Creating art

[Bastein]

So one of my players recently wanted to create his own art(in the form of paintings) and sell it, and i was unable to find any information on how this is done, i assume you just need a load of Craft[Drawing], but i have no idea on how the pricing should be, if you have any ideas or suggestions, please let me know :smallsmile:

[Elandris Kajar]

According to craft rules, I guess he would pick the value he wanted, you would assign the DC and then follow the normal craft rules. I don't know if there is another system for this, but by RAW this should be it. Maybe you would set the price based off the check. I am not sure.

[Saladman]

What edition? Most of them work off different scales for downtime income.

3.5 says a Craft earns "about half your check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work." Apparently there's no outright failure there, just more or less earned per week of labor. If you wanted to get fancy you could instead come up with some sale prices and DCs and follow the procedure (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/skills/craft.htm) to make individual items for sale.

[ShaneMRoth]

You are talking about the Arts, not the Crafts.

A house rule would be the best tool for the job.

Tell the Player to come up with a house rule using the Craft skill, the Perform skill and the Magic Item creation mechanics as a starting point.

Base it on Charisma not Intelligence.

There must be a minimum amount of time necessary to create a marketable work of art. The Take 20 rule lends itself perfectly to such a house rule. Creating a marketable art work of art should be practically impossible as a full-round action. (Picasso famously drew back-of-the-napkin sketches as barter for drinks when he was short on cash. Those back-of-the-napkin sketches became valuable after Picasso's death. They wouldn't be marketable under any playable house rule. And those sketches certainly weren't masterpieces. Also, Picasso was an Epic level artist.)

Start with DCs for pricing art that are modeled upon the Perform skill.

A DC 10 painting is worth X (X being 1d10 copper pieces, for example)

A DC 15 painting is worth X * 10

A DC 20 painting is worth X * 30

A DC 25 painting is worth X * 100

A DC 30 painting is worth X * 300

It should not be possible to earn enough money to allow a character to sustain level appropriate wealth over time with this mechanic. No single skill, regardless of Ranks invested in that skill, should be allowed to compete with adventuring as a reliable method of wealth accumulation for player characters. Not even at Epic levels.

A painting with a DC higher than 20 is not a marketable work of art. It is a masterpiece.

A work of art with a DC greater than 20 should require at least one level of Bard or a Feat. Yes, a Feat. (You can learn how to paint, you can't learn how to make great art.)

A masterpiece should include a masterwork component consistent with the masterwork rules under the Craft skill. These works of art should require days to create, in a similar context to magic item creation.

I would rule that creating a masterpiece should include an experience point cost, but that's just me. (If you have ever seen a great work of art in person, you are more likely than not to come to view a great work of art as being the closest thing to a magic item that you will ever find In Real Life. And great art is always created at great personal cost to the artist.)

But the most important part is this...

Make the Player do all of the work.

ALL of it.

The player presents a game mechanic to you. IN WRITING. You take at least one day to rule on it, and unless you are completely satisfied with the mechanic, you must hand it back to the player and say, "not yet..." Give feedback, so the player knows if he is on the right path, but make the player do all the heavy lifting.

[noob]

I remember of one player reaching 150 in one representation ability(at level 20) by using moment of prescience,maxing the ability,using 4 items doing +25 who were modified by an artificer for giving different kind of bonuses and his charisma.
He won so many tons of gold it was nearly unbelievable because it is exponential(the amount of gold given by representation seems to multiply by at least three per 5 ranks but I did said it was only 2 for groups of 5 ranks above 30).
Anyway one of the concepts of the campaign was that players did not had to fight and that gold was not the limit.

[Socksy]

Surely it would be DEX not CHA?

[ShaneMRoth]

Surely it would be DEX not CHA?

Using Perform to play a musical instrument is a CHA check, even though it clearly requires Dexterity to play any musical instrument most musical instruments.

This could be made to work with any ability score, but CHA seems like the best fit to me.

[Socksy]

Using Perform to play a musical instrument is a CHA check, even though it clearly requires Dexterity to play any musical instrument most musical instruments.

This could be made to work with any ability score, but CHA seems like the best fit to me.

He said paintings. Being sexy and popular won't make you paint any better.

[Strigon]

He said paintings. Being sexy and popular won't make you paint any better.

No, but that's not all charisma is. It's your general ability to communicate well with people, and make them want to be on your side; whether it's through fear or love is up to you.
Many people think great art is all about expressing emotions and conveying messages, so it should be under charisma.

Unless you think every pickpocket and archer should also be able to paint just as well?

Also:


Using Perform to play a musical instrument is a CHA check, even though it clearly requires Dexterity to play any musical instrument most musical instruments.

As someone with a Dex score of, at most, 6, I can guarantee you it takes dexterity to play any musical instrument.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

As someone with a Dex score of, at most, 6, I can guarantee you it takes dexterity to play any musical instrument.

Although a theremin might take a little more than a kazoo.

I'd just use the standard craft rules as Saladman and Elandris suggested. Maybe tweak it a little, letting him use charisma as the relevant base stat, or letting him role a separate die that randomizes his income from a piece a little more, like somewhere between double or nothing.

That way these rules are less likely to break the game when you get to higher levels (although to be fair all craft and profession skills are pretty underpowered at higher levels, but to solve that you need to house rule all of them, not one specific profession). And of course the player can still at some point get a king to let his friends go by painting him an awesome portrait or stuff like that. Skills that can be used regardless of circumstances to just generate a lot of money are kind of boring, it's cooler if they have influence on the story.

[Comet]

Make the Player do all of the work.

ALL of it.

The player presents a game mechanic to you. IN WRITING. You take at least one day to rule on it, and unless you are completely satisfied with the mechanic, you must hand it back to the player and say, "not yet..." Give feedback, so the player knows if he is on the right path, but make the player do all the heavy lifting.

This is an excellent way to make sure no one ever bothers to do any arts or crafts in your game of D&D. Which, being D&D, might be just as well.

[Djinn_in_Tonic]

I would call this a simple Profession (Painter) roll for half your Profession check result in gold pieces per week of dedicated work, as per the core rules.

This represents the work on a specific painting, knowledge of the tools, colors, and techniques necessary, and so forth. The individual value of the paintings might increase over time if the player becomes truly famous in the kingdom for his work, but that's on an ad-hoc DM basis.

[ShaneMRoth]

This is an excellent way to make sure no one ever bothers to do any arts or crafts in your game of D&D. Which, being D&D, might be just as well.

...

#EvilGrin

[Honest Tiefling]

I would go by the standard rules, until he's made a name for himself. Then, work out a system to increase the value of the paintings based on time spent, the subject matter, and how well the character tries to sell the paintings. Maybe just a base price like 10 gold, with modifiers based on the reactions, such as +50 if it depicts a beloved hero who just died. I would also consider events, such as a patron interested in obtaining the work or a rival painter out to destroy the character any way they can.

I will point out that Michelangelo probably had a very poor charisma score. I think there is an argument for dexterity for the arts that do not require a performance or work in front of people. But in this case? Ask the player how they envision the character and maybe even let them pick.

[(Un)Inspired]

Maybe point them towards Etsy or something similar? Or did you mean that you have a player who's character wants to trying selling their art...

[gom jabbarwocky]

.... Profession (Painter)....

This. It's based on Wis, which is fine since I think you're using to assess the observational skills and canniness of the artist in addition to their craftsmanship.

Maybe they can hire an agent, too, if they are serious about dealing in artwork. The agent probably has lots of ranks in Profession (Art dealer) and Appraise. Having an agent pick up the slack would give them a bonus on their Profession (Painter) roll since they can focus more on the actual artwork and less on selling it, more time increases production, ect. But the agent takes their share too, of course.

[Maglubiyet]

As a prolific painter, at some point reputation will probably come into play, driving his income up (or down). He could get a patron who will pay him a salary or an agent who could negotiate deals.

If I was in this campaign I'd buy all his works then murder him. As a DEAD artist, his art suddenly becomes more valuable. Should be easy to kill too since he's spending all his time painting instead of focusing on leveling up and combat skills.

[noob]

Murdering the artist reduce its production and so you are going to get less money than if you kidnap it and make it produce more and then kill it when it is old.
Also try to get an artificer friend and 4 +25 to craft(painting) items and make them give bonuses of different kinds with the artificer spell and your artist will have +100 to craft (painting).
Then if you managed for not letting people know the kidnapper you might convince people it is secret art made by the artist you kidnapped and say the artist died and then sell at a crazy price those paintings(maybe you are not as much evil as me)

[ShaneMRoth]

If I was in this campaign I'd buy all his works then murder him. As a DEAD artist, his art suddenly becomes more valuable. Should be easy to kill too since he's spending all his time painting instead of focusing on leveling up and combat skills.

I would have the artist Resurrected and then buy all of his paintings off of you at half price, Artist and I then sell the paintings for full market price, split the profits and then laugh at your character as we pass by his cell in Debtor's Prison.

[Milo v3]

Pathfinder now has Artistry as a skill.

[Saladman]

Pathfinder now has Artistry as a skill.

Okay... does it come out substantially different from Craft and Profession, or pretty similar?

[SethoMarkus]

Races of Stone (page 131) has a mechanic for using the Craft: (x) skill for artistic endeavors.
"Use of the Craft skill is intended to represent trades and
arts ranging from alchemy to gemcutting, painting to weaponsmithing.
Anything you make or use has its basis in the
Craft skill. In addition to concrete goods, Craft covers artistic
endeavors such as writing and musical composition."

It seems to be more for writing poetry, epics, songs, and plays, but there's no reason it couldn't be used for other artwork such as paintings or statues. Although the skill DC seems to be based on the worth of the finished product, so you would have to work backwards a little bit. Rather than roll a die to see how well the painting turned out, decide how good the finished product will be when you start and then roll to see how long it takes... Though that can easily be adapted as well, I think.