How well would an all-wizard party do, provided they were vampires?

[Trekkin]

I've recently posted about trying to restyle an evil Pathfinder AP (Way of the Wicked) to suit my often morally inflexible players; by happy chance, it looks like they'd rather go more evil than the default setting rather than less.

One of the options presented in the AP is for the entire party to play specialist wizards; I mentioned this and they are intrigued, but none of us have the PF experience to say what such a party's weaknesses would be aside from a lack of healing and a general squishiness.

Another option, and one I wanted to more thoroughly define before presenting it to my players, is that the party play vampires.

I'm thinking of combining the two. Here's my thinking: Vampires get undead immunities and fast healing, which may in some way offset the need for the casters to heal, and they also get to create minions which would in this case make superb meatshields so I can really open up with crazy monster abilities and not risk an immediate TPK. On a more thematic level, the players end up leading great hordes of people from the front in the AP, and I almost wonder if an all-vampire-wizard party with Leadership wouldn't play in a style reminiscent of Ars Magica. My players, by the way, are very in favor of playing a "half-RTS"; they have indicated they very much enjoyed our previous ventures into city- and armybuilding, and I'd like to cater to that. Spawn seem like a neat way to facilitate that sort of problem-solving.

That said, my reasoning is very much based on idle speculation rather than actual play. So, Playground: what's it like playing vampires? What, if anything, would make an all-caster all-vampire party unfun to play?

By the by, the path runs from level 1 to level 20, and there are likely to be two regular players with a third consistently but not constantly able to show up.

[Ellowryn]

If you do slap the regular vampire template on them then you have to take a very good look at both the strengths and weaknesses of the template. Undead Immunities and fast healing 5 are very powerful at low levels, along with DR 10/magic, Resistance cold and electricity 10, and a host of other powerful abilities. And then there are the weaknesses, such as not being able to enter any dwelling without being asked, the rather debilitating vulnerability to sunlight, and the need for a coffin.

Overall, unless you are willing to alter the AP to suit them they will steamroll most of the early encounters while creating a hoard of low level minions in the process. This will even out as they get to mid and higher levels as the path is built around such actions, but the early levels will be broken.

[Trekkin]

If you do slap the regular vampire template on them then you have to take a very good look at both the strengths and weaknesses of the template. Undead Immunities and fast healing 5 are very powerful at low levels, along with DR 10/magic, Resistance cold and electricity 10, and a host of other powerful abilities. And then there are the weaknesses, such as not being able to enter any dwelling without being asked, the rather debilitating vulnerability to sunlight, and the need for a coffin.

Overall, unless you are willing to alter the AP to suit them they will steamroll most of the early encounters while creating a hoard of low level minions in the process. This will even out as they get to mid and higher levels as the path is built around such actions, but the early levels will be broken.


Would it work better if I delayed their access to certain parts of the template until later levels? I could see, say, granting them DR/resistances only equal to their level until they reach level 10.

[Honest Tiefling]

While this party is not filled with vampires, I cannot help but think that this (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?325177-Cattle-Driving-Necromancers-Bizarre-Campaign-Journall) can provide a warning of potential shenanigans. Given past posts, I feel that a certain degree of such is inevitable. TL;DR version is that a group of PC necromancers bascially turn a dungeon upside down and the DM is forced to resort to OP tactics to engage them. I feel as if I really should caution you to have a good mix of CR available to throw at them, so when they get an undead army there's something challenging to fight.

What of going back to 3.5, and gestalting everyone? Vampire one side, Wizard the other. DnD Vampires don't really do this, but it isn't uncommon to say that vampires need some time and/or blood to get used to things.

[jiriku]

If he went back to 3.5, there'd be much less need to make them vampires, though. Wizards in 3.5 can heal at least a little from 5th level onward through summoning, and can heal like bosses at 9th+ level by planar-binding a minion capable of casting heal. And prior to 5th level, belts of healing all around would certainly get the job done.

[Xan_Kriegor]

Just to note Wizards can get access to healing through the Collegiate Arcanist (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/prestige-classes/other-paizo/c-d/collegiate-arcanist) prestige class, though you'd need to maybe change the requirements/flavor a little. :smalltongue:

[Trekkin]

What of going back to 3.5, and gestalting everyone? Vampire one side, Wizard the other. DnD Vampires don't really do this, but it isn't uncommon to say that vampires need some time and/or blood to get used to things.


This sounds like a fine idea; I could rework the template into a six-level class easily enough.

[Lerondiel]

Healing for low level wizards? Gee, a potion of Faith Healing from time to time and they're done :D

[Eldaran]

The answer to this question depends on your group's optimization level.

Wizards are one of the most powerful classes in the game, with a full party of them they can be prepared to completely negate any encounter with the right spells. At low levels a series of sleeps or color sprays can crush a horde of enemies. Summons can cover any melee weakness. At higher levels their access to mass amounts of divinations, travel spells, long range options, army building/annihilating options, and oodles of magic item creation will make it almost impossible to structure a normal challenge.

However if their favorite spell is fireball, and they plan on making some melee wizards and healer wizards, then it should work out fine.

[137beth]

Actually, in pathfinder wizards get the best healing spell in the game. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing)
Well, best out-of-combat healing spell.
Unless you have a vitalist, though, in-combat healing wouldn't be viable until 6th level magic comes around anyhow, and by that point an all wizard party has enough advantages that you shouldn't worry about it.

[Extra Anchovies]

Actually, in pathfinder wizards get the best healing spell in the game. (http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/infernal-healing)

Hm. Interesting. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, it's better wand fodder than CLW is.

Would a wand of Magical Lineage Extended Infernal Healing cost the normal 750 gp? Because that's 1.33 HP per GP, which is an awesome deal.

[Trekkin]

Hm. Interesting. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, it's better wand fodder than CLW is.

Would a wand of Magical Lineage Extended Infernal Healing cost the normal 750 gp? Because that's 1.33 HP per GP, which is an awesome deal.

Well, so much for my worries about healing...

Do wizards get anything to combat conditions or ability drain or anything like that?

[Endarire]

If you include 3.5, ray of resurgence (http://www.imarvintpa.com/dndlive/spells.php?ID=6349).

You could just spend time (days or weeks) to sleep off the ability reductions.

[Psyren]

Hm. Interesting. Thanks for bringing that to my attention, it's better wand fodder than CLW is.

Would a wand of Magical Lineage Extended Infernal Healing cost the normal 750 gp? Because that's 1.33 HP per GP, which is an awesome deal.

I don't see anything that says you can put reduced metamagic/traits into an item, or that doing so will countermand the FAQ that says the increased spell slot level is an intended disadvantage (http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9r9w) for the caster. Such a wand would count as a 2nd-level spell no matter what, even if the caster himself can cast the spell at 1st-level.

As for the spell, it's indeed useful, though detecting as evil could cause issues for you outside of combat in the wrong (right?) company.