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Aquillion
2007-04-27, 10:49 PM
Yes, I know the title sounds funny, but I'm only half-joking. All the other posts on dragons got me thinking... dragons really aren't that tough in D&D. Do we actually need class abilities at all to solve this challenge? So.

Suppose you had to beat a CR 20 dragon with a level 20 commoner. All levels must be in commoner. You can't take a race with a level adjustment (since that's basically the same as having a level outside commoner), but you can take any other race, and you have the usual estimated wealth for a character of level 20.

How would you go about getting the dragon's treasure? You don't actually have to kill it.

Making an Elan and waiting for the dragon to die of old age would be one solution, but I'm sure there are less stupid ones.

Innis Cabal
2007-04-27, 10:52 PM
i dont know what game your playing or who your playing with but ya dragons are a hard thing to beat. A level 20 commoner could not, in any way beat the dragon. Even with items the dragon is going to be stronger, smarter, faster, and better equipped.

Felius
2007-04-27, 10:53 PM
Well, as you didn't specified the CR, you could go for a young white dragon and just kill it front foward.

Or maybe trying to do as the bard done, but with more difficulty. Or maybe even just getting leadership, a good charisma, and then killing the dragon with sheer numbers.

Miles Invictus
2007-04-27, 10:55 PM
The cynical solution is to hope like hell that WBL guidelines apply, and use our wealth to hire a band of real adventurers.

ocato
2007-04-27, 10:55 PM
Luck Blade

Wish 1: I wish this dragon would give me his horde Denied
Wish 2: I wish I had the equivalent of his horde in wealth! Denied (assuming his horde is more than... 25,000g?)
Wish 3: I wish-- *eaten by dragon*

Dragon: Damn, wish I had a toothpick. Granted.

Fualkner Asiniti
2007-04-27, 10:58 PM
... Wow. Good sir, have you ever faced a well-played dragon over wyrmling status? Breath weapon, 100 ft. of flight, Killer powerful natural weapons, Spell-like abilities, and other special abilities. If faced in a place that it has any sort of tactical advantage (Like, oh say, anywhere except a 5 ft. tunnel.)
a Young Adult Dragon could take down your Puny commoner.

Dragon CR's are at least 2+ levels off base.

(Tr-Tr-Triple Simu!!!!)

Inyssius Tor
2007-04-27, 10:58 PM
Aah, that's no challenge. You need to give the commoner NPC Wealth-By-Level

TheOOB
2007-04-27, 11:04 PM
Considering that a level 20 commoner is like a level 10 fighter with less feats, the commoner is screwed. +10/+5 BAB, +6 Saves, 20d4(average 50 hp), NPC stat array(shutter), 7 feats(fighter would have 10).

The best chance the commoner would have is getting an item of divine power, and an item of shivering touch(preferably maximised), after the dragon has 0 dex anyone could kill em.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-27, 11:04 PM
If you permit all rules as written?
Race: Kobold.
Equipment: Ring of Three Wishes * 2
Relavant Feats: Leadership, Assume Supernatural Ability (Manipulate Form)

You know the rest.

On a slightly more serious note, Maximize cross-class UMD, and use the basic Wizard route, only emulated with Scrolls.

TheLogman
2007-04-27, 11:09 PM
Step 1: Use max ranks in Profession (Farmer) to create a huge feast for the yearly/monthly/weekly/daily/whatever tithe.
Step 2: Use your massive wealth for a 20th level character to buy enough supplies to both ensure the dragon will die of constitution damage from all the poison you put in his offering, (Black Reaver Powder looks nice), and that you would not die of poisoning yourself.
This would require almost as much poison as food, considering this is a CR 20 dragon with a +25 Fort save, but, with 2d6 constitution damage, only 100 checks are needed to really have a good chance at killing it, but hey you have time and money.
Step 3: Go back to making insane amounts of money with your huge amount of ranks in Profession (Farmer)

Vyker
2007-04-27, 11:11 PM
Take twenty levels of commoner. Specialize in Craft: Booze and Profession: Barkeep. Use your wealth to throw the biggest, most awesome party of all time. The next morning, while the dragon is still asleep in a drunken stupor, walk off with the loot.

Edit: Dammit! Ninja'd!

Felius
2007-04-27, 11:14 PM
Common. If you are a Barkeep you just need to mention to your clients that there is a dragon in the place X and they will go kill for you.

Jack_Simth
2007-04-27, 11:15 PM
Step 1: Use max ranks in Profession (Farmer) to create a huge feast for the yearly/monthly/weekly/daily/whatever tithe.
Step 2: Use your massive wealth for a 20th level character to buy enough supplies to both ensure the dragon will die of constitution damage from all the poison you put in his offering, (Black Reaver Powder looks nice), and that you would not die of poisoning yourself.
This would require almost as much poison as food, considering this is a CR 20 dragon with a +25 Fort save, but, with 2d6 constitution damage, only 100 checks are needed to really have a good chance at killing it, but hey you have time and money.
Step 3: Go back to making insane amounts of money with your huge amount of ranks in Profession (Farmer)

Mild problem with step 2 - RAW, you know when you successfully pass a save (and I suspect that the dragon might notice the Con damage). Unless the beasty is taking all 100 or so doses at once, you're liable to be very toasty (or totally shocked, or really chilling out, or whatever, depending on the dragon) if you try this.


Common. If you are a Barkeep you just need to mention to your clients that there is a dragon in the place X and they will go kill for you.Except for the teensy little caveat that you're not the one getting the hoard - the adventurers are. And you getting the hoard was the explicit goal of the excersize.

TheLogman
2007-04-27, 11:21 PM
Well, I'm also assuming that the dragon is a stupid glutton/fool of an idiot that's gotten so fat that it can't leave it's cave, and demands tithes to stay alive. And ya, I was assuming that I could escape, and it would eat all the poison at once.

Another idea is to get some awesome type of construct with my Profession/starting cash, and just kill the dragon with that, something like immune to cold in the case of a white dragon, or something else, depending on the breath weapon, that could also function as a way to keep children/trespassers/vermin off my lawn.

Koga
2007-04-27, 11:25 PM
A commoner at level 20 max HP (not counting con mod) is 80.

level ten characters can probably exceed that. And probably have better saves, BaB, everything.

A level 20 commoner is equivalent to about a level 8 PC.

Which wouldn't last a minute toe to toe with a dragon.

Felius
2007-04-27, 11:28 PM
Well, going on the profession way, he could achieve goddly amounts of gold, and then buy himself a few constructs. Maybe a adamantium or mithril golem, or maybe even a colossus. He just need to work for a LONG time to get the money.

Dausuul
2007-04-27, 11:28 PM
Yes, I know the title sounds funny, but I'm only half-joking. All the other posts on dragons got me thinking... dragons really aren't that tough in D&D. Do we actually need class abilities at all to solve this challenge? So.

Suppose you had to beat a CR 20 dragon with a level 20 commoner. All levels must be in commoner. You can't take a race with a level adjustment (since that's basically the same as having a level outside commoner), but you can take any other race, and you have the usual estimated wealth for a character of level 20.

How would you go about getting the dragon's treasure? You don't actually have to kill it.

Making an Elan and waiting for the dragon to die of old age would be one solution, but I'm sure there are less stupid ones.

I see no way of doing it short of extreme cheese. The commoner is relying on his items to do the job, because he sure can't. Now, he could pick up a candle of invocation, or maybe buy himself an effigy tarrasque and try to hit the dragon in its lair (and hope it can't teleport out), but I can't think of any way the commoner himself could do it.

Jacob Orlove
2007-04-28, 12:48 AM
Well, 9th level scrolls are only about 4,000 gp each. Even Gate is only 9,000 gp. A pile of those, used carefully, should be enough to beat a dragon. All that shows, though, is that high level spells are good.

TheLogman
2007-04-28, 01:09 AM
But he's a commoner, commoners can't use scrolls, can they? I thought that was only spellcasters who could cast that anyway. Plus, how is a commoner going to survive long enough to shoot the dragon before being fried, even if he could cast 9th level spells?

Aquillion
2007-04-28, 01:13 AM
Well, 9th level scrolls are only about 4,000 gp each. Even Gate is only 9,000 gp. A pile of those, used carefully, should be enough to beat a dragon. All that shows, though, is that high level spells are good.The problem is that UMD is not a class skill for commoners. That means they can have it up to 11.5 at most. Now, Skill Focus: UMD for +3, and Magical Aptitude for +2, and that's 16.5... You'd need a lot of wisdom to be able to use level 9 scrolls (DC 29) with any probability of success. And don't forget you'll need 19 int for level 19 wizard scrolls, or else you need another check to mimic that, too.

There are other magic items that wouldn't require UMD, of course. Or you could hire someone to read the scrolls for you.

Scalenex
2007-04-28, 01:32 AM
Find an unusually Lawful dragon, challenge it something, and then cheat or twist the words of the contest.

I saw an episode of Garfield and Friends where there an adaption of a Chinese legend. A dragon was extorting food from a village and a cat (aka an Ancient Chinese Garfield) was sent to give the dragon his tribute but naturally ate it before he arrived. In order to avoid being killed in retribution, he bet that if he could eat more the dragon, the dragon would leave and the dragon accepted. The cat ate all the dragons remaining food, so by default the dragon couldn't eat more so he won. It's silly and very Garfieldesque but it's not different from a lot of Chinese mythology where clever heroes tend to succeed where strong ones fail.

Jack Mann
2007-04-28, 01:49 AM
We'll go with a spell scale, I think, for that bonus to charisma. He also puts one of his elevens in charisma (we're assuming worst case scenario, with the tens and elevens all around). He starts with a thirteen in charisma. From there, he puts all five increases into charisma, bringing it up to eighteen. With a cloak of charisma +6 (easily affordable), he's up to 24, for a +7.

Now, he cross-classes UMD, for eleven ranks. His total modifier is now +18. With some cross-classed spellcraft and decipher script, it rises to +22, where scrolls are concerned. With skill focus and magical aptitude, this rises to +27. This uses up most of his skill points and two feats, but that's all right. He can cast anything up to a level eight spell off of a scroll, with no chance of failure. He can still fail on a one with level nine spells, but that's a risk he has to take.

Now he buys his items. These include a scroll of assay spell resistance, a scroll of maximized shivering touch, and two scrolls of time stop. He'll also want a helm of teleportation, in case things go wrong.

Now, he lies in wait somewhere the dragon is likely to pass near. He places some of the dragon's favorite food out (assuming an evil commoner, this could even be other humanoids, but let's assume he's good, and it's a mutton-loving dragon). It's important, of course, to do this somewhere the food source is commonly found, or else the dragon will get suspicious. He hides nearby. He should be out of sight (and I mean completely out of sight, so that the dragon doesn't get that spot check), but somewhere he can be certain of hearing the dragon when it sets down to eat, preferably downwind of the sheep. Once he's certain the dragon is within range (no more than six times his movement away), he casts time stop. Thanks to his UMD score, he only fails this on a one. If he fails, he hurries like hell to try and cast the second scroll of time stop before the dragon decides to figure out just who's casting spells.

Once he's got time stop up, his next action depends on several factors. First, whether or not he flubbed the first roll. On the off-chance he has, he gets the heck out of dodge, using the helm of teleportation. He can try again with a different dragon some other day. If he hasn't, then it depends on how much time he got with the initial timestop. If he only got two rounds, he casts off of the second scroll, then moves out in the direction of the dragon.

He now sees where the dragon is. Ideally, he should be able to reach it with a run action (and he's taken the run feat, so he can move 150 feet in a round). Now, with luck, he has at least two more rounds once he's reached the dragon (if not, then it's time to run again, discretion being the better part of valor). He casts assay spell resistance. Then he readies an action to cast shivering touch.

As soon as the time stop ends, he casts the spell. It's the equivilant of an eighth level spell, but he can get that even on a natural one. He can hit the dragon's touch AC on anything but a natural one as well. The scroll's caster level is +15, and with assay spell resistance, that rises to +25. That'll get him past the spell resistance of any CR 20 dragon.

Of course, if he rolls a natural one on the touch attack, he's utterly, utterly screwed, since it's unlikely he'll survive even one round with the dragon. But hey, no guts, no glory.

Now the dragon takes 18 dex damage. It is paralyzed.

Our crafty peasant takes out a scythe, grins, and starts the coup de gras. He has fifteen rounds to try. And he's got more than enough gold left to get plenty of enhancements to the scythe. Eventually, the dragon is dead.

He can spend the rest of his wealth on bags of holding to transport the dragon's hoard.

Now, granted, this isn't foolproof. It's possible the dragon is paranoid enough not to fall for the trap. But it's got a good chance of working. By the time the dragon gets the listen check for the spellcasting, the commoner is in the surprise round. He's paralyzed the dragon before it gets an action. It might not work, but then again, it might.

Demented
2007-04-28, 02:38 AM
Basically, the same strategy as the Wizard, without the foolproof guarantee. And more style. (Mutton bait! Scythe CDG!) Heh.

Edo
2007-04-28, 04:51 AM
Max out Profession (bartender), or some equally appropriate skill. Bluff doesn't hurt either, even if you have to spend a feat to get it in-class.

Set up a bar.

78% of all campaigns will begin at the bar, of course, which means that you have vast numbers of qualified mooks to throw at the offending dragon.

Promise them "as much as you can afford" if only they could help get rid of that dragon. Remember: if they have PC levels, all commoners look the same. They'll never guess how much you're stiffing them

Ikkitosen
2007-04-28, 08:24 AM
Take Leadership. Get a L17 Wizard. Win D&D.

TRM
2007-04-28, 08:31 AM
No. If the commoner has enough gold to hire all these adventurers then the dragon most likely does too (they both have about the same amount of gold?) and the dragon is better. Dragon flys over to the commoner and eats him (1 full attack). End of story.

UglyPanda
2007-04-28, 08:46 AM
The trick is that bartending allows you to own a tavern where adventurers hang out, not that the money from the skill would let you hire them. It's simply that they wouldn't notice how high your level is since you're a commoner and assume that the reward is only a few thousand gold.

Mewtarthio
2007-04-28, 10:22 AM
But the adventurers also get the dragon horde. What you need to do next is:

Take enough ranks in Profession (brewer) that everyone knows that you can make the most potent of beers. Buy the adventurers a bunch of drinks. With any luck, they'll soon drink themselves into unconsciousness (depending on how drinking is run, and on what sort of defenses the adventurers have, you may be able to speed up the process with some Oil of Taggit, but odds are most of them will be quite capable of making the save. Still, if alcohol is considered a poison, they might not notice the extra Fort saves, and you might get away with it). Once they're all out, coup de grace them all in their sleep. Start with the Wizard. Or, for a safer approach, use the UMD-monkey build to slap them all with some ridiculous Geas, like "Kill every dragon in the world without using any items." Meanwhile, take the horde and run.

the_tick_rules
2007-04-28, 10:28 AM
dragons aren't tough, you sure about that?

Ivius
2007-04-28, 10:39 AM
*Snip*

Bravo. You just win.

AtomicKitKat
2007-04-28, 10:39 AM
Why Constitution Poison? Dexterity Poison would put it out quicker, and then you can just keep shouting "CUT THE GRASS!" as you use your favourite Farmer's Weapon(Scythe) over and over till the Dragon's head falls off.


Find an unusually Lawful dragon, challenge it something, and then cheat or twist the words of the contest.

I saw an episode of Garfield and Friends where there an adaption of a Chinese legend. A dragon was extorting food from a village and a cat (aka an Ancient Chinese Garfield) was sent to give the dragon his tribute but naturally ate it before he arrived. In order to avoid being killed in retribution, he bet that if he could eat more the dragon, the dragon would leave and the dragon accepted. The cat ate all the dragons remaining food, so by default the dragon couldn't eat more so he won. It's silly and very Garfieldesque but it's not different from a lot of Chinese mythology where clever heroes tend to succeed where strong ones fail.

Dragon: I eat Garfield. I win.:smallbiggrin:

Innis Cabal
2007-04-28, 10:43 AM
its threads like this that make people think the game is broken

Annarrkkii
2007-04-28, 10:44 AM
I'd imagine that many of the standard Tarrasque tactics would be applicable here, even with flight. The standard Shrink Item/Led Statue/Giant Hole of Water tactic should work, and won't require spells over 5th level, I believe. That's not too bad scroll-wise.

EDIT: @ Jack Mann, have him pick up a few Luck feats from Complete Scoundrel, in case he botches any of his rolls. Maybe even a luck blade.

Sir Giacomo
2007-04-28, 10:53 AM
We'll go with a spell scale, I think, for that bonus to charisma. He also puts one of his elevens in charisma (we're assuming worst case scenario, with the tens and elevens all around). He starts with a thirteen in charisma. From there, he puts all five increases into charisma, bringing it up to eighteen. With a cloak of charisma +6 (easily affordable), he's up to 24, for a +7.

Now, he cross-classes UMD, for eleven ranks. His total modifier is now +18. With some cross-classed spellcraft and decipher script, it rises to +22, where scrolls are concerned. With skill focus and magical aptitude, this rises to +27. This uses up most of his skill points and two feats, but that's all right. He can cast anything up to a level eight spell off of a scroll, with no chance of failure. He can still fail on a one with level nine spells, but that's a risk he has to take.

Raising UMD even cross-class is a good idea for all non-caster classes in general in case the campaign demands a lot of magic.
Unfortunately, you simulate the LEVEL of the caster, not the spell level with UMD, so a Bonus of +27 will only provide you a casting level of 8 (so up to 4th level spells possible) without a problem.
You could get a circlet of persuasion (gives +3 competence bonus to all CHR-checks), drink a potion of good hope (+2 morale bonus to skill checks) and get a stone of good luck (+1 luck bonus to skill checks), which would then put the commoner's hobby magic UMD skill to a bonus of +33, enough to simulate caster levels up to 14 without problems (all bards spells and up to lvl 7 sorcerer spells). A scroll with greater heroism could drive up the bonus to +35 (8th level sorcerer spells), but that is it, I guess...

This could get you somewhere already, but the spells do not offer the quicken options that a wizard gets. Hmmm...you could try to start everything with a time stop scroll (you can re-try as often as you like with UMD, only with a 1 you have to wait for another day), have a rod of greater sudden maximise for 5 rounds, then teleport close to dragon and take it from there...good luck :smallbiggrin:

- Giacomo

Annarrkkii
2007-04-28, 10:59 AM
You really shouldn't worry too much about the skill check. With a true optimizer's devotion, you can get just about any skill up to inhuman bonuses if you really need to. Grab some psionic Skill Shards for UMD and you'll be fine. Or just buy a custom item of +10 competence to UMD for 10,000 gp.

UglyPanda
2007-04-28, 11:04 AM
An item that adds +18 to your use magic item check costs less than a +6 cloak of charisma. Swapping out the cloak of charisma for that +18 lets you make the DC without much fuss.

Edit: Sigh, simultaneous post.

Jack Mann
2007-04-28, 11:06 AM
I somehow completely missed the part about DC 20+caster level. You're right.

Of course, you've shown how to get it high enough right there. Add in an item that boosts UMD, and he doesn't even fail on level nine spells. I believe there are one or two in the Magic Items Compendium. If nothing else, he can have it custom made for 10,000 gp for a +10 item.

EDIT: Simu!

Copacetic
2007-04-28, 11:14 AM
Okay, I got it. tell the adventurers that every evening he comes and eats some villagers. then just agrvate him with a rock and run like hell to the town. While the fight the dragon sneak back to his hoard and take it all.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-28, 01:16 PM
I'm surprised nobody's mentioned the Able Learner feat yet. Suddenly, all those ranks in UMD are a lot easier to get...

Jack Mann
2007-04-28, 01:24 PM
I didn't because my example commoner wasn't human. As well, it's really not necessary for the build, since he doesn't need skill points anywhere except UMD, decipher script, and spellcraft. He has enough to max the first and get synergy bonuses from the others.

ClericofPhwarrr
2007-04-28, 01:31 PM
I didn't because my example commoner wasn't human.

Oh! :smallredface: Oops. For some reason, "spell scale" didn't quite click in my brain.

Benejeseret
2007-04-28, 05:42 PM
Here's my though

Commoner lvl20 Gnome
Feats include: focus craft (traps), focus animal handling, Wild Cohort (animal companion), Animal Affinity, Born under gibbous moon, Burrow Friend, Able Learner ((others which aid in getting/training animals or crafting traps if they exist)). I am mixing multiple books and sources.
(gives the abbility to spell-like ability Calm Animals/day and roughly +9 animal handle to burrowing creatures.)
Skills: mainly into Handle Animals. Craft Jewelery to make more money and convert the loot to other forms for sale/redistrobution. Craft Traps for the violent method and Knowledge Architecture to assist it all.

Premise: To trail MOLES, or other tiny burrowing animals

1. Non-violent
Gather and train many moles to accompany your high level mole companion (around lvl 16-17 according to Wild Cohort writeup)
Pay druids to awaken them UNLESS awaken leaves a detectable magical trace that the dragon can detect through protection/sentry wards
Train the moles to burrow under a large hoard of treasure. Each mole would have tiny saddle bags and will swap gravel for shiny coins and gems. They will then return the gems/coins to a safe cave nearby and pickup more gravel. Repeat, Repeat, Repeat.
As they are coming from underneath the dragon's lair, spot check is meaningless. Basically they are under the loot at all times. Listen checks would likely detect them....BUT....what would a dragon care if it hears tiny animals around its cave?? There are likely dozens of vermin/insects/and small animals around caves at all times and the Dragon would not give them notice.
As they are trained to swap coin for gravel starting from the bottom centre...there would be no mass loss to the hoard and it would look the same size. Obviously the uppermost layer would have to be left alone to be undetected for long.
Training Required:Ride (for the saddle bags), heavy work to load/unload, and maybe a track/sence to find the loot safely from underneath.

2. Violent
Train the moles to burrow all around the roof of the cave to undermine its structural integrity. Even with as low as a 10' burrow speed in a few weeks with multiple animals the entire roof and walls would be very unstable. Again, even if the dragon hears them digging around what would it care if a tiny mammal animal is "digging a burrow" nearby?
Train the to then return and have them drag Sonic Traps into the overhead tunnels to fill the weakened structure with traps. Then have them all return. You then cause all the traps to go off at once ((hey, I'm a crafty gnome, I can do it....basically a simple rope detonator will all the ropes converging in to be tugged at once. KaaaaBOOOOOOOOOM.
The falling rocks might really hurt the dragon...it might not. But as the most common rock Granite has a mass of 2600kg/m3 a normal cavern of a 10m by 10m dimension with about 1m thick collapse would weigh 26,000kg or over 50,000lbs....most dragons would even have a hard time lifting all of that and would starve to death unless they have a non-somatic teleport readied.
Worst case: Dragon gets out but has no idea why its cave collapse and all of its loot is buried under meters of rock.....good thing you have a swarm of trained burrowing moles to dig it all up :)


Anyway, that's my thought

Bene

UglyPanda
2007-04-28, 06:08 PM
Able learner is human or doppelganger only. Also, awakened creatures no longer respond to "handle animal", they start responding to diplomacy because they're now sentient. I'm also not sure how moles could manage to dig through rock, but stealing the gold from a dragon by breaking in is an interesting idea.

According to Races of Stone, Gnomes can acquire dire badgers as mounts. Mounts come pre-trained with a couple of decent tricks and dire badgers have a burrow speed.