gender cues.

[Dire Moose]

I've found out about three people being trans now without them having said it publicly. One of them was a former coworker of mine whom I still don't know for sure about, but there were a lot of things about her that just seemed to add up, another was a well-known expert within a specific scientific community, and hadn't mentioned it at all on her blog or elsewhere within that community but only in comments on one trans-related blog, and the third is actually a very well-known Internet personality whom I happened to know from a forum we both frequented before she became famous.

I actually feel horribly guilty about discovering some of these, like I accidentally overheard something nobody was supposed to know. The third especially, considering she has articles written about her on different wikis that make no mention of her gender identity, which means she really doesn't want anybody finding out.

Also, I mentioned this briefly many pages back, but after carefully considering it I felt it deserved a mention. Although my situation isn't anywhere near the level experienced by most people who are actually transgender, there have been enough oddities in my past that I really think I need to more closely examine what my actual gender identity is.

The facts as of now:

--I've always been interested in the idea of switching sexes, and have often wondered what it would be like to try it.

--I did go through a phase of about a year around age 13 when I wanted to become a girl. I do remember running across the term "transsexual" then and wondered if it might apply to me. At least I always thought it was a phase; I realize now that it ended at the same time I started getting involved with a religious organization, and that was accompanied by a certain amount of angst over whether I was too feminine and becoming gay. For all, I know, it may have gone much farther had things turned out differently.

--I didn't play with any "girl toys" when I was a child, and in fact was pretty much a typical boy in terms of my interests. I never imagined myself as a non-male character when pretending to be anything either.

--However, with regards to the above, the two fictional characters I identify with the most are Link from The Legend of Zelda and Tedd from El Goonish Shive, and while both male neither can really be considered traditionally masculine.

--When I've had a choice between a male or female character in Pokémon, I have lately been choosing the female option and somehow feel better doing it. More recently, I have been playing female characters in Pathfinder Society games and have been getting a lot out of it.

--I get emotional and cry a lot more easily than any guy I know, and I think I do it more often than some girls do as well.

--I don't recall ever experiencing gender dysphoria.


--I'm more aroused by reading erotic literature than looking at visual stuff.

--I don't want to change anything "under the hood." I'm perfectly happy with what I have down there now.

--Having breasts is something I've always wanted. However, all options for achieving this are too expensive, permanent, and noticeable for me.

--I've never been comfortable with standing up to pee, and only do so when there's no other option.

--I've caught myself wishing I was a girl (albeit with male equipment) during sexual moments.

Taking all of this into account, I'm not really sure where I fit to be honest. I definitely don't believe I'm far enough to actually be trans, but there's enough there to question whether being a cis male really fits me completely. I think to get a better idea of where I really fit in, I'd like to try presenting as female occasionally to see how I like it.

I'm still going to use male pronouns by default except when I'm presenting as female IRL, which probably won't happen for a while. I also go by a gender-neutral name in real life, which is a very fortunate coincidence; I don't have to remember two separate names when I already have a good gender-neutral one.

I'm already working on developing a more androgynous "base form" for myself. I'm starting mainly with shaving my body hair and figuring out how to keep doing it effectively. And next time I get a haircut, I'm going to ask about styles that look good for both genders. Eventually, I want to reach a point where I don't look like anything by default, and people's interpretation of my gender will mainly come from aspects of my appearance I can easily change. I am also trying out various ways of altering my voice so that I don't sound as masculine.

Once I get to that point, I could then start presenting myself as female every now and then. I wouldn't do this around most people I know; rather, I'd choose somewhere public enough that I would still be interacting with people, but away from anyone who would be able to recognize me. Exactly where and how to make this work is still pretty uncertain though.

A quick note about me. I'm 5'10" without very broad shoulders or any other feature that would make me stand out. The only complication I know of is that I do have a visible adam's apple. I remember discussing this with a previous girlfriend who was trans, and we agreed that my body was one that could transition fairly easily. Not that I'd want to actually transition, it's just that there wouldn't be a lot of complications if I wanted to present as female.

Not sure how well this will work or if it's that well thought out, and I'm sure there are glaring flaws in it, but I would like to know if you've got anything to add.

[Svata]

I've found out about three people being trans now without them having said it publicly. One of them was a former coworker of mine whom I still don't know for sure about, but there were a lot of things about her that just seemed to add up, another was a well-known expert within a specific scientific community, and hadn't mentioned it at all on her blog or elsewhere within that community but only in comments on one trans-related blog, and the third is actually a very well-known Internet personality whom I happened to know from a forum we both frequented before she became famous.

I actually feel horribly guilty about discovering some of these, like I accidentally overheard something nobody was supposed to know. The third especially, considering she has articles written about her on different wikis that make no mention of her gender identity, which means she really doesn't want anybody finding out.

Also, I mentioned this briefly many pages back, but after carefully considering it I felt it deserved a mention. Although my situation isn't anywhere near the level experienced by most people who are actually transgender, there have been enough oddities in my past that I really think I need to more closely examine what my actual gender identity is.

The facts as of now:

--I've always been interested in the idea of switching sexes, and have often wondered what it would be like to try it.

--I did go through a phase of about a year around age 13 when I wanted to become a girl. I do remember running across the term "transsexual" then and wondered if it might apply to me. At least I always thought it was a phase; I realize now that it ended at the same time I started getting involved with a religious organization, and that was accompanied by a certain amount of angst over whether I was too feminine and becoming gay. For all, I know, it may have gone much farther had things turned out differently.

--I didn't play with any "girl toys" when I was a child, and in fact was pretty much a typical boy in terms of my interests. I never imagined myself as a non-male character when pretending to be anything either.

--However, with regards to the above, the two fictional characters I identify with the most are Link from The Legend of Zelda and Tedd from El Goonish Shive, and while both male neither can really be considered traditionally masculine.

--When I've had a choice between a male or female character in Pokémon, I have lately been choosing the female option and somehow feel better doing it. More recently, I have been playing female characters in Pathfinder Society games and have been getting a lot out of it.

--I get emotional and cry a lot more easily than any guy I know, and I think I do it more often than some girls do as well.

--I don't recall ever experiencing gender dysphoria.


--I'm more aroused by reading erotic literature than looking at visual stuff.

--I don't want to change anything "under the hood." I'm perfectly happy with what I have down there now.

--Having breasts is something I've always wanted. However, all options for achieving this are too expensive, permanent, and noticeable for me.

--I've never been comfortable with standing up to pee, and only do so when there's no other option.

--I've caught myself wishing I was a girl (albeit with male equipment) during sexual moments.

Taking all of this into account, I'm not really sure where I fit to be honest. I definitely don't believe I'm far enough to actually be trans, but there's enough there to question whether being a cis male really fits me completely. I think to get a better idea of where I really fit in, I'd like to try presenting as female occasionally to see how I like it.

I'm still going to use male pronouns by default except when I'm presenting as female IRL, which probably won't happen for a while. I also go by a gender-neutral name in real life, which is a very fortunate coincidence; I don't have to remember two separate names when I already have a good gender-neutral one.

I'm already working on developing a more androgynous "base form" for myself. I'm starting mainly with shaving my body hair and figuring out how to keep doing it effectively. And next time I get a haircut, I'm going to ask about styles that look good for both genders. Eventually, I want to reach a point where I don't look like anything by default, and people's interpretation of my gender will mainly come from aspects of my appearance I can easily change. I am also trying out various ways of altering my voice so that I don't sound as masculine.

Once I get to that point, I could then start presenting myself as female every now and then. I wouldn't do this around most people I know; rather, I'd choose somewhere public enough that I would still be interacting with people, but away from anyone who would be able to recognize me. Exactly where and how to make this work is still pretty uncertain though.

A quick note about me. I'm 5'10" without very broad shoulders or any other feature that would make me stand out. The only complication I know of is that I do have a visible adam's apple. I remember discussing this with a previous girlfriend who was trans, and we agreed that my body was one that could transition fairly easily. Not that I'd want to actually transition, it's just that there wouldn't be a lot of complications if I wanted to present as female.

Not sure how well this will work or if it's that well thought out, and I'm sure there are glaring flaws in it, but I would like to know if you've got anything to add.

Do I know you on some other board, or am I hallucinating that? Or have two people posted the same thing on two boards on the same day?

[Lentrax]

I've found out about three people being trans now without them having said it publicly. One of them was a former coworker of mine whom I still don't know for sure about, but there were a lot of things about her that just seemed to add up, another was a well-known expert within a specific scientific community, and hadn't mentioned it at all on her blog or elsewhere within that community but only in comments on one trans-related blog, and the third is actually a very well-known Internet personality whom I happened to know from a forum we both frequented before she became famous.

I actually feel horribly guilty about discovering some of these, like I accidentally overheard something nobody was supposed to know. The third especially, considering she has articles written about her on different wikis that make no mention of her gender identity, which means she really doesn't want anybody finding out.

Also, I mentioned this briefly many pages back, but after carefully considering it I felt it deserved a mention. Although my situation isn't anywhere near the level experienced by most people who are actually transgender, there have been enough oddities in my past that I really think I need to more closely examine what my actual gender identity is.

The facts as of now:

--I've always been interested in the idea of switching sexes, and have often wondered what it would be like to try it.

--I did go through a phase of about a year around age 13 when I wanted to become a girl. I do remember running across the term "transsexual" then and wondered if it might apply to me. At least I always thought it was a phase; I realize now that it ended at the same time I started getting involved with a religious organization, and that was accompanied by a certain amount of angst over whether I was too feminine and becoming gay. For all, I know, it may have gone much farther had things turned out differently.

--I didn't play with any "girl toys" when I was a child, and in fact was pretty much a typical boy in terms of my interests. I never imagined myself as a non-male character when pretending to be anything either.

--However, with regards to the above, the two fictional characters I identify with the most are Link from The Legend of Zelda and Tedd from El Goonish Shive, and while both male neither can really be considered traditionally masculine.

--When I've had a choice between a male or female character in Pokémon, I have lately been choosing the female option and somehow feel better doing it. More recently, I have been playing female characters in Pathfinder Society games and have been getting a lot out of it.

--I get emotional and cry a lot more easily than any guy I know, and I think I do it more often than some girls do as well.

--I don't recall ever experiencing gender dysphoria.


--I'm more aroused by reading erotic literature than looking at visual stuff.

--I don't want to change anything "under the hood." I'm perfectly happy with what I have down there now.

--Having breasts is something I've always wanted. However, all options for achieving this are too expensive, permanent, and noticeable for me.

--I've never been comfortable with standing up to pee, and only do so when there's no other option.

--I've caught myself wishing I was a girl (albeit with male equipment) during sexual moments.

Taking all of this into account, I'm not really sure where I fit to be honest. I definitely don't believe I'm far enough to actually be trans, but there's enough there to question whether being a cis male really fits me completely. I think to get a better idea of where I really fit in, I'd like to try presenting as female occasionally to see how I like it.

I'm still going to use male pronouns by default except when I'm presenting as female IRL, which probably won't happen for a while. I also go by a gender-neutral name in real life, which is a very fortunate coincidence; I don't have to remember two separate names when I already have a good gender-neutral one.

I'm already working on developing a more androgynous "base form" for myself. I'm starting mainly with shaving my body hair and figuring out how to keep doing it effectively. And next time I get a haircut, I'm going to ask about styles that look good for both genders. Eventually, I want to reach a point where I don't look like anything by default, and people's interpretation of my gender will mainly come from aspects of my appearance I can easily change. I am also trying out various ways of altering my voice so that I don't sound as masculine.

Once I get to that point, I could then start presenting myself as female every now and then. I wouldn't do this around most people I know; rather, I'd choose somewhere public enough that I would still be interacting with people, but away from anyone who would be able to recognize me. Exactly where and how to make this work is still pretty uncertain though.

A quick note about me. I'm 5'10" without very broad shoulders or any other feature that would make me stand out. The only complication I know of is that I do have a visible adam's apple. I remember discussing this with a previous girlfriend who was trans, and we agreed that my body was one that could transition fairly easily. Not that I'd want to actually transition, it's just that there wouldn't be a lot of complications if I wanted to present as female.

Not sure how well this will work or if it's that well thought out, and I'm sure there are glaring flaws in it, but I would like to know if you've got anything to add.

I'll make a more lengthy post in a while, if I can, but for now the tl;dr version.

You are you, and the only one who can accurately tell you who or what you are is ultimately you.

[Dire Moose]

Do I know you on some other board, or am I hallucinating that? Or have two people posted the same thing on two boards on the same day?

Yes, I frequent both of those boards and I know you from both as well.

[Svata]

Ah, ok. Thought I'd seen that post right before coming here, and was confused, is all.

[Orcus The Vile]

In other news, I helped someone figure out that he is binary trans a couple months back.. The past couple days he has been posting a lot of transphobic stuff on social media. He also hasn't responded to me lately. I worry about him...

And that is why I don't like "helping" anyone with their sexual stuff. I'm not saying you did that but most of the time it is hard not to mix your ideas and sexual preferences when helping someone with this sort of thing.

That is why I think it should be something natural that the person has to do it by him/herself. Other wise you may end up with a responsibility you don't really want to have. Or with the best of intentions end up making things more confusing.

And sexual things are always confusing. So my advise is not get involved and just let him find things naturally, if posting this comments is part of his process let him have it. Don't assume you know him better than himself.

[Dire Moose]

I've found out about three people being trans now without them having said it publicly. One of them was a former coworker of mine whom I still don't know for sure about, but there were a lot of things about her that just seemed to add up, another was a well-known expert within a specific scientific community, and hadn't mentioned it at all on her blog or elsewhere within that community but only in comments on one trans-related blog, and the third is actually a very well-known Internet personality whom I happened to know from a forum we both frequented before she became famous.

I actually feel horribly guilty about discovering some of these, like I accidentally overheard something nobody was supposed to know. The third especially, considering she has articles written about her on different wikis that make no mention of her gender identity, which means she really doesn't want anybody finding out.

...make that four people now. She was avoiding telling people too, including me, and I, being the determined pattern-recognition expert that I was, put it together from a lot of the things she was saying, then accidentally hit enter on a post I wasn't really planning on sending. And she saw it before I could delete it.

I think I put her off a bit, but she assured me I hadn't done anything wrong. And it wasn't on the Internet where anyone else could see it either.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so good at noticing patterns. :smallfrown:

(To be fair, though, she gave no indication until just this recent conversation and I was completely floored when I started realizing what it all meant)

[AmberVael]

Also, I mentioned this briefly many pages back, but after carefully considering it I felt it deserved a mention. Although my situation isn't anywhere near the level experienced by most people who are actually transgender, there have been enough oddities in my past that I really think I need to more closely examine what my actual gender identity is.

The facts as of now:


So I'm half asleep and I've been struggling with wording on this for a while, so take this with a salt shaker and the consideration that what I'm trying to express here is pretty complicated and I may not get it across well.

The kinds of things you're thinking about are important. They define you, and you should keep thinking about that. But a lot of them? Put no stock in them as far as gender identity. Like, the toys for example. Compare toys to clothes- both about personal preference and choice, and should really have no bearing on gender. And even trans individuals may or may not experience dysphoria- I don't to any noticeable extent- so its not something to be counted on.

My suggestion is, continue to figure out you by thinking of the kinds of things you're doing, but don't label them, and don't label you. Find yourself out, and then decide how best to describe it to others.

[Face]

I've found the Genderbread Man invaluable for helping to explain to non-trans people...

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2015/03/the-genderbread-person-v3/

You don't need to decide where you are on any scale on any permanent basis! :)

[Grytorm]

Hmm. I haven't been in the best of moods lately. Bad negative self talk as well. I can't think of what else to say about it though.

[JusticeZero]

Also, I mentioned this briefly many pages back, but after carefully considering it I felt it deserved a mention. Although my situation isn't anywhere near the level experienced by most people who are actually transgender, there have been enough oddities in my past that I really think I need to more closely examine what my actual gender identity is.
The things you said there sound pretty common among various points in the agender and non-binary range, and quite a few are things that I experience myself.
And that is why I don't like "helping" anyone with their sexual stuff. I'm not saying you did that but most of the time it is hard not to mix your ideas and sexual preferences when helping someone with this sort of thing.

Well, I'm not interested in him. I just was a bit surprised by the transphobic stuff from someone who is himself trans, and worrying that he was in some sort of trouble. It isn't actually my problem, except for the part where I was worrying myself because I want everyone to be doing well.

[Orcus The Vile]

Well, I'm not interested in him. I just was a bit surprised by the transphobic stuff from someone who is himself trans, and worrying that he was in some sort of trouble. It isn't actually my problem, except for the part where I was worrying myself because I want everyone to be doing well.

I'm not saying that. I'm just saying like if a friend comes to me and says that he has weird feelings in a situation similar to mine I would try to tell him how it went with me... But maybe it has nothing to do with HIS situation.

I think a lot of homosexual people pass through "the stages of grief" for the reality they thought they belong (straight). Maybe he is in the shock and denial phase or maybe in the anger phase.

[Rain Dragon]

Still trying to perfect my brief response to kids asking if I'm a boy or a girl (generally the high point of my day). So far I'm down to "Thank you for asking, it's better than assuming - I'm non-binary and a 'they'.." Still feels a bit stumbly though.

Well, I'm not gender fluid, so that snark is out.. And if I don't give a sufficient answer, the parents "correct" it. So I'm trying to be informative as well as brief.

Idk what age range you're talking about and I did mean to respond seriously earlier. (Sorry)
I explained my gender to my younger brother with the genderbread person. Would such a visual aid help? My brother was early highschool and totally got it straight away.

That said, Face sorta beat me to suggesting it. :smalltongue:


I've found the Genderbread Man invaluable for helping to explain to non-trans people...

http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2015/03/the-genderbread-person-v3/

You don't need to decide where you are on any scale on any permanent basis! :)

I second this sentiment. ^.^


Hmm. I haven't been in the best of moods lately. Bad negative self talk as well. I can't think of what else to say about it though.

Aww. /offers virtual hugs
Hope you feel better soon? I'd offer some advice but I'm terrible with that, so I'll just note that my inbox is open if you want someone to chat to.

[JusticeZero]

Well, the gingerbread man is good but takes lots of prep. This is because I work in the public and briefly interact with a lot of people - but it's actually a pretty common occurrence that some child will stop what they're doing when I'm helping them to look at me and ask "Are you a boy or a girl?" I don't really have a relationship with them for a detailed answer, and I don't want to lie to them or blow them off or give them the idea that I didn't want them to ask.

[ArlEammon]

Major hugs needed. . . PM please?

[Dire Moose]

...make that four people now. She was avoiding telling people too, including me, and I, being the determined pattern-recognition expert that I was, put it together from a lot of the things she was saying, then accidentally hit enter on a post I wasn't really planning on sending. And she saw it before I could delete it.

I think I put her off a bit, but she assured me I hadn't done anything wrong. And it wasn't on the Internet where anyone else could see it either.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't so good at noticing patterns. :smallfrown:

(To be fair, though, she gave no indication until just this recent conversation and I was completely floored when I started realizing what it all meant)

Um, actually, rereading it, I've found that her being trans would actually have been completely impossible and we must have just misinterpreted each other. Now it's going to be double-awkward if she ever figures out what I meant.

[Grytorm]

Aww. /offers virtual hugs
Hope you feel better soon? I'd offer some advice but I'm terrible with that, so I'll just note that my inbox is open if you want someone to chat to.

Thanks for the offer of support. Everytime I feel down and mention it here I get a new invitation to talk with someone. Which is nice. Hmm. Don't know what else to say. So again thank you.

[ThinkMinty]

Well, the gingerbread man is good but takes lots of prep. This is because I work in the public and briefly interact with a lot of people - but it's actually a pretty common occurrence that some child will stop what they're doing when I'm helping them to look at me and ask "Are you a boy or a girl?" I don't really have a relationship with them for a detailed answer, and I don't want to lie to them or blow them off or give them the idea that I didn't want them to ask.

Why not just tell them, "Hmm. I dunno, you pick for me, kay?". It's brief enough and a fun enough response that it'll be fun for them.

[Coidzor]

I actually feel horribly guilty about discovering some of these, like I accidentally overheard something nobody was supposed to know.

Two of those were put out into the aether, so your rationalization for guilt falls flat. As for the first person, well, there's no shame in clocking someone, only in outing someone.


At least I always thought it was a phase

Has that ever, in the history of humans, actually been the case? For anything? :smallconfused:


--However, with regards to the above, the two fictional characters I identify with the most are Link from The Legend of Zelda and Tedd from El Goonish Shive, and while both male neither can really be considered traditionally masculine.

I dunno, Link's stoic, doesn't talk much, and basically only expresses his feelings through violence. :smallwink:


...make that four people now. She was avoiding telling people too, including me, and I, being the determined pattern-recognition expert that I was, put it together from a lot of the things she was saying, then accidentally hit enter on a post I wasn't really planning on sending.

Don't do that. If you do need to do that, then type it in Word or Notepad or something.

[JusticeZero]

Why not just tell them, "Hmm. I dunno, you pick for me, kay?". It's brief enough and a fun enough response that it'll be fun for them.
Because, as I mentioned, if I say something that uninformative, the child's parent swoops in with "It's rude to ask that, (gendered pronoun) is obviously a (gender that's not correct)". So I get misgendered and a kid gets taught to not ask anyone about their pronouns. Not productive!

[JNAProductions]

You're androgynous, right? Why not just say "I'm androgynous-not a boy or a girl."

[KyooTrap]

ahhhhhhhh so i just started a new job and last thursday this really cute girl came in and was smiling and blushing whilst ordering from me and uhmmmmm when she left she smiled and waved at me! Then we connected over tumblr and facebook aaand we're gonna go on a date in a couple days ^_^ I'm really nervous and excited and ahhhh cute girlssss thinking I'm cute!!!

[Ifni]

Has that ever, in the history of humans, actually been the case? For anything? :smallconfused:

What, phases? If you mean broadly, outside the context of gender and sexuality, then sure - at about age six my obsessions were (a) bees and (b) the history of the Inca :smallwink: (this was almost entirely the fault of my dad's Australian Geographic subscription) Neither interest has really stood the test of time.

In the context of gender/sexuality - maybe? I went through a "eliminate all signs of femininity from my presentation" period in my early teens, whereas for the last 10+ years I've been comfortable having long-ish hair and wearing shirts and blouses that are noticeably designed for women. This didn't happen in a vacuum - there were some significant cultural pressures involved in the original "phase", and their removal (due to moving to a new country) was part of what allowed me to become comfortable with a more feminine presentation again - but it was a relatively short period where my preferred presentation was quite different from what it later became. (And I have a strong suspicion that if an adult with a cursory knowledge of trans issues had talked to me during that period, they might have come away with the impression that I was a trans boy. After all, I was very explicitly trying to get people to stop classifying me as a girl, and I hated female puberty and everything associated with it.)

My understanding is that it's pretty common for young kids to go through a period of gender questioning and still grow up to be cis (or close enough that they have no interest in transitioning, at least).

[JNAProductions]

ahhhhhhhh so i just started a new job and last thursday this really cute girl came in and was smiling and blushing whilst ordering from me and uhmmmmm when she left she smiled and waved at me! Then we connected over tumblr and facebook aaand we're gonna go on a date in a couple days ^_^ I'm really nervous and excited and ahhhh cute girlssss thinking I'm cute!!!

*High fives*

Flipping awesome! I'm really happy for you, and hope the date goes great!

[Heliomance]

Has that ever, in the history of humans, actually been the case? For anything? :smallconfused:


I spent a year being genderfluid. Does that not count as a phase? I also spent two years dressing exclusively in pseudo-Victorian formalwear, top hat, fancy waistcoats, dress shirts and a cane. Often a tailcoat too. Was that not a phase?

(Actually, I've dug out my top hat and long coat again. I mostly stopped staying them because they're fairly strongly coded male. But hormones have changed me enough now that I can wear them without looking male now!)

[Serpentine]

Protip: corset + tailcoat is a pretty great combo. I imagine a top hat would only be an improvement.

[Jormengand]

So, typing from a phone given by my father, and managed to get him not to put my birth name in (all he had by way of objection was "Be consistent") so marking that as a success. Plus the phone means I'll have more time to flirt with my latest friend. ; P

[Grytorm]

Slap slap slap. Stop hogging all the cute people. :smalltongue:

[Ravens_cry]

Protip: corset + tailcoat is a pretty great combo. I imagine a top hat would only be an improvement.
Ooh, some fishnet stockings would be so nice with that!:smallbiggrin:

[Heliomance]

Ooh, some fishnet stockings would be so nice with that!:smallbiggrin:

At this point it just sounds like you're recommending Zatanna cosplay!

[BladeofObliviom]

At this point it just sounds like you're recommending Zatanna cosplay!

I fail to see how this is a bad thing. :smallredface::smalltongue:

[Heliomance]

Sadly, I lost my old tailcoat. It's very sad, I have no idea what happened to it. I do however have a rocking longcoat, styled to look like military dress. I shall have to take a picture.

[Ravens_cry]

At this point it just sounds like you're recommending Zatanna cosplay!
You say that like it's a bad thing!:smalltongue:

[Skeppio]

At this point it just sounds like you're recommending Zatanna cosplay!

Now you're getting the idea! :smallbiggrin:

[golentan]

Have I mentioned that one of the things I love about exalted is the fluff has a huge number of queer characters?

Not so much trans characters (some genderqueer or just plain indecisive lunars, but as best I can tell exalts who are dysphoric have a variety of options to have transitioned in the past and so pretty much any one who sticks with a gender is set, and mortals get much shorter blurbs but do have the Delzahn and the Tya as cultural traditions), but bisexual and gay characters, asexual ones, and pretty much the whole spectrum.

[Ifni]

Ooh, who are the canonically ace characters in Exalted?

But yeah, that's one of the things I like about the setting as well. And also the fact that if you like, you can play an openly queer character for whom their sexuality is just No Big Deal, and it's perfectly setting-appropriate.

(There was a scene in one of my Exalted games which I enjoyed, where there was some culture shock centering around one of the PCs learning about gay relationships for the first time; it took my own character a non-negligible amount of time to figure out the point of confusion, because "there are cultures where same-sex attraction isn't acknowledged" was waaaay down her list of plausible possibilities, and even once it got through she found it very hard to believe. Homophobia just isn't really part of the general cultural background in Exalted.)

[golentan]

Ooh, who are the canonically ace characters in Exalted?

But yeah, that's one of the things I like about the setting as well. And also the fact that if you like, you can play an openly queer character for whom their sexuality is just No Big Deal, and it's perfectly setting-appropriate.

(There was a scene in one of my Exalted games which I enjoyed, where there was some culture shock centering around one of the PCs learning about gay relationships for the first time; it took my own character a non-negligible amount of time to figure out the point of confusion, because "there are cultures where same-sex attraction isn't acknowledged" was waaaay down her list of plausible possibilities, and even once it got through she found it very hard to believe. Homophobia just isn't really part of the general cultural background in Exalted.)

Kai, a Sidereal Savant of 350 years, is a sex repulsed asexual, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple of alchemicals who are mentioned as having no interest in the touch of a lover but are very much interested in the emotional connection of romance...

I will point out that there are some places where homophobia is a thing, but some of them actually have good reasons (see, Yugash, in Autochthonia, where they are in desperate straights due to losing 20% of their population to war coupled with the Soul Shortage, and have encouraged everyone to breed like bunnies to try and deal with the combination, humping is no longer sufficient, no you are not allowed to requisition contraceptives citizen, special privileges to expectant mothers and fathers, and homosexuality is being treated as unpatriotic whereas a generation ago it was celebrated because they had too many mouths and not enough food: It may be really awful, but it makes a kind of sense just given the demographic crisis they're suffering).

[Ifni]

Kai, a Sidereal Savant of 350 years, is a sex repulsed asexual, and I'm pretty sure there are a couple of alchemicals who are mentioned as having no interest in the touch of a lover but are very much interested in the emotional connection of romance...

Ah, neat, I've seen Kai's name but haven't read about them.


I will point out that there are some places where homophobia is a thing, but some of them actually have good reasons (see, Yugash, in Autochthonia, where they are in desperate straights due to losing 20% of their population to war coupled with the Soul Shortage, and have encouraged everyone to breed like bunnies to try and deal with the combination, humping is no longer sufficient, no you are not allowed to requisition contraceptives citizen, special privileges to expectant mothers and fathers, and homosexuality is being treated as unpatriotic whereas a generation ago it was celebrated because they had too many mouths and not enough food: It may be really awful, but it makes a kind of sense just given the demographic crisis they're suffering).

Yup. It occurs in some places, but it's not part of the general cultural background of the setting. (Likewise misogyny - there are one or two pretty nasty women-are-property patriarchies in Creation, but it's not the default.)

[golentan]

Ah, neat, I've seen Kai's name but haven't read about them.

Yup. It occurs in some places, but it's not part of the general cultural background of the setting. (Likewise misogyny - there are one or two pretty nasty women-are-property patriarchies in Creation, but it's not the default.)

Well, it's very hard to maintain a patriarchy when the primary rulers through history have been women (see: Queen Merela, Scarlet Empress, and so forth) who are individually capable of razing a continent to the ground and where surviving a hardship or standing up to your oppressors is a valid reason for anyone to acquire that level of power.

Similarly why oppressive matriarchies are rare, I think. And a lot of the slavers in creation are super eager to unload their cargo where it can't get back to them (selling to the Realm or the Fair Folk or other creatures who can be relied on to kill their cargo either if one of the slaves exalts or before they get the opportunity, or into trade markets such as Nexus where there's something Stompier than a fresh celestial in the form of the Emissary). I've actually wondered how much the guild's trade in human souls has expanded over the years the more distant the memory of the Solars gets.

On the flipside, when an exalt moves in and starts imposing their prejudices, it gets really ugly really fast, not least because of the general ability to run roughshod over mortal free will. And when gods start freaking out about stuff like "NO WOMEN ALLOWED PRETTIER THAN ME" well... you get places like Coral... Until an exalt moves in and goes "Yeah. Lady. Sailor. You know what, whole fleet gonna be staffed by women. Come at me, puny gods. I dare you. I. FREAKING. DARE. YOU."

[Coidzor]

Well, it's very hard to maintain a patriarchy when the primary rulers through history have been women (see: Queen Merela, Scarlet Empress, and so forth) who are individually capable of razing a continent to the ground and where surviving a hardship or standing up to your oppressors is a valid reason for anyone to acquire that level of power.

Similarly why oppressive matriarchies are rare, I think. And a lot of the slavers in creation are super eager to unload their cargo where it can't get back to them (selling to the Realm or the Fair Folk or other creatures who can be relied on to kill their cargo either if one of the slaves exalts or before they get the opportunity, or into trade markets such as Nexus where there's something Stompier than a fresh celestial in the form of the Emissary). I've actually wondered how much the guild's trade in human souls has expanded over the years the more distant the memory of the Solars gets.

On the flipside, when an exalt moves in and starts imposing their prejudices, it gets really ugly really fast, not least because of the general ability to run roughshod over mortal free will. And when gods start freaking out about stuff like "NO WOMEN ALLOWED PRETTIER THAN ME" well... you get places like Coral... Until an exalt moves in and goes "Yeah. Lady. Sailor. You know what, whole fleet gonna be staffed by women. Come at me, puny gods. I dare you. I. FREAKING. DARE. YOU."

Almost makes those guys that wanna unmake the whole shebang seem like they make a lot of sense, if you can ignore the Hellraiser references.

[golentan]

Almost makes those guys that wanna unmake the whole shebang seem like they make a lot of sense, if you can ignore the Hellraiser references.

Firstly, no, secondly, no, thirdly, it's a fun setting.

[Kittenwolf]

I know a few people who have played Exalted, but unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to do so.
Always loved the idea of playing a Lunar though, with the shapeshifting of awesome.

[golentan]

I know a few people who have played Exalted, but unfortunately I've never had the opportunity to do so.
Always loved the idea of playing a Lunar though, with the shapeshifting of awesome.

Honestly, would you be on board with playing an alchemical? They can do a lot of similar stuff to lunars (including some shapeshifting stuff with Manifold Transhuman Implants) albeit with an "Everything is Mechanical" bent.

I've been itching for an exalted game for months now, and Autochthonia is my favorite part of the setting, and being on the plane last week I reread my setting book for it and have been dreaming of electric sheep since.

[Ifni]

I once played an Autochthonian Lunar, with the other PCs all being Alchemicals. It was a very fun game, while it lasted. (The premise was that after the Seal was broken, Celestial Exaltations could get through and Exalt ordinary Autochthonians. This was somewhat startling for the Alchemicals. The other PCs' first exposure to Lunar Exalted was "... the tunnel-folk child, from the community we were trying to protect/relocate, just transformed into a giant rat and eviscerated the giant gremlin snake-monster. Wait, what?" And then it developed from there.) And in another game, I'm playing a Creation-born Lunar who's managed to get into Autochthonia and is exploring. Hmm. I seem to have a bit of a thing for Autochthonia+Lunars :smallwink:

But yes, if you like the Alchemical thematics, my understanding is that their mechanics are somewhat better than those for Lunars, in Exalted 2e.

[Kittenwolf]

Honestly, would you be on board with playing an alchemical? They can do a lot of similar stuff to lunars (including some shapeshifting stuff with Manifold Transhuman Implants) albeit with an "Everything is Mechanical" bent.

I've been itching for an exalted game for months now, and Autochthonia is my favorite part of the setting, and being on the plane last week I reread my setting book for it and have been dreaming of electric sheep since.


I must admit I haven't read the Exalted stuff in a very long time so I have no clue who the Alchemicals are :)



Sadly, I lost my old tailcoat. It's very sad, I have no idea what happened to it. I do however have a rocking longcoat, styled to look like military dress. I shall have to take a picture.

That.. sounds pretty amazing. I'd definitely be interested in seeing a pic

[golentan]

I once played an Autochthonian Lunar, with the other PCs all being Alchemicals. It was a very fun game, while it lasted. (The premise was that after the Seal was broken, Celestial Exaltations could get through and Exalt ordinary Autochthonians. This was somewhat startling for the Alchemicals. The other PCs' first exposure to Lunar Exalted was "... the tunnel-folk child, from the community we were trying to protect/relocate, just transformed into a giant rat and eviscerated the giant gremlin snake-monster. Wait, what?" And then it developed from there.) And in another game, I'm playing a Creation-born Lunar who's managed to get into Autochthonia and is exploring. Hmm. I seem to have a bit of a thing for Autochthonia+Lunars :smallwink:

But yes, if you like the Alchemical thematics, my understanding is that their mechanics are somewhat better than those for Lunars, in Exalted 2e.

As much fun as I'm having with this talk, it's gone wildly off topic for the thread, so I will spoiler the off topic parts and then continue with LGBT stuff below.

I had a heroic NPC turn villain as a lunar in my Xexas game once, leading to one of the most memorable encounters in exalted I ever played. He was the lover of one of the PCs (who was gay, so tangentially on topic?) but he had to be left behind in the Pole of Smoke because storms and gremlins and he fell over the side during a combat evac and they thought he was dead. He managed to find shelter and survive long enough that since the Seal had been breached (Xexas had no way to know Yugash was pressing into creation and vice versa) he earned a lunar exaltation. He was so happy to live, and was trying to find a way back to reunite with his lover and city, but without a flying creature he was having trouble making it under his own power... But he noticed when he shifted in blight zones, he could manifest new traits...

I treated blight zones as wyld zones for chimerism, you see. And I gave him Dissonance instead of permanent limit. By the time he had enough control to grow wings and fly back on his own, he had lost control of his own sanity, and was blaming his former companions for his abandonment rather than the harshness of life as a Scavenger.

When the Assembly realized who the horrifying monster serial killer stalking the city was, my friend looked at me and said "Golentan, you are a sick, twisted genius." And since as a Chimera he was almost literally unkillable, he was a recurring character for the rest of the series.

@Neo_Leviathan: Alchemicals are the chosen of the Primordial Autochthon, who sided with the gods in their rebellion and forged the mechanism of exaltation. He's the sick child of the primordials, a crippled genius whose primary theme as I see is that he can accomplish things undreamed of by any of the others through the use of his tools, but less without them. When the Solars started to get crazy and paranoid about some of their former allies, Autochthon got paranoid about when and whether they'd turn on him, and so kidnapped a million or so of his closest mortal friends, a hundred million souls for the road, and left. They live inside him, in the world of Brass and Shadow, a giant machine world with forests of pistons and lightning sparked from capacitors, tended by the Machine Spirits (Exmachina) he has made to regulate himself.

He then decided to hibernate for a few millennia to wait out whatever craziness was going on in creation, and to make sure his human buddies didn't go extinct he gave them Exalted Champions to keep them safe: The Alchemicals don't wind up in charge generally because they must install charms as upgrades during which time they're helpless, so a dictator could never continue to progress in power, and when they grow old they metamorphose in to living cities which tend the needs of their citizenry. Alchemicals are built as artificial bodies and imbued with the soul and memories of a legendary hero across many lifetimes: Imagine that George Washington was also Robin Hood, Abraham Lincoln, and Martin Luther King, and WAS Washington DC issuing his opinions of policy to congress, his streets patrolled by the reincarnation of Wyatt Earp and Elliot Ness brought back as Robo-Batman and working with the police force and you have a rough idea of how Alchemicals work.

On topic, anyone else sexually fluid? Been having weird moments with that... Though I will say, Miraqariftsky is the cutest person ever, regardless of where I find myself on the kinsey scale day to day.

[noparlpf]

On topic, anyone else sexually fluid? Been having weird moments with that... Though I will say, Miraqariftsky is the cutest person ever, regardless of where I find myself on the kinsey scale day to day.

Does fluctuating between aro/ace and grey-ace count? :smalltongue:

[Astrella]

Sexually fluid as in shifting between various states of not understanding my sexuality? Then yes.

[golentan]

Probably both those count, yeah. It's frustrating when I go from a kinsey 1 to a 5 without warning though.

Making a game. (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?451313-Nurad-Calls-for-Aid!-(Exalted-2-5)&p=19961034#post19961034)

[noparlpf]

Probably both those count, yeah. It's frustrating when I go from a kinsey 1 to a 5 without warning though.

Yeah, you've mentioned it before. That still sounds much more frustrating than mine.

[Jormengand]

On topic, anyone else sexually fluid? Been having weird moments with that...

Yes. Weirdly it changes with my gender, with my female side being an almost-hypersexual pansexual and my agender side managing to be asexual while still panromantic but barely romantic either. My male and androgyne sides kinda float somewhere in the middle in a floating fashion.

[Comrade]

I've gotten together a couple hundred dollars and will, if all goes well, be receiving $100 a month for helping to care for my grandmother. Aiming to schedule a consultation at a nearby informed consent clinic by the end of the month. Hopefully, I'll soon be on my way to beginning HRT-- the primary impediment at this point is financial; as far as I know the cost of HRT seems to waver around $50 a month, but I also need to consider hair removal and voice therapy.

And, well, probably also gonna need to consider how to factor my folks into all this, because I doubt they're as ready for it as I am.

[Grytorm]

Congratulations Comrade. I hope things go well once it starts. Good look with your family.

[Astrella]

Hope your family will adapt well and quickly. I don't know your family as well as you, but I know in my case the whole "I'm gonna transition regardless of what you think" actually made them adapt faster. My point is, like, you can take their perspective in account, but don't let that be the only thing determining your choices cause they can be content just sitting around while no progress happens.

Hope it all works out smoothly. If you're struggling for money you could always set up a gofundme or such.

[Serpentine]

I want to read this (http://www.dailylife.com.au/dl-people/interviews/what-i-know-about-men-20151015-gkalfp.html), but the laptop I'm using won't show anything past the first paragraph :smallfrown: As such I don't really have much comment to make, except that Josh Thomas is pretty cool and it looked interesting from what little I can see of it.

Edit: there we go. Got it on my phone.
Hmmm... Lots of fluff, not much content, and the lack of context makes the point of it unclear. I'd be interested to hear what you all think about his experience of feminine gay men in the gay community and his connecting it with misogyny, though.

[Grytorm]

I'm not to certain what to make of it either, although I am not the best at thinking through things like that. One thing I do think of is if the problem partly comes as a byproduct of stereotypes of gay men leading to people lashing out at people who resemble those stereotypes.

[Syless]

Happy asexuality awareness week, everyone! I figure as a grey-ace I should be vaguely aware this week.

[Heliomance]

TIL (http://gaydayslosangeles.tumblr.com/post/111968565701/the-50-weirdest-and-coolest-facts-from-lgbti)

[Serpentine]

It's nice to see something get the nature of ancient Greek same-sex love more or less right.

[genderlich]

Happy asexuality awareness week, everyone! I figure as a grey-ace I should be vaguely aware this week.

I'll do my part: I'm aware of you. :smalltongue:

I don't suppose anyone's optimistic about getting any LGBT characters in the new Star Wars films? I feel like media of that level of popularity isn't quite willing to take that "risk" yet. Which...is pretty messed up but probably the sad reality.

[Orcus The Vile]

TIL (http://gaydayslosangeles.tumblr.com/post/111968565701/the-50-weirdest-and-coolest-facts-from-lgbti)

There are some errors in that site.

At number 2 Seth actually tried to rape Horus in very sad and horrible scene. It was not a good exemple of gay sex in mythos.

And number 8 it really depends of the region. Some regions such as Sparta and Delphi believed that passive gays were problematic and only allowed non-penetrative sex.


I'm not to certain what to make of it either, although I am not the best at thinking through things like that. One thing I do think of is if the problem partly comes as a byproduct of stereotypes of gay men leading to people lashing out at people who resemble those stereotypes.


I want to read this (http://www.dailylife.com.au/dl-people/interviews/what-i-know-about-men-20151015-gkalfp.html), but the laptop I'm using won't show anything past the first paragraph :smallfrown: As such I don't really have much comment to make, except that Josh Thomas is pretty cool and it looked interesting from what little I can see of it.

Edit: there we go. Got it on my phone.
Hmmm... Lots of fluff, not much content, and the lack of context makes the point of it unclear. I'd be interested to hear what you all think about his experience of feminine gay men in the gay community and his connecting it with misogyny, though.

This is going to be a very unpopular opinion but all this hate, there is a logic behind it.

Imagine you trying to prove to everyone you know that just because you are gay that don't mean you are that stereotyped feminine flamboyant gay guy just because of it. You can be masculine and manly and that has nothing to do with being gay.

And then a feminine gay guy go on and ruin all your work by acting out all the stereotypes created by media of how a gay guy should be. Stereotypes that really harm our image of simple ordinary guys.

That is why feminine gay guys suffer so much persecution. Even inside the lgbt community.

[Athedia]

That doesn't mean the hate is right.

Speaking from my sexuality there is a stereotype of asexuals as cold and logical. I am rather the opposite of that even when I try, I cry at commercials and last night was sitting quietly for an hour agonizing over whether I made the best final decision in Life is Strange. But there are actually asexuals who are like that and I don't begrudge that. I am annoyed the media only portrays that when someone who might be ace (are their any openly confirmed asexuals in tv or movies?) but I will not bring those people down to elevate myself. To do so is petty and wrong.

[Orcus The Vile]

That doesn't mean the hate is right.

Speaking from my sexuality there is a stereotype of asexuals as cold and logical. I am rather the opposite of that even when I try, I cry at commercials and last night was sitting quietly for an hour agonizing over whether I made the best final decision in Life is Strange. But there are actually asexuals who are like that and I don't begrudge that. I am annoyed the media only portrays that when someone who might be ace (are their any openly confirmed asexuals in tv or movies?) but I will not bring those people down to elevate myself. To do so is petty and wrong.

Sure it is not right. But you can understand the frustration.
And it is not the same thing. As you said there are no Asexuals in media. Some people don't even know that is possible. It is different when i character that looks asexual is cold and logical. He is asexual BECAUSE he is cold and logical.

With gays it is the opposite. They say you are are flamboyant BECAUSE you are gay. So if you are cold and logical you may be asexual but if you are gay YOU GOT to be flamboyant.
And that sucks because there are gay characters in media but they don't represent us. They represent a caricature that is forced upon all of us. And some gay guys just reinforce that.

[Astrella]

Pretty sure a minority can't reinforce their own stereotypes. The issue here is with the media and representation, not with feminine gay guys.

[Athedia]

Because for those guys that is who they are. Some guys, both straight and gay and everything else on the plate are that way. Same way some lesbians (or otherwise on the plate of being attracted to females while identifying as such) are 'butch' or 'femme' but most are just average people with no calling to either look.

The hate that is put on those men is stemming from a form of envy at how they are accepted. And yes it sucks to set people straight, but that is life for now. As for the ace thing, people say I can't be asexual because of my emotions and the fact that I date. So yeah, I wish those stereotypes didn't exist but I can use them as a branching off point, "Well actually.....". Again, I wish I didn't have to do that. But I refuse to bring other people down for who they are and tell them to stop acting in a way that makes them happy.

[noparlpf]

Pretty sure a minority can't reinforce their own stereotypes. The issue here is with the media and representation, not with feminine gay guys.

But it's so much easier to bash a minority than it is to fight the media. Even if the minority in question is the one you're a part of. :smallsigh:

[Ifni]

The hate that is put on those men is stemming from a form of envy at how they are accepted.

I don't think it's this: I wouldn't say that feminine gay men are more accepted than masculine gay guys. More visible, yes, but the stereotype of the feminine gay guy has some pretty negative connotations. It's not a positive/neutral stereotype that feels fine if it describes you, and is just annoying in an abstract sense ("no, darnit, not all Australians are easy-going extroverts") if it doesn't.

My suspicion is that part of why masculine gay men are so intent on distancing themselves from the "feminine gay guy" stereotype is not just that it doesn't describe them, but also that it feels offensive and derogatory when applied to them - whether true or not, it makes people think less of them. And I think that probably ties into a general devaluing of femininity and feminine traits, among society as a whole, not just gay men.

(As far as I know, lesbians don't have an analogue where more masculine women are devalued or disliked. In fact, from a quick search it looks like it's the opposite: more feminine women are sometimes viewed as "not real lesbians". The common factor, on a first glance, seems to be that feminine traits are viewed negatively.)

[Astrella]

There's a lot of hatred towards butch/non-conforming lesbians/bi women/etc... specifically.

[Ifni]

There's a lot of hatred towards butch/non-conforming lesbians/bi women/etc... specifically.

Hatred directed at them from within the lesbian community, as opposed to wider society? (in analogy to anger by masculine gay men against feminine gay men) If so, that's interesting - sad, but interesting. I have lesbian friends but I'm not a member of that community, I was just going by reading some articles and comments, so I could well have missed that dynamic if all the articles I read were by people emphasizing femmephobia and glossing over the opposite.

Hmm, this is the support thread... should we drop or spoiler this convo? I'll spoiler what I was going to say next; content note for discussion of transphobia.

I know there's some hostility against trans lesbians among parts of the lesbian community, especially pre-SRS, but my understanding was that was more about transphobia than masculine/feminine gender expression - the anti-trans-lesbian posts I've seen have been at least as nasty toward feminine trans women.

[Astrella]

Both, gender non-conformity is never going to win you any friends, but just think about stereotypes about "ugly, hairy lesbians" etc... butch women often get accused of having male privilege and stuff as well from inside communities etc...

Femmephobia is also a bit of a pointless term in my opinion cause it's just misogyny, whether directed or misplaced at play. Femininity isn't bad because of femininity, it's bad because of the association with women.

[Orcus The Vile]

The big problem is that even though we should be united we are as community really suffer a lot of internal discrimination.

There is hate on flamboyant gays for "being too feminine".

There is hate on manly gays for "not being gay enough" and "adjusting better" in a patriarchal society.

There is hate on Bi for "being indecisive" or "Just a gay guy without the guts to come out".

There is hate on manly lesbians for having male privilege and "just not found the right guy".

There is a hate on feminine lesbians for "not being real lesbians".

There is a lot of hate on asexuals since a lot of people don't get them.

There is a lot of hate on trans. Both inside and outside I tink they are the one who suffer more hate than the others.

Sadly we are not nearly as united as we should.

[EternalMelon]

I'm a Girl!

Yay!

No more closet!

Not that you know who I am, as this is the only times I've posted I've had an alt name.
But be warned! I'm going to be making a lot of posts needing help on this!

But for now I am excite!

Yay!

[JNAProductions]

I'm a Girl!

Yay!

No more closet!

Not that you know who I am, as this is the only times I've posted I've had an alt name.
But be warned! I'm going to be making a lot of posts needing help on this!

But for now I am excite!

Yay!

Yay! More females!

Welcome to the Playground, EM. Word of advice, though-you aren't supposed to have alt accounts, so you might want to consolidate them.

But yay! Girl!

[Dire Moose]

This is really more an extension of a discussion in the questions thread, but the subject falls more under support so I'm posting it here. This was difficult to type even knowing who I was talking to.

Basically, I may have hit an answer of some sort in examining my gender identity, and what I've found is really scaring me.

So today I found myself asking the question of "regardless of any other factors, what type of body would I most want to have?"

I almost immediately jumped to an answer. Although I would still keep my male parts, I would still prefer to be female otherwise.

That admission took me completely by surprise and I started emotionally breaking down. Yet the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was true. And all the implications are truly frightening. I could never tell my parents, for one. They've already heard enough odd revelations from me including my coming out as bisexual a few years ago that they'll probably see it as a plea for their attention instead. And my dad especially would probably react horribly. When I was dating a trans girl four years ago, he refused to be around her, went out of his way to avoid using pronouns to refer to her, and insisted that she wasn't a woman. My mom was trying to understand but still sort of disconnected from the reality of the situation. If I told them what I'd realized, I don't think I could expect a good reaction.

Also, I was already having issues with starting and maintaining relationships, but now it would be even worse. I can't think of a lot of people who would want to date someone trapped between genders (and who would remain in between even at best). As for having friends, I can think of one or two who would stay,, but I don't know about the rest. My best friend, whom I have known for 17 years, was totally on board with me being bi, but once I had a trans girlfriend he started to waver a bit and told me in private at one point that "she looks like a guy with long hair." I don't honestly know whether that friendship would survive.

Also, regarding other issues, I'm already feeling bad about not dating a lot in the last few years and seeing people younger than me getting married, and I've wasted my time in college to the point where I can't qualify for the master's degree I need in my field. The last thing I need is something else to regret spending the last few years not doing, and this is making me feel like even more of a failure. I had started to think about this when I was around 12-13 and buried it when it started worrying me the first time; if only I had done more then maybe I wouldn't be in this position now.

And the worst is that regardless of everything I've mentioned I still have serious doubts. Maybe I've been hanging around and sympathizing with certain people so much that I somehow want to be one of them as a result. Maybe I just find that sort of thing attractive and jumped to the conclusion because of it. My experience definitely doesn't fit the usual pattern since I don't have soul-crushing depression about my body and my childhood was not spent doing feminine things or playing dress-up. I've generally identified more with male characters than female ones. And I don't have any desire to get SRS done; shouldn't that be suspicious?

I still need to make a decision soon. At 28, I still have time to make some progress if this is indeed me, but I don't want to wait too long and be one of those people who didn't do anything until they were 55 and married. But all of my concerns and doubts are still holding me back, telling me not to do anything rash and that I (correctly) still don't know for sure. In short, I'm completely overwhelmed and scared and I don't know a lot of people I can really turn to right now for it.

[JNAProductions]

I don't really know what to say to help your situation, Moose. All I can do is offer you support. *Offers you hugs* And remind you you're a wonderful person, whether you're male, female, or something not quite either.

If you need to talk in private, send me a Private Message. I'll do what I can to help.

[Syless]

I'm a Girl!

Yay!

No more closet!

Not that you know who I am, as this is the only times I've posted I've had an alt name.
But be warned! I'm going to be making a lot of posts needing help on this!

But for now I am excite!

Yay!

Congratulations, and welcome to the long and winding road!


This is really more an extension of a discussion in the questions thread, but the subject falls more under support so I'm posting it here. This was difficult to type even knowing who I was talking to.

Basically, I may have hit an answer of some sort in examining my gender identity, and what I've found is really scaring me.

So today I found myself asking the question of "regardless of any other factors, what type of body would I most want to have?"

I almost immediately jumped to an answer. Although I would still keep my male parts, I would still prefer to be female otherwise.

That admission took me completely by surprise and I started emotionally breaking down. Yet the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was true. And all the implications are truly frightening. I could never tell my parents, for one. They've already heard enough odd revelations from me including my coming out as bisexual a few years ago that they'll probably see it as a plea for their attention instead. And my dad especially would probably react horribly. When I was dating a trans girl four years ago, he refused to be around her, went out of his way to avoid using pronouns to refer to her, and insisted that she wasn't a woman. My mom was trying to understand but still sort of disconnected from the reality of the situation. If I told them what I'd realized, I don't think I could expect a good reaction.

Also, I was already having issues with starting and maintaining relationships, but now it would be even worse. I can't think of a lot of people who would want to date someone trapped between genders (and who would remain in between even at best). As for having friends, I can think of one or two who would stay,, but I don't know about the rest. My best friend, whom I have known for 17 years, was totally on board with me being bi, but once I had a trans girlfriend he started to waver a bit and told me in private at one point that "she looks like a guy with long hair." I don't honestly know whether that friendship would survive.

Also, regarding other issues, I'm already feeling bad about not dating a lot in the last few years and seeing people younger than me getting married, and I've wasted my time in college to the point where I can't qualify for the master's degree I need in my field. The last thing I need is something else to regret spending the last few years not doing, and this is making me feel like even more of a failure. I had started to think about this when I was around 12-13 and buried it when it started worrying me the first time; if only I had done more then maybe I wouldn't be in this position now.

And the worst is that regardless of everything I've mentioned I still have serious doubts. Maybe I've been hanging around and sympathizing with certain people so much that I somehow want to be one of them as a result. Maybe I just find that sort of thing attractive and jumped to the conclusion because of it. My experience definitely doesn't fit the usual pattern since I don't have soul-crushing depression about my body and my childhood was not spent doing feminine things or playing dress-up. I've generally identified more with male characters than female ones. And I don't have any desire to get SRS done; shouldn't that be suspicious?

I still need to make a decision soon. At 28, I still have time to make some progress if this is indeed me, but I don't want to wait too long and be one of those people who didn't do anything until they were 55 and married. But all of my concerns and doubts are still holding me back, telling me not to do anything rash and that I (correctly) still don't know for sure. In short, I'm completely overwhelmed and scared and I don't know a lot of people I can really turn to right now for it.

For what its worth, everything you've been describing (in this post and others) reminds me of my own experiences coming to terms with my own gender (in terms of personal stuff, anyway, not interpersonal). While that means absolutely nothing in regards to yours, I'd like to think it can help counterbalance the cliche standard narrative, since that's just a source of endless doubt.

[ArlEammon]

I need help getting out the closet. :/

[Ifni]

My experience definitely doesn't fit the usual pattern since I don't have soul-crushing depression about my body and my childhood was not spent doing feminine things or playing dress-up. I've generally identified more with male characters than female ones. And I don't have any desire to get SRS done; shouldn't that be suspicious

Just to comment on this: I'm not trans and can't speak from personal experience, but as a cis woman who reads blogs and posts by trans women, I'm pretty sure this doesn't tell you much. Even just looking at binary trans people (as opposed to non-binary): not everyone has body dysphoria (and for those who do it's not always easily recognizable), and not every trans woman is feminine or likes stereotypically "girly" things. I'm not even sure if trans women with those tendencies and experiences are in the majority. I suspect their prevalence may get exaggerated due to the Standard Trans Narrative and gatekeeping - it's sometimes easier to get treatment if you conform (or pretend to conform) to those expectations.

Hope things work out for you, Dire Moose.

[Coidzor]

I need help getting out the closet. :/

What kind of help? Need a bit more to go on before we can advise you, after all.

[Astrella]

I'm a Girl!

Yay!

No more closet!

Not that you know who I am, as this is the only times I've posted I've had an alt name.
But be warned! I'm going to be making a lot of posts needing help on this!

But for now I am excite!

Yay!

Hi, gratz on coming out. :)

[Rain Dragon]

Happy asexuality awareness week, everyone! I figure as a grey-ace I should be vaguely aware this week.

Oh, I didn't know. :smalleek:
Thanks for making me aware!


This is really more an extension of a discussion in the questions thread, but the subject falls more under support so I'm posting it here. This was difficult to type even knowing who I was talking to.

Basically, I may have hit an answer of some sort in examining my gender identity, and what I've found is really scaring me.

So today I found myself asking the question of "regardless of any other factors, what type of body would I most want to have?"

I almost immediately jumped to an answer. Although I would still keep my male parts, I would still prefer to be female otherwise.

That admission took me completely by surprise and I started emotionally breaking down. Yet the more I thought about it, the more I realized it was true. And all the implications are truly frightening. I could never tell my parents, for one. They've already heard enough odd revelations from me including my coming out as bisexual a few years ago that they'll probably see it as a plea for their attention instead. And my dad especially would probably react horribly. When I was dating a trans girl four years ago, he refused to be around her, went out of his way to avoid using pronouns to refer to her, and insisted that she wasn't a woman. My mom was trying to understand but still sort of disconnected from the reality of the situation. If I told them what I'd realized, I don't think I could expect a good reaction.

Also, I was already having issues with starting and maintaining relationships, but now it would be even worse. I can't think of a lot of people who would want to date someone trapped between genders (and who would remain in between even at best). As for having friends, I can think of one or two who would stay,, but I don't know about the rest. My best friend, whom I have known for 17 years, was totally on board with me being bi, but once I had a trans girlfriend he started to waver a bit and told me in private at one point that "she looks like a guy with long hair." I don't honestly know whether that friendship would survive.

Also, regarding other issues, I'm already feeling bad about not dating a lot in the last few years and seeing people younger than me getting married, and I've wasted my time in college to the point where I can't qualify for the master's degree I need in my field. The last thing I need is something else to regret spending the last few years not doing, and this is making me feel like even more of a failure. I had started to think about this when I was around 12-13 and buried it when it started worrying me the first time; if only I had done more then maybe I wouldn't be in this position now.

And the worst is that regardless of everything I've mentioned I still have serious doubts. Maybe I've been hanging around and sympathizing with certain people so much that I somehow want to be one of them as a result. Maybe I just find that sort of thing attractive and jumped to the conclusion because of it. My experience definitely doesn't fit the usual pattern since I don't have soul-crushing depression about my body and my childhood was not spent doing feminine things or playing dress-up. I've generally identified more with male characters than female ones. And I don't have any desire to get SRS done; shouldn't that be suspicious?

I still need to make a decision soon. At 28, I still have time to make some progress if this is indeed me, but I don't want to wait too long and be one of those people who didn't do anything until they were 55 and married. But all of my concerns and doubts are still holding me back, telling me not to do anything rash and that I (correctly) still don't know for sure. In short, I'm completely overwhelmed and scared and I don't know a lot of people I can really turn to right now for it.

Aw, congrats, and I hope you don't let the details get you down for now. It's pretty hard trying to take in everything at once and I hope you don't still feel overwhelmed. (I know I felt overwhelmed when I first looked up trans related stuff). One step at a time is a good start.

Time will tell, so I wouldn't spend too much time dwelling on it. I've heard a lot of stories of trans people who also don't fit that more 'standard' (I don't know that it is until I see more stats) trans narrative (though I fit many elements of it myself) so there's no real reason to doubt yourself based on that alone if you ask me.

Well from 28 to 55 is an entire 27 years. That's a heck of a long time and spending a couple of months experimenting with looks, introspection, even RPing female characters in video games is not much more than an eyeblink in that time. Maybe try to think of some short term things you can try to focus on like reading a couple of articles? Just a little bit at a time. :smallsmile:

[EternalMelon]

Yay! More females!

Welcome to the Playground, EM. Word of advice, though-you aren't supposed to have alt accounts, so you might want to consolidate them.

But yay! Girl!


Congratulations, and welcome to the long and winding road!.


Hi, gratz on coming out. :)

Thank you all for your support. Don't worry, my alt account hasn't posted in over a year, and only had a few posts, so no use in consolidation.

[Dire Moose]

Thank you all for your support. Don't worry, my alt account hasn't posted in over a year, and only had a few posts, so no use in consolidation.
I'd also like to thank everyone who responded, and I really admire your confidence and positive attitude about the whole thing. I only wish I could be so upbeat and decisive.

[Grytorm]

Does anyone else ever avoid posting here because they feel horrible and don't want to either be here seeking attention or be here to hear everyone else trying to save your life by stopping whatever you are thinking of. I kind of wish I had a poison that would allow me to post here in my dying moments avoiding both sides of the problem. But that again goes back to seeking attention. But because I do not I would have to do something after posting here. But at the very least by posting this some of the desire dissipates. So, yeah. Sorry to disturb you so dramatically.

[EternalMelon]

I'd also like to thank everyone who responded, and I really admire your confidence and positive attitude about the whole thing. I only wish I could be so upbeat and decisive.
Oh, I deleted the second part of my post. The part pertaining to you.

Don't worry about time. I decided my position FIVE YEARS AGO, and spent the last five fighting with myself. (although thoughts have always been there.) The decisiveness is because I was SICK of the back and forth and...

I'm getting off topic. The point is I'm not thinking hard about this. I'm not trans, I'm a girl. And even thats not my true viewpoint. I am Melon. Melon likes to wear skirts and dresses and to be cute. I want an ample chest and to snuggle. I am not "trans", or a "woman". I am me. If tomorrow I don't want to wear a skirt I wont, If I never do again then I'll have this memory of being happy. If I don't want this later, then at least its off my mind. After five years of waiting for this though, I think this is what I want.

And ****.

Its time I get what I want.

....

I got off topic. Something something labels something something do what you want something something use time as a reinforcment.

Something Something.


Does anyone else ever avoid posting here because they feel horrible and don't want to either be here seeking attention or be here to hear everyone else trying to save your life by stopping whatever you are thinking of. I kind of wish I had a poison that would allow me to post here in my dying moments avoiding both sides of the problem. But that again goes back to seeking attention. But because I do not I would have to do something after posting here. But at the very least by posting this some of the desire dissipates. So, yeah. Sorry to disturb you so dramatically.
I should have posted my post when I was done, not half an hour later...

Posting here can be scary, It can feel like breaking into a conversation midway, or intruding on a clique* but we (errr... the people here) are here to HELP, their having so many different conversations its impossible NOT to intrude. But don't be afraid to post.

As for seeking attention, of course you need attention to tell people things! Else your just venting into space. ANd if you want to vent and DONT want everyone to jump on you to help, maybe jsut say "Im just venting here"?

Oh, and don't take poison. Trust me, it sucks... no ones going to be mad or shruedenfruedic or pitying you here. Most of us are in the same boat.

Hope that helps.

[Svata]

Does anyone else ever avoid posting here because they feel horrible and don't want to either be here seeking attention or be here to hear everyone else trying to save your life by stopping whatever you are thinking of. I kind of wish I had a poison that would allow me to post here in my dying moments avoiding both sides of the problem. But that again goes back to seeking attention. But because I do not I would have to do something after posting here. But at the very least by posting this some of the desire dissipates. So, yeah. Sorry to disturb you so dramatically.

Hey, I know the feel. And know that this may not help. But no one here will think you're attention seeking. Not without being called on their dickishness. So no need to be afraid (even though if you're like me you will anyway). Go ahead and say whatever's on your mind.

Also no poison. Bad. No. 'S a bad idea. Don't. Do. It.

[Grytorm]

Okay I am in a bit better state of mind. Introspection is still a dark chamber. But not in a truly horrible mood. But thank you for the bits of support. Yeah and I know that people here are nice, just I have a lot of anxiety sometimes. But I have been here for a decent amount of time. I just don't offer enough support most of the time.

[Heliomance]

So I met this girl at work the other week, made friends, saw her again today, chatted.

- Cute
- Get on really well
- Confirmed lesbian (or bi)
- Has a fiancée

>_>

Seriously. Any time I meet someone I might be interested in, they turn out to be straight, ace, or taken. Or some combination.

[Kittenwolf]

So I met this girl at work the other week, made friends, saw her again today, chatted.

- Cute
- Get on really well
- Confirmed lesbian (or bi)
- Has a fiancée

>_>

Seriously. Any time I meet someone I might be interested in, they turn out to be straight, ace, or taken. Or some combination.

Oh that sucks :(
I hope your luck changes soon :)


Also, I've come to a decision. I've decided that my life is too... stagnant, I never manage to make myself do anything spontaneous or outside social norms.
Therefore at some point soon I'm going to do the "Say yes to everything" challenge. For one day I'm not allowed to disagree to decline anything (self destructive or such things notwithstanding). No way this could go wrong, right?

[Coidzor]

Therefore at some point soon I'm going to do the "Say yes to everything" challenge. For one day I'm not allowed to disagree to decline anything (self destructive or such things notwithstanding). No way this could go wrong, right?

If there's a lot of beggars in your area, remember to carry loose change.

[KyooTrap]

update to cute girl situation! we connected over tumblr and facebook and I invited her to my friends movie night! the movie was ENTER THE VOID (warning if you look it up, there's lots of sex, drugs, that kind of thing) and we cuddled all night and it was awesome! A few days later I went over to her dorm and we cuddled more :D it was so fun! That was this past Tuesday, and today she came into my work again, and when I got off of work we went to a pond and fed some ducks :) so far it has been super fun and I can't wait to spend more time with her! She invited me to a party at her college tomorrow night, and then Saturday one of my movie night friends just got the vampire expansion for the Mafia-style game Werewolf so we're all gonna play that! I'm so excitedddddd

also dis is her :3 (http://puu.sh/kU5m9/3cde85020f.jpg)

[Dire Moose]

Oh, I deleted the second part of my post. The part pertaining to you.

Don't worry about time. I decided my position FIVE YEARS AGO, and spent the last five fighting with myself. (although thoughts have always been there.) The decisiveness is because I was SICK of the back and forth and...

I'm getting off topic. The point is I'm not thinking hard about this. I'm not trans, I'm a girl. And even thats not my true viewpoint. I am Melon. Melon likes to wear skirts and dresses and to be cute. I want an ample chest and to snuggle. I am not "trans", or a "woman". I am me. If tomorrow I don't want to wear a skirt I wont, If I never do again then I'll have this memory of being happy. If I don't want this later, then at least its off my mind. After five years of waiting for this though, I think this is what I want.

And ****.

Its time I get what I want.

Sounds like a good attitude to have. And especially the part I bolded I really have to agree with.

Now, since a "before" picture may be needed for the future, here's one of me as I am now. No makeup or feminine clothing or any attempt to present as female at all, just me. I'd like to know if you think I can do it and how I might wind up in the future.

http://i757.photobucket.com/albums/xx218/TheDireMoose/Picture1_zpsukyabfsj.jpg

Also, one thing I've been kicking myself over lately is that my attempts to change my voice haven't been going well, and back when I was 12-13 I had a really pretty singing voice that was up in the soprano range. If only I had started then when I was first realizing how I felt, maybe I would still have it now.