Ranger5/Bard6/X??

[GiantOctopodes]

So it occurs to me that at some people's tables, with the nerfs they've made to the ranger, straight ranger may not be worthwhile. That made me think of fun and effective multiclass options for that class, and by far the best multiclassing option for Rangers is Bard, specifically College of Lore Bard. After all, it provides the following benefits:

Inspiration Dice. Far better than a reroll! A d8 when added to an existing D20 roll (especially when generally speaking, players will soon enough know whether or not they're close to hitting the mark) allows its use to be maximized, turning what otherwise would be a miss into a hit, or allowing that lock to be picked where otherwise it would not, or whatever else. Since on a hit generally speaking you have an ability modifier, and the weapon's damage dice, it adds far more than a d8's worth of damage to your party's efforts, in addition to helping ensure rider effects or whatever else have a chance to occur. I cannot state enough how useful and versatile of an ability this is, and it's one that makes the party around you better, so they'll love you for it. The only sad part is that it's limited by your charisma mod, and with this MC option, you need Dex, Wis, and Cha, so it's unlikely to be much more than 2x per short rest. Nonetheless, a powerful ability.

Skill proficiencies. Proficiency in a total of 4 additional skills, double proficiency in two skills, and half proficiency in all skills (and other ability checks) in which you don't currently have proficiency. Expertise alone would make this worthwhile, since double proficiency is nothing to scoff at, turning a nearly impossible check (DC 30) from a best case scenario 10% chance (+6 proficiency, +5 ability, need 19 or 20) to a best case scenario 40% chance (+12 proficiency, +5 ability, need a 13 or better). DC 20 tasks go from a roughly even odds proposition (60%) to nearly guaranteed (90% chance), etc. Use them wisely!

Cutting Words. Reactions are rarely used, and this can turn a hit into a miss, which is some of the best damage mitigation you could ever hope for. It should be noted the incredible synergy this has with Grapplers, as a party member using an inspiration die while you use cutting words on the opponent makes it virtually impossible for the grapple attempt to fail. This also provides synergy for Crowd Control abilities, as (for example) the otherwise unimpressive ensnaring strike is much harder to escape from (after having failed the strength save) when cutting words is coming into play on all high checks made by the target.

Spellcasting. In addition to providing a greater list of magical options, not the least of which is the inclusion of cantrips, which provide at will magical versatility the Ranger sorely needs, it also beefs up the number of spell slots available for use with the Ranger's existing spells. The fact that Bards are also Ritual Casters, and that many useful ritual spells pepper their spell list (Comprehend Languages, Detect Magic, Identify, Illusory Script, Speak with animals, Unseen Servant; Animal Messenger, Locate Animals or Plants, Magic Mouth, Silence; Feign Death, Leomund's Tiny Hut) only enhances the appeal of a versatile and useful spell list.

Magical Secrets. Ah yes, the reason you took Bard in the first place! You get two spells from any list, which must be 3rd level or below, which is absolutely fine since that includes the one spell you would absolutely want to get- HASTE. The other spell can be whatever you want, from the absolutely standout Animate Undead to the useful and thematically appropriate Conjure Animals, if you're never going to hit 9th level or higher in Ranger. Fly, Crusader's Mantle, Elemental Weapon, heck, you can grab Fireball if you really want, the options are varied and fantastic. More on Haste below.

Haste! This standout spell offers a bonus action that can be used to make an attack, among other things, without consuming a bonus action or in any way otherwise affecting your ability to use the rest of your turn. This allows you to equal the number of attacks per round to be equal to that of anyone who takes 11 or more levels in Fighter, and if there are targets adjacent to each other, with Horde Breaker to equal the attacks of a 20th level fighter. In addition, it grants double the base movement speed (great for keeping enemies away or closing in with them), +2 AC (which stacks with a shield, or confers the same benefit while freeing up both hands for weapons), and advantage on all dexterity saving throws. But the best part about it is not actually the bonus attack, as that is not the best way to use the extra action. Rather, you really want it for the Use an Object action. Why? Poison.

Poison is great. It's a huge damage boost, and as a Ranger, you are better equipped than most to obtain it, with Nature as a class skill, Animal Friendship to help cultivate non-hostile relationships with creatures that produce it, Speak with Animals, Locate Animals (to help find them in the first place), etc. There is absolutely no reason you should not be able to keep a Giant Poisonous Snake or equivalent animal around to suit your needs for poison generation, should you not get Conjure Animals and just summon fey spirits in animal form to harvest from when spell slots permit. So, as a Ranger, you should be able to obtain an effectively unlimited supply of it. The trouble is, since it only retains its potency when applied for a minute, unless you have a minute of prep time to get a bunch of poisoned arrows / bolts ready, you're unlikely to be able to use that to your fullest. Unless, of course, you had an extra action, able to be used for the Use an Object action, in order to apply poison on the fly in combat. Being able to apply it to 3 arrows / bolts per turn, while you conveniently have two base attacks with either horde breaker or your bonus action to provide the third, means you can put on the poison nearly as fast as you can let it fly.

Now, should your DM suddenly have the world nearly entirely populated with undead and / or elementals, this will lose a fair amount of its potency, in which case haste will "only" be granting you the stock benefits of an extra attack, +2 AC, double movement speed, and advantage on Dex saves. However, in a normal, diverse campaign world, it will provide an incomparable boost to your damage per round. 3d6 per attack is nothing at all to sneeze at, and at higher levels, raising a Wyvern as a mount is at least possible, and would provide you with a mobile flying platform from which to rain down poisoned arrows / bolts on your foes, and a steady supply of Wyvern poison, for 7d6 damage per attack.

So overall, I'm quite convinced Bards are the best muticlass options for Rangers, for their superior damage and / or attacks per round, for their party centric abilities and utility, and most of all for their versatility. The best thing about this is that you get Haste at 11, which is exactly when the fighters would be getting their 3rd attack, so you're never behind the power curve, always providing a competitive amount of damage even if poison is ineffectual against the foes you are facing, and pulling ahead whenever it's not. The real question becomes, then, what to do from there? You've still got 9 levels left, and you're a full and complete character with a myriad of abilities and great damage output. You don't "need" anything else. But if they're willing to give us 9 more levels, best to put them towards something, right? What options are best for the remaining levels?

Some standouts in my book:
Warlock
You've already committed to having a Cha of at least 13, so it's an easy transition. They have phenomenal at-will utility (such as at will telepathic communication through the great old one), and once you hit 5th level you are getting 3rd level spell slots that recover on a short rest, which means there is no reason you would ever not have haste available for a combat. They also provide one of the best forced movement options of any class in repelling blast, which pushes targets around and offers no save or other means to counteract it. In addition to allowing for the ever hilarious maneuvers like pushing people off of bridges and cliffs, it also helps line them up for horde breaker, and generally speaking keeps them off your back, as well as the backs of party members. Since cantrips scale with character level, you'll be doing acceptable damage when using that, as well. If going this route, as you can get all rituals for up to 3rd level from all classes, it also frees up bard spells to use on other options.

More Bard or More Ranger
Bard is great, and more of it isn't a terrible thing. Getting more spell slots that you can cast for 3rd level and higher spells increases the likelihood you'll always be able to use Haste when desired, and even if you're playing at a table that rules Volley is a single attack, does not allow movment, does not allow triggering on hit effects, and is otherwise nerfed into near oblivion, it's still an at will AOE effect, and provides tremendous alpha strike potential if you have the time to poison all of the arrows being used for it beforehand. There are also those tables where multiclassing more than once is not allowed, so that's definitely the option of choice for such tables. Between the two, more bard is the more generally useful option, but there are merits to both.

Fighter
Battlemaster offers versatility and battlefield control options which are, as ever, welcome. I wouldn't recommend more than 3-4 levels personally, as 3 levels + the Martial Adept feat should grant you all the maneuvers you would really want, as well as plenty of superiority dice with which to use them, and you gain only minimal benefit for investing further levels. Nonetheless, if you need more feats / ASI choices, it offers a viable means of obtaining them, and taking it all the way up to 8 would put your total number of those at 5, an adequate amount by any standard.

Those are my thoughts, what are yours?

[djreynolds]

6 levels of assassin. Auto crit, sneak attack extra skill, two expertise (4 skills) charisma helps for disguise, deception, assassin work. Invisibility and auto crit.

Could go arcane trickster, don't worry about your intelligence cause you're casting utility spells for stealth.

[Psionic]

Self repost from earlier ranger thread on the path of bard:

I've going to save you a lot of my own personal time deliberating this issue, because you will go through all this and either end very disappointed, or finally reach the same conclusion.

Do not do Bard X / Ranger X. The Swift quiver, and either cutting words / Valor tree attack and valor inspiration is absolutely not worth it.

For starters, Cutting words is great, and it is the #1 thing you are trading off for not doing this, it's a great ranged reaction option that saves heads (my first character was a bard, and easily half of his impact was cutting enemy attack rolls and damage rolls just because it is THAT good) but everything else you are getting is pure deception. Valor's extra benefits on inspiration is completely useless to you, and it requires you dealing out your inspiration ahead of time, instead of allowing you to portion it wisely or otherwise save it. Not to mention, cutting words use reactions, which are the most underused action type in the game. In the end, you'd do Valor for the overlapping proficiencies, slight modifications to your inspirations (most of which will go unused or underutilized) and the extra attack that Ranger 5 would grant you, along with some of the best second-level casting options, period. Silence and Spike growth are two absolutely incredible skills, good casting stat or not, and going level 5 in ranger is worth it just for the spells, as if you need the extra attack stapled onto it.

You were right to start. "What to do AFTER level 5 ranger" is both the right question and the right path. The answer is not Bard. It's not Swift quiver. I'll give you the easy math

Let's say you're using a longbow, you're a 15/5 bard ranger, that's 4.5 attacks a round with HB, or additional d8 on CS. Each attack would do d8+5 damage, because Swift Quiver burns out hunter's mark. That's 9.5 damage an attack for 4.5 attacks or 42.75 average DPR (assuming all hit), not counting Sharpshooter options, or crossbow mastery for heavy crossbow (d10, average DPR ~47). Not bad. But there are a couple of reasons why this is deceptive. Firstly, one clear condition of Swift Quiver is that the ammo it produces for shots is non-magical. If your DM rules (as the two I know personally do) that bows provide attack whilst arrows provide damage when enchanted, that would mean your then non-magical ammunition would lose any form of additional enhanced damage. Additionally, non-magical damage is shunted by physical resistance carried by literally any enemy worth fighting at that tier. You can very quickly, very easily find that halved, and it isn't all that spectacular to begin with. I recommend something entirely different:

15/5 (martial) Fighter Ranger is the build I eventually sat on (after investigating several other dual and tri-classing options) because of the importance and strength of the level 5 ranger in the early goings. With this path, you scoop up Action Surge, Second Wind, Defensive Fighting style (+1 AC), Two Extra attacks (first one not overlapping, somewhat sad to waste it but Silence is WORTH IT. IT REALLY IS. TRUST ME), Five stat improvements / feats (as they get more of them than any other class) along with six D10 superiority dice and the die recovery on initiative. Now, for the sake of argument, I didn't include any feats / item properties in the first damage calculations, so recall that whatever could go into the above could also go into the below

Since you don't have the swift quiver feat, Hunter's mark will apply on every attack. And since you don't need to use your bonus action for any attacks at all, you can reset and keep firing if you happen to finish off an enemy in the middle of the string. The damage per attack is d8+d6+5, over 3.5 attacks with HB or 3 + a d8 from CS. Damage per hit is now 13 over 3.5 attacks or 45.5 DPR, higher than the bard who has a full additional attack and there's no ambiguity about the damage type being nonmagical in this aspect.

Now, you also get 6d10's saved up in case you want to have fun tossing around some extra dice. But which maneuvers? Well, it just so happens that a lot of the maneuvers are fantastic for a ranged character. All of the saves can be against your DEX, meaning you'll have a better chance with these saves than most SPELLS you'd cast in your tenure. Menacing Attack is pure dumb, obviously, as what better way to keep an enemy at a good firing distance than to make them afraid of getting close with the Frightened effect? Trip attack is a great way to play supportive while dishing out tons of damage, by setting up your melee allies to have advantage and also manage multiple enemies at the same time. While you're at it, you can shoot the bows out of enemy bowman's hands with your Disarming Strike, or better yet, reposition your barbarian friend in front of his face with your Maneuvering Strike. What you do with your Maneuver choices are completely up to you, but whatever you choose will be ridiculous in the long run, and in the short run it's a flat D10 your can throw on any (hell, every) attack to make yourself a ridiculous ranged threat. And remember Cutting words? There's a maneuver called "Parry" that does exactly what cutting words does (for damage reduction) with a better result (dex added) on reaction. Sadly only usable on yourself, but decent still.

I spent a lot of time deliberating between fighter 15 / rogue 2 / ranger 3, Fighter 11 / Rogue 4 / Ranger 5 but I cannot logistically refute the d10 die, the extra command option, or second tier ranger spells. Ranger spells, especially, I can't give up. But it took me a lot of deep thinking and brain-scrubbing to get Swift quiver out of my head. It is such a trap, I love the spell but it's so not good. >:



I almost went with fighter (or rouge for that burst damage) initially, but I really enjoy spellcasting. Esp for the flavor of this character. Both of the gish options in Rouge and Fighter seemed better if I just did them with no Ranger (which is something I keep running into). For this reason, I'll be leaning more towards a caster based class.

If this is the case, you should almost certainly go for Cleric or Druid. Druids tend to be very casting-heavy and don't really have much synergy with Rangers, but at least in this case it doesn't force you to put points into Charisma, and it allows you to double up under your wisdom / dexterity stats. Clerics are a completely different story. If you are looking for an effective multiclass for casting as a Ranger, Tempest/War Cleric is absolutely the option. War clerics start out immediately granting you bonus action attacks, meaning that if you didn't take Crossbow mastery at your level 4 (or level 0 variant human) feat it'll give you the chance to attack with your longbow three times as opposed to twice, immediately after ranger 5 / cleric 1. If you got crossbow mastery, and are wielding hand-crossbows, that war domain feature would then become unusable in most cases. This is where Tempest domain is a great alternative. War domain contains all the buffing spells, but Tempest domain is made for putting out hurt in a wide area, and lots of it. Their Channel divinity allows you to max out the damage on any lighting/thunder damage rolled (essentially overchannel) and that's at 2nd level. Additionally, they have methods of keeping enemies off with Wrath of the storm + Thunderbolt strike. Not to mention, clerics simply have a better spell list than Bards, forgoing magical secrets. Bards get magical secrets specifically to deal with the fact that they have very close to zero relevant damage spells at 3rd + levels. Essentially you will do nothing but utility casting until you receive swift quiver at 12th~15th level. Seriously. Look over the spell list. It's so limited it's painful, especially in the early goings. Clerics have no such issues.

Now: Specific clarification. Since you aren't looking for level 10 bard for the swift quiver, this will be geared towards your plans.

Inspiration dice from bards suck. Outside of cutting words they are very consistently going to be wasted.

In order to use a die to aid an ally with an attack, they must HAVE the die from you, and that requires you dealing it out via bonus action. They cannot have more than one, and they are not transferable. Meaning, you have to spend a bonus action to give one single ally a d6 bonus on the next attack they need it, and you can do this (Cha) times a day, and only once per bonus action. Cutting words, as I said in my past post, is the only really effective use of inspiration. What's worse, it's completely unusable by you, yourself, outside of cutting words. You don't even have the dice AVAILABLE to use until you use your bardic inspiration, unless you have cutting words.

It also cannot be used for it's damage aspect, at all, unless you're of the Valor bard class. Even then, it can't be used for yourself like Cutting words can (and once again, cutting words is on the reaction).

I touched on their spellcasting in my aforementioned post, but let me touch on it again: The spellcasting bards get is so limited and niche it's painful. Magical secrets is necessary for the spell selection to be manageable. A cleric / druid is a purely better option that overlaps on your WIS casting option, gives you flexibility on roles, and grassland druids get not only Haste, but Invisibility permanently memorized (at no penalty) at levels 3/5 meaning you don't have to sell out your spell options. Hell, if at that point you've SEEN a giant poisonous snake, you can wild shape into it and get a PC to help you bleed venom from the fangs. No keeping along a beast you'd have to feed real food and keep safe. If you want to stick to a caster class, it's Druid if you really need Haste, and cleric's an option if you don't.

Bard's very seemingly open variety of skills is a very cunning trap. There are a LOT of restrictions to be aware of. Don't do a ranger/bard. There are at least six better options.

Edit: While you're right about rangers being in the best position to gather the poisons to be used, what you missed is that the harvesting target needs to be unconscious or dead... Druid doesn't help all that much, but it's still a better option than bard given the situation. It'll make trying to keep one around and friendly much harder. Nigh impossible, I'd say.

[CNagy]

RAW on the whole "magic bow, magic arrows" situation is that a magic bow enables its ammunition to deal damage through resistance/immunity. Bonuses for the bow and the arrow stack, so a +1 Longbow firing +2 arrows gets +3 to attack and damage.

[Citan]

Hi,

@OP
thanks for opening this interesting thread. Before I add my 2 cents, a question? In which aspect, and since when, did they nerf the Ranger? It worries me a bit for one of my player who is sent on playing a pure one...

Beyond that, I'd say it really depends on your goal...
If playing straight ranged attacker...
- Bard up to 10 for additional utility spells and obviously Swift Quiver and/or Elemental Weapon (if you didn't take it at lvl6).
- You could also as a Ranger grab 3 levels of Paladin of Devotion for a few potentially useful spells and, more importantly, Divine Weapon CD (it works on bows by RAW), at least if your CHA is at least 16 (not worth it otherwise).
With that said, I see no reason to go up to 11th level Ranger for Volley unless you go pure striker. In which case your initial Ranger 5 / Bard 6 may be enough.

Beyond that, Rogue and the other classes you listed all offer strong choices. :)
With that said, for one who'd like a versatile, caster-oriented multi-Ranger, Druid seems to me the most obvious choice (with maybe 2-level dips in Cleric it you don't plan on getting high level spells).

I've had a fun concept in mind for some time: Death Rain: character focused on getting high in the sky then fall down on enemies raining arrows. Works best as a Rogue+something for efficiency, but you could imagine a Druid/Ranger/Whatever who Wild Shape into an eagle then wild shape back once above enemies, raining arrows during the fall then levitates himself before hitting ground (or even better, wild shape again and flee to safety ^^^).

@Psionic (sorry to add long answer in same post, since multipost is not authorized)
I agree on most of your post, especially on Battlemaster potency.
However I don't about agree about your critics on going Ranger/Bard. There can be a lot of nice utilities in this build, and you're not forced to consider you're always gonna fight alone.

1. The limitation of "non-magical damage" can easily be circunvened with an ally caster knowing Elemental Weapon or Magic Weapon in the worst case, or you can take it yourself instead of Swift Quiver with the Bard for better versatility (and keeping more levels for other classes).
EDIT: Nevermind, I understood what you meant. Didn't realize that swift quiver forced the ammunition to be non-magical. Meaning that even considering that Elemental Weapon could "work together", only the extra damage from EW would be magical, while the base damage is non-magical. Okay, this is indeed a serious limitation. Unless we consider that Flame Arrows could work on the magic supply from Swift Quiver. This would obviously be a stretch from RAW, but considering it means having both the Ranger and another ally using their concentration slot I don't think it would be so generous (caster generally have better uses for their concentration. Only Paladin maybe, since he can smite anyways).

2. I don't understand the houserule in which "bow for attack roll", "arrow for damage roll". It seems obvious to me that the bow in itself contributes to the potential damage, considering the maximum strength that can be applied to the rope hence cinetic energy stored, which varies with personal strength and bow construction. Anyways, personnaly, I would allow bonus from weapon, ammunition and spell to cumulate unless it's forbidden by RAW (as with Swift Quiver).

3. Your problem with how to use Bardic dice is a false one imo (unless I didn't understand your point). The die lasts for 10mn. So I don't see why a Bard wouldn't distribute his dice to allies before the combat begins, maybe keeping one or two for emergencies. It consumes a bonus action to give them to allies, not for allies to use them. So no more problem. And it respawns with short rest. This is essentially giving allies a free toned down Luck ability each short rest.
And by the way, Cutting Words is Lore College, no Valor college, so no problem of wasting levels on redundant features. :)

4. As for the "very limited" spell list. Well, obviously, purely offensive spells are scarce indeed. How is that a problem?
- With Bard capstone being lackluster, most primary Bards multiclass to up their offense (Hello Warlock, Sorcerer, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, even Druid ^^).
- For other classes, obviously there are better multiclass options for pure offense, hence people wanting Bard want it for skills, Inspiration and utilities. That's what the OP said by the way, unless I'm mistaken.
- Many Bard's spells, while not dealing direct damage, effectively hinders enemy danger in an efficient and flexible way: Hold Person/Monster, Levitate, Bestow Curse etc... It could be even better than direct damage sometimes (ex if enemy troops have healers, or if you can Levitate a sturdy melee enemy which could easily stand a few rounds of concentrated damage).

[Mechaviking]

Personally I´m all Rexxar with Barb 5-10/splash ranger 1-4 :D

[djreynolds]

Psionic Archer. There is forgotten realms novel with tiefling Archer. Really cool build. I think the main character was a priest of Mask.

[GiantOctopodes]

Let's say you're using a longbow, you're a 15/5 bard ranger, that's 4.5 attacks a round with HB, or additional d8 on CS. Each attack would do d8+5 damage, because Swift Quiver burns out hunter's mark. That's 9.5 damage an attack for 4.5 attacks or 42.75 average DPR (assuming all hit), not counting Sharpshooter options, or crossbow mastery for heavy crossbow (d10, average DPR ~47). Not bad. But there are a couple of reasons why this is deceptive. Firstly, one clear condition of Swift Quiver is that the ammo it produces for shots is non-magical. If your DM rules (as the two I know personally do) that bows provide attack whilst arrows provide damage when enchanted, that would mean your then non-magical ammunition would lose any form of additional enhanced damage. Additionally, non-magical damage is shunted by physical resistance carried by literally any enemy worth fighting at that tier. You can very quickly, very easily find that halved, and it isn't all that spectacular to begin with. I recommend something entirely different:


First, thanks for the reply! I appreciate the time and effort spent.
In terms of DPR, following the same calculations, but using Haste + Poison, and assuming a single target (no horde breaker), it would be d10+5+3d6 damage, or 21 total damage (15.5 on a save). Since we're not using Swift Quiver, no worries about non-magical ammo or anything of the sort. In addition, since you're doing both (whatever) type of damage and poison damage, the chance of both being resisted is remarkably low. Even if they are, well, Elemental Weapon is one of the choices for the other option with your Magical Secret. Across 3 attacks, you're doing 63 damage per round.



15/5 (martial) Fighter Ranger is the build I eventually sat on (after investigating several other dual and tri-classing options) because of the importance and strength of the level 5 ranger in the early goings. With this path, you scoop up Action Surge, Second Wind, Defensive Fighting style (+1 AC), Two Extra attacks (first one not overlapping, somewhat sad to waste it but Silence is WORTH IT. IT REALLY IS. TRUST ME), Five stat improvements / feats (as they get more of them than any other class) along with six D10 superiority dice and the die recovery on initiative. Now, for the sake of argument, I didn't include any feats / item properties in the first damage calculations, so recall that whatever could go into the above could also go into the below

Since you don't have the swift quiver feat, Hunter's mark will apply on every attack. And since you don't need to use your bonus action for any attacks at all, you can reset and keep firing if you happen to finish off an enemy in the middle of the string. The damage per attack is d8+d6+5, over 3.5 attacks with HB or 3 + a d8 from CS. Damage per hit is now 13 over 3.5 attacks or 45.5 DPR, higher than the bard who has a full additional attack and there's no ambiguity about the damage type being nonmagical in this aspect.

Bard6/Ranger5/Fighter 8 Also gets 5 ASIs, has its 3rd attack at 11 instead of 16, has 5d10 superiority dice, does more damage (even on a successful save for every hit), similarly doesn't need to use bonus action for any attacks at all, and there's still no ambiguity about the damage type. All of the benefits of a Bard (detailed above) are added on top of it. So, what specific advantages (other than saving you the use of 1 of your 5 ASIs for Martial Adept) would such a build provide?



Now, you also get 6d10's saved up in case you want to have fun tossing around some extra dice. But which maneuvers? Well, it just so happens that a lot of the maneuvers are fantastic for a ranged character. All of the saves can be against your DEX, meaning you'll have a better chance with these saves than most SPELLS you'd cast in your tenure. Menacing Attack is pure dumb, obviously, as what better way to keep an enemy at a good firing distance than to make them afraid of getting close with the Frightened effect? Trip attack is a great way to play supportive while dishing out tons of damage, by setting up your melee allies to have advantage and also manage multiple enemies at the same time. While you're at it, you can shoot the bows out of enemy bowman's hands with your Disarming Strike, or better yet, reposition your barbarian friend in front of his face with your Maneuvering Strike. What you do with your Maneuver choices are completely up to you, but whatever you choose will be ridiculous in the long run, and in the short run it's a flat D10 your can throw on any (hell, every) attack to make yourself a ridiculous ranged threat. And remember Cutting words? There's a maneuver called "Parry" that does exactly what cutting words does (for damage reduction) with a better result (dex added) on reaction. Sadly only usable on yourself, but decent still.

All of this is true, but would also apply to the Bard/Ranger/Fighter.



Inspiration dice from bards suck. Outside of cutting words they are very consistently going to be wasted.

In order to use a die to aid an ally with an attack, they must HAVE the die from you, and that requires you dealing it out via bonus action. They cannot have more than one, and they are not transferable. Meaning, you have to spend a bonus action to give one single ally a d6 bonus on the next attack they need it, and you can do this (Cha) times a day, and only once per bonus action. Cutting words, as I said in my past post, is the only really effective use of inspiration. What's worse, it's completely unusable by you, yourself, outside of cutting words. You don't even have the dice AVAILABLE to use until you use your bardic inspiration, unless you have cutting words.


You seem to be missing both the fact they can be doled out before combat, it's a d8 not a d6, and that it can be used out of combat as well. Need that History check regarding the origins of the artifact? Well, now your roll results look a little something like this:
http://anydice.com/program/618c
But the bigger thing is that you know the result before you use it. It's virtually impossible to waste it, because you won't bother spending it in the first place if you're not even close to the result you want. If you have a target of 13, and you roll an 11, on a reroll you have a 40% chance of hitting the result you need. Adding a d8, you have a 87.5% chance of hitting your target amount. Obviously the actual numbers vary based on the situation, but the point is, a reroll will never provide a greater than 50% chance of success unless the target is under 10 in the first place, and if it is, it's exceedingly likely that you're within 4 of the target. As such, when used in a situation that is appropriate, the added d8 is vastly superior to a reroll.




It also cannot be used for it's damage aspect, at all, unless you're of the Valor bard class. Even then, it can't be used for yourself like Cutting words can (and once again, cutting words is on the reaction).

I touched on their spellcasting in my aforementioned post, but let me touch on it again: The spellcasting bards get is so limited and niche it's painful. Magical secrets is necessary for the spell selection to be manageable. A cleric / druid is a purely better option that overlaps on your WIS casting option, gives you flexibility on roles, and grassland druids get not only Haste, but Invisibility permanently memorized (at no penalty) at levels 3/5 meaning you don't have to sell out your spell options. Hell, if at that point you've SEEN a giant poisonous snake, you can wild shape into it and get a PC to help you bleed venom from the fangs. No keeping along a beast you'd have to feed real food and keep safe. If you want to stick to a caster class, it's Druid if you really need Haste, and cleric's an option if you don't.

A Druid is certainly a viable option! Grassland Druid is indeed a great find, thanks for that. However, you lose out on the Expertise, Cutting Words, Bardic Inspiration, and skill proficiencies, so it offers Less versatility, not more. If transforming into other creatures is really important to you, you can grab Polymorph as your other magical secret, and have a far greater variety of choices available than Wild Shape. Certainly you get a wider variety of spells known, but there is significant overlap with the Ranger spell list, so the disparity is not as wide as it seems. Certainly, after Bard, Druid seems like the next best option, but in my opinion Bard still has the edge.



Bard's very seemingly open variety of skills is a very cunning trap. There are a LOT of restrictions to be aware of. Don't do a ranger/bard. There are at least six better options.

Edit: While you're right about rangers being in the best position to gather the poisons to be used, what you missed is that the harvesting target needs to be unconscious or dead... Druid doesn't help all that much, but it's still a better option than bard given the situation. It'll make trying to keep one around and friendly much harder. Nigh impossible, I'd say.
While asleep, you are unconscious. Just gather from them while they're sleeping. If your DM is convinced that creatures are not unconscious while they sleep, first that's crazy, and second the spell Sleep puts an end to that debate right quick. However, you do point out why Druids can't have venom harvested from them. They revert upon meeting the conditions necessary to harvest. However, Druids do have Animal Friendship, Locate Animals and Plants, and all the other things Rangers have. Kinda a moot point in this case, since the premise is that you already have Ranger, but the point remains they certainly are not Inferior to Rangers for harvesting poison.

Edit:

6 levels of assassin. Auto crit, sneak attack extra skill, two expertise (4 skills) charisma helps for disguise, deception, assassin work. Invisibility and auto crit.

Could go arcane trickster, don't worry about your intelligence cause you're casting utility spells for stealth.

I've been going back and forth in my mind regarding this. Assassin fits perfectly with the poison use theme, and with the added damage, has fantastic alpha strike potential. On the other hand, the sneak attack damage (which would only reach 3d6) is only applied to one of the attacks, and the current ruling is that poison damage does not crit, so it's not as large of a damage increase as it would first appear. Still, certainly thematically appropriate and awesome! I like it!

[CNagy]

If going the Assassin route, I would up the number of Ranger levels to 11. Assassinate, by RAW, turns Volley into a murder-gallery if you can set up an ambush.

[Psionic]

Hi,

2. I don't understand the houserule in which "bow for attack roll", "arrow for damage roll". It seems obvious to me that the bow in itself contributes to the potential damage, considering the maximum strength that can be applied to the rope hence cinetic energy stored, which varies with personal strength and bow construction. Anyways, personnaly, I would allow bonus from weapon, ammunition and spell to cumulate unless it's forbidden by RAW (as with Swift Quiver).

It's just been a general houserule since 3e, arrows used to be the damage component, while bows were the attack component (unless you had a magical bow that created it's own magical arrows, or a bow with the "mighty" property [AKA strength mod bonus damage] to circumvent that) so losing your arrow bonus means losing your ability to penetrate magical defenses unless the bow covered it otherwise.

That's no longer the actual rules in D&D (bows do everything now) but I wouldn't be surprised if many still had them separated in the above manner. That's why I mentioned it.

That's not the only reason though, why swift quiver / haste is bad for a Ranger (unless you have poison as aforementioned). Casting either spell = you lose your hunter's mark, which with a 15/5 fighter/ranger is enough to sink the swift quiver's damage in a 15/5 bard/ranger setup.


3. Your problem with how to use Bardic dice is a false one imo (unless I didn't understand your point). The die lasts for 10mn. So I don't see why a Bard wouldn't distribute his dice to allies before the combat begins, maybe keeping one or two for emergencies. It consumes a bonus action to give them to allies, not for allies to use them. So no more problem. And it respawns with short rest. This is essentially giving allies a free toned down Luck ability each short rest.
And by the way, Cutting Words is Lore College, no Valor college, so no problem of wasting levels on redundant features. :)

I'm aware. First off, allow me to point out that I clarified how good cutting words was, and specified how it was part of Lore bard. The problems with inspiration dice are as follows:

1. You personally cannot use them. You can give them out to allies, but not to yourself. Further, everytime you do it costs you a bonus action (remember that you already have an on-bonus action tool, actually a couple of them from Ranger's spell list alone). Applying it ahead of time can help solve the problem, but in cases where you are ambushed or otherwise unprepared for combat, the slowness of application will mean you never catch up with the rounds. The action budget for bards is just really restrictive and it limits their general options even given their versatility.
2. Cutting words will be something you use CONSTANTLY to screw with your enemies, but it won't last, and it'll eat up your die pool quick. Eventually, you'll stop handing out inspiration simply because cutting words is so good that you want as many chances to use it as possible.
3. Giving your allies miniature luck feature is good, but giving your enemies what is essentially disadvantage on a lot of different options (on your reaction, which you'll never use, because you're a bard) will (almost) always be better.
4. As great as all of this seems:

Bless
1st-level enchantment
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 30 feet
Components: V, S, M (a sprinkling of holy water)
Duration: Concentration, up to 1 minute
You bless up to three creatures of your choice within range. Whenever a target makes an attack roll or a saving throw before the spell ends, the target can roll a d4 and add the number rolled to the attack roll or saving throw.
At Higher Levels. When you cast this spell using a spell slot of 2nd level or higher, you can target one additional creature for each slot level above 1st.

One die size lower, but applies on EVERY attack roll, and EVERY saving throw (which in combat is almost everything). Inspiration will give you (at max) five buff rolls over 1~5 rounds, depending on how they were applied. Bless adds a d4 to every roll made by X members for 10 rounds. Bless is just better than Inspiration in it's base state, and better yet, it's usable on yourself.


4. As for the "very limited" spell list. Well, obviously, purely offensive spells are scarce indeed. How is that a problem?
- With Bard capstone being lackluster, most primary Bards multiclass to up their offense (Hello Warlock, Sorcerer, Fighter, Paladin, Rogue, even Druid ^^).
- For other classes, obviously there are better multiclass options for pure offense, hence people wanting Bard want it for skills, Inspiration and utilities. That's what the OP said by the way, unless I'm mistaken.
- Many Bard's spells, while not dealing direct damage, effectively hinders enemy danger in an efficient and flexible way: Hold Person/Monster, Levitate, Bestow Curse etc... It could be even better than direct damage sometimes (ex if enemy troops have healers, or if you can Levitate a sturdy melee enemy which could easily stand a few rounds of concentrated damage).

It's nice, until you start reaching higher levels. In this time I've already played through a campaign with a pure bard, reaching level 20. (we started at level 5, to be fair) and it's pretty horrific how little the spell list rewards you for reaching spell caps. I can't express it in words, because I've experienced it. About four times, I specifically reached a new spellcasting level, and took one of my options back to an earlier level just for the basic stuff I needed to succeed (went back and got lesser restoration, then greater restoration, which I then re-purposed the fourth level spell I spent on lesser restoration into confusion, then Mass cure wounds instead of my fabulous alternative sixth-level spells, then I repurposed one of my two eighth level spells for Teleport) just because you get less options and less choices.

A different campaign will probably call for a different spell loadout, and in some campaigns this spell list may succeed. But not many.

[GiantOctopodes]

Hi,

@OP
thanks for opening this interesting thread. Before I add my 2 cents, a question? In which aspect, and since when, did they nerf the Ranger? It worries me a bit for one of my player who is sent on playing a pure one...

Beyond that, I'd say it really depends on your goal...
If playing straight ranged attacker...
- Bard up to 10 for additional utility spells and obviously Swift Quiver and/or Elemental Weapon (if you didn't take it at lvl6).
- You could also as a Ranger grab 3 levels of Paladin of Devotion for a few potentially useful spells and, more importantly, Divine Weapon CD (it works on bows by RAW), at least if your CHA is at least 16 (not worth it otherwise).
With that said, I see no reason to go up to 11th level Ranger for Volley unless you go pure striker. In which case your initial Ranger 5 / Bard 6 may be enough.

Beyond that, Rogue and the other classes you listed all offer strong choices. :)
With that said, for one who'd like a versatile, caster-oriented multi-Ranger, Druid seems to me the most obvious choice (with maybe 2-level dips in Cleric it you don't plan on getting high level spells).

I've had a fun concept in mind for some time: Death Rain: character focused on getting high in the sky then fall down on enemies raining arrows. Works best as a Rogue+something for efficiency, but you could imagine a Druid/Ranger/Whatever who Wild Shape into an eagle then wild shape back once above enemies, raining arrows during the fall then levitates himself before hitting ground (or even better, wild shape again and flee to safety ^^^).


The "nerf" to Ranger is simply that at some tables, it is believed volley and whirlwind are single attacks (and thus no movement between them) and furthermore due to their interpretation of the rules, don't trigger on-hit effects such as entangling strike et all whatsoever. Now, there are *many* threads covering that topic at the moment, and that's not what this thread is about, so if you wish to know more or discuss that particular topic further, I'd encourage you to find your way over to one of those threads, basically every thread on whirlwind has a rehash of the same debate atm, please keep it out of here, thanks!

Swift Quiver is not as good as haste, as it provides the same max possible benefit (one additional attack) to crossbow wielders, while necessitating using your bonus action for attacks (precluding using it for things like lightning arrow), and providing none of the ancillary benefits, such as +2 AC, double movement speed, or advantage on dex saves. It also uses a higher slot, so I wouldn't go Bard 10 for that one in particular. Now, the only case it would be useful is if your DM ruled that since the ammo is replaced by similar ammo, a poisoned arrow was replaced by another poisoned arrow. In that case, getting max 5 attacks per turn with two auto poisoned, that has merits. However, I find that particular ruling to be unlikely, no matter how much it might help balance swift quiver and make it worthwhile.

The Death Rain concept sounds awesome! Now that is a great use of Wild Shape, and running Ranger 5 / Druid 8+ would allow you to pull that off quite effectively. Honestly I think Fighter would be better than Rogue to add in, for the simple reason of Action Surge. Getting in a second action is not to be underestimated for alpha strike potential, and since poisoned arrows are not exposed to atmosphere while wild shaped into your form, you can pre-poison a bunch of arrows, wild shape, fly over, transform, dual volley, wild shape back and be gone. I'm imagining a Ranger 11/ Druid 8 / Fighter 1 build for that, and in my mind's eye, it's awesome.

[Citan]

The "nerf" to Ranger is simply that at some tables, it is believed volley and whirlwind are single attacks (and thus no movement between them) and furthermore due to their interpretation of the rules, don't trigger on-hit effects such as entangling strike et all whatsoever. Now, there are *many* threads covering that topic at the moment, and that's not what this thread is about, so if you wish to know more or discuss that particular topic further, I'd encourage you to find your way over to one of those threads, basically every thread on whirlwind has a rehash of the same debate atm, please keep it out of here, thanks!

The Death Rain concept sounds awesome! Now that is a great use of Wild Shape, and running Ranger 5 / Druid 8+ would allow you to pull that off quite effectively. Honestly I think Fighter would be better than Rogue to add in, for the simple reason of Action Surge. Getting in a second action is not to be underestimated for alpha strike potential, and since poisoned arrows are not exposed to atmosphere while wild shaped into your form, you can pre-poison a bunch of arrows, wild shape, fly over, transform, dual volley, wild shape back and be gone. I'm imagining a Ranger 11/ Druid 8 / Fighter 1 build for that, and in my mind's eye, it's awesome.
Noted about the "nerf" question (although I'm personnally in the party of those finding this the legitimate reading, but well, lets keep this for those threads ^^).

For my Death Rain concept, I was telling Rogue because of Assassin Archetype. Not necessarily going full Rogue (because SA applies only once per turn so on one enemy only... Unless you use the "extensive" rule on Volley ;)).

Note however that your proposition doesn't hold more than mine (since Ranger 11 required for Volley, Druid 8 for flying WS) since Fighter gets its Action Surge on lvl2. ^^

I was actually thinking of making this concept viable with a low-level (4) Moon Druid by applying several house-rules (with second being maybe redundant):
- only flying creatures with CR 0;
- other WS limited to 1/2 at lvl4;
- no other action than Move when WS;
In order to keep a similar balance to the one of RAW rules, and could be justified as such: Druid spent all his time mastering the use of wings from a specific beast instead of honing global shaping skills.
Thus opening 4 other levels (for example, 3 Assassin 2 Fighter for the best of the worlds opening nova ;)).

Note though that another way to make a similar combat playstyle would be swapping Ranger for Fighter, or just going Arakocra, but I find this much less original and funny than the WS > arrows rain > WS trick. ^^

[tieren]

15/5 (martial) Fighter Ranger is the build I eventually sat on (after investigating several other dual and tri-classing options) because of the importance and strength of the level 5 ranger in the early goings. With this path, you scoop up Action Surge, Second Wind, Defensive Fighting style (+1 AC), Two Extra attacks (first one not overlapping, somewhat sad to waste it but Silence is WORTH IT. IT REALLY IS. TRUST ME), Five stat improvements / feats (as they get more of them than any other class) along with six D10 superiority dice and the die recovery on initiative.

I spent a lot of time deliberating between fighter 15 / rogue 2 / ranger 3, Fighter 11 / Rogue 4 / Ranger 5 but I cannot logistically refute the d10 die, the extra command option, or second tier ranger spells. Ranger spells, especially, I can't give up. But it took me a lot of deep thinking and brain-scrubbing to get Swift quiver out of my head. It is such a trap.

I would like to hear more about why you prefer fighter 15/ ranger 5 over fighter 12/ ranger 5/ rogue 3. You lose one use of indomitable, an ASI, and one superiority die, but gain expertise, cunning action, sneak attack, and assassinate. Seems like a good trade to me.

[Psionic]

I would like to hear more about why you prefer fighter 15/ ranger 5 over fighter 12/ ranger 5/ rogue 3. You lose one use of indomitable, an ASI, and one superiority die, but gain expertise, cunning action, sneak attack, and assassinate. Seems like a good trade to me.

Well, the list is long, and ASI is the prominent reason. But in addition to what you listed, you miss out on Relentless and two additional maneuvers (which are just generally useful) along with the extra hit die size (but really that's not a big deal). To make a very long story short, I wanted the feature / stats from ASI more than I wanted the sneak attack, because a lot of good features are available for this kind of build (Crossbow Master, Lucky, Sharpshooter are things I consider absolutely core, but you can go for things like Resilient to pick up important saving throw proficiencies, Mobile, because everyone likes going faster, or even Martial adept to pick up a seventh d10 and your ELEVENTH maneuver) and personally, I found the need to gain one of these extra bonuses / feats to round out my character more appealing than the Assassin branch.

If you end up with pretty decent or average stats, starting out with a 16 in Dex and a 14 in Con with some average other stats before race selection, you're gonna need at least one (but probably more) ASI's if you want to round out your character, and that's before any feats are taken. If you roll with a variant human and you get really good stats I can see someone going greedy on skipping them for the rogue archetype but in my personal experience I don't have that luck. The extra ASI (brings the total count to six) from not going that route happened to be a difference maker for my own build (which is why it's what I sat on).

Hope that suffices as an explanation. Rogue is certainly a possibility, and it was the very last line of thought I stuck to before I changed to 15/5. There's definitely enough there to warrant the decision.

[Psionic]

Bard6/Ranger5/Fighter 8 Also gets 5 ASIs, has its 3rd attack at 11 instead of 16

I don't know how I missed you saying this. Extra attack features do not stack. You don't ever get three attacks with this build (unless you're counting your haste spell) in which case you're burning a third level bard spell slot, which overrides your hunter's mark, and puts you a round behind on DPS. Additionally, you mentioned you get 5d10 superiority dice, but in reality, you get 5d8, a total of five maneuver options (as opposed to nine) and one less ASI grand total (1 from ranger, 3 from fighter, 1 from ranger as opposed to 1 from ranger, 5 from fighter) so you are simply sitting short on potential damage unless you successfully steer yourself into some poison, and I'd be willing to bet the DM would be frugal with allowing you open access to it.