FLI - Fighter's Little Improvement (input welcomed)

[NevinPL]

I don't really understand the fighter "dislike". It's a simple class (no dizzying amount of skills, spells to choose from), for a simple task (breaking heads\doors\etc.), done simply (with muscles*).
The "dislike" should be for people who put such "mundane" class, in such "metaphysical" setting.



FLI - Fighter's Little Improvement


Adventures: Same as in PHB.
Characteristics: Same as in PHB.
Alignment: Same as in PHB.
Religion: Same as in PHB.
Background: Same as in PHB.
Races: Same as in PHB.
Other Classes: Same as in PHB.
Role: Same as in PHB.



Game rule information:
Abilities: Same as in PHB.
Alignment: Same as in PHB.
Hit Die: Same as in PHB.
Random Starting Gold: Same as in PHB.

Class Skills
The fighter’s class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Sense Motive (Wis), Survival (Wis), Use Rope (Dex).
Skill Points at 1st Level: (4 + Int modifier) × 4.
Skill Points at Each Additional Level: (4 + Int modifier).

http://i.imgur.com/WX3U6nw.png

Class Features

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Same as in PHB.

Bonus Feats: These bonus feats can be drawn from the feats noted as fighter bonus feats, or the general ones available to all classes.

Fighter Conditioning (Ex): Fighters begin conditioning their bodies very early.
This grants you a +2 bonus on strenuous actions checks like swimming, forced marches, etc.
Additionally, you can sleep, run in medium armor without incurring the normal penalties.
Bonus increases by +1 every two fighter levels above first.

Maneuver Training (Ex): Fighters train not only with weapons, but with various combat maneuvers too.
Beginning at 2nd level, you choose number of them equal to 2 + INT or WIS modifier (whichever is higher, minimum 2) from the following: Bull rush, Disarm, Grapple, Overrun, Sunder, Trip. You get a +2 bonus to their checks. Every four levels thereafter, you choose an additional maneuver, and the bonus increases by +1 every two fighter levels above second.
Additionally, from 5th level on, you can choose to perform them as a move action. From 10th, you can choose to perform them as a swift action, but you can’t perform more than one maneuver per round. From 15th you can choose to perform two of the maneuvers you’ve chosen in one round as a standard action.

Breaking and entering (Ex): A 3rd level Fighter is so proficient with breaking doors, that he gets a +2 bonus to strength checks or damage dealt. Bonus increases by +1 every two fighter levels above third.
Additionally, after successfully breaking open a door, he can immediately make a 5 foot step (which provokes attack of opportunity), and perform a single attack using weapon he holds, with the highest base attack bonus.

Horsemanship (Ex): At 3rd level Fighter gains intuitive knowledge about the animal he’s closest too - his mount.
This manifests as a +2 bonus on Ride, and Handle animal checks, but only while using horse, or other mount.
Bonus increases by +1 every two fighter levels above third.

Battle-hardened (Ex): At 4th, 8th, and 12th level, fighter gains hit points equal to 1/3 of his total hit points (rounded up). Threat this increase like one gained from leveling up, or Toughness feat.
Additionally, you gain a +2 bonus on fortitude saving throws.
Bonus increases by +1 every two fighter levels above fourth.

Always armed (Ex): Fighter’s training makes him armed and dangerous, even when it’s least expected.
At 5th level you no longer provoke attacks or opportunity from armed opponents when you attack them while unarmed.
Additionally, when using improvised weapons, you no longer incur the normal penalties.
If you have Improved unarmed strike feat, you get a bonus to your unarmed damage, equal to half your fighter level.

Fighting style (Ex): Fighter of 6th level knows enough about various combat styles to gains additional bonuses, depending on what he uses.
One weapon:
Add half your fighter level to checks when resisting being disarmed, and weapon damage rolls.
Weapon and a shield:
While charging you don’t suffer the -2 penalty to AC from creatures in front of you (180 degree arc). For critical hits, sneak attacks, and other precision attacks made by creatures in front of you (180 degree arc), your shield is considered as having light fortification.
Two weapons:
As a full round action, which doesn’t provoke attack of opportunity, you can perform a special attack using two weapons that deal the same type of damage. If you hit with both, you get and additional effect:
Two slashing weapons - rend dealing double the base weapon damage and 1.5 times your strength modifier.
Two piercing - treat the target as pinned. for as long as you can hold him.
Two bludgeoning - treat the target as dazed for one round.
Bow and crossbow:
For each point of strength modifier bonus, you increase the bow range increment by 5 feet, to a maximum of 50% more.
If your strength is at least 13 you can reload light crossbows as a swift action, if you have at least 15 you can reload it as a free action, and a heavy crossbow as a move action.
If you study your target for a number of rounds equal to half his HD\level, and then successfully hit that target, you can threat that single attack, as an automatic critical hit.
Requirements for studying are as for assassins Death Attack.

Not dead yet (Ex): Fighter’s constant exposure to death and dying, manifest in ability to sometimes simply “shrug it off”.
At 7th level if a death effect, or other „save-or-die” effect or ability would kill you, you instead have a chance to just drop to negative HP equal to 1d6+2, instead of dying outright. The chance for this equals 10% at 7th, 20% at 11th, and 33% at 15th level.
Additionally you recover from your injuries (HP loss, ability damage, etc.), exhaustion, and fatigue twice fast as normal.

Seen a lot (Ex): A fighter of 7th level or higher, lived and seen enough wounds to use that knowledge to his benefit.
This manifests as a +2 bonus to saving throws against fear.
Additionally, you can make Heal checks but only for First Aid, and Treat Wound from Caltrop, Spike Growth, or Spike Stones options. When doing this, you’re considered as having ranks in Heal, equal to your fighter level.
Bonus increases by +1 every two fighter levels above the seventh.

Always ready (Ex): Reflexes of fighter of 9th level or higher, are so honed that he can make a number of additional attacks of opportunity equal to his base number of attacks, and he’s not limited by one attack of opportunity per one person rule.
If you have the Combat reflexes feat, use the higher number of attacks.
Additionally, you get half of your fighter level as a bonus to initiative checks in surprise round.

Globetrotter (Ex): Fighter of 11th level traveled enough to gain some additional skills.
You gain one skill (or two languages, if you choose Speak language), even one which is normally cross-class for fighter, as a class skill with ranks equal to your fighter level.
Additionally, you gain 3 bonus skill points.

Fits like a glove (Ex): Long usage of heavier armors enables fighter of 13th level and higher, to sleep, run in heavy armor without incurring the normal penalties.
Additionally, armor check penalties for heavy armor you wear, are lessened by 2, and maximum dexterity bonus is improved by 1. 3 and 2 respectively, for medium armor.

Natural born leader (Ex): At 17th level fighter’s fame (or infamy) is known far and wide, which grants him a bonus to leadership, diplomacy, gather information, and intimidation checks equal to half his fighter level.

Stuff of legends (Ex): At 19th level fighter is so proficient in weapons and armor, that he knows all of their weak, and strong points.
When sundering a weapon, you can negate all of its hardness points. When someone tries to sunder your weapon, threat its hardness as 50% higher (rounded down).
Additionally, when attacking someone in armor, you can negate half of its armor bonus to armor class (rounded up). When someone tries to attack you while you’re in armor, threat its armor bonus as 50% higher (rounded up).

Starting Package
Same as in PHB.



Pdf version:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cn7drfnyr1lcpga/FLI%20-%20Fighter%27s%20Little%20Improvement%20v1.01.pdf

[NevinPL]

Changelog

v1.01

removed and added some skills
increased skill points
increased feats choice for bonus feats
added Maneuver training
added Breaking and entering
changed how Battle-hardened works
added Fighting style
added Not dead yet
changed Globetrotter skill bonus

[ngilop]

I love that you are attempting a Fighter fix, after all the poor fighter is my all time favorite class

but you fell into what I like to call the numbers games myth.

The fighter does not really need bigger numbers, which is what all of your class abilities have given them

Instead what a fighter needs is versatility and adaptability.

I do like the bonus to saves you give them only I would give them a save bonus vs fear and compulsions and instead of increasing fort save I would up their reflex


Just give fighters 4 skill points a level starting at first, that kind of weird that a fighter goes the majority of his life then suddenly knows twice as much stuff. just give them 4 a level and call it a day.

Stuff of legends sould be a dodge bonus to AC equal to half the fighter's level and give them that at like 3rd 19th is WAAY to late to get something that is really not that great when you take in in scope.

Batte hardened should give the fighte uncanny and improved uncanny dodge.

WHat I feell makes a great fighter is simple. give the fighter a base set of abilities, then allow the player to customize it to their liking. Jiriku did this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194834-3-5-Fighter-Remix-Doin-it-old-school), and is probably one that nobody will argue about, and I did one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318268-My-Latest-big-project!-(-a-big-deal-fighter-fix))as well.

I will point you to Zeigander's Design Philosphy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276366-The-Fighter-Problem-amp-How-to-Fix-It)on fighters, he has probably made more 'YAFF's than anybody else on this site.

Grod has (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!) two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?242782-The-Legend-(sort-of-a-fighter-fix-sort-of-a-warlock-3-5-PEACH-WIP))really cool fixes you should look at as well.


by versatility and adaptability take a look at my NPC warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317055-NPC-classes-for-my-campaign-world) fix, those abilities I give it could be slapped on a fighter and are low powered enough nott o disrupt things BUT they add to the fighter's not smacking things with a stick reptoire.

[ShiningStarling]

^ lot of good stuff up there, but I'm gonna throw my two cents in because das how I do.

I also did a fighter fix (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?179065-The-New-Fighter-Still-the-Feat-Boy-But-Better&p=9930952#post9930952) at one point (though now I know it as not very good, have for a while). It had many major problems, as most fixes do.

Looking at yours... the only thing I have a real qualm with is that it seems to get Improved Toughness at 15th level more or less, which I find a bit silly, no real reason for a fighter to need that.

Other than that it doesn't look bad, but how much of that will really help the fighter? Class features as a rule are better than feats, but most of these additional features can be done better or faster with feats (mostly skill focus). What the fighter needs, in my boiled down view, is mechanics. They need something to do that they can do better than anyone else. One thing I liked about my fighter fix was it got bonuses to things it took feats from so the feats were more like features. This was not perfect by any stretch of the imagination, but the concept there I feel is important. The fighter could get ZERO feats, but if it had a few solid mechanics it wouldn't matter. What mechanics you ask? If I knew that I would make YAFF :smallwink:

You got the heart and soul, you just need some meat and bones and vital internal organs.

[NevinPL]

Thank you for replies.
I houseruled so much, that I sometimes confuse vanilla, and houserule - the bonus fighter feats, should be chosen form default, and bonus fighter list. My bad.
I don't like, use ToB. And I don't think I will.
Like I've said at the beginning, fighter isn't a good class for high magic setting. You can easily "fix" it by "pumping" it with magic, and stuff, but then it won't be what IMO fighter should be - simple class (no dizzying amount of skills, spells to choose from), for a simple task (breaking heads\doors\etc.), done simply (with muscles*).



I love that you are attempting a Fighter fix, after all the poor fighter is my all time favorite class
I wouldn't go as far as favorite, but one of, for sure.


but you fell into what I like to call the numbers games myth.

The fighter does not really need bigger numbers, which is what all of your class abilities have given them

Instead what a fighter needs is versatility and adaptability.
I don't think that's a myth - fighter needs bigger numbers in attack, and HP (later in miss chance, etc.), because that's what he does - giving and receiving "ouch". Or at least that's how I see it.
Also, the links you provided, they do that too, even yours YAFF, so I find what you wrote "strange".
And I also think I gave him a bit of adaptability and universality. Not much, because of what IMO fighter is, but it's nonetheless there.


...I would give them a save bonus vs fear and compulsions and instead of increasing fort save I would up their reflex
No - won't fit the fluff, my idea of fighter.


Just give fighters 4 skill points a level starting at first, that kind of weird that a fighter goes the majority of his life then suddenly knows twice as much stuff. just give them 4 a level and call it a day.
Not strange like real life. But you're right, 4 skill points are better, and looks like it's a consensus in Fighter Fixes.
I think I will look at skill list too.


Stuff of legends sould be a dodge bonus to AC equal to half the fighter's level and give them that at like 3rd 19th is WAAY to late to get something that is really not that great when you take in in scope.
No - no jumping tanks ;)
More seriously, I've tried to add things that you can't get with feats (+/-), or improve (with) feats. So no doge bonus, bonus to (standard) initiative checks, weapon damage, etc.
Although, first draft was like that - some number and a specific feat. But fighter already has a lot of feats, so I found it redundant.
As for it being not great like I've implied earlier - mundane class in metaphysical setting can't be great.


Batte hardened should give the fighte uncanny and improved uncanny dodge.
No - no jumping tanks. And if you really want it, you can get in another way.

As for the links you provided, looks like they ToB too much, or try to make some spell-less Duskblade. Since that's not what IMO fighter should be...


Looking at yours... the only thing I have a real qualm with is that it seems to get Improved Toughness at 15th level more or less, which I find a bit silly, no real reason for a fighter to need that.
It's an attempt to improve his survivability. But I agree it could be better. I just don't have an idea that would fit with my fighter, this fix vision.


What the fighter needs, in my boiled down view, is mechanics.
IMO they need non, or at least low magic setting.
It's like dumping in medieval a "Social media specialist", or programmer, only vice versa (sort of).

[nonsi]

I love that you are attempting a Fighter fix, after all the poor fighter is my all time favorite class

but you fell into what I like to call the numbers games myth.

The fighter does not really need bigger numbers, which is what all of your class abilities have given them

Instead what a fighter needs is versatility and adaptability.

I do like the bonus to saves you give them only I would give them a save bonus vs fear and compulsions and instead of increasing fort save I would up their reflex


Just give fighters 4 skill points a level starting at first, that kind of weird that a fighter goes the majority of his life then suddenly knows twice as much stuff. just give them 4 a level and call it a day.

Stuff of legends sould be a dodge bonus to AC equal to half the fighter's level and give them that at like 3rd 19th is WAAY to late to get something that is really not that great when you take in in scope.

Batte hardened should give the fighte uncanny and improved uncanny dodge.

WHat I feell makes a great fighter is simple. give the fighter a base set of abilities, then allow the player to customize it to their liking. Jiriku did this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?194834-3-5-Fighter-Remix-Doin-it-old-school), and is probably one that nobody will argue about, and I did one (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?318268-My-Latest-big-project!-(-a-big-deal-fighter-fix))as well.

I will point you to Zeigander's Design Philosphy (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276366-The-Fighter-Problem-amp-How-to-Fix-It)on fighters, he has probably made more 'YAFF's than anybody else on this site.

Grod has (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?276280-GitP-Fighter-Fix-18343-3-Ziegander-Grod-Tag-Team-Action!) two (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?242782-The-Legend-(sort-of-a-fighter-fix-sort-of-a-warlock-3-5-PEACH-WIP))really cool fixes you should look at as well.


by versatility and adaptability take a look at my NPC warrior (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?317055-NPC-classes-for-my-campaign-world) fix, those abilities I give it could be slapped on a fighter and are low powered enough nott o disrupt things BUT they add to the fighter's not smacking things with a stick reptoire.

Don't knock numeric augmentations. A solid Fighter fix needs those too.
Yes, I know that there's enough in the official materials to produce damage freaks, but it requires you to spend most of your character's resources to achieve it and you end up with a 1-dim character.

I won't argue that Jiriku has handled many of the Fighter issues, but he did so by creating a mini-game within the game. That's too much stuff for a single class in my view.

What a solid Fighter fix needs (alongside of built-in numeric boost) is a lot of customability (at least 1/2 that of an average spellcaster... e.g. Bard).
A solid Fighter fix is not just an archer/berserker/cavalier/foot soldier/juggernaut/knight/samurai/spelless ranger/swashbuckler/templar/warlord archetype, but 2, 3 or even 4 selected archetypes wrapped into a single character - using a single base class (with the above list being examples for a much wider list of archetypes).

After years of experimenting and seeing just about every Fighter fix out there, this is the closest I've come to a satisfactory result (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?396998#11).

[ShiningStarling]

It's an attempt to improve his survivability. But I agree it could be better. I just don't have an idea that would fit with my fighter, this fix vision.

IMO they need non, or at least low magic setting.
It's like dumping in medieval a "Social media specialist", or programmer, only vice versa (sort of).

If you want to improve his survivability with that, I would suggest giving it to him earlier, then scaling it harder, because at the level you give it, demons are doing that much damage to the fighter by making him think too hard, before they even come in with the flaming swords. and for real survivability? that AND damage reduction AND better AC, because defenses in 3.5 scale horribly in the vanilla game.

As for mechanics... every other class has them, at least to an extent (except barbarians). Fighters are highly trained individuals, they aren't your average militiamen. Feats literally mean "great accomplishments", and the fighter gets tons of them, and from what you've said, the only "great accomplishment" you want him to have is hitting something kinda hard 4 times in 6 seconds. Yeah, him and every other schmuck with a greatsword lucky enough to live that long. Fighters should be special, these are Player Characters for crying out loud! If you really want them to just be feats, then give them disarming and sundering stuff for free, give them combat focus stuff from CW or PHII or wherever it was, but give them some mechanic, otherwise they're just another walking vanilla icecream come waiting to be licked down to nothing by the first red dragon they meet.

*deep breathing*

Ok, so to put it another way, when a party fights someone with equal character levels to them, it should expend about a quarter of their resources to beat said equal-leveled threat. For wizards, might take a little more, same for clerics, especially at high levels. But fighting just a fighter? Um, web, entangle, stinking cloud... he can't move anymore, and now he's dead. From 3 low level spells, some arrows, maybe a few Magic missiles... that's like a particularly aggressive walk in the park.

If you want a tank, make it a tank, don't put the label "Fighter" on it, "no jumping tanks" should have nothing to do with the Fighter as a whole. They have to do things.

*looks up* Ok I think that rant was long enough, sorry if I bored you... but really, I used to hate the ToB, thought it was overpowered, but when we actually used it, suddenly everyone was relevant again in fights, and we could then fight harder stuff, which was more fun. The Warblade isn't perfect, but its the "unofficial Official" fighter fix, and its fun. So don't just hate on their "almost magic" or whatever, learn from it what people think a fighter should be able to do when they put their mind to it.

[NevinPL]

If you want to improve his survivability with that, I would suggest giving it to him earlier, then scaling it harder...
Yeah, I was thinking about it. Came up with the idea that he will get it on couple levels. I just don't know how much % he can get 3x10 ? 5, 10, 15 ?


...AND damage reduction AND better AC...
He can get Damage reduction from other sources. Better AC is available via Stuff of legends, and other sources too.


...the only "great accomplishment" you want him to have is hitting something kinda hard 4 times in 6 seconds.
Fighter's "great accomplishments" are already there:

being just a "muscle", he can* survive in a high magic setting,
he does what he does, without magic, or enough amount of sleep,
he wakes up, and he's ready* to bust some heads.


Great accomplishments, prestige, are for classes better suited for high magic setting, or prestige ones.


Fighters should be special, these are Player Characters for crying out loud!
Better. And vanilla ones are terrible as PC, I agree, hence YAFF.


If you really want them to just be feats...
Looks like you didn't read what I've wrote earlier.
Please do. It will help you not to waste time, getting upset, and me in improving this fix.


...then give them disarming and sundering stuff for free, give them combat focus stuff from CW or PHII or wherever it was...
Like you said fighter gets tons of them (feats), so it's up to the person playing Fighter, to choose what he likes.
Like some people here, I too don't like the idea of forcing fighter down "one" path.
But I do think of some bonus to some combat actions, (disarm, trip, etc.).


Ok, so to put it another way, when a party fights someone with equal character levels to them, it should expend about a quarter of their resources to beat said equal-leveled threat.
And the only resource fighter expels are his HP, at least at lower levels. But he can get that back right away. Getting back spells isn't that easy.
And no, scrolls, wands can only get you so far, especially with the vanilla limitations.


But fighting just a fighter? Um, web, entangle, stinking cloud... he can't move anymore, and now he's dead.
Without more details, it's just as a horrid generalization as... well, find your own, I don't want another warning.
Also, Web and Entangle could be working not the way you think.


I used to hate the ToB, thought it was overpowered, but when we actually used it, suddenly everyone was relevant again in fights, and we could then fight harder stuff, which was more fun.
I don't hate ToB because it's overpowered. I don't like it because it doesn't fit in my view of martial combat. Because it adds another set of rules, etc.


So don't just hate on their "almost magic" or whatever, learn from it what people think a fighter should be able to do when they put their mind to it.
I don't.
As for the later part, If I'd agreed with what other people think what fighter should be, I would be making mine vision of it, wouldn't I ?
To make it clear as glass (steel) - I make stuff for me, because I see it that way. I ask for input because I'm not all-knowing, etc., but I will change stuff only within the "borders" I've created.
Don't know, maybe people do that for fame, glory, and acceptance\acclaim, but I'm not.

[Zale]

I'm a bit confused.

You say that you don't want to force fighters along a particular path, but at the same time you only want them to be 'tanks'?

I don't dislike fighters because they're weak. I dislike them because they're boring. Feats don't really offer the level of customization I want in a class. It's hard to make a fighter that doesn't strongly resemble every other fighter in the world. The main difference between them is usually a minor amount of damage and how well they do on some rolls.

Compare that with the difference between two wizards, even of the same specialization.

Your fighter fix doesn't seem to add much, if any, customization beyond that one skill you get to pick. The class features they do get are basically just Add X to Y. While that's great and all, it doesn't really change much about how the fighter is played. They still basically just walk up and hit things until something dies.

But I gathered that's what you intended.

Also, does 'tank' mean something different than what I thought it did? I always understood 'tank' as the character role based on defending other players and soaking damage in their place.

I don't, for one, see how this fighter fix does that at all. It has no abilities in place that facilitate that.

[NevinPL]

You say that you don't want to force fighters along a particular path, but at the same time you only want them to be 'tanks'?
There's a difference between making fighter a disarm, or two weapon fighting master, and trying to improve a bit "across the board".


I dislike them because they're boring.
Well, duh - non-metaphysical class is boring in very metaphysical setting.


Feats don't really offer the level of customization I want in a class.
No one is forcing you to use them, be "here".


It's hard to make a fighter that doesn't strongly resemble every other fighter in the world.
And why he\they should ? There are only as much ways to bust heads, doors.
Just like real life military. Every nations soldiers, will be basically the same in their respective categories:

Russian armored cavalry doesn't ride clockwork\cyborg bears, just some tanks, and stuff. Just like American or Chinese.
Chinese air force doesn't use dragons, just planes, helicopters, etc. Just like American or Russian.



The main difference between them is usually a minor amount of damage and how well they do on some rolls.
Well, duh.


Compare that with the difference between two wizards, even of the same specialization.
Compare Zastava with Mercedes.


Your fighter fix doesn't seem to add much, if any, customization beyond that one skill you get to pick.
1. I was thinking about "x or y" instead the way it's now, but then I would be doing that forcing down the "one" path I don't want to do.
Although I'm thinking of two main "bonuses" per level.
2. 11 bonus feats of customization is a lot more that any other class.
3. The fix is not finished yet. Baator, I didn't even update it with the things I've mentioned I would.


The class features they do get are basically just Add X to Y.
Just like other classes: add x to spells per days, add x to number of wild shapes known, etc.
Wizard's, which you make as sort of "customization paragon", customization ends on the spells known, prepared. And that can be reduced to spells prepared with enough money, and kind DM.


While that's great and all, it doesn't really change much about how the fighter is played. They still basically just walk up and hit things until something dies.

But I gathered that's what you intended.
Well yes. What else a Fighter should do ? Sing "stim songs" ? Hurl fireballs ? Change into an elemental ? ?!


Also, does 'tank' mean something different than what I thought it did? I always understood 'tank' as the character role based on defending other players and soaking damage in their place.
In this case, it's an simplification meant to show what IMO fighter should be:
simple class (no dizzying amount of skills, spells to choose from), for a simple task (breaking heads\doors\etc.), done simply (with muscles*).


I don't, for one, see how this fighter fix does that at all. It has no abilities in place that facilitate that.

3. The fix is not finished yet. Baator, I didn't even update it with the things I've mentioned I would.

[Zale]

Well, duh - non-metaphysical class is boring in very metaphysical setting.


That's only true if you make it so. It's easily possible to have completely non-metaphysical characters that still have a variety of options in combat which make them interesting to play.

Even in D&D. Half the stuff from ToB isn't even supernatural, after all.



No one is forcing you to use them, be "here".


If you don't want critiques or input, then you just have to say so.



And why he\they should ? There are only as much ways to bust heads, doors.
Just like real life military. Every nations soldiers, will be basically the same in their respective categories:

Russian armored cavalry doesn't ride clockwork\cyborg bears, just some tanks, and stuff. Just like American or Chinese.
Chinese air force doesn't use dragons, just planes, helicopters, etc. Just like American or Russian.



There are lots of ways to fight. I mean, there are hundreds of books on just different kinds of European fencing styles alone. 3.5 tends to abstract combat, which often results in fighters being unable to do things because there aren't any set rules for it.



1. I was thinking about "x or y" instead the way it's now, but then I would be doing that forcing down the "one" path I don't want to do.
Although I'm thinking of two main "bonuses" per level.
2. 11 bonus feats of customization is a lot more that any other class.
3. The fix is not finished yet. Baator, I didn't even update it with the things I've mentioned I would.

Just like other classes: add x to spells per days, add x to number of wild shapes known, etc.
Wizard's, which you make as sort of "customization paragon", customization ends on the spells known, prepared. And that can be reduced to spells prepared with enough money, and kind DM.


I'm a wizard. I can learn as many spells as a I want. I can completely change my spell load-out literally overnight. I can tailor my entire class around a single event or problem, and then change that every day if I want.

Fighters get 11 feats they never ever get to change. The difference between one fighter and another is probably going to be a couple of numbers in specific situations. A wizard can vary more from day to day than a fighter will ever differ from another fighter.

That's what I'm talking about. Feats are no excuse for not having class features. Everyone gets feats. Fighters get somewhat more feats, which is great, don't get me wrong- but I fail to see how that makes up for being absolutely the same outside of feat selection.



Well yes. What else a Fighter should do ? Sing "stim songs" ? Hurl fireballs ? Change into an elemental ? ?!

In this case, it's an simplification meant to show what IMO fighter should be:
simple class (no dizzying amount of skills, spells to choose from), for a simple task (breaking heads\doors\etc.), done simply (with muscles*).

In my own opinion, Fighters should be capable of engaging in combat in a way that is both interesting and effective; they should also have options and uses outside of combat. They should be versatile enough to cover a wide variety of character concepts that involve the use of weapons and fighting, including things like Archery, Mounted Combat, Defending Others, etc. This should include good feat selection, but should be complemented by variable class features.

Ideally, a party made entirely of fighters should be able to handle problems without issue; it should be possible for each character should have a distinct method of fighting that doesn't duplicate the others.

Of course, I have high standards for fighters. Your standards may differ.

I just wanted to give you my opinion on your fighter fix, because I feel like it doesn't address to core issue of fighters. But, hey, if you don't want input on that, it's cool.

[ShiningStarling]

I will preface this by saying I did get a bit hot and bothered previously, sorry about that.


Like you said fighter gets tons of them (feats), so it's up to the person playing Fighter, to choose what he likes.
Like some people here, I too don't like the idea of forcing fighter down "one" path.
But I do think of some bonus to some combat actions, (disarm, trip, etc.).

In this instance, I was saying "give them some free paths so that they can be free to use their bonus feats for other things", feat economy and all that. When your feats are your features, and with the amount of feats you get amounting to what, 3 trees and some odds and ends more or less? Makes sense to me to give them more specific ones that expand their options right away to give them some diversity of action.



Without more details, it's just as a horrid generalization as... well, find your own, I don't want another warning.
Also, Web and Entangle could be working not the way you think.

Yes, I was generalizing, but mostly I was trying to point out the Fighter's general helplessness in the face of magic without magical aid of his/her own, especially in crowd control situations. The spells mentioned above are all 2nd circle or lower, and would almost certainly stop a 3rd level fighter, and then some. Mostly using a bad example to point out poor magic defenses, my fault for the bad test case.



I don't hate ToB because it's overpowered. I don't like it because it doesn't fit in my view of martial combat. Because it adds another set of rules, etc.

I wasn't saying you thought it was OP, I was saying I was, my own past thoughts, nothing more. And it is a much more Eastern aesthetic of fighting, more sword saint less sword and board, not everyone's cup of tea.



I don't.
As for the later part, If I'd agreed with what other people think what fighter should be, I would be making mine vision of it, wouldn't I ?
To make it clear as glass (steel) - I make stuff for me, because I see it that way. I ask for input because I'm not all-knowing, etc., but I will change stuff only within the "borders" I've created.
Don't know, maybe people do that for fame, glory, and acceptance\acclaim, but I'm not.

As a postface, again, apologies for getting a bit overexcited there before. It was because you were looking for input that I went ahead and put all my thoughts out there. I am also not all-knowing, and therefore when a broad topic is breached, I tend to throw everything I have at the wall and see what sticks, which is certainly not the best approach.

As a post-postface, I see no issue with improving the fighter "trying to improve a bit 'across the board'", in fact, that's what I was trying to say all along... in entirely too many words. Basically my core thought is, the fighter feats presented to us in source material are fine... but the fighter doesn't get enough of them... and other people can do it too. So for me, across the board improvement would be giving them all the tools I can for them to participate in battle (attack, disarm, grapple, trip, bull rush, etc), and then let them use their bonus feats to choose what paths they will continue to follow. Everyone else has to pick a path and stick with it a long way, btu the fighter starts further down every path and gets to the end faster than other people... if that makes sense.

Basically, I want the fighter's feat choices to never be squandered, always be worthwhile, not wasted on too many prerequisites and gateways. Gateway feats are for people who didn't carefully study tactics and train to fight like no one else (I'm looking at you Rangers and wannabe gish Sorcerers). That's my core principle, and I should have just stuck with that. So... yeah. Sorry again for getting worked up, this was all I meant.

EDIT: Ok this amused me so I have to put it here:

Just like real life military. Every nations soldiers, will be basically the same in their respective categories:

Russian armored cavalry doesn't ride clockwork\cyborg bears, just some tanks, and stuff. Just like American or Chinese.
Chinese air force doesn't use dragons, just planes, helicopters, etc. Just like American or Russian.
I loved this bit here. Though I will say, the people in the military are only PCs if they do something super important... otherwise they're just warriors, NPCs. I think its a little rude to the fighter to lump him/her with the common rabble soldier.

[nonsi]

Well yes. What else a Fighter should do ? Sing "stim songs" ? Hurl fireballs ? Change into an elemental ? ?!




A must:
- Rival any other class in deliverng punishment.
- Stand where all others fall.
- Recover like no one else can.
- Exploite action economy betther than others.
- Come close to the monk's battlefield mobility.
- Control the battlefield
- Be a lot more than a 1-trick pony.


Optional:
- Perform combat maneuvers better than any other class
- Actually defend allies in more ways than just being a meat shield
- Have an overall superior knowledge of warfare.
- Possess superior combat readiness.
- Be a leader of men in battle.
- Get by without magical weapons/armor/shield.

[Deepbluediver]

A must:
- Rival any other class in deliverng punishment.
- Stand where all others fall.
- Recover like no one else can.
- Exploit action economy better than others.
- Come close to the monk's battlefield mobility.
- Control the battlefield
- Be a lot more than a 1-trick pony.
That kind of depends on what you're aiming for- if you want to bring a Fighter up to tier 1 or 2 to compete with existing high-level classes then yes, you need to invent new mechanics for them to use. The OP here seems more interested in just having a competent brawler, something around tier-4-ish.

[NevinPL]

[...]
I don't see a reason to yet again repeat, and quote myself, so I won't.


I will preface this by saying I did get a bit hot and bothered previously, sorry about that.
Don't worry too much. I prefer honest emotions, to fake politeness.


Makes sense to me to give them more specific ones that expand their options right away to give them some diversity of action.
Yeah, I was thinking about something like that, but then it won't be a "simple class".
I don't know, it look like I would have to rework the whole idea.
But, but.., I just wanted to "patch" fighter up, not make it from 0.
http://i.imgur.com/vn4GfcT.gif


and would almost certainly stop a 3rd level fighter, and then some.
And which 3rd level class wouldn't be ?


...I tend to throw everything I have at the wall and see what sticks, which is certainly not the best approach.
No it isn't :)


So for me, across the board improvement would be giving them all the tools I can for them to participate in battle (attack, disarm, grapple, trip, bull rush, etc), and then let them use their bonus feats to choose what paths they will continue to follow.
IMO it's to much. And limiting it to "n" choices, bugs me, because IMO it should be based on some "brain" ability, and fighters aren't WIS, or INT "heavy".


I loved this bit here. Though I will say, the people in the military are only PCs if they do something super important... otherwise they're just warriors, NPCs. I think its a little rude to the fighter to lump him/her with the common rabble soldier.
Fighter is "common rabble soldier", maybe not the conscript\private level (thats Warrior), but still not an officer. IMO some lower level NCO's top.
You want better fighter, specializations, you use another class:

combat medic - Paladin
sneaky, sniper-ish scout - Ranger
special forces - Duskblade

etc.
Fighters are default "captain of the watch", etc., because fighter is a core base class, and obvious choice. Among other things.


[...]
I agree with the "general thought" behind it - fighter has to be a lot better, but I don't think it can be done without overcompensating into overpowered, and losing the "simple class" idea.


The OP here seems more interested in just having a competent brawler, something around tier-4-ish.
OP is leaning towards the idea of two classes - the one presented here, and the one "everybody" suggests - "Arnie Armageddon".

[Deepbluediver]

If there's any dislike for the fighter, it's only because we dislike that he's not as awesome as we picture him in our mind.

OP is leaning towards the idea of two classes - the one presented here, and the one "everybody" suggests - "Arnie Armageddon".
Well, the reason most people tend to make their Fighter fixes more complex is because D&D is a game with a very wide variety of situations to account for. As far as I can tell, you've buffed up a a few of the things the fighter usually does, but there's still a large number of situations, evne combat-only situations, that you haven't taken into account. Like Flying enemies, incorporeal enemies, enemies with save-or-die abilities, etc.

[ShiningStarling]

If there's an dislike for the fighter, it's only because we dislike that he's not as awesome as we picture him in our mind.

... Yup, I think I don't need to say anymore... that pretty much sums it up.

But I think I am getting part of the point... really, the fighter doesn't belong with the wizards of the world, at least in terms of power. Heck, even with some of the "power" (read as: utility) I would suggest for the fighter really is just bells and whistles on the locomotive while the wizards rush past on bullet trains. So it would seem fighters, as written in the Player's handbook, simply should not accompany wizards and expect to perform on par... but I think we all knew that from the start.

So, closing thoughts:
Does this improve the fighter? Yes
Does it make the fighter match wizards? No
Was that the goal? No
Are we ok with that? The OP is, so th-th-th-that's all folks.

[Deepbluediver]

really, the fighter doesn't belong with the wizards of the world, at least in terms of power.
Well, yes and no. Arthur had 40 knights but only one Merlin. Aragorn led armies but there was only 1 Gandalf. However, there are in-story reasons why those types of characters with the ability to single-handedly rewrite history had limits on both their powers and how many of them there were. In D&D, you're allowed to pile as many of any one type of character into a party as your DM will permit.
A Phenomenon I sometimes call "magic ninja syndrome" after a certain well-known anime.
Now, not all the classes need to be exactly the same level of power and versatility. They can be harder or easier to build and play to the highest level. However I believe the vast majority of people will agree that the level of variance in standard 3.5 D&D is to high, and if we can narrow the gap somewhat, then that's probably a good thing.

You can approach this from 2 directions; bring the fighter and similar classes up, and bringing the caster-classes down (the latter which tends to be much more complicated). So I'm not saying we need all Fighters to be tier 1, but for the sake of gameplay balance they shouldn't be tier 5, either.


The OP is, so th-th-th-that's all folks.
Yeah, but he asked for feedback.

[nonsi]

I agree with the "general thought" behind it - fighter has to be a lot better, but I don't think it can be done without overcompensating into overpowered, and losing the "simple class" idea.


Simple just doesn't work for classes that are devoid of powers that bend reality.
I tried that angle approx. 10 time. It failed miserably.
Every such attempt I've encountered has failed miserably.
15 years of 3e (with hundreds of online Fighter debates) have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that an effective simple-fighter-fix is an oxymoron.

[nonsi]

... Yup, I think I don't need to say anymore... that pretty much sums it up.

But I think I am getting part of the point... really, the fighter doesn't belong with the wizards of the world, at least in terms of power. Heck, even with some of the "power" (read as: utility) I would suggest for the fighter really is just bells and whistles on the locomotive while the wizards rush past on bullet trains. So it would seem fighters, as written in the Player's handbook, simply should not accompany wizards and expect to perform on par... but I think we all knew that from the start.


Yes - as written in the Player's handbook.
This doesn't mean that the problem cannot be remedied, or at least significantly narrowed down.

[nonsi]

So I'm not saying we need all Fighters to be tier 1, but for the sake of gameplay balance they shouldn't be tier 5, either.
Yeah, but he asked for feedback.

The sweet spot for me is high T3 in terms of power and low-mid T3 in terms of versatility (pulling your weight, but not hogging the spotlight).

[ShiningStarling]

Yes - as written in the Player's handbook.
This doesn't mean that the problem cannot be remedied, or at least significantly narrowed down.

Well, with that comes the implication that band-aids won't be making their world spin backwards either.


Well, yes and no. Arthur had 40 knights but only one Merlin. Aragorn led armies but there was only 1 Gandalf. However, there are in-story reasons why those types of characters with the ability to single-handedly rewrite history had limits on both their powers and how many of them there were. In D&D, you're allowed to pile as many of any one type of character into a party as your DM will permit.
Phenomenon as "magic ninja syndrome" after a certain well-known anime.
Now, not all the classes need to be exactly the same level of power and versatility. They can be harder or easier to build and play to the highest level. However I believe the vast majority of people will agree that the level of variance in standard 3.5 D&D is to high, and if we can narrow the gap somewhat, then that's probably a good thing.

You can approach this from 2 directions; bring the fighter and similar classes up, and bringing the caster-classes down (the latter which tends to be much more complicated). So I'm not saying we need all Fighters to be tier 1, but for the sake of gameplay balance they shouldn't be tier 5, either.

I like this post, I like it a lot. Leadership is such a good feat... it fixes the problems of the fighter by outsourcing his class features. :smalltongue:

[Deepbluediver]

Yes - as written in the Player's handbook.
It rather obvious though from the PHB and other early 3.5 books that WotC expected most wizards to be blasters (and most clerics to be healbots). Under those circumstances, the Fighter can in fact often keep up or at least contribute. The problems arose because a lot of the other magic schools ended up so OP because WotC thought they needed to do that to make them attractive.


The sweet spot for me is high T3 in terms of power and low-mid T3 in terms of versatility (pulling your weight, but not hogging the spotlight).
I'm actually fine with anything between tiers 2 to 4. The benefit of having the party all be about the same tier-level, is that if encounters seem to easy to relatively simple to step things up so they are more challenging.


I like this post, I like it a lot. Leadership is such a good feat... it fixes the problems of the fighter by outsourcing his class features. :smalltongue:
Leadership is usually considered problematic for other reasons, but sure I guess it's very appealing to a certain archetype of fighter. Although I think it falls outside the boundaries of what the OP was going for (since he wants to keep things simple) I could definitely see it being an ACF.

[NevinPL]

[...]
Beside classes that can fly, become incorporeal themselves, etc., none take that into an account, so I don't know why you single out fighter.


[...]
Glad to see someone agrees with my views on fighter.


[...]
You're not taking into an account that Arthurian legends is loooow magic. Beside Merlin, Morgana is the only widely known magic user.
Also knight != fighter, knight = knight vide PHB II

Middle-earth is low magic too.
Aragorn was a ranger, not a fighter, and after deciding to be a king, got some additional magical skills.

Also plot, "Character Shield", etc.

In DnD, magic, and magic users "pour out of everything", that's why a measly fighter doesn't fit, is so weak, and IMO can't.

As for asking for feedback:

...but I will change stuff only within the "borders" I've created.


[...]
I think Leadership is nice too, hence Natural born leader.

[Deepbluediver]

Beside classes that can fly, become incorporeal themselves, etc., none take that into an account, so I don't know why you single out fighter.
Uh, because this is a FIGHTER fix thread? Yes it's a problem with multiple classes; that means you can apply different ways of addressing the issue, not that you should just ignore it.


In DnD, magic, and magic users "pour out of everything", that's why a measly fighter doesn't fit, is so weak, and IMO can't.
So what exactly are you trying to "fix", then? You've given the fighter a few extra resistances and a few cross-class psuedo-skill boosts, but you haven't really addressed most of the issues that people normally have with this class. It's less of a fix and more of a tweak, a half-step in a particular direction.

[NevinPL]

Uh, because this is a FIGHTER fix thread? Yes it's a problem with multiple classes; that means you can apply different ways of addressing the issue, not that you should just ignore it.
Just saying.


So what exactly are you trying to "fix", then?
Guess I want to "improve" fighter, make it a bit more fun to play that the vanilla one.
As for fixing, it looks like it's more "Holy Grail-ish"- than with other classes, so it's for hold for now.


...but you haven't really addressed most of the issues that people normally have with this class.
As you can see I don't have them, have other, but I understand what you're saying.
I think.


It's less of a fix and more of a tweak, a half-step in a particular direction.
On that I agree - I went over the top with the title, hence a new one: FLI - Fighter's Little Improvement.

[NevinPL]

Buffed it as much as I'm comfortable with.
Changelog in second post.

[Extra Anchovies]

It buffs their combat ability, but that's not enough. They still have basically screwall to do outside of combat.

Is Breaking And Entering a flat damage boost to all hits, or only to damage vs objects? It doesn't specify.

[NevinPL]

It buffs their combat ability, but that's not enough.
It is for me. Why ? I wrote earlier.


Is Breaking And Entering a flat damage boost to all hits, or only to damage vs objects? It doesn't specify.
It's named Breaking and entering, not Breaking heads, mentions doors, and strength checks, so yeah, it concerns only doors.

[ShiningStarling]

I have a question about "Stuff of Legends", what happens when two fighters of that level fight?

Also, "Not Dead Yet"... Those are all fortitude saves, the ones he should be making... this is essentially 1/4 of Mettle with a very unlikely activation chance. Also wondering how many death effects would really be around in a low-magic setting as you mention? And if there are many, maybe a straight buff vs. Death would help more? Or maybe something a little more abstract, like "The Fighter is treated as having 100 more hit points for the purposes of Symbols and Power Words" or something like that? Just tossing ideas, I like the changes you made overall, again, for low-magic settings.

[NevinPL]

I have a question about "Stuff of Legends", what happens when two fighters of that level fight?
Since it's similar in mechanic to Improved Uncanny Dodge, and it that case something happens only if a character has 4 rogue levels more, nothing happens, that means they cancel each other out.


Also, "Not Dead Yet"... Those are all fortitude saves, the ones he should be making... this is essentially 1/4 of Mettle with a very unlikely activation chance.
Well, you yourself said that the earlier attempts "to improve his survivability" were weak.
1 in 3 is not very unlikely.
Also, comparing this to Mettle is "strange".


Also wondering how many death effects would really be around in a low-magic setting as you mention?
Don't know, don't do low-magic, because DnD is not low-magic (at least not the "default" one), and trying to make it one, is straight way to Ulcerville.


And if there are many, maybe a straight buff vs. Death would help more?
AD&D much ? ;)
Also what straight buff ? Some death thingies don't allow anything - blam, you're death.


Or maybe something a little more abstract, like "The Fighter is treated as having 100 more hit points for the purposes of Symbols and Power Words" or something like that?
Since the issue with my improvement, is that it improves too little, why you want to improve even less ?


...for low-magic settings.
I shudder to think what you consider even a default-magic setting...

[nonsi]

1 in 3 is not very unlikely.


It's not very likely either - and that's as good as it gets.




Also what straight buff ? Some death thingies don't allow anything - blam, you're death.


I'm not sure if your claim of "don't allow anything" is relevant to ObliviMancer's suggestion, given the following quote from Not Dead Yet:
"At 7th level if a death effect, or other „save-or-die” effect or ability would kill you, you instead..."

Having a small chance of being almost dead (and dying) instead of dead is hardly attractive.

[ShiningStarling]

Since it's similar in mechanic to Improved Uncanny Dodge, and it that case something happens only if a character has 4 rogue levels more, nothing happens, that means they cancel each other out.
Ok, cool :smallcool:


Well, you yourself said that the earlier attempts "to improve his survivability" were weak.
1 in 3 is not very unlikely.
Also, comparing this to Mettle is "strange".
Um... well... its a thing that makes your saving throws mean more... so yeah, Evasion, Mettle, whatever floats your boat, kinda similar to it


Don't know, don't do low-magic, because DnD is not low-magic (at least not the "default" one), and trying to make it one, is straight way to Ulcerville.
... I thought this was for a low magic thing? Like, you mentioned it earlier? If not I am a shade lost on how this improvement is meant to make me feel safer or more confident whilst playing a fighter


Since the issue with my improvement, is that it improves too little, why you want to improve even less ?
That mechanic was just a suggestion, I thought of it for some bloodline or something a while back and thought it apropos for what you were going for.


I shudder to think what you consider even a default-magic setting...
Again, I thought we were improving the fighter to live up to a low magic setting... if this fighter is still meant to go up against demons, dragons, archmages and high priests, I still find it quite lacking. Honestly I would play it just like I would a normal fighter, dip for feats and proficiencies then take enough prestige classes to choke a horse, or even better, take spellcasting and do my job better than the schmucks who spent their hours taking down hay dummies instead of unhinging the universal order with three seconds of hand waving and gibberish.

[NevinPL]

"Errated" Battle-hardened (should grant 1/3, not 1/30).



... I thought this was for a low magic thing? Like, you mentioned it earlier? If not I am a shade lost on how this improvement is meant to make me feel safer or more confident whilst playing a fighter
I think you're confusing things\jumping to conclusions.
As for feeling safe, it's up to you\your DM. I feel way safer with this improvement, than with the vanilla class, but I think it's obvious that my "view" on DnD is quite different than the "default" one.
Or at least my view on\of (:D) fighter in DnD.